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Romans 13 Debate

 
eyestoseeearstohear
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01/19/2013 09:38 PM
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Romans 13 Debate
King James Version
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

NIV
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God

NLV
Every person must obey the leaders of the land. There is no power given but from God, and all leaders are allowed by God.

Amplified Bible
Let every person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities. For there is no authority except from God [by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist do so by Godís appointment.

If you take the translation literally other than the KJV, you actually have no need to read and understand the Bible.

Thoughts?
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Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 09:46 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
It pretty much says slaves should obey their government masters?
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 09:55 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
King James Version
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

NIV
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God

NLV
Every person must obey the leaders of the land. There is no power given but from God, and all leaders are allowed by God.

Amplified Bible
Let every person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities. For there is no authority except from God [by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist do so by Godís appointment.

If you take the translation literally other than the KJV, you actually have no need to read and understand the Bible.

Thoughts?
 Quoting: eyestoseeearstohear





Really no debate. God was very clear that no ruler on earth would ever exercise control except as God allowed (allows) it. It never means that Christians are to ever obey any regulations made by anyone that are immoral or unchristian. We have a duty to obey God, not men, if there is a conflict.
Orderly, just and righteous government is a part of God's provision, even for a wicked world. In wicked, tyrannical governments, Christians cannot obey. Christian martyrs obeyed God, not men. Paul spent as much time in jail as out, because he obeyed God, not men.
God's instructions are for a military and police force; He raised them up to protect the innocent. It is government's job to legislate morality by punishing evil and to reward good.
THERE ARE TIMES WHEN ABUSE OF POWER MUST BE RESISTED, ACCORDING TO GOD. Civil authority is limited for the Christian. If government's rules are not in accordance with God's instructions, we should not obey. Obey God, not men. God establishes kings and rulers, and He removes them in His time and schedule.
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 09:59 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
I don't believe Paul should be considered speaking for Jesus. His tone and instruction, while paralleling the teaching of Jesus, oftentimes skew off into themes that I believe are counter to those that Jesus preached.
eyestoseeearstohear (OP)

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01/19/2013 10:01 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
Paul restricted his belief little in accordance to his own scripture however he was very prolific in the various levels of translation.
He could appear sincerely sarcastic
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eyestoseeearstohear (OP)

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01/19/2013 10:03 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
to edit, the reason for the dabate additionally is the variance to the versions of scripture,
NIV etc relates things to physical babylon not to spiritual Godly
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Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 10:05 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
King James Version
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

NIV
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God

NLV
Every person must obey the leaders of the land. There is no power given but from God, and all leaders are allowed by God.

Amplified Bible
Let every person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities. For there is no authority except from God [by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist do so by Godís appointment.

If you take the translation literally other than the KJV, you actually have no need to read and understand the Bible.

Thoughts?
 Quoting: eyestoseeearstohear





Really no debate. God was very clear that no ruler on earth would ever exercise control except as God allowed (allows) it. It never means that Christians are to ever obey any regulations made by anyone that are immoral or unchristian. We have a duty to obey God, not men, if there is a conflict.
Orderly, just and righteous government is a part of God's provision, even for a wicked world. In wicked, tyrannical governments, Christians cannot obey. Christian martyrs obeyed God, not men. Paul spent as much time in jail as out, because he obeyed God, not men.
God's instructions are for a military and police force; He raised them up to protect the innocent. It is government's job to legislate morality by punishing evil and to reward good.
THERE ARE TIMES WHEN ABUSE OF POWER MUST BE RESISTED, ACCORDING TO GOD. Civil authority is limited for the Christian. If government's rules are not in accordance with God's instructions, we should not obey. Obey God, not men. God establishes kings and rulers, and He removes them in His time and schedule.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32589283




Additionally, verse 5 in romans 13 says that obedience to civil authority (government) is a matter of conscience and morality....we must never obey immoral laws that contradict or oppose what God has spoken.
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 10:09 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
Ecclesiastes 3, v. 1-13
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
I don't believe Paul should be considered speaking for Jesus. His tone and instruction, while paralleling the teaching of Jesus, oftentimes skew off into themes that I believe are counter to those that Jesus preached.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28811763




ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED .... 2 Timothy 3:16

I haven't found anything that Paul taught contradicting Jesus.
IAMIAM

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01/19/2013 10:12 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
I don't believe Paul should be considered speaking for Jesus. His tone and instruction, while paralleling the teaching of Jesus, oftentimes skew off into themes that I believe are counter to those that Jesus preached.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28811763




ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED .... 2 Timothy 3:16

I haven't found anything that Paul taught contradicting Jesus.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32589283


Of course!

Don't you think when the council of Nicea was convened that contradiction was one thing used to invalidate other scripture?

Jesus wasn't crucified for being compliant to government.

Just sayin.
Thread: Chains

Have you the strength to break them?
eyestoseeearstohear (OP)

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Re: Romans 13 Debate
There is significant debate about Obamacare taxes etc breaking the "Law" pertaining to abortion.
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Resister

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01/19/2013 10:14 PM

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Re: Romans 13 Debate
Submission to God must be absolute. Submission to man is not. Daniel did not submit to Nebuchadnezzar when his orders contradicted God's. The founding fathers of these United States reached a point of recjecting King George's authority and they propery sited God's higher authority to do so.

We in America do not live in a land of kings. We elect our so-called leaders. They can and frequently are removed from office and replaced. We also do not live in a land of rule by fiat. Our laws are passed by the people we elect and even then they are supposed to pass the muster of our constitution. If our government violates God's laws, or our constitution, or just doesn't live up to our expectations, it is our right, our duty to change it.

I will submit to a just government only. I will not comply with the demands of an unjust and unconstitutional government. To do so would be to allow another Hitler or Stalin or Mao to rise to power. God works in mysterious way and he has used some pretty bad people for his purposes before. That does not make them good and it does not mean I have to sumbit to them. It may mean that I become a part of God's redemptive fight. If so. So be it.
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
Submission to God must be absolute. Submission to man is not. Daniel did not submit to Nebuchadnezzar when his orders contradicted God's. The founding fathers of these United States reached a point of recjecting King George's authority and they propery sited God's higher authority to do so.

We in America do not live in a land of kings. We elect our so-called leaders. They can and frequently are removed from office and replaced. We also do not live in a land of rule by fiat. Our laws are passed by the people we elect and even then they are supposed to pass the muster of our constitution. If our government violates God's laws, or our constitution, or just doesn't live up to our expectations, it is our right, our duty to change it.

I will submit to a just government only. I will not comply with the demands of an unjust and unconstitutional government. To do so would be to allow another Hitler or Stalin or Mao to rise to power. God works in mysterious way and he has used some pretty bad people for his purposes before. That does not make them good and it does not mean I have to sumbit to them. It may mean that I become a part of God's redemptive fight. If so. So be it.
 Quoting: Resister




Very good.
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
There is significant debate about Obamacare taxes etc breaking the "Law" pertaining to abortion.
 Quoting: eyestoseeearstohear


And what of all the other things that go against our creator;
from war to psychological war to laws designed to imprison and punish for doing nothing against the lords teachings.
I'd say that if you're a real christian then you are adamantly against our government and all governments.
Men are not supposed to govern men.
eyestoseeearstohear (OP)

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01/19/2013 10:34 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
I study with the NKJV and KJV the other versions always seem off from the original intent.
Even worse from the Hebrew translations, the intent of the message is difficult to find the origin.
Study Hebraic Roots
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 10:35 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
Ecclesiastes 3, v. 1-13
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20094377




Ecclesiastes is the favorite book of atheists. It is a series of arguments, supporting Soloman's premise that there is no sense to anything---except as he concluded in the last chapter the inevitable conclusion that any approach to life that erases God is the wrong philosophy.
The entire book of Ecclesiastes is an orderly summary of WHAT MAN THINKS (not what God thinks).
For example, in chapter 1, the SCIENTIFIC or mechanistic view of life is given (the universee a a great grinding machine)...that we are lost in meaningless emptiness. This of course is not God's view.
The 2nd chapter describes man's HEDONISTIC philosophy....that the pursuit of pleasure is the purpose for life. That of course, is not God's view.

Chapter 3 gives the FATALISTIC philosophy of life...not a new idea. Of course in verse 8... "a time for war, and a time for peace"....when tyranny rides roughshod over rights of people, it is time for war. That's true...there are a lot of truths in each of the arguments of human reasoning what is right and good.
The basic premise of chapter 3 is man's philosophy "live like an animal...all return to dust."

through the rest of ecclesiastes, we find other philosophies, capitalism (the competitive enterprises of life being expounded as the reason for living , religion (that is, religious formalism only produces emptiness and vanity), materialism (the good life philosophy), stoicism (moderation...avoid extremes as much as possible...just get by), wisdom, common sense....none of these philosophies are new--Soloman tried all of them and finally concluded that LIFE IS MEANINGLESS AND IS ONLY SIGNIFICANT WHEN GOD IS ENTHRONED IN OUR HEARTS AND LIVES.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
1. This would only pertain to Christians. Obviously.

2. In the great United States of America, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land. The President submits to the Constitution. All government officials submit to the Constitution via oath.

That being the case, if we were to believe in Romans 13 here in the US, then we are to obey the US Constitution. I'm down for that. =P
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
There is significant debate about Obamacare taxes etc breaking the "Law" pertaining to abortion.
 Quoting: eyestoseeearstohear


And what of all the other things that go against our creator;
from war to psychological war to laws designed to imprison and punish for doing nothing against the lords teachings.
I'd say that if you're a real christian then you are adamantly against our government and all governments.
Men are not supposed to govern men.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1342725




This world is not our home. We're just passing through.
eyestoseeearstohear (OP)

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01/19/2013 10:42 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
There is significant debate about Obamacare taxes etc breaking the "Law" pertaining to abortion.
 Quoting: eyestoseeearstohear


And what of all the other things that go against our creator;
from war to psychological war to laws designed to imprison and punish for doing nothing against the lords teachings.
I'd say that if you're a real christian then you are adamantly against our government and all governments.
Men are not supposed to govern men.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1342725




This world is not our home. We're just passing through.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32589283

Yes indeed, with the proper guidance we will make it to the New Millennium
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Anonymous Coward
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
There is significant debate about Obamacare taxes etc breaking the "Law" pertaining to abortion.
 Quoting: eyestoseeearstohear


And what of all the other things that go against our creator;
from war to psychological war to laws designed to imprison and punish for doing nothing against the lords teachings.
I'd say that if you're a real christian then you are adamantly against our government and all governments.
Men are not supposed to govern men.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1342725




This world is not our home. We're just passing through.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32589283


How am I not myself?
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 10:45 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
1. This would only pertain to Christians. Obviously.

2. In the great United States of America, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land. The President submits to the Constitution. All government officials submit to the Constitution via oath.

That being the case, if we were to believe in Romans 13 here in the US, then we are to obey the US Constitution. I'm down for that. =P
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3538082




The founders were wise in that they knew history and they knew the bible (even those who did not necessarily submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ). Their BASIS was the Bible. They knew human nature and they knew history; they knew God's instructions, and they intended the US to be a light to the nations. It worked until the corruptors usurped our government. Now if enough righteous men will take a stand, unseat the corrupt system that we have become, this could be a righteous nation again. Unfortunately it appears that this will not happen, as the NWO is entrenched and they are just about ready to flip the switch.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
I study with the NKJV and KJV the other versions always seem off from the original intent.
Even worse from the Hebrew translations, the intent of the message is difficult to find the origin.
 Quoting: eyestoseeearstohear




Personally I use the New American Standard. To determine the intent of the message, I read the verses preceding and following, and in the context of the entire Bible. That's what works for me.
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 10:53 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
staring at an old religious text trying to find meaning in your life.


dumb!
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
1. This would only pertain to Christians. Obviously.

2. In the great United States of America, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land. The President submits to the Constitution. All government officials submit to the Constitution via oath.

That being the case, if we were to believe in Romans 13 here in the US, then we are to obey the US Constitution. I'm down for that. =P
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3538082




OK... I agree with that. But the US government has been usurped by communists/ marxists/ progressives/ whatever else you want to call these anti-Godly people who are now our rulers. They want to nullify the Bible and the constitution. We're entering a whole new world.
eyestoseeearstohear (OP)

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01/19/2013 10:56 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
We have reach an unbelievably demonic course in which our country is about to begin a new journey tomorrow at noon.
We need to think of God's Armor and not so much about guns.
Demonic release is looking very near in our future.
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
staring at an old religious text trying to find meaning in your life.


dumb!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14296678



The text you speak of is the Owner's Manual... you know the kind of little book you get when you buy a new gadget or instrument that you don't know about how everything works.
God created us and He gave us one of those. Life gets real complicated sometimes, so He gave us the instructions on how to make sense of it.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
Isn't that just another way of saying "Render unto God the things that are God's, render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's"?

Separation of Church and State.
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 11:17 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
staring at an old religious text trying to find meaning in your life.


dumb!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14296678



The text you speak of is the Owner's Manual... you know the kind of little book you get when you buy a new gadget or instrument that you don't know about how everything works.
God created us and He gave us one of those. Life gets real complicated sometimes, so He gave us the instructions on how to make sense of it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32589283



And furthermore, New Zealand, that text reveals to us that there is only one sure way of happiness: "fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person..." this is what makes a person whole. The Text that we speak of leaves us with no doubt as to the existence and the justice of our Creator God. It also tells us that the only thing to say to a man who approaches life without a committment to God and a belief that He is Lord and that this ancient Text gives us the answers for life's true meaning---then the only thing we can say to you is "eat, drink and be merry," for in the end, you knee will bow and your tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Better to do it in this life than the next, for in the next, we face judgment if we are not covered by the blood of the Lamb.
eyestoseeearstohear (OP)

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01/19/2013 11:20 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
The possability of non believers will be minimal with the Lake of Fire burning, but then again I could be suprised.
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eyestoseeearstohear (OP)

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01/19/2013 11:21 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
The possability of non believers will be minimal with the Lake of Fire burning, but then again I could be suprised.
 Quoting: eyestoseeearstohear


ld edit more.
The possibility of non-believers will be minimal with the Lake of Fire burning, but then again I could be surprised
Study Hebraic Roots
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2013 11:29 PM
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Re: Romans 13 Debate
staring at an old religious text trying to find meaning in your life.


dumb!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14296678




I deduct from the "dumb!"... because I believe in the Bible that you think you are wise.

Do you know what that old religious text says about you, who think you are wise.

Thinking themselves to be wise, they became fools.
We preach the power of God and the WISDOM of God, for the foolishness of God is wiser than men....

Not many wise will humble themselves enough to acknowledge their need of a Saviour. People considered by the world to be foolish and dumb are freely forgiven and received by God's grace.
Even "smart" people like you are received by His grace when you will acknowledge Him as your Saviour. He will save any of us who are willing.

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