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I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers

 
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 11:36 AM

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I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
First of all, let me say, I am a staunch 2nd Amendment supporter and was raised that way from a very early age. I came from a family where my father concealed carried, due to his profession, and I was taught proper gun handling from about 6 years old. I go practice shooting for recreation and would never advocate anything that would not grandfather current gun owners / arms purchased in the past.

Now with that said, I have an open mind and I'm also a numbers guy. I've been doing my own research and have come to some conclusions..

First of all, I am noticing that more guns does not equal less crime and let me explain why. Most of the states with highest gun ownership rates do NOT have a dramatic reduction in violent crimes. In fact many of them are among the highest gun death rate per capita in our country. See where your state falls:

[link to www.statemaster.com]

Notice which ones are the lowest.. Now I'm against any kind of all out bans, (see Chicago) however the most permissive states in their gun laws are among the higher death rates and I will tell you why.

There's a particular Wal-Mart in the town I live that everyone knows you should avoid. No one wants to go there. The service sucks, it's full of crackheads and you feel like you may get stabbed walking to your car. When you mention that Wal-Mart, anyone from around here goes "Oh THAT one.." with wide eyes. You could go right down the road and buy stolen tires, car stereos and probably get a BJ for 25 bucks.

Now tell me, WHY on earth would it be good for guns to be easily acquired in said neighborhood? I almost guarantee you that 95% of the guns sold at that store are used in crimes by criminals.

This has nothing to do with restricting law abiding citizens.. Go to Bass Pro or any sporting goods store and you will notice a much different clientele... I'm not talking about race either. We have a huge population of white trash meth heads too, BUT... I guarantee you the crackheads and meth heads who live by that Wal Mart and probably ride the bus to work (if they have a job) would not go out of there way to go to the Sporting Goods store on the other side of town. They can just just walk in to their local China Junk store and by a cheap gun.

So in short.. Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens are good, proliferation of arms in a lower socioeconomic neighborhood.. not so much.

So, I say make it a little more difficult to acquire one. Take them out of the food stamp stores. I don't care. I have a car and a bank account and I can wait a few days and acquire one from bass pro.

rant



hiding

Last Edited by Grimsun on 01/21/2013 11:38 AM
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 11:41 AM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
bump for intelligent discussion (hopefully)
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 11:41 AM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
If you subtract the gun-related crimes committed by inner city negroes, then the gun-related crime rate of the US is the same as that of Belgium.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 11:41 AM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Nice try shill. Your link is "firearm deaths per 100000", nothing to do with crime. Alaska is second. Lots of hunting accidents and suicidez
Hawaii is #1 in per capita drownings. Ban the ocean!!
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 11:42 AM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Nice try shill. Your link is "firearm deaths per 100000", nothing to do with crime. Alaska is second. Lots of hunting accidents and suicidez
Hawaii is #1 in per capita drownings. Ban the ocean!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24659056


Just show me some better numbers then. I tried to find one that took out suicides.
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 11:43 AM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
If you subtract the gun-related crimes committed by inner city negroes, then the gun-related crime rate of the US is the same as that of Belgium.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32284139


I think it has to do with inner city poverty, not race.

Last Edited by Grimsun on 01/21/2013 11:44 AM
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 11:43 AM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
PS your average meth user has been in jail a dozen times and cant legally buy a firearm. Nice red herring though.

Yeah, you're poor second amendment like I'm pro Obama. Liar.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 11:43 AM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
double post

Last Edited by Grimsun on 01/21/2013 11:44 AM
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 11:45 AM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Nice try shill. Your link is "firearm deaths per 100000", nothing to do with crime. Alaska is second. Lots of hunting accidents and suicidez
Hawaii is #1 in per capita drownings. Ban the ocean!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24659056


Just show me some better numbers then. I tried to find one that took out suicides.
 Quoting: Grimsun


Sure you did. Liar. Murder stats are ready to find, but they wouldn't fit your agenda would they?
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 11:45 AM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
By your logic, we should ban fast food restaurants in poor neighborhoods. I would bet the statistics of degenerative health problems from processed food eclipses deaths from gun violence by orders of magnitude.

And while your at it, why not delineate "rights" to people based on socio-economic status?

.

charlie
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01/21/2013 11:46 AM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
:flowers: bra
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01/21/2013 11:48 AM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
The gun ban won't have any effect on criminals, they'll find them, and kill you while you wait for police
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Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 11:48 AM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Nice try shill. Your link is "firearm deaths per 100000", nothing to do with crime. Alaska is second. Lots of hunting accidents and suicidez
Hawaii is #1 in per capita drownings. Ban the ocean!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24659056


Just show me some better numbers then. I tried to find one that took out suicides.
 Quoting: Grimsun


How bout this then:

[link to www.census.gov]

Maybe you can find more recent numbers.

Last Edited by Grimsun on 01/21/2013 11:51 AM
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 11:51 AM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
By your logic, we should ban fast food restaurants in poor neighborhoods. I would bet the statistics of degenerative health problems from processed food eclipses deaths from gun violence by orders of magnitude.

And while your at it, why not delineate "rights" to people based on socio-economic status?

.

charlie
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


Not necessarily take them out of bad neighborhoods.. but it couldn't hurt to take them out of the food stamp store. Gun dealers, with background checks wouldn't hinder any law abiding citizens would it? Other than inconvenience?
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 11:57 AM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Nice try shill. Your link is "firearm deaths per 100000", nothing to do with crime. Alaska is second. Lots of hunting accidents and suicidez
Hawaii is #1 in per capita drownings. Ban the ocean!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24659056


Just show me some better numbers then. I tried to find one that took out suicides.
 Quoting: Grimsun


How bout this then:

[link to www.census.gov]

Maybe you can find more recent numbers.
 Quoting: Grimsun


Wow the list of the highest violent crime per capita on the link above is very telling..

South Carolina
Tennessee
Nevada
Florida
Louisiana
Alaska
Delaware
Maryland
New Mexico
Michigan
Arkansas
Missouri
Illinois
California
Texas
Arizona
Oklahoma
North Carolina
Georgia
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 12:00 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
If you subtract the gun-related crimes committed by inner city negroes, then the gun-related crime rate of the US is the same as that of Belgium.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32284139


No, it's WAY lower in Belgium. We don't have a gun tradition.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 12:02 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Still no one has answered my questions. Why would it be good to have more guns a neighborhood like the one I described?
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 12:02 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Just a sample.

State Gun Ownership vs. Murder rate per 100k

New York - 18% 4.0


Wyoming - 59.7% 3.2
Alaska - 57.8% 4.0
Montana - 57.7% 2.8
South Dakota - 56.6% 2.5
West Virginia - 55.4% 4.3
Idaho - 55.3% 2.3
North Dakota - 50.7% 3.5
Kentucky - 47.7% 3.5
Wisconsin - 44.4% 2.4
Utah - 43.9% 1.9
Iowa - 42.9% 1.5
Kansas - 42.1% 3.8
Vermont - 42.0% 1.3
Minnesota - 41.7% 1.4
Maine - 40.5% 2.0



etc. etc.......
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 12:06 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Just a sample.

State Gun Ownership vs. Murder rate per 100k

New York - 18% 4.0


Wyoming - 59.7% 3.2
Alaska - 57.8% 4.0
Montana - 57.7% 2.8
South Dakota - 56.6% 2.5
West Virginia - 55.4% 4.3
Idaho - 55.3% 2.3
North Dakota - 50.7% 3.5
Kentucky - 47.7% 3.5
Wisconsin - 44.4% 2.4
Utah - 43.9% 1.9
Iowa - 42.9% 1.5
Kansas - 42.1% 3.8
Vermont - 42.0% 1.3
Minnesota - 41.7% 1.4
Maine - 40.5% 2.0



etc. etc.......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32730030


Im also noticing the states with little to no gun laws have the highest problems on multiple different statistics.
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 12:08 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Still no one has answered my questions. Why would it be good to have more guns a neighborhood like the one I described?
 Quoting: Grimsun


Because, regardless of how bad the neighborhood is the majority of people living there are not criminals, and it is a God given right "read: not Government given" for innocent people to protect themselves from criminals who wish to do them and their families harm.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:08 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Still no one has answered my questions. Why would it be good to have more guns a neighborhood like the one I described?
 Quoting: Grimsun


I'll answer your question. "Good" is not arrived at by eliminating individual freedoms via governmental force. In fact "evil" is attained by mandating, legislating or restricting individual freedoms.

.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 12:11 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Still no one has answered my questions. Why would it be good to have more guns a neighborhood like the one I described?
 Quoting: Grimsun


I'll answer your question. "Good" is not arrived at by eliminating individual freedoms via governmental force. In fact "evil" is attained by mandating, legislating or restricting individual freedoms.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


But you are still free to buy a gun are you not? I'm only simply saying I am fine with a few extra hoops if it will deter a crackhead from purchasing a gun at Walmart with cash and then committing a crime.

Last Edited by Grimsun on 01/21/2013 12:13 PM
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 12:12 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Still no one has answered my questions. Why would it be good to have more guns a neighborhood like the one I described?
 Quoting: Grimsun


Because, regardless of how bad the neighborhood is the majority of people living there are not criminals, and it is a God given right "read: not Government given" for innocent people to protect themselves from criminals who wish to do them and their families harm.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32730030


Agreed on all parts. As stated in my OP, the law abiding citizens can drive to bass pro and buy their guns with a legit ID because they are not criminals.
Grimsun
Chrit

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01/21/2013 12:13 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Never fall for the numbers games they play. Remember @ 2million crimes are stopped every year by law abiding gun owners, of that 800,000 of those the gun used to stop the crime is never fired. How many go unreported also.


There are about @75,000,000 hand guns in the US and 7,500 are used in a crime each year.





[link to www.cdc.gov]

[link to www.cdc.gov]
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Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:16 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Nice try shill. Your link is "firearm deaths per 100000", nothing to do with crime. Alaska is second. Lots of hunting accidents and suicidez
Hawaii is #1 in per capita drownings. Ban the ocean!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24659056


Just show me some better numbers then. I tried to find one that took out suicides.
 Quoting: Grimsun


There are no sources that take out:

1. Suicides
2. Police shootings
3. Justified shootings (self-defense)
4. Accidents

It's just the way the FBI chooses to categorize the data which can be very misleading
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 12:16 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Never fall for the numbers games they play. Remember @ 2million crimes are stopped every year by law abiding gun owners, of that 800,000 of those the gun used to stop the crime is never fired. How many go unreported also.


There are about @75,000,000 hand guns in the US and 7,500 are used in a crime each year.





[link to www.cdc.gov]

[link to www.cdc.gov]
 Quoting: Chrit


I don't disagree with that. Good guys with guns = good. On a side note I love that they classify suicide as "unintentional" lol...

Also, bad guys commit crimes with guns without firing a shot too.
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 12:18 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Still no one has answered my questions. Why would it be good to have more guns a neighborhood like the one I described?
 Quoting: Grimsun


I'll answer your question. "Good" is not arrived at by eliminating individual freedoms via governmental force. In fact "evil" is attained by mandating, legislating or restricting individual freedoms.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


But you are still free to buy a gun are you not? I'm only simply saying I am fine with a few extra hoops if it will deter a crackhead from purchasing a gun at Walmart with cash and then committing a crime.
 Quoting: Grimsun


Crackheads can get guns through other channels they will just buy them from other criminals. In fact, the profits then go to support more criminal activities/wealth. It also means they need to perform more crime to gain the additional money necessary for the cost discrepancy.

Are you proposing to give criminal cartels government subsidies via legislation?

.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 12:23 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Still no one has answered my questions. Why would it be good to have more guns a neighborhood like the one I described?
 Quoting: Grimsun


I'll answer your question. "Good" is not arrived at by eliminating individual freedoms via governmental force. In fact "evil" is attained by mandating, legislating or restricting individual freedoms.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


But you are still free to buy a gun are you not? I'm only simply saying I am fine with a few extra hoops if it will deter a crackhead from purchasing a gun at Walmart with cash and then committing a crime.
 Quoting: Grimsun


Crackheads can get guns through other channels they will just buy them from other criminals. In fact, the profits then go to support more criminal activities/wealth. It also means they need to perform more crime to gain the additional money necessary for the cost discrepancy.

Are you proposing to give criminal cartels government subsidies via legislation?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


Hah, that made me chuckle. Look, we all know they can acquire it other ways but it's more difficult. Most of these crackheads aren't connected in some underground organized crime network either. I mean you're not advocating we start selling 6 shots in the quickie mart are you?

hf
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 12:25 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
I must say I'm pleasantly surprised at the mostly intelligent and civil discourse!

cheers
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 12:26 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
If you subtract the gun-related crimes committed by inner city negroes, then the gun-related crime rate of the US is the same as that of Belgium.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32284139


I think it has to do with inner city poverty, not race.
 Quoting: Grimsun


bsflag

So tired of hearing how everybody is responsible for the way the blacks behave.

Fuck off, OP.
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
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