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I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 32731918
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01/21/2013 12:28 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Still no one has answered my questions. Why would it be good to have more guns a neighborhood like the one I described?
 Quoting: Grimsun


I'll answer your question. "Good" is not arrived at by eliminating individual freedoms via governmental force. In fact "evil" is attained by mandating, legislating or restricting individual freedoms.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


But you are still free to buy a gun are you not? I'm only simply saying I am fine with a few extra hoops if it will deter a crackhead from purchasing a gun at Walmart with cash and then committing a crime.
 Quoting: Grimsun


The best deterant is capitol punishment for capitol crimes.
You will not deter ANYONE with a law. You only deter by punishment and taking the repeats out of the equasion.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 12:28 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
If you subtract the gun-related crimes committed by inner city negroes, then the gun-related crime rate of the US is the same as that of Belgium.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32284139


I think it has to do with inner city poverty, not race.
 Quoting: Grimsun


bsflag

So tired of hearing how everybody is responsible for the way the blacks behave.

Fuck off, OP.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32725783


Hey bud, we have poor white people around here and guess what.. They commit just as many crimes as any other race on the fringes of society, addicted to substances.
Grimsun
****SUPERFLY****

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01/21/2013 12:29 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
How would you like to have your brains bashed with a baseball bat where you remember most of it, sit in a hospital bed drooling in your lap, till finally one day you stop breathing? Yeah such a more human way to be a victim , huh? Pfft
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:29 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
...


I'll answer your question. "Good" is not arrived at by eliminating individual freedoms via governmental force. In fact "evil" is attained by mandating, legislating or restricting individual freedoms.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


But you are still free to buy a gun are you not? I'm only simply saying I am fine with a few extra hoops if it will deter a crackhead from purchasing a gun at Walmart with cash and then committing a crime.
 Quoting: Grimsun


Crackheads can get guns through other channels they will just buy them from other criminals. In fact, the profits then go to support more criminal activities/wealth. It also means they need to perform more crime to gain the additional money necessary for the cost discrepancy.

Are you proposing to give criminal cartels government subsidies via legislation?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


Hah, that made me chuckle. Look, we all know they can acquire it other ways but it's more difficult. Most of these crackheads aren't connected in some underground organized crime network either. I mean you're not advocating we start selling 6 shots in the quickie mart are you?

hf
 Quoting: Grimsun


What do you mean they aren't connected? They buy crack, that is illegal right? Then they buy crack from criminals. Black markets are loose connections, but the money is funneled up to the cartel. Nowadays that is most likely banks, but that is another topic.

I'm not advocating anything from governmental force/coercion as you are. I am simply stating that our constitution means rights applied to ALL PEOPLE of the United States. Limiting freedoms to individuals in the USA is tyrannical, fascist and as all command and control systems are fallacies, they end in disaster.

Liberty means everyone not just some who are socially or economically "better" than others.

.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:30 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Still no one has answered my questions. Why would it be good to have more guns a neighborhood like the one I described?
 Quoting: Grimsun


I'll answer your question. "Good" is not arrived at by eliminating individual freedoms via governmental force. In fact "evil" is attained by mandating, legislating or restricting individual freedoms.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


But you are still free to buy a gun are you not? I'm only simply saying I am fine with a few extra hoops if it will deter a crackhead from purchasing a gun at Walmart with cash and then committing a crime.
 Quoting: Grimsun


The best deterant is capitol punishment for capitol crimes.
You will not deter ANYONE with a law. You only deter by punishment and taking the repeats out of the equasion.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32731918


And the suicide pills bigpharma and their lacky dog shit docs push.
Saw today more murders by medicated zombies.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:32 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
If you subtract the gun-related crimes committed by inner city negroes, then the gun-related crime rate of the US is the same as that of Belgium.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32284139


I think it has to do with inner city poverty, not race.
 Quoting: Grimsun


bsflag

So tired of hearing how everybody is responsible for the way the blacks behave.

Fuck off, OP.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32725783


Hey bud, we have poor white people around here and guess what.. They commit just as many crimes as any other race on the fringes of society, addicted to substances.
 Quoting: Grimsun


bsflag

You are full of fail today.
Grimsun (OP)

User ID: 26508846
United States
01/21/2013 12:42 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
...


But you are still free to buy a gun are you not? I'm only simply saying I am fine with a few extra hoops if it will deter a crackhead from purchasing a gun at Walmart with cash and then committing a crime.
 Quoting: Grimsun


Crackheads can get guns through other channels they will just buy them from other criminals. In fact, the profits then go to support more criminal activities/wealth. It also means they need to perform more crime to gain the additional money necessary for the cost discrepancy.

Are you proposing to give criminal cartels government subsidies via legislation?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


Hah, that made me chuckle. Look, we all know they can acquire it other ways but it's more difficult. Most of these crackheads aren't connected in some underground organized crime network either. I mean you're not advocating we start selling 6 shots in the quickie mart are you?

hf
 Quoting: Grimsun


What do you mean they aren't connected? They buy crack, that is illegal right? Then they buy crack from criminals. Black markets are loose connections, but the money is funneled up to the cartel. Nowadays that is most likely banks, but that is another topic.

I'm not advocating anything from governmental force/coercion as you are. I am simply stating that our constitution means rights applied to ALL PEOPLE of the United States. Limiting freedoms to individuals in the USA is tyrannical, fascist and as all command and control systems are fallacies, they end in disaster.

Liberty means everyone not just some who are socially or economically "better" than others.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


So what you're saying is, your against any or all restrictions? Why not let 12 year olds and multiple DUI convicts drive then? We can't restrict their individual freedoms right? In fact why bother having a driver's license at all?

Some restrictions are good. Like No glass bottles at concerts for example or no driving drunk. See, no one's saying you cant have a drink at a concert or that you can't drive your car. It's called ground rules.
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 12:44 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
...


Crackheads can get guns through other channels they will just buy them from other criminals. In fact, the profits then go to support more criminal activities/wealth. It also means they need to perform more crime to gain the additional money necessary for the cost discrepancy.

Are you proposing to give criminal cartels government subsidies via legislation?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


Hah, that made me chuckle. Look, we all know they can acquire it other ways but it's more difficult. Most of these crackheads aren't connected in some underground organized crime network either. I mean you're not advocating we start selling 6 shots in the quickie mart are you?

hf
 Quoting: Grimsun


What do you mean they aren't connected? They buy crack, that is illegal right? Then they buy crack from criminals. Black markets are loose connections, but the money is funneled up to the cartel. Nowadays that is most likely banks, but that is another topic.

I'm not advocating anything from governmental force/coercion as you are. I am simply stating that our constitution means rights applied to ALL PEOPLE of the United States. Limiting freedoms to individuals in the USA is tyrannical, fascist and as all command and control systems are fallacies, they end in disaster.

Liberty means everyone not just some who are socially or economically "better" than others.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


So what you're saying is, your against any or all restrictions? Why not let 12 year olds and multiple DUI convicts drive then? We can't restrict their individual freedoms right? In fact why bother having a driver's license at all?

Some restrictions are good. Like No glass bottles at concerts for example or no driving drunk. See, no one's saying you cant have a drink at a concert or that you can't drive your car. It's called ground rules.
 Quoting: Grimsun


shillshillshill
Grimsun (OP)

User ID: 26508846
United States
01/21/2013 12:45 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
...


I think it has to do with inner city poverty, not race.
 Quoting: Grimsun


bsflag

So tired of hearing how everybody is responsible for the way the blacks behave.

Fuck off, OP.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32725783


Hey bud, we have poor white people around here and guess what.. They commit just as many crimes as any other race on the fringes of society, addicted to substances.
 Quoting: Grimsun


bsflag

You are full of fail today.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32725783


Not sure where you live but Good Ol' boys around here range from law abiding to criminal. Rural, white meth heads will break into your house, steal your shit, drive off in your car and bash your brains in with a hammer they stole too.
Grimsun
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:46 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
Obvious Tactic is Obvious.

Of course you are pro 2nd Amendment and not a shill arguing for consensus.

Give up already.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 12:46 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
...


Hah, that made me chuckle. Look, we all know they can acquire it other ways but it's more difficult. Most of these crackheads aren't connected in some underground organized crime network either. I mean you're not advocating we start selling 6 shots in the quickie mart are you?

hf
 Quoting: Grimsun


What do you mean they aren't connected? They buy crack, that is illegal right? Then they buy crack from criminals. Black markets are loose connections, but the money is funneled up to the cartel. Nowadays that is most likely banks, but that is another topic.

I'm not advocating anything from governmental force/coercion as you are. I am simply stating that our constitution means rights applied to ALL PEOPLE of the United States. Limiting freedoms to individuals in the USA is tyrannical, fascist and as all command and control systems are fallacies, they end in disaster.

Liberty means everyone not just some who are socially or economically "better" than others.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


So what you're saying is, your against any or all restrictions? Why not let 12 year olds and multiple DUI convicts drive then? We can't restrict their individual freedoms right? In fact why bother having a driver's license at all?

Some restrictions are good. Like No glass bottles at concerts for example or no driving drunk. See, no one's saying you cant have a drink at a concert or that you can't drive your car. It's called ground rules.
 Quoting: Grimsun


shillshillshill
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32725783


Wow 3 alerts?! With that kind of alarm you'd think it would go off a little sooner. I made my OP like an hour ago, but nice try.
Grimsun
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:48 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
WalMart does not sell handguns.

How many crackheads are shooting each other with the scoped bolt action hunting rifles that WalMart does sell?
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:57 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
bsflag
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:57 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
...


Crackheads can get guns through other channels they will just buy them from other criminals. In fact, the profits then go to support more criminal activities/wealth. It also means they need to perform more crime to gain the additional money necessary for the cost discrepancy.

Are you proposing to give criminal cartels government subsidies via legislation?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


Hah, that made me chuckle. Look, we all know they can acquire it other ways but it's more difficult. Most of these crackheads aren't connected in some underground organized crime network either. I mean you're not advocating we start selling 6 shots in the quickie mart are you?

hf
 Quoting: Grimsun


What do you mean they aren't connected? They buy crack, that is illegal right? Then they buy crack from criminals. Black markets are loose connections, but the money is funneled up to the cartel. Nowadays that is most likely banks, but that is another topic.

I'm not advocating anything from governmental force/coercion as you are. I am simply stating that our constitution means rights applied to ALL PEOPLE of the United States. Limiting freedoms to individuals in the USA is tyrannical, fascist and as all command and control systems are fallacies, they end in disaster.

Liberty means everyone not just some who are socially or economically "better" than others.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


So what you're saying is, your against any or all restrictions? Why not let 12 year olds and multiple DUI convicts drive then? We can't restrict their individual freedoms right? In fact why bother having a driver's license at all?

Some restrictions are good. Like No glass bottles at concerts for example or no driving drunk. See, no one's saying you cant have a drink at a concert or that you can't drive your car. It's called ground rules.
 Quoting: Grimsun


Let's see no glass bottles at concerts. Someone owns that concert venue, it is their property, so they are justified in making limitations on what can or cannot be done on their property. I have no problem with that. If you don't like the restriction then don't go to the concert.

Letting 12 year olds drive cars. I don't think that when automobiles were invented there were age restrictions on driving vehicles. In fact, there were no required "driver's license". In fact I would say that is a direct limitation on liberty as outlined by the constitution, limiting people's mobility is a transgression of our constitution. However, it may be debatable at what age a person "becomes" a person of the United States. I personally would say that if a person can vote at 18, then they are also a "person of the United States".

If someone is driving drunk and causes harm to another person or their property in an accident, then they should have to pay reparations to the party or individuals offended/violated. As it is now our legal code provides no such compensation. In fact, it is more like another tax where the violator either pays fines to the state or they are imprisoned placing the cost/burden of their incarceration on the taxpayers through the prison system. So, then the individual(s) must pay for another persons indiscretion.

Basically all this legal code enacted to circumnavigate individual freedom places further burdens on society or individuals. It does this through the guise of "protecting us from harm" but when harm is done there is no individual protection only cost to the individual firstly through the damage to person or property and secondly through punishment of the violator which cost is shifted again to the individual or tax payer and enriches individuals in the legal system.

The lie is that we can eliminate risk or harm by reducing individual freedom. When I think risk constrains or reigns in the potential for harm as then the violator must actually be held to account/payment for their damages caused to other individuals.

.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 12:59 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
"Now with that said, I have an open mind and I'm also a numbers guy. I've been doing my own research and have come to some conclusions.."



Numbers just don't matter with the 2nd amendment. The 2nd amendment is so easy to understand that you need help to misunderstand it.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:00 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
If you subtract the gun-related crimes committed by inner city negroes, then the gun-related crime rate of the US is the same as that of Belgium.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32284139


No, it's WAY lower in Belgium. We don't have a gun tradition.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32679658


No, just a molesting little kids tradition.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:03 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
"Now with that said, I have an open mind and I'm also a numbers guy. I've been doing my own research and have come to some conclusions.."



Numbers just don't matter with the 2nd amendment. The 2nd amendment is so easy to understand that you need help to misunderstand it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32593508


Don't bother to feed this troll. He is working from a script.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:06 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
:gunstat4444:
 Quoting: ****SUPERFLY****


the Op is disinfo, wanna be spin agent. gtfo
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:07 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
...


What do you mean they aren't connected? They buy crack, that is illegal right? Then they buy crack from criminals. Black markets are loose connections, but the money is funneled up to the cartel. Nowadays that is most likely banks, but that is another topic.

I'm not advocating anything from governmental force/coercion as you are. I am simply stating that our constitution means rights applied to ALL PEOPLE of the United States. Limiting freedoms to individuals in the USA is tyrannical, fascist and as all command and control systems are fallacies, they end in disaster.

Liberty means everyone not just some who are socially or economically "better" than others.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


So what you're saying is, your against any or all restrictions? Why not let 12 year olds and multiple DUI convicts drive then? We can't restrict their individual freedoms right? In fact why bother having a driver's license at all?

Some restrictions are good. Like No glass bottles at concerts for example or no driving drunk. See, no one's saying you cant have a drink at a concert or that you can't drive your car. It's called ground rules.
 Quoting: Grimsun


shillshillshill
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32725783


Wow 3 alerts?! With that kind of alarm you'd think it would go off a little sooner. I made my OP like an hour ago, but nice try.
 Quoting: Grimsun


Looks like I'm not the only one who noticed.

Thread fail. lolatu loosa
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:08 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
WalMart does not sell handguns.

How many crackheads are shooting each other with the scoped bolt action hunting rifles that WalMart does sell?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23761243


OP doesn't appreciate you bringing critical thinking into his thread.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:09 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
:gunstat4444:
 Quoting: ****SUPERFLY****


the Op is disinfo, wanna be spin agent. gtfo
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20086645


Nailed it!
Grimsun (OP)

User ID: 26508846
United States
01/21/2013 01:10 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
gunstat4444
 Quoting: ****SUPERFLY****


the Op is disinfo, wanna be spin agent. gtfo
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20086645


Really, you think so? Well I will say this. I'm against any kind of restrictions on clip size or ammo restrictions. I think that's a non-issue. I don't believe in gun free zones, that's just a soft target for criminals. I do agree with the NRA that a good guy with a gun is about the only thing that would have prevented the tragedy that started this debate. So do I still fit in your box?
Grimsun
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01/21/2013 01:11 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
For someone who bumped his own thread a dozen times, OP sure did dissappear quick when he was called out.

Rock on GLP!
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:11 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
I feel the same, but then I see car accident deth rates are much much higher than gun violence so perhaps your government should ban cars too!
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:13 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
I feel the same, but then I see car accident deth rates are much much higher than gun violence so perhaps your government should ban cars too!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5643861


They should also ban Big Macs by this logic as heart disease kills more people than guns or automobile accidents.

.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:14 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
:gunstat4444:
 Quoting: ****SUPERFLY****


the Op is disinfo, wanna be spin agent. gtfo
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20086645


Really, you think so? Well I will say this. I'm against any kind of restrictions on clip size or ammo restrictions. I think that's a non-issue. I don't believe in gun free zones, that's just a soft target for criminals. I do agree with the NRA that a good guy with a gun is about the only thing that would have prevented the tragedy that started this debate. So do I still fit in your box?
 Quoting: Grimsun


But but...he's one of us. lol

Shills and disinfo agents are soooo obvious.

Your second grade tactics won't work at this site, asshole.

Beat it.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2013 01:14 PM
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
For someone who bumped his own thread a dozen times, OP sure did dissappear quick when he was called out.

Rock on GLP!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31855582


rockon
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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
:gunstat4444:
 Quoting: ****SUPERFLY****


the Op is disinfo, wanna be spin agent. gtfo
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20086645


Really, you think so? Well I will say this. I'm against any kind of restrictions on clip size or ammo restrictions. I think that's a non-issue. I don't believe in gun free zones, that's just a soft target for criminals. I do agree with the NRA that a good guy with a gun is about the only thing that would have prevented the tragedy that started this debate. So do I still fit in your box?
 Quoting: Grimsun


Yes you do. Your mission is get consensus on banning / confiscating 'assult weapons'. It is still an infringment on the 2nd Amendment and the Rights of The People.

Regardless of the consensus building and agreeing with a few of the tennents of pro 2nd advocates, you are still working to take away American's Constutional Rights.

As I said before, Obvious Tactic is Obvious.
Grimsun (OP)

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United States
01/21/2013 01:16 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
WalMart does not sell handguns.

How many crackheads are shooting each other with the scoped bolt action hunting rifles that WalMart does sell?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23761243


OP doesn't appreciate you bringing critical thinking into his thread.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32735277


Ahh yes critical thinking.. Is blindly adhering to your own ideology with disregard for new information or information that contradicts your presuppositions considered thinking?

That's just the example I choose to use not so much because of the store but the neighborhood it's associated with, and yes crimes are committed with shotguns, and pawn shops are a plenty in neighborhoods such as these.
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/21/2013 01:18 PM

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Re: I'm Pro Second Amendment, However I Can't Ignore the Numbers
gunstat4444
 Quoting: ****SUPERFLY****


the Op is disinfo, wanna be spin agent. gtfo
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20086645


Really, you think so? Well I will say this. I'm against any kind of restrictions on clip size or ammo restrictions. I think that's a non-issue. I don't believe in gun free zones, that's just a soft target for criminals. I do agree with the NRA that a good guy with a gun is about the only thing that would have prevented the tragedy that started this debate. So do I still fit in your box?
 Quoting: Grimsun


Yes you do. Your mission is get consensus on banning / confiscating 'assult weapons'. It is still an infringment on the 2nd Amendment and the Rights of The People.

Regardless of the consensus building and agreeing with a few of the tennents of pro 2nd advocates, you are still working to take away American's Constutional Rights.

As I said before, Obvious Tactic is Obvious.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31855582


Negative sir. If anyone is redirecting consensus it would be you. Trying to discredit, or say I stand for something I never said. You are the only one who said anything about "assault weapons". Wish I could afford one, but my wife would eat me alive. The one I want is $1100.
Grimsun

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