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If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?

 
DGN
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01/14/2013 01:22 PM

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If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
" He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens." Col 1:13
CelestialMaiden

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01/14/2013 02:26 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
" He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens." Col 1:13
 Quoting: DGN


here is something to consider anyway


"For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, the One who firmly established it, who DID NOT CREATE IT SIMPLY FOR NOTHING, WHO FORMED IT EVEN TO BE INHABITED: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else"- Isaiah 45:18

if Christ didn't provide the ransom, then would this scripture lose its meaning? Good question you asked
Anonymous Coward
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01/14/2013 02:39 PM
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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens." Col 1:13


These words as most so called christians believe are inspired words are not. He didn't have to die to save us.

We need to have faith that his love is in us and we are spiritual being
that can and will have his help for our spiritual journey. Yes we need to repent and ask for forgiveness but his love is always there.
Anonymous Coward
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01/14/2013 02:42 PM
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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
We would be the ones that make the choice to reject his love then after a time when that person who does that decides to never ever want Gods love and just his own way then a decision will be made.
IAMIAM

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01/14/2013 02:43 PM
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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens." Col 1:13


These words as most so called christians believe are inspired words are not. He didn't have to die to save us.

We need to have faith that his love is in us and we are spiritual being
that can and will have his help for our spiritual journey. Yes we need to repent and ask for forgiveness but his love is always there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15534724



Thread: Chains

Have you the strength to break them?
Anonymous Coward
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01/14/2013 02:49 PM
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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11
DGN (OP)
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01/14/2013 06:50 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens." Col 1:13


These words as most so called christians believe are inspired words are not. He didn't have to die to save us.

We need to have faith that his love is in us and we are spiritual being
that can and will have his help for our spiritual journey. Yes we need to repent and ask for forgiveness but his love is always there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15534724


The question is.... is ours?
" For the one whom God sent forth speaks the sayings of God, for he does not give the spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." Jo3:34
Anonymous Coward
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01/14/2013 06:56 PM
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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
God wouldn't have given up. He would have sent another perfect creation of His to replace Adam. A perfect life was needed to replace another perfect life. But Jesus did it thankfully so no one else(angelic person) needs to be sent to earth. Now Jesus is our father(adopted father) instead of Adam who sold his children to the devil(and sickness and death).
IAMIAM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
iamwith
Thread: Chains

Have you the strength to break them?
DGN (OP)
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01/14/2013 07:00 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
God wouldn't have given up. He would have sent another perfect creation of His to replace Adam. A perfect life was needed to replace another perfect life. But Jesus did it thankfully so no one else(angelic person) needs to be sent to earth. Now Jesus is our father(adopted father) instead of Adam who sold his children to the devil(and sickness and death).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1550123


Good post.
applause
Ohwow!

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01/20/2013 06:32 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
God wouldn't have given up. He would have sent another perfect creation of His to replace Adam. A perfect life was needed to replace another perfect life. But Jesus did it thankfully so no one else(angelic person) needs to be sent to earth. Now Jesus is our father(adopted father) instead of Adam who sold his children to the devil(and sickness and death).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1550123


Good post.
applause
 Quoting: DGN


Wrong. Jesus is God. There would have been no other to send. God does not fail. His Word never fails. Jesus is the Word of God. You ask amiss, and you ponder Jesus as a mere created being, and if it were so that He were, He could never have delivered a fallen creation by His shed blood, for all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

We may fall short, but not Jesus. Your outlook on Him as replaceable as if He were a mere dirt man I find disgusting.
Jesus could not sin, but we all are of sin, born in it. He is the promised Messiah in Genesis and the product of Heaven where the decision was made before the foundation of the world, that He would ransom those that are His, given to Him by the Father, for not all are His. As He so chooses. He suffered a real death that those that are His might live to eternity. This is not a game and a "what if". This world is soon to be destroyed by the revealing of Jesus from Heaven, and those that think maybe there is another way or another perfect "created being' are not His, for He is God. inseperable, yet one. This truth is from Heaven and it doesn't come from human reasoning, it comes from God and his preserved Word, our life is in Him, our hope is in Him, all that is created, is for Him and about Him. Your role in this matter determines your eternal destiny. Just as your being born didn't involve your input, your calling will be of Him, not your ambition to logically come to the conclusion that there is another way or another hope, or that Jesus if failed, could include a plan B. There is no plan B. You are either in or your out, and even then, you didn't come to Him unless He first called you, fallen that we are.
CelestialMaiden

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01/20/2013 07:27 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
God wouldn't have given up. He would have sent another perfect creation of His to replace Adam. A perfect life was needed to replace another perfect life. But Jesus did it thankfully so no one else(angelic person) needs to be sent to earth. Now Jesus is our father(adopted father) instead of Adam who sold his children to the devil(and sickness and death).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1550123


Good post.
applause
 Quoting: DGN


Wrong. Jesus is God. There would have been no other to send. God does not fail. His Word never fails. Jesus is the Word of God. You ask amiss, and you ponder Jesus as a mere created being, and if it were so that He were, He could never have delivered a fallen creation by His shed blood, for all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

We may fall short, but not Jesus. Your outlook on Him as replaceable as if He were a mere dirt man I find disgusting.
Jesus could not sin, but we all are of sin, born in it. He is the promised Messiah in Genesis and the product of Heaven where the decision was made before the foundation of the world, that He would ransom those that are His, given to Him by the Father, for not all are His. As He so chooses. He suffered a real death that those that are His might live to eternity. This is not a game and a "what if". This world is soon to be destroyed by the revealing of Jesus from Heaven, and those that think maybe there is another way or another perfect "created being' are not His, for He is God. inseperable, yet one. This truth is from Heaven and it doesn't come from human reasoning, it comes from God and his preserved Word, our life is in Him, our hope is in Him, all that is created, is for Him and about Him. Your role in this matter determines your eternal destiny. Just as your being born didn't involve your input, your calling will be of Him, not your ambition to logically come to the conclusion that there is another way or another hope, or that Jesus if failed, could include a plan B. There is no plan B. You are either in or your out, and even then, you didn't come to Him unless He first called you, fallen that we are.
 Quoting: Ohwow!





Obviously, God had complete confidence that his only-begotten Son would remain faithful in giving his life in behalf of the human race. His choice in sending him rather than any other angel reveals that. Non-the-less- Christ WAS a free moral agent, as are all of God's intelligent creations. He had the right to continue living on the earth forever because he remained sinless, but he forfeited that to do his Father's will.

"In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE from the things he suffered; and after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."-Hebrews 5:7-9
Ohwow!

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01/20/2013 08:46 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
God wouldn't have given up. He would have sent another perfect creation of His to replace Adam. A perfect life was needed to replace another perfect life. But Jesus did it thankfully so no one else(angelic person) needs to be sent to earth. Now Jesus is our father(adopted father) instead of Adam who sold his children to the devil(and sickness and death).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1550123


Good post.
applause
 Quoting: DGN


Wrong. Jesus is God. There would have been no other to send. God does not fail. His Word never fails. Jesus is the Word of God. You ask amiss, and you ponder Jesus as a mere created being, and if it were so that He were, He could never have delivered a fallen creation by His shed blood, for all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

We may fall short, but not Jesus. Your outlook on Him as replaceable as if He were a mere dirt man I find disgusting.
Jesus could not sin, but we all are of sin, born in it. He is the promised Messiah in Genesis and the product of Heaven where the decision was made before the foundation of the world, that He would ransom those that are His, given to Him by the Father, for not all are His. As He so chooses. He suffered a real death that those that are His might live to eternity. This is not a game and a "what if". This world is soon to be destroyed by the revealing of Jesus from Heaven, and those that think maybe there is another way or another perfect "created being' are not His, for He is God. inseperable, yet one. This truth is from Heaven and it doesn't come from human reasoning, it comes from God and his preserved Word, our life is in Him, our hope is in Him, all that is created, is for Him and about Him. Your role in this matter determines your eternal destiny. Just as your being born didn't involve your input, your calling will be of Him, not your ambition to logically come to the conclusion that there is another way or another hope, or that Jesus if failed, could include a plan B. There is no plan B. You are either in or your out, and even then, you didn't come to Him unless He first called you, fallen that we are.
 Quoting: Ohwow!





Obviously, God had complete confidence that his only-begotten Son would remain faithful in giving his life in behalf of the human race. His choice in sending him rather than any other angel reveals that. Non-the-less- Christ WAS a free moral agent, as are all of God's intelligent creations. He had the right to continue living on the earth forever because he remained sinless, but he forfeited that to do his Father's will.

"In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE from the things he suffered; and after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."-Hebrews 5:7-9
 Quoting: CelestialMaiden


Jesus was not an angel, He created the angels:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:3

Jesus was not a "free moral" agent in the sense you speak of. Jesus is God and one thing God cannot do is lie:

James 1: 14: "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin and sin when it is full grown, brings forth death." We can see where sin begins, we a desire from within by an influence from without. We then act on it, first by entertaining the thought then by doing the deed. Jesus was dead to sin on the inside. Jesus was called the 2nd Adam as a man, but had perfect humanity in even a greater way than Adam. While Adam had a choice Jesus could only do what His nature would allow. He was deity and cannot sin. God by his nature is infinite, Holy, righteous, perfect always, at all times. It is impossible for him to do evil.

In the Hebrews quote the perfection here spoken of, is through suffering, he was made perfect in that He is our High Priest, suffering in affliction as those He represents at the altar of mercy suffer. suffering is not an abstract concept of the Lord of Glory. Never has one so sinless been called to suffer on this earth as He. This is not a step program where He achieved sinless perfection, for He is sinless perfection, this is speaking of His inacarnation and His work being PERFECT to save out of this world those that were lost.

And why would Jesus choose to stay somewhere where He is rejected and Jesus informs us this place has a date with destiny - He will bring in the Kingdom, not a bunch of do gooders that are always self serving in the end. Anyone can do good, doesn't take a Christian. Works don't save, only Jesus saves. Works only follow, like fruit in due season.
CelestialMaiden

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01/20/2013 09:18 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
...


Good post.
applause
 Quoting: DGN


Wrong. Jesus is God. There would have been no other to send. God does not fail. His Word never fails. Jesus is the Word of God. You ask amiss, and you ponder Jesus as a mere created being, and if it were so that He were, He could never have delivered a fallen creation by His shed blood, for all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

We may fall short, but not Jesus. Your outlook on Him as replaceable as if He were a mere dirt man I find disgusting.
Jesus could not sin, but we all are of sin, born in it. He is the promised Messiah in Genesis and the product of Heaven where the decision was made before the foundation of the world, that He would ransom those that are His, given to Him by the Father, for not all are His. As He so chooses. He suffered a real death that those that are His might live to eternity. This is not a game and a "what if". This world is soon to be destroyed by the revealing of Jesus from Heaven, and those that think maybe there is another way or another perfect "created being' are not His, for He is God. inseperable, yet one. This truth is from Heaven and it doesn't come from human reasoning, it comes from God and his preserved Word, our life is in Him, our hope is in Him, all that is created, is for Him and about Him. Your role in this matter determines your eternal destiny. Just as your being born didn't involve your input, your calling will be of Him, not your ambition to logically come to the conclusion that there is another way or another hope, or that Jesus if failed, could include a plan B. There is no plan B. You are either in or your out, and even then, you didn't come to Him unless He first called you, fallen that we are.
 Quoting: Ohwow!





Obviously, God had complete confidence that his only-begotten Son would remain faithful in giving his life in behalf of the human race. His choice in sending him rather than any other angel reveals that. Non-the-less- Christ WAS a free moral agent, as are all of God's intelligent creations. He had the right to continue living on the earth forever because he remained sinless, but he forfeited that to do his Father's will.

"In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE from the things he suffered; and after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."-Hebrews 5:7-9
 Quoting: CelestialMaiden


Jesus was not an angel, He created the angels:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:3

Jesus was not a "free moral" agent in the sense you speak of. Jesus is God and one thing God cannot do is lie:

James 1: 14: "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin and sin when it is full grown, brings forth death." We can see where sin begins, we a desire from within by an influence from without. We then act on it, first by entertaining the thought then by doing the deed. Jesus was dead to sin on the inside. Jesus was called the 2nd Adam as a man, but had perfect humanity in even a greater way than Adam. While Adam had a choice Jesus could only do what His nature would allow. He was deity and cannot sin. God by his nature is infinite, Holy, righteous, perfect always, at all times. It is impossible for him to do evil.

In the Hebrews quote the perfection here spoken of, is through suffering, he was made perfect in that He is our High Priest, suffering in affliction as those He represents at the altar of mercy suffer. suffering is not an abstract concept of the Lord of Glory. Never has one so sinless been called to suffer on this earth as He. This is not a step program where He achieved sinless perfection, for He is sinless perfection, this is speaking of His inacarnation and His work being PERFECT to save out of this world those that were lost.

And why would Jesus choose to stay somewhere where He is rejected and Jesus informs us this place has a date with destiny - He will bring in the Kingdom, not a bunch of do gooders that are always self serving in the end. Anyone can do good, doesn't take a Christian. Works don't save, only Jesus saves. Works only follow, like fruit in due season.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


.....sooo...who...was Christ offering up supplications and petitions to if he is God?....why would he need to pray?


And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will."-Matthew 26:39
krosty

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
He gave up before we were even "created".
CE1
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01/20/2013 09:23 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
God wouldn't have given up. He would have sent another perfect creation of His to replace Adam. A perfect life was needed to replace another perfect life. But Jesus did it thankfully so no one else(angelic person) needs to be sent to earth. Now Jesus is our father(adopted father) instead of Adam who sold his children to the devil(and sickness and death).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1550123


Good post.
applause
 Quoting: DGN


Very good.
Ohwow!

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01/20/2013 09:49 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
...


Wrong. Jesus is God. There would have been no other to send. God does not fail. His Word never fails. Jesus is the Word of God. You ask amiss, and you ponder Jesus as a mere created being, and if it were so that He were, He could never have delivered a fallen creation by His shed blood, for all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

We may fall short, but not Jesus. Your outlook on Him as replaceable as if He were a mere dirt man I find disgusting.
Jesus could not sin, but we all are of sin, born in it. He is the promised Messiah in Genesis and the product of Heaven where the decision was made before the foundation of the world, that He would ransom those that are His, given to Him by the Father, for not all are His. As He so chooses. He suffered a real death that those that are His might live to eternity. This is not a game and a "what if". This world is soon to be destroyed by the revealing of Jesus from Heaven, and those that think maybe there is another way or another perfect "created being' are not His, for He is God. inseperable, yet one. This truth is from Heaven and it doesn't come from human reasoning, it comes from God and his preserved Word, our life is in Him, our hope is in Him, all that is created, is for Him and about Him. Your role in this matter determines your eternal destiny. Just as your being born didn't involve your input, your calling will be of Him, not your ambition to logically come to the conclusion that there is another way or another hope, or that Jesus if failed, could include a plan B. There is no plan B. You are either in or your out, and even then, you didn't come to Him unless He first called you, fallen that we are.
 Quoting: Ohwow!





Obviously, God had complete confidence that his only-begotten Son would remain faithful in giving his life in behalf of the human race. His choice in sending him rather than any other angel reveals that. Non-the-less- Christ WAS a free moral agent, as are all of God's intelligent creations. He had the right to continue living on the earth forever because he remained sinless, but he forfeited that to do his Father's will.

"In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE from the things he suffered; and after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."-Hebrews 5:7-9
 Quoting: CelestialMaiden


Jesus was not an angel, He created the angels:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:3

Jesus was not a "free moral" agent in the sense you speak of. Jesus is God and one thing God cannot do is lie:

James 1: 14: "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin and sin when it is full grown, brings forth death." We can see where sin begins, we a desire from within by an influence from without. We then act on it, first by entertaining the thought then by doing the deed. Jesus was dead to sin on the inside. Jesus was called the 2nd Adam as a man, but had perfect humanity in even a greater way than Adam. While Adam had a choice Jesus could only do what His nature would allow. He was deity and cannot sin. God by his nature is infinite, Holy, righteous, perfect always, at all times. It is impossible for him to do evil.

In the Hebrews quote the perfection here spoken of, is through suffering, he was made perfect in that He is our High Priest, suffering in affliction as those He represents at the altar of mercy suffer. suffering is not an abstract concept of the Lord of Glory. Never has one so sinless been called to suffer on this earth as He. This is not a step program where He achieved sinless perfection, for He is sinless perfection, this is speaking of His inacarnation and His work being PERFECT to save out of this world those that were lost.

And why would Jesus choose to stay somewhere where He is rejected and Jesus informs us this place has a date with destiny - He will bring in the Kingdom, not a bunch of do gooders that are always self serving in the end. Anyone can do good, doesn't take a Christian. Works don't save, only Jesus saves. Works only follow, like fruit in due season.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


.....sooo...who...was Christ offering up supplications and petitions to if he is God?....why would he need to pray?


And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will."-Matthew 26:39
 Quoting: CelestialMaiden


He came in the flesh, subject to the same sufferings as any man, see kinsman redeemer in Ruth. His prayer was proof that He came to do God's Will, which was to die a horrific death of deliverance for those that are His. Death of this kind hurts, being human hurts, He did not lose faith, He kept faith. Always and forever doing the
Will of God on this earth to bring in salvation. Is it so hard, or do you think in the face of such death He should have just stood around and shrugged it off? As our High Priest, He can represent us because He Is One of Us after the Flesh, but not in His Godhead. Never to be confused with a mere dirt man.

You insist that He is like you, only He has obtained godhood through some secret knowledge of masonic step program. Give it up. Jesus is God and you will never be.
CelestialMaiden

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01/20/2013 10:55 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
...





Obviously, God had complete confidence that his only-begotten Son would remain faithful in giving his life in behalf of the human race. His choice in sending him rather than any other angel reveals that. Non-the-less- Christ WAS a free moral agent, as are all of God's intelligent creations. He had the right to continue living on the earth forever because he remained sinless, but he forfeited that to do his Father's will.

"In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE from the things he suffered; and after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."-Hebrews 5:7-9
 Quoting: CelestialMaiden


Jesus was not an angel, He created the angels:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:3

Jesus was not a "free moral" agent in the sense you speak of. Jesus is God and one thing God cannot do is lie:

James 1: 14: "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin and sin when it is full grown, brings forth death." We can see where sin begins, we a desire from within by an influence from without. We then act on it, first by entertaining the thought then by doing the deed. Jesus was dead to sin on the inside. Jesus was called the 2nd Adam as a man, but had perfect humanity in even a greater way than Adam. While Adam had a choice Jesus could only do what His nature would allow. He was deity and cannot sin. God by his nature is infinite, Holy, righteous, perfect always, at all times. It is impossible for him to do evil.

In the Hebrews quote the perfection here spoken of, is through suffering, he was made perfect in that He is our High Priest, suffering in affliction as those He represents at the altar of mercy suffer. suffering is not an abstract concept of the Lord of Glory. Never has one so sinless been called to suffer on this earth as He. This is not a step program where He achieved sinless perfection, for He is sinless perfection, this is speaking of His inacarnation and His work being PERFECT to save out of this world those that were lost.

And why would Jesus choose to stay somewhere where He is rejected and Jesus informs us this place has a date with destiny - He will bring in the Kingdom, not a bunch of do gooders that are always self serving in the end. Anyone can do good, doesn't take a Christian. Works don't save, only Jesus saves. Works only follow, like fruit in due season.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


.....sooo...who...was Christ offering up supplications and petitions to if he is God?....why would he need to pray?


And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will."-Matthew 26:39
 Quoting: CelestialMaiden


He came in the flesh, subject to the same sufferings as any man, see kinsman redeemer in Ruth. His prayer was proof that He came to do God's Will, which was to die a horrific death of deliverance for those that are His. Death of this kind hurts, being human hurts, He did not lose faith, He kept faith. Always and forever doing the
Will of God on this earth to bring in salvation. Is it so hard, or do you think in the face of such death He should have just stood around and shrugged it off? As our High Priest, He can represent us because He Is One of Us after the Flesh, but not in His Godhead. Never to be confused with a mere dirt man.

You insist that He is like you, only He has obtained godhood through some secret knowledge of masonic step program. Give it up. Jesus is God and you will never be.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


Yes, Jesus did his Father's will perfectly, even to death, that death providing the Perfect Ransom. God does not die though. So Jesus cannot be God, because Jesus DID DIE, otherwise making the ransom invalid. So, when Jesus was dead, who resurrected him?

"This Jesus God resurrected...of which fact we are all witnesses"-Acts 2:32
Ohwow!

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01/21/2013 06:23 AM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
john 10:18
Here God and Jesus are attributed the same power over life and death. Jesus did die, in the flesh. He is God and yes God is eternal - Just as Jesus is. It is in His humanity that it is understood that death came to Him, just as this same curse comes to all life.
He suffered, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day, to bring in the Kingdom as promised to those that He saved out of the world - which has a destiny of destruction so that His Kingdom will be revealed on earth as it is in Heaven.
I came to do the will of my Father, this will was declared before the foundation of the World.
DGN (OP)
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01/29/2013 07:01 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
john 10:18
Here God and Jesus are attributed the same power over life and death. Jesus did die, in the flesh. He is God and yes God is eternal - Just as Jesus is. It is in His humanity that it is understood that death came to Him, just as this same curse comes to all life.
He suffered, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day, to bring in the Kingdom as promised to those that He saved out of the world - which has a destiny of destruction so that His Kingdom will be revealed on earth as it is in Heaven.
I came to do the will of my Father, this will was declared before the foundation of the World.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


So when Jesus died was he still conscious.... being God?
jdb

User ID: 2426721
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01/29/2013 08:31 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
john 10:18
Here God and Jesus are attributed the same power over life and death. Jesus did die, in the flesh. He is God and yes God is eternal - Just as Jesus is. It is in His humanity that it is understood that death came to Him, just as this same curse comes to all life.
He suffered, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day, to bring in the Kingdom as promised to those that He saved out of the world - which has a destiny of destruction so that His Kingdom will be revealed on earth as it is in Heaven.
I came to do the will of my Father, this will was declared before the foundation of the World.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


Brother, I commend you for your faithfulness!

These JW's will not argue with integrity in the apologetical sense of the word - prayerfully consider when it might be time to shake the dust off from under your feet:

Mar 6:11 And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Truly I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

We take Scripture very seriously - remember our lesson for "casting pearls"!

Praise God for who you are and what you do in His Holy Name!
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
DGN (OP)
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01/29/2013 08:43 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
john 10:18
Here God and Jesus are attributed the same power over life and death. Jesus did die, in the flesh. He is God and yes God is eternal - Just as Jesus is. It is in His humanity that it is understood that death came to Him, just as this same curse comes to all life.
He suffered, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day, to bring in the Kingdom as promised to those that He saved out of the world - which has a destiny of destruction so that His Kingdom will be revealed on earth as it is in Heaven.
I came to do the will of my Father, this will was declared before the foundation of the World.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


Brother, I commend you for your faithfulness!

These JW's will not argue with integrity in the apologetical sense of the word - prayerfully consider when it might be time to shake the dust off from under your feet:

Mar 6:11 And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Truly I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

We take Scripture very seriously - remember our lesson for "casting pearls"!

Praise God for who you are and what you do in His Holy Name!
 Quoting: jdb


That's very king and encouraging, not many are favorable to the 1,000 year reign of Christ, the resurrection, and the healing of the dead and the earth.
"Look! I am sending YOU forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. 17 Be on YOUR guard against men; for they will deliver YOU up to local courts, and they will scourge YOU in their synagogues. 18 Why, YOU will be haled before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations. 19 However, when they deliver YOU up, do not become anxious about how or what YOU are to speak; for what YOU are to speak will be given YOU in that hour; 20 for the ones speaking are not just YOU, but it is the spirit of YOUR Father that speaks by YOU." Mt10:16
hf
jdb

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01/29/2013 10:10 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
john 10:18
Here God and Jesus are attributed the same power over life and death. Jesus did die, in the flesh. He is God and yes God is eternal - Just as Jesus is. It is in His humanity that it is understood that death came to Him, just as this same curse comes to all life.
He suffered, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day, to bring in the Kingdom as promised to those that He saved out of the world - which has a destiny of destruction so that His Kingdom will be revealed on earth as it is in Heaven.
I came to do the will of my Father, this will was declared before the foundation of the World.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


Brother, I commend you for your faithfulness!

These JW's will not argue with integrity in the apologetical sense of the word - prayerfully consider when it might be time to shake the dust off from under your feet:

Mar 6:11 And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Truly I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

We take Scripture very seriously - remember our lesson for "casting pearls"!

Praise God for who you are and what you do in His Holy Name!
 Quoting: jdb


That's very king and encouraging, not many are favorable to the 1,000 year reign of Christ, the resurrection, and the healing of the dead and the earth.
"Look! I am sending YOU forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. 17 Be on YOUR guard against men; for they will deliver YOU up to local courts, and they will scourge YOU in their synagogues. 18 Why, YOU will be haled before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations. 19 However, when they deliver YOU up, do not become anxious about how or what YOU are to speak; for what YOU are to speak will be given YOU in that hour; 20 for the ones speaking are not just YOU, but it is the spirit of YOUR Father that speaks by YOU." Mt10:16
hf
 Quoting: DGN


Hey DGN -

I love you as a person...but not the sin...the watchtower worship - the cult is very, very dangerous and will be culpable for many spending eternity in a hell they/you deny!

By His Grace, my brothers and sisters and I will serving The Most High God Jesus Christ during the 1,000 year reign!

For now, I've dedicated and tried very hard - here on a public forum, multiple times, to discuss the issues with you and your brothers and sisters in arms from inside the chambers in Brooklyn...but you guys wouldn't have it! So it is clear...you are committed to the watchtower, I am committed To Jesus Christ as He Presented Himself...and it looks like neither one of us is going to budge! Therefore...no more casting pearls and (respectfully) finally shaking the dust off - I fully believe that I will (truly spoken with a respectful and quiet tone) be able to stand in front of The Most High God and be able to give an acceptable answer to Him when He asks me what I did to reach you and the others!

Not meant as a "dig" when I say that I will continue to pray for you!

Peace
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
DGN (OP)
Revelation in real time

User ID: 30782865
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01/29/2013 11:12 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
john 10:18
Here God and Jesus are attributed the same power over life and death. Jesus did die, in the flesh. He is God and yes God is eternal - Just as Jesus is. It is in His humanity that it is understood that death came to Him, just as this same curse comes to all life.
He suffered, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day, to bring in the Kingdom as promised to those that He saved out of the world - which has a destiny of destruction so that His Kingdom will be revealed on earth as it is in Heaven.
I came to do the will of my Father, this will was declared before the foundation of the World.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


Brother, I commend you for your faithfulness!

These JW's will not argue with integrity in the apologetical sense of the word - prayerfully consider when it might be time to shake the dust off from under your feet:

Mar 6:11 And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Truly I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

We take Scripture very seriously - remember our lesson for "casting pearls"!

Praise God for who you are and what you do in His Holy Name!
 Quoting: jdb


That's very king and encouraging, not many are favorable to the 1,000 year reign of Christ, the resurrection, and the healing of the dead and the earth.
"Look! I am sending YOU forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. 17 Be on YOUR guard against men; for they will deliver YOU up to local courts, and they will scourge YOU in their synagogues. 18 Why, YOU will be haled before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations. 19 However, when they deliver YOU up, do not become anxious about how or what YOU are to speak; for what YOU are to speak will be given YOU in that hour; 20 for the ones speaking are not just YOU, but it is the spirit of YOUR Father that speaks by YOU." Mt10:16
hf
 Quoting: DGN


Hey DGN -

I love you as a person...but not the sin...the watchtower worship - the cult is very, very dangerous and will be culpable for many spending eternity in a hell they/you deny!

By His Grace, my brothers and sisters and I will serving The Most High God Jesus Christ during the 1,000 year reign!

For now, I've dedicated and tried very hard - here on a public forum, multiple times, to discuss the issues with you and your brothers and sisters in arms from inside the chambers in Brooklyn...but you guys wouldn't have it! So it is clear...you are committed to the watchtower, I am committed To Jesus Christ as He Presented Himself...and it looks like neither one of us is going to budge! Therefore...no more casting pearls and (respectfully) finally shaking the dust off - I fully believe that I will (truly spoken with a respectful and quiet tone) be able to stand in front of The Most High God and be able to give an acceptable answer to Him when He asks me what I did to reach you and the others!

Not meant as a "dig" when I say that I will continue to pray for you!

Peace
 Quoting: jdb


"For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." Ro6:7
Leave the devil torment talk to the devil
dead3 It's his destiny. Rv20:9
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24376125
United States
01/30/2013 10:22 AM
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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
john 10:18
Here God and Jesus are attributed the same power over life and death. Jesus did die, in the flesh. He is God and yes God is eternal - Just as Jesus is. It is in His humanity that it is understood that death came to Him, just as this same curse comes to all life.
He suffered, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day, to bring in the Kingdom as promised to those that He saved out of the world - which has a destiny of destruction so that His Kingdom will be revealed on earth as it is in Heaven.
I came to do the will of my Father, this will was declared before the foundation of the World.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


So when Jesus died was he still conscious.... being God?
 Quoting: DGN


An excellent point. +100
DGN (OP)
Revelation in real time

User ID: 30782865
United States
01/30/2013 11:08 AM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
john 10:18
Here God and Jesus are attributed the same power over life and death. Jesus did die, in the flesh. He is God and yes God is eternal - Just as Jesus is. It is in His humanity that it is understood that death came to Him, just as this same curse comes to all life.
He suffered, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day, to bring in the Kingdom as promised to those that He saved out of the world - which has a destiny of destruction so that His Kingdom will be revealed on earth as it is in Heaven.
I came to do the will of my Father, this will was declared before the foundation of the World.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


So when Jesus died was he still conscious.... being God?
 Quoting: DGN


An excellent point. +100
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24376125


Seems like that would nullify the ransom.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 22924481
United States
01/30/2013 11:19 AM
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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
john 10:18
Here God and Jesus are attributed the same power over life and death. Jesus did die, in the flesh. He is God and yes God is eternal - Just as Jesus is. It is in His humanity that it is understood that death came to Him, just as this same curse comes to all life.
He suffered, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day, to bring in the Kingdom as promised to those that He saved out of the world - which has a destiny of destruction so that His Kingdom will be revealed on earth as it is in Heaven.
I came to do the will of my Father, this will was declared before the foundation of the World.
 Quoting: Ohwow!


So when Jesus died was he still conscious.... being God?
 Quoting: DGN


An excellent point. +100
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24376125


Seems like that would nullify the ransom.
 Quoting: DGN


How that? Only death can ransom for mortal sins.

BTW, I was pointing out Jesus could not have been God if have lost consciousness.
DGN (OP)
Revelation in real time

User ID: 30782865
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01/30/2013 11:47 PM

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Re: If Jesus failed to keep integrity and provided no valid ransom for the world, would God give up on us?
...


So when Jesus died was he still conscious.... being God?
 Quoting: DGN


An excellent point. +100
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24376125


Seems like that would nullify the ransom.
 Quoting: DGN


How that? Only death can ransom for mortal sins.

BTW, I was pointing out Jesus could not have been God if have lost consciousness.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22924481


Ahh. 10 - 4 buddy, gotcha, come on back.applause

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