Geoff Gluckman - Muscle Balance & Function posture-therapy Scam and fraud

I'm curious if anyone has experience with this system, or comments on the premise? I've been reading a thread on another forum about it, that makes it seem very impressive. The basic idea is that many problems occur due to poor posture, and that there are particular exercises that can be done to remedy this. Its similar but superior to the 'Egoscue Method'. I mention in the thread Barret's article where he says there is no evidence to show muscle-development aids posture, but it gets rebutted [see end of thread]. Anyway, I'll reproduce here the main comments by the instructor I'm speaking to of Geoff Gluckmans' system. Sorry its such a long post, but I suppose this is the place where people might find it interesting.

================================================

Here's general idea of the system that I have been trained in. It is call Muscle Balance and Function. The human body has a certain "functional design"- basically what one would consider perfect posture. By the way, please don't think that posture only has to do with slouching and standing up straight. Within our lives, we do things to take our bodies out of that functional design (sports, sitting for long periods of time, accidents, surgery, traumas, what we do at our work, etc...). As a result, postural dysfunctions occur. The farther your body begins to deviate from this functional design, you then begin to feel pains, increased susceptability to injuries, etc....

The human body is great when it comes to adapting. Postural dysfunctions cause your body to compensate and as athletes, we ask our bodies to do a heck of a lot of compensating. However, there is a point in which our bodies can't compensate any further and that's the point I reached before I began this therapy on my own body.

Think of your body like a car. If the alignment on your car is off, you can still drive the car, however, the tires will wear down prematurely and unevenly. You can rotate the tires, balance them, replace them, or try to patch them up, but if the alignment isn't straightened out, the tires will wear down prematurely and unevenly no matter what you do because all that other stuff does not get to the core problem.

Let's say the alignment is off and makes your car sway to the right. Like I said, you can keep driving on it and you can even drive straight by compensating by turn the steering wheel slightly more to the left. Eventually, the tires wear down so much in a certain spot that the tire may get a blow out. After getting a blow out, some people learn their lesson and fix the alignment. However, there are some people who will drive with a blown out tire, letting metal grind on pavement. Those people are really screwing up their cars.

So in the Muscle Balance and Function (MBF) System, what we do is you look a person's body, see the postural dysfunctions, and give the person corrective exercises, based on physics and biomechanics, in a specific sequence to get their body to return to its functional design. The various dysfunctions begin to disappear, you often see reductions or all elimination in pain. It is pretty amazing how the body is able to heal itself when given the proper stimulus.

What makes this postural alignment therapy different from physical therapy, chiro, MD's, is that we do not chase symptoms. We look at the body as a whole. Let's say you have neck pain. An MD would do some tests on your neck and if it is something that did not feel need surgery, they would probably give you some pain killer or anti-inflamatory and send you on your way. A physical therapist may give you some stretches and exercises for your neck, put you in traction, or put some heat or ice. A chiro may do some of the things that a physical therapists would do, but the main thing is they would adjust your neck. A massage therapist would obviously massage your neck. In the MBF system, I would look at your entire body as a whole and I can pretty much guarantee you that I wouldn't give you a single exercises that isolates your neck.

Here's a great example. My neighbor complained about a pain on the outside edge of her foot when she walked. She went to a foot doctor and the MD told her that the problem was that her calves were too tight. He told her to do certain stretches, had her buy orthodics, and made sure she had good running shoes. She did all that, but the pain in her foot never went away. I looked at her and told her that the problem was not in her calf, but rather was a result of everything else abover her leg. I told her to put her hands behind her head, spread her elbows, and squeeze her shoulder blades together. I then had her walk and asked her how it felt. She said that she did not lean on the ouside of her foot and her foot did not hurt when she walked. I told her that if the problem was truly in her calf like the doctor had said, putting her arms in a certain position would have made no difference. Later, she went through an entire personalize program and her foot pain was gone.

Like I mentioned before, look at what causes our dysfunctions- movement or lack of movement (static positions). BJJ is movement. Sitting at a desk in front of a computer is a movement (or lack of movement). If you look at someone who sits in front of a computer all day, your going to see someone with a head and neck sloped forward, rounded shoulders, and a flat back- and your going to see someone with neck and shoulder pain.
So if movement can move your body out of position, then it makes sense that movement can move your body back into position...and that's what the MBF system does. That is why people say that chiro adjustments are "addictive" and that chiro's are trying to scam you by getting you to come in to see them regularly. The reason that happens is because after the chiro's adjust you, your bad posture pulls the adjustment back out of place. On personal note, I think the combo of posture therapy and a good chiro and ART is great combo.

Postural alignment therapists simply give you a personalized menu of exercises to return you to your functional design. The therapist puts together a program for you and it is up YOU to do it daily to fix your own problems. Why do you have do it is daily? In order to counteract all the things that you do every day to mess your body up- BJJ; sitting for hours in front of the computer hunch over like a monkey; sports like golf, baseball, tennis that rotate your body in 1 direction; etc....

Your posture determines the position of your skeleton, all your internal organs, your circulatory system, and your nervous system. So this not only has a direct effect on your health, but a huge effect on sports performance and I will talk about that later.

Let's say you take 2 people with the exact same limb length, size, weight, etc... One person stands with his feet perfectly straight and the other person is toed-out (duck footed). Have the 2 people at a starting point and a finish line 100 feet away. Have those 2 people take the exact same number of steps. When the person with straight feet gets to the finish line, the person who is duck footed (which is extremely common) will actually be about 15 feet behind (if their feet were angled about at about 15 degrees) even though they look the exact same number of steps.

Why did does this happen? Because of physics. For every force, there is an equal an opposite force. The 2 people are trying to move forward, however, the person who is toed out is not generating and equal and opposite force directly forward. The position of his feet is actually generating force diagonally forward.

So when you talk about sports performance, think about how being duck footed effects an athlete's performance. That athlete has to expend more energy run the same distance than another athlete that is properly aligned. Think about how that effects speed.

Let's talk about "cardio". I remember when I was in junior high, we would have to run in PE class. After we ran a mile, the PE teacher would tell us to put our hands behind our heads. Why? Because he wanted to maximize the capacity of our lungs so we could get as much oxygen as possible as we were sucking wind after that run.

With that in mind, let's look at an adult that is slouched over. Remember that your posture determines the position of your organs. With that slouched posture, you feel that your lungs are capable of maximizing its capacity as you do your aerobic conditioning?

There are many more issues when it comes to sports application, but I only mentioned a couple. Postural dysfunctions, like an infection, can become worse over time when untreated, especially when people push their bodies to its limits. Of course old age will eventually effect us all, but you have to wonder how much of the inability to perform is because your dysfunctions have gotten worse as time has passed versus the actual aging process.

The Egoscue Method does correct posture and uses similar exercises, however, the MBF System is completely different in its methodology. My instructor, who created the MBF System, actually worked with Pete Egoscue in the early 90's and was one of the first 4 therapists who helped Pete Egoscue open his clinic in San Diego.

Pete Egoscue is a genius, however, he did not want others to know exactly what he knows. He holds out information, even from his own therapists. One of my students got a menu from a very experienced Egoscue therapist. I looked at the menu and saw that there was one exercises he really shouldn't be doing as it was harmful to his knees. Coincidentally, my student said that the particular exercises did hurt his knees. I re-wrote my students entire menu and he felt a lot better.

The biggest difference between MBF and the Egoscue Method is that MBF is an actual system that is based on physics and biomechanics in its application. The Egoscue Method has no system. I know this because when I originally wanted to learn posture therapy, I took the Egoscue course. The course was so terrible that I walked out half way through and asked for my tuition back. I have had instructors hold back information in my BJJ training, so I knew exactly what the people at the Egoscue course were trying to do. Having gone through that sorry ass course, I can not recommend the Egoscue Method anymore knowing how their therapists get trained and knowing that there is something better out there. My feelings were confirmed when my instructor later told me about conversations he had with Pete and also when I found out how many of their clinic directors were frustrated and felt that info was being held out on them.

I highly recommend people read Pete Egoscue's book "Pain Free" and "Health in Motion". Can the Egoscue Method help people? In a way, yes, because when you have so many people who are extremely dysfunctional giving them any functional posture exercises will help. The Egoscue Method has helped many people. However, if you are going to spend your time, money, and effort, I'd feel a lot better knowing that I was doing a program that was 100% correct rather than only 70% correct.

With posture therapy, we do not categorize exercises like how most people think. We do not do "for back pain we do these exercises" or "If you see an excessive anterior tilt of the pelvis, do these exercises". If you do that, you are not looking at the body as a whole.

By the way, I have found that there are 3 instances in which this therapy does not work:

1. You do not do your prescribed program every day.

2. You do not do all the exercises or in the exact sequences given to you.

3. You do not do the exercises technically perfect.

When I was 19, I found out I had a bulging disc in my low back. The neurosurgeon said that the disc was not ruptured nor was it hitting either of the main nerves that go down my leg so I didn't need surgery. So he sent me to physical therapy. In physical therapy, they basically do the standard thing for back problems- work your abs and stretch your hamstrings. This did nothing to ease any of my pain nor did it make me more functional.
Let me explain why "strengthening your abs" can actually not be productive. Let's say you have an posterior tilt in your pelvis (as if your tailbone is tucked under), flat low back, excessive rounding of the upper back, and rounded shoulders. In this particular situation, your ab muscles are already in a position where they are tight and contracted because of how "curved and hunched over" you are. So in fact, doing more ab work is making your situation worse because you are making your abs contract and tighten even more.

Now the answer is not "strengthen your low back" either. In the particular situation I mentioned aboved, your low back muscles are in a state of constant flexion. This means they are constantly working to hold you up against the force of gravity when you are standing because you are hunched over so much. If you try to strengthen your low back muscles, you are now working muscles that are already working too hard in the first place. Imagine having your arm bent at a 90 degree angle all day and then doing bicep curls at night. That's definitely not going to make you feel any better.

I wanted to mention that people often find tremendous relief from pain right from the start, however, keep in mind that 1 menu of exercises won't fix all your problems. This stuff is good, but it is not magic. Changing your body is a process and there are many factors that you must consider....
A problem that has been ingrain in a person's body for 50 years is doing to take a lot longer to change than a problem that has only existed for 2 years.

You must also think about all that you are doing during the time you are not doing your exercises. If you are given a 20 minute menu, what are you doing the rest of the 23 hours adn 40 minutes of the day? Sometimes you are messing yourself up so much that doing a 20 minute menu once a day may not be enough.

In this method of therapy, we have certain priorities when it comes to posture problems that need to be fixed. There are certain problems that are extremely destructive on the body and those things need to be taken care above all else. So it is not possible to fix everything at once.

In addition, we cannot predict what part of your body will change sooner than other parts. For example, let's say that you have counter-rotation in your body- your torso is twisted in one direction and your hips are twisted in the opposite direction. It may happened that your torso rotation comes out first, but the pelvic rotation decreased much less. In a second menu, we would then address the pelvic rotation more.

A very interesting thing is that many times you will have certain dysfunctions that are so strong that it covers up other dysfunctions. Then when when one thing is fixed, it reveals something that was not seen before. For example, I originally thought I had left side forward rotation in my body. However, I actually had counter rotation. What happened was that my upper body is disproportionally strong in comparison to my lower body. So my upper body rotation "overpowered" my lower body rotation, so it appeared as if my left hip and torso were rotated forward. Once my torso rotation was removed, my hips were "released" by my upper body and then I suddenly saw rotation in my hips in the other direction.

Personally, I believe I have gotten faster results than the average person. Why? First, I never miss a single day when it comes to doing my exercises. Second, especially, in the beginning, there were times I was doing my menu 2 times a day. There were even occasional days that I did it 3 times in one day. Third, I have had 8 menus. I did not want to just relieve pain, I want make my body as functional as possible and be as far away from pain as possible.

I am not too familiar with all the different programs out there. However, I can tell you that joint mobility, flexibility, or strength is not the way to measure functionality.

For example, a man may have a 15 degree anterior tilt in his pelvis and excessive curve in his low back. Because of that tremendous dysfunction, that guy may have a what appears to be very good flexibility and strength when it comes to bridging and back bending.

I have seen yoga instructors with numerous dysfunctions yet their joints seem to have flexibility far beyond what most people are capable of.

Remember that everyone's bodies are different. Therefore, there cannot be one standard program that works for everyone. That is why when I give a menu of exercises to someone, it is specifically for that individual and will differ from other individuals. For example, in yoga class, I often hear the instructor say to "tuck your tailbone in" to all the students when they are standing. What I have noticed is that many female yoga instructors tend to have a strong anterior pelvic tilt. So "tucking" their tailbone in makes their pelvis more neutral when they stand. However, what about the people taking the class who have a posterior tilt? Having them "tuck" their tailbone is just making their condition worse.

OK, I have some comparison pics of myself. I have pics right before I started the posture therapy and then I look some new pics today.
By the way, here's a list of my posture problems which can be see on my "before" pics. Check out all the problems that I had and you can see why my body was in such bad shape:

1. Leaning my weight on the outsides of my feet.

2. Both feet pointing slightly outward, but the right foot more outward than left.

3. Bow legged

4. Left femur rotated outward more than right.

5. Left hip higher than right

6. Hips laterally shifted to the left

7. Right hip more forward than left (rotation)

8. Posterior tilt of the pelvis

9. Flat low back

10. Left shoulder higher than right

11. Shoulders too far forward, rounding of both shoulders (left more than right)

12. Left side of torso more forward than right (rotation that was opposite direction of hip rotation)

13. Head offset to the left

14. Head rotated towards the left (opposition direction of torso rotation)

15. Head and neck sloped too far forward

16. Knee flexion in both knees, but left more than right

If you are interested in seeing these "before" and "after" pics, e-mail me and I will send it over in 2 Word files.

------------------------

I say: what about www.barrettdorko.com/a_big_mistake.htm ? Its lists peer-reviewed medical studies that show no relationship between strength and posture, specifically for shoulder position, pelvic tilt, and lumbar lordosis. One of the studies even included a full PT designed exercise program intended to alter pelvic tilt and lumbar lordosis, with no results.

-----------

he says: In the link you mentioned above, the reason why the methods used by physical therapy did not resolve the issue of lordosis and excessive anterior tilt is because they are trying to change a postural dysfunction by strengthening the muscle on the exact opposite side. That's also why you aren't going to change the posture of a person who is thorais offset to the left by strengthening his right side or remove rounded shoulders by having them do more seated rows.

In addition, before your strengthen, you must re-balance the body or else you are just building strength on top of a problem.
judoman is offline Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2006, 08:38 PM #2
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician

Barrett Dorko's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 61
Posts: 11,411
Thanks: 392
Thanked 858 Times in 525 Posts

Default
I'm guessing you're not actually a college educated therapist of any sort. I'm also guessing you're not aware of what you're getting yourself into here with a blatant advertisement, some phrases taken directly from the "total motion release" web site currently being hawked on Rehab Edge.

Tell you what, the county fair season is nearly over and I think heading to the midway as soon as you can would be a better marketing strategy for your company. I doubt the people there will be as insulted by the claims you've made here.

I've got to ask: Do you really think Soma Simple's population is this dumb?
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2006, 09:17 PM #3
judoman
Junior Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Default
Quote:
I'm guessing you're not actually a college educated therapist of any sort. I'm also guessing you're not aware of what you're getting yourself into here with a blatant advertisement, some phrases taken directly from the "total motion release" web site currently being hawked on Rehab Edge.

Tell you what, the county fair season is nearly over and I think heading to the midway as soon as you can would be a better marketing strategy for your company. I doubt the people there will be as insulted by the claims you've made here.
I'm sorry Barrett -- though I can easily understand why you'd get the impression that was a spam attempt -- but you are mostly mistaken. You are certainly 100% correct that I'm not a therapist of any kind. I'm working on a teaching & education Uni degree, but that has nothing to do with any sort of bodywork. I'm just very interested in anything that might extend the years I've got left for actively playing Judo.

I'm a grappling enthusiast, I read that web-forum a lot, and the fellow (Michael Jen) I quote so extensively is also a very renowned teacher of Brazillian Ju-jutsu. Anything he writes gets my attention, and he makes what seems like a very persuasive case for this system. However I like to double-check everything, so when I stumbled across this forum, it seemed like the perfect place to bring up the issue, and get all of your opinions on the matter.

I've read the big myofascia thread, and was impressed to see there the various ways people demonstrated the flaws in the theory behind it. I've been reading your essays, and as I said, your "a big mistake" essay would seem to argue against this method. Jen retorted, "the reason why the methods used by physical therapy did not resolve the issue of lordosis and excessive anterior tilt is because they are trying to change a postural dysfunction by strengthening the muscle on the exact opposite side. That's also why you aren't going to change the posture of a person who is thorais offset to the left by strengthening his right side or remove rounded shoulders by having them do more seated rows."

If you'd like to comment on that, or anything else about this system, or the general idea of using exercise or other methods to improve posture, it'd be much appreciated. I contacted Jen, and he sent me these 'before and after' pics to show the difference this all made for him, which I found persuasive. Again, I'm sorry I've presented like a spammer, or with a personal stake in the matter, but its simply not the case. I'm just a curious Judo player & uni student, down in Australia, trying to get expert opinion on the matter. I'm interested in this idea of improving posture, and wondering if there could be anything to this system, or whether its more likely to just be working by some coincidence.
judoman is offline Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2006, 10:01 PM #4
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician

Barrett Dorko's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 61
Posts: 11,411
Thanks: 392
Thanked 858 Times in 525 Posts

Default
Jen's "retort" makes no sense and is based upon an assumption that is inaccurate in any case. Here's an "expert" opinion: Postural work as described in your post is a waste of time, and I don't care what the "testimonials" describe to the contrary.

It was interesting to see someone who calls himself "Jeep" on Rehab Edge say of my site today, "The SC site, LIKE the TMR site, contained testamonials [sic], "tangential references", and other dubious promotional jargon."

This is simply untrue. It is a lie. Aside from a couple compliments from students about my presentation there is nothing there resembling a claim of success or a testimonial from any patient. I'm waiting for someone over there to point this out. Jeep also complains about what he calls the "trashing" of methods whose theories make no sense. According to him, I guess, silence in the face of absurd claims is appropriate.

I can't agree.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2006, 11:42 PM #5
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy

Jon Newman's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 48 Times in 35 Posts

Default
I think if someone is going to critically analyze the work of another they could at least let people know who they are. They could also start such a process with their own thoughts and questions rather than simply asking someone else to do it.

judoman, what are you thoughts on what you posted?
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2006, 12:17 AM #6
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist

Bas Asselbergs's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 3,496
Thanks: 572
Thanked 277 Times in 155 Posts

Default
Hey Judoman:

First, Jen and you have to show with more than before and after pics, that what was done has ANY long term effect on anyone. I can easily make before and after pics of myself - doesn't mean they're accurate.
At this site, science has a lot of respect, and the more thorough the science and research is, the more respect will be shown. What you are proposing is no more than "one-of-many" workshop techniques available to any PT willing to spend $$$.

Much can sound logical, but does not necessarily stand up to scientific scrutiny (see magnet therapy, therapeutic touch, reiki, etc etc). Human motion is extremely complex in every aspect, from embryology, development of neurological tissues, genetic determinants, childhood activities, parental patterning, etc etc, to workplace ergonomics.... That's why we didn't stop studying after we were done with all those years of university - there is so much to learn. And THAT is something you can not ignore when exploring any of these types of supposed "discoveries" or "new methods".
Bas Asselbergs is offline Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2006, 01:15 AM #7
judoman
Junior Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Default
Jon Newman:

I'm sorry, I don't think I've got the knowledge & background to critically analyze this, that's what I'm hoping you folks will do for me ;-) But I'm still happy to give my proper name - Charlie Laidlaw - and I will put forth a few ideas on the matter. (On the other thread Jen goes into more detail on program designs & testimonials)

Generally, I find the theory sounds quite reasonable & persuasive. It makes sense to me that what postures we habitually assume, whether by lifestyle (hunched forward in front of computer all day) or necessity (pampering an injury; limping, etc) will become 'normal' for us, and our bodies would adapt to maintain that posture. And furthur that such a posture might not be ideal for the pain-free & injury-free functioning of a healthy athletic person.

The idea that there is a habituation of muscles into a certain posture seems quite logical, and it would seem to follow that correct development of the muscles could fix that, and could 'reset' us into a better posture. Barrett has his article that disputes the second idea ... but Jen countered that the studies were flawed, that the prescribed exercises were incorrect, and lacked the insight/direction of the MBF system. I don't know if that's right or wrong ... sounds ok to me so far. That said, I'm healthy enough that I don't have sufficient motivation to spend any money on it! In this thread I have so far had Barrett briefly give his disapproval,which though dissappointing in the lack of details, I give a lot of weight.

Bas:

I agree, it'd be nice if scientific studies were done to investigate this particular method, or the closely related Egoscue method. At the moment, its just got persuasive theory, and testimonials. As presented, it sounds a lot more reasonable than really airy-fairy stuff like magnets or reiki. So, I gather from your post that you don't feel exercise can improve bad posture?

I've had my wife take photos & tried to analyze them myself for symmetry or lack thereof - some shocking stuff! Perhaps I should start another thread for that though, to see what people find are most productive methods for correcting things like swayback, bowleggedness, outwardly rotating feet, slumped shoulders, etc.

regards,
Charlie Laidlaw
judoman is offline Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2006, 01:19 AM #8
nari
NeuroNut Evangelist

nari's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 7,479
Thanks: 512
Thanked 156 Times in 116 Posts

Default
judoman,

What you have described sounds OK; looking at the entire body is important; what you described pertaining to the person with foot pain makes sense.
It is all part of the myriad collection of techniques that are exploding in pyroclastic flows around the world. They all work. But each proponent of a technique claims to be better than this one or that one....and so it goes on.

What evidence is there that this technique resolves pain/dysfunction long term? Short term, great outcomes can be gained by almost anything a PT does or doesn't do; the technique does not matter much.

The crucial points are:

Has the patient gained enough skills to be independent in self-management?

Is that patient going to be walking around with high levels of tension looking as though he has been internally fixated with steel? I am talking about the average person who is not into martial arts; just the joe who goes to work and watches TV and walks the dog. Martial arts training is a different kettle of fish.

There is truly no evidence (if folk are hunting for others' work rather than their own understanding) which unequivocably links pain and posture. Plenty of folk slouch through life without problems; if problems develop there is no way to determine that posture is to blame all by itself. They are multifactorial in origin. Posture may be one of them.

May I give an example? Just one, which demonstrates a point or two.
Female patient, intelligent, resourceful, in 24/7 (R) sciatic pain for 4 years, gains relief by sitting on one hip in a semi foetal position. She can sit for a long time like that; she has had people trying to shove her body into correct posture/alignment for a long long time. Nothing works. She apologised for bad posture. I put myself into her situation, not mine and said: I'm not concerned about posture; it doesn't matter much. After education on pain's origins, she left relieved with reduced pain...

Many health professionals have a propensity to make health issues as complicated as possible. The brain/body is complex, and confuses us easily; so we tend to make multiple interventions on the basis of individual systems.

Anyway, judoman, thanks for posting. To a Martian, we all have our separate ways of skinning the cat. We are wrong and right with any of them.

Nari
Last edited by nari; 16-08-2006 at 01:28 AM.
nari is offline Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2006, 01:53 AM #9
Jon Newman
Enjoy a moment of whimsy

Jon Newman's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,024
Thanks: 5
Thanked 48 Times in 35 Posts

Default
Hello Charlie,

Since you have neither the background nor knowledge there is no reason for me to suspect that you would understand why it is or is not a good theory regardless of what we say here as it will all sound good (or bad). I can recommend the following essay if you'd like to explore some of the faulty thinking in your original post.


Quote:
Med Health Care Philos. 2001;4(1):37-46.

Comment in:Med Health Care Philos. 2001;4(1):1-3. On the difficulty of defining disease: a Darwinian perspective.

Nesse RM.
University of Michigan, Institute for Social Research, Room 5057, 426 Thompson Street, Ann Arbor, MI 48104, USA. [email protected]
Most attempts to craft a definition of disease seem to have tackled two tasks simultaneously: 1) trying to create a series of inclusion and exclusion criteria that correspond to medical usage of the word disease and 2) using this definition to understand the essence of what disease is. The first task has been somewhat accomplished, but cannot reach closure because the concept of "disease" is based on a prototype, not a logical category. The second task cannot be accomplished by deduction, but only by understanding how the body works and what each component is for, in evolutionary detail. An evolutionary view of the origins of the body and its vulnerabilities that result in disease provides an objective foundation for recognizing pathology. Our social definition of disease will remain contentious, however, because values vary, and because the label "disease" changes judgments about the moral status of people with various conditions, and their rights to medical and social resources
__________________
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
Jon Newman is offline Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2006, 04:26 AM #10
Chancellor Mobley
Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: louisville KY
Posts: 129
Thanks: 55
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

Default Judoka
Judoka,

What is your motive in doing this research into posture and bodywork? Are you looking to become a better Judoka through posture, looking to relieve pain or wanting to help others in doing so...... Curious.

Chance
Chancellor Mobley is online now Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2006, 01:25 PM #11
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist

Bas Asselbergs's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 3,496
Thanks: 572
Thanked 277 Times in 155 Posts

Default
Hi Charlie. I think exercise (an act of "will") by a human can change posture - absolutely. My question is: shouldn't one first check to see if it is the posture that needs changing? That is the basic assumption for the whole approach, and hasn't exactly been supported by any research as a valid assumption. Yes, people will report to feel better when they do such-and-such routine - especially when presented by a person they have respect for (sensei) or have great admiration for, or who has charisma. ANY exercise for a body in pain CAN have beneficial effects. Changing mechanics can have a positive effect. Wearing a magnet bracelet CAN have a positive effect. Does this mean the method works? Or does it mean the person doing whatever it is, trusts and believes it is good for them? These are reasonable questions to ask of anyone presenting any method.

The danger with using biomechanical sciences and theories for the human is that the nervous system is wholly ignored. The human is NOT a biomechanical unit, subject to just laws of forces - the experiences of being human, feeling well, having pain etc., have little to nothing to do with biomechanics. They have everything to do with the interaction of the nervous system, including brain and its experiences, with the environment and with itself. Biomechanics have an effect, but it is just a minor player.

As a martial arts person, you are much more involved with your sense of motion, balance and position in space than most - this may make you much more receptive to an approach that engages that aspect of you as a human.

I would say that there is nothing wrong with performing postural exercises, if they feel good and help you with whatever your goals are. But it is a whole different story to make statements about posture in general and improving it. Ask yourself, what is perfect posture? In what circumstance? And why?
It is just too simplistic and reduces the pain and discomfort of patients to formulaic problems with "alignment" of the body and ignores the large body of research showing the importance of the nervous system in suffering - sometimes in patients with perfect posture.

OK, I am repeating myself....Time for a breather.
Bas Asselbergs is offline Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2006, 03:22 PM #12
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician

Diane's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 18,537
Thanks: 1,076
Thanked 2,152 Times in 1,106 Posts

Default
Wow Bas, your post says it all.
Nice bit of writing.
__________________
Diane
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Diane Jacobs.com (personal website)
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
(Follow @PainPhysiosCan on twitter)
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is online now Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2006, 02:16 AM #13
Randy Dixon
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 536
Thanks: 5
Thanked 68 Times in 39 Posts

Default
Judoman,

I'm a judo/jiujitsu player myself, and there is at least one more regular on this forum, Jason who is also.

I think the main area of resistance you will find to this idea on this forum is that posture is a complex and subtle thing with many variables contributing to it. It seems unlikely that we can, through only visual cues, ascertain what is the best posture for any individual at any given time. Certainly we can't do that better than that person can do themselves. I think much more information is available looking from the inside-out of our bodies than the outside-in.

After saying that, I will also tell you that I am more sympathetic towards this than most others here. I don't think they neglect the nervous system's influence on posture, even if they weren't aware of it there is no way to leave it out. I think, that we have an instinctual sense of "good posture", that are bodies will find a functionally efficient position if we allow them too, but that instinct can be overridden by many things, conditioning, social pressures, willfully. I also think that some rather gross ineffiencies can be observed visually. If we do exercises that take our bodies through motions tht have been neglected it allows the body, the nervous system, to refind "the groove", then those can be corrected. This, along with adopting functional exercises and mindful movement, improves our posture and our biomechanical efficiency. The problem I see is that many times the approach is seen as something that can be imposed on someone, that muscles can be tightened and stretched to give us the appearance that looks best. I see the writings of many people that seem to feel that this is true.

I also have attended an Egoscue seminar, and was underwhelmed with the presentation. However, the concept had stuck with me earlier, I had noticed long ago that I had a slightly shorter leg on the right?(it's been awhile), I had been told to wear an orthotic. I didn't wear one but I often found that I would have problems with my left leg. I finally figured out that I had a rotated pelvis, straightened it out, and my leg problems went away as well as my shoulders leveling out. It could be my imagination, but it wasn't.
Randy Dixon is offline Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2006, 02:36 AM #14
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician

Barrett Dorko's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 61
Posts: 11,411
Thanks: 392
Thanked 858 Times in 525 Posts

Default
Randy says: "I don't think they neglect the nervous system's influence on posture, even if they weren't aware of it there is no way to leave it out."

I wanted to just say, "Huh?" but have decided against that.

Those who focus on the mesoderm do neglect the nervous system out of ignorance and, beyond that, an excessive faith in the capabilities of muscle and connective tissue.

It's a deadly combination.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Barrett Dorko is offline Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2006, 04:03 AM #15
nari
NeuroNut Evangelist

nari's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 7,479
Thanks: 512
Thanked 156 Times in 116 Posts

Default
Randy,

Those with a sensitive nervous system aka mechanical deformation, resulting in upper trunk pain and associated dysfunction, are still being told by many PTs to retract the scapulae, depress the shoulders, stretch the neck into neutral (deep flexor stuff) and try to keep it that way "as often as possible". This creates strong neural tension and for many patients, further pain. The premise seems to be, keep practising this; the newly activated muscles will take over and maintain the corrected posture.
Maybe it does for some; those without the signs of log term central sensitisation. But for our severely chronic pain patients this premise does not assist in desensitisation.
It simply makes them more miserable.
I would encourage comfortable posturing; this acknowledges the CNS and eases the chemical barrage of nociception. But comfortable posturing can end up with bizarre and fixed postures if taken to extremes; so somewhere in the middle is a likely solution.
So the nature of the patient clientele is a factor in the wrangle over posture retraining.

Nari
nari is offline Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2006, 11:06 AM #16
Randy Dixon
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 536
Thanks: 5
Thanked 68 Times in 39 Posts

Default
Nari,

I don't disagree with what you say, there are good ways and bad ways to treat patients, using any technique. I think the example you are using is what I warned about, trying to impose correct posture, rather than letting the patient find it themselves.

Regarding Barretts comments, many people are not ignorant of the neurological influence in postural control, in fact, many of those who advocate postural training are very aware of it. Their view is that we influence the nervous system through the musculoskeletal system, so that is their focus. Some people miss the implied understanding, but this doesn't mean that they don't influence the nervous system as well.

Ideomotion also seems to affect the nervous system through the use of the musculoskeletal system, the primary difference being that it relies on instinctive movement. I think the problem is that many people expect linear causality when looking at the complex interactions of the body when it is actually more circular.

"Randy says: "I don't think they neglect the nervous system's influence on posture, even if they weren't aware of it there is no way to leave it out."

I wanted to just say, "Huh?" but have decided against that."-Barrett

Thanks Barrett, for explaining that. That was much better.
Randy Dixon is offline Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2006, 12:38 PM #17
nari
NeuroNut Evangelist

nari's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 7,479
Thanks: 512
Thanked 156 Times in 116 Posts

Default
Randy,

I wonder how many realise that they might be directly influencing the CNS/PNS through alignments and adjustments, first and foremost, and then other tissues, primarily muscles, follow orders from the nervous system, if the brain approves of the interventions?
After all, it has a vested interest in its organism....

Muscles are inert structures if one "takes away" the nerves.

Nari
nari is offline Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2006, 01:39 PM #18
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist

Bas Asselbergs's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 3,496
Thanks: 572
Thanked 277 Times in 155 Posts

Default
Thanks Diane. Coming from you, that's quite something.

Randy, my problem with the people "missing" the implied understanding and their influencing the nervous system through the musculoskeletal system, is that when one uses an approach from that perspective, the horse seems to be firmly planted behind the cart.

As I said, for many ANY movement and self-awareness of their body in space is beneficial, but words like "good posture" and "biomechanically efficient" just are too far removed from human function. "Good" is a completely qualitative word, without any framework of comparison; "biomechanically efficient" is a concept that has its place in sports, but has little to no import for an individual personal life-needs. Biomechanically efficient is sitting still on a couch, rather than running every morning. There are so many aspects involved in, and resulting from human motion that a biomechanic approach seems akin to chipping away at marble with a wooden splinter....

I much rather see a focus on developing a sense of self awareness, of comfort motion, and of empowerment, that have a course dedicated to applying external, unsupported, concepts of symmetry and balance and "proper" posture. Especially when it's target is the muscle, and not the nervous system controlling the muscle.
That is my beef with the whole idea of the above proposed and other postural corrective techniques.
Bas Asselbergs is offline Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2006, 03:53 PM #19
Barrett Dorko
Writer and Clinician

Barrett Dorko's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 61
Posts: 11,411
Thanks: 392
Thanked 858 Times in 525 Posts

Default
Randy,

If I weren't previously familiar with the nature of ideomotion your comments would confuse the daylights out of me so I want to address them here.

You say: "Their view is that we influence the nervous system through the musculoskeletal system, so that is their focus."

Well, their focus is skewed and incomplete, to say the least. The position of the musculoskeletal anatomy most certainly affects nerve function and unnatural extremes of any posture may compromise it beyond its painless tolerance, but there is no evidence that the culturally imposed postures promoted by the traditional methods we see promoted again and again at these courses are anything more than cosmetic. Breig demonstrated long ago that external rotation and abduction of the hips has quite a dramatic effect on neural tension (it diminishes it). Ever see that promoted at a "postural" course? Upper quarter postures cannot compare yet they are emphasized in the absence of clinical relevance because of their cultural significance. In short, they are cosmetically pleasing, kind of like a stylish haircut.

You also say: "Ideomotion also seems to affect the nervous system through the use of the musculoskeletal system, the primary difference being that it relies on instinctive movement. I think the problem is that many people expect linear causality when looking at the complex interactions of the body when it is actually more circular."

Two things wrong here. Ideomotion doesn't "rely on instinctive movement" it is instinctive movement. Its purpose is expression and reduction of mechanical deformation that the brain finds sufficiently unpleasant. Try not moving (except to breath or swallow) for a while and you'll see what I mean.

The words "linear causality" don't actually go together. Perhaps you meant "linear consequence." And reactions within a complex system to provocation are not "circular," they are unpredictable.
__________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
www.barrettdorko.com
Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 17-08-2006 at 06:22 PM.
Barrett Dorko is offline Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2006, 04:41 PM #20
Jason Silvernail
Clinician and Researcher

Jason Silvernail's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas, USA
Age: 38
Posts: 3,999
Thanks: 37
Thanked 334 Times in 134 Posts

Default
Charlie-

I think the bottom line here is that you need to throw this posture system with Uchi-mata immediately.

There are many people out there promising the solution to aches and pains, and a big problem is that many of them do not have the education to know what they don't know.
His comments about physical therapy are not only off-base but a bit insulting as well. His accusations that we do not see our patients in terms of their overall function or that we treat back pain by "working your abs and stretching your hamstrings" is ridiculous.

He has no proof for any of his claims, only his personal opinion. His comment that the research is not valid is quite funny. I doubt he has the education to understand medical research, and his exercise degree does not qualify him in ANY WAY to treat people with painful problems as if he were a medical practitioner of some sort, such as a physician or therapist. In fact, the ACSM has a position stand on this, and is very clear that it's certificants (Mr Gluckman has the Health and Fitness Instructor certification) cannot provide medical care. I wonder what they would think about the claims on his website?

Let's look at it this way - if his system is so good, why the testimonials? Couldn't he just point to the medical research that supports his treatment rationale, as we do here? I wonder why he doesn't do that? The reason: his mouth and his website are writing checks that the data can't cash.

I'd let your jui-jitsu teacher work on your jits game, and leave the health care to those qualified to administer it...


J
__________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy