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The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics

 
emerald eye
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01/21/2013 11:28 PM

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The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics, (commonly available on eBay and other online sources) common use, dosage, and some side effects:

This information was complied for my family and friends to print and save , but as I am posting it here, I must make the following disclaimers:

The following is for entertainment and discussion purposes, ONLY seek professional medical guidance before attempting to diagnose or treat any condition. The same rules apply to veterinary medicine. Also, I do not recommend the ingestion of any product not specifically manufactured for human use, unless it is an emergency situation, and no other viable alternative exists.

In addition, people with kidney, liver problems ,and many other serious health issues may be at increased risk while using antibiotics and should consult with a qualified health care provider prior to considering any antibiotic usage. Some medications may also adversely interact with antibiotics and these should be discussed with your health care provider prior to considering any antibiotic usage.



Important notes:
This list is not meant to be all inclusive. All dosages given are approximate and adjustable.
Antibiotic dosages may vary considerably with age, health issues, and the specific conditions being treated. In general lower dosages are preferable in milder situations, while higher dosages are often necessary in more severe situations. Some antibiotics may make birth control pills less effective. All antibiotics have side effects, including disruptions in bowel and other flora. This problem may possibly be diminished by the appropriate use of probiotic products and limiting the use of antibiotics to only what is needed. One of the most useful probiotics seems to be Florastor.

[link to www.costco.com]

A serious (although thankfully uncommon) consequence of most antibiotic use is the overgrowth of Clostridium difficile , otherwise known as "C. Diff". This can be life threatening and produces a watery diarrhea, 10-15 times per day, often accompanied by fever, and sometimes by blood in the stool. If this condition is suspected, medical attention should be sought immediately. If no medical care is available, the antibiotic Metronidazole or Flagyl (on this list) may be used in conjunction with Florastor to treat this in conjunction with fluid and electrolyte replacements. The antibiotic Vancomycin (not on this list) may also be used in treatment.




Ampicillin:
Adult dosage (oral) 500 mg every 8-12 hours. In children the dose is around: 50 mg per 2.2 lbs of body weight (or per kg) orally, 4 times daily. For dogs a common dose is 5 to 10 mg per pound three or four times a day. The common uses are bacterial pneumonia, bronchitis, ear, lung, skin, and urinary tract infections. (It doesn't work for the common cold.) Contraindications: ALLERGY TO ANY PENICILLIN DRUGS (can be life threatening). It is generally OK in pregnancy (category B). Side effects: Diarrhea, stomach upset and rash. If a severe rash develops or the diarrhea becomes watery or bloody, stop immediately, start or continue Florastor and seek medical help immediately.


Cephalexin (Keflex)
Dosage (oral): Adults: 500 mg every 6 to 8 hours. Children: 10 mg/ per 2.2 lbs of body weight (or kg) orally every 6 to 8 hours . In dogs, around 10 mg per pound of body weight every 8-12 hours (50 lb dog= 500 mg every 8 to 12 hours) Uses: skin and respiratory infections. Also useful for ear, urinary, and bone infections. It is generally OK in pregnancy (category B). Side effects: Diarrhea, (usually mild), stomach upset and rash. Stop immediately if rash develops or diarrhea becomes watery or bloody, treat with probiotic (Florastor) and seek medical attention immediately.


Clindamycin (Cleocin):
Dosage: (oral) 300 mg every 6 to 8 hours in adults, in children it is generally 2-8mg/ per 2.2 lbs of body weight (or kg) orally every 6 to 8 hours. The usual dose for dogs and cats is 5mg-15mg per pound every 12 hours for 7 to 10 days Do not take concomitantly with erythromycin. Works mainly for anaerobic (deep tissue) or abscess type infections, but can also be used for severe respiratory, skin, and tissue infections. It is generally OK in pregnancy (category B). Side effects: This is one that we really worry about if significant diarrhea develops and "C Diff". Stop immediately if rash develops or diarrhea becomes watery or bloody, treat with probiotic (Florastor) and seek medical attention immediately. IF MEDICAL HELP IS NOT AVAILABLE and diarrhea is frequent, watery, or bloody (or the patient has a fever) consider also using Metronidazole (Flagyl) 500 mg orally every six to eight hours for 10 to 14 days.


Ciprofloxin:
Dosage: (oral) 500 mg every 12 hours. In children the usual oral dosage for treating serious urinary tract or kidney infections is 10 mg to 20 mg per kg of body weight (about 4.5 mg to 9.1 mg per pound) every 12 hours. The usual dose of ciprofloxacin for treating anthrax exposure in children is 15 mg per kg of body weight (about 6.8 mg per pound) every 12 hours for oral ciprofloxacin The typical dose administered to dogs is 5 to 7 mg per pound per day (11 to 15 mg/kg per day) orally. It is used in pneumonia; gonorrhea; infectious diarrhea, typhoid fever, inhalation anthrax, bone, joint, skin, urinary tract infections, and TB. It is probably OK (category C) in pregnancy if use is justified. Small risks of nausea, vomiting and rash. Rare risk of tendon rupture.


Metronidazole (Flagyl) :
Dosage (oral) 500-750 mg every 8 hours. For children, the dose is usually 10 milligrams (mg) per 2.2 pounds or kilogram (kg) of body weight per day, every 8 hours. For Giardia in dogs give 7 to 14 milligrams per pound that the dog weighs for five to seven days. For anaerobic infection, give 11 to 23 milligrams per pound that the dog weighs two to four times a day. Metronidazole is an antibiotic effective against anaerobic bacteria (abscesses) and some parasites. It may be used to treat intestinal parasites such as Giardia infections (from drinking contaminated water) amebic liver abscess, and amebic dysentery as well as "C Diff", so it would be a good choice for bloody diarrhea and most abscesses. It is generally OK in pregnancy (category B).Side effects: nausea, abdominal pain,
THIS ANTIBIOTIC IS INCOMPATABLE WITH ALCOHOL, IT WILL MAKE YOU VOMIT IF YOU HAVE ALCOHOL IN YOUR SYSTEM WHILE USING IT.



Erythromycin:
Dosage: Adults: 250 mg every 6 hours or 500 mg every 12 hours. Children: 30-50 mg daily per 2.2 pounds of body weight (or kg), divided into equal doses. Uses: Useful for treating respiratory infections, whooping cough, Urinary infections and STDs. Also useful for eye infections, lysteria, and legionaries disease. Along with its sister drug, azithromycin (Zithromax), it may also be the most useful in the treatment of respiratory infections since it's category (macrolide) has been shown to have some benefit in common respiratory viral as well as bacterial infections. (Since I know some well meaning GLPer will jump down my throat over this statement, please see further discussion contained in the post following this one before you hit the keyboard.) It is generally OK in pregnancy (category B). Side effects: stomach cramps and nausea. BTW more useful info in a TSHTF scenario, a single 1 gm (1,000mg) dose of azithromycin (Zithromax) orally should treat urethritis and cervicitis due to chlamydia and most forms of gonorrhea. Azithromycin is also available as a "fish antibiotic" on eBay, although somewhat more costly than most.


Sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim (Septra DS, Bactrim DS)
Dosage: One tablet every 12 hours. Children: not recommended in less than 2 months: 3.6mg/pound per day trimethoprim (18mg/pound per day of sulfamethoxazole) in 2 divided doses at 12 hour intervals for 5 days (shigellosis) or 10 days for ear infections and urinary infections. It is probably OK (category C) in pregnancy if use is justified. Uses: for recurrent urinary infections, bronchitis, traveler's diarrhea, shigellosis, ear infections and pneumonia. Also useful for Lyme disease MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus ) Side effects: Photosensitivity and rash. Stop immediately if a rash develops, especially face or upper body, as this can be serious.


Doxycycline (Vibramycin):
Dosage is generally 100 mg orally every 12 hours for most uses. CHILDREN younger than age 8 CANNOT TAKE this medication due to the risk of tooth discoloration, and it should NOT BE USED BY WOMEN WHO ARE PREGNANT OR BREAST FEEDING. The usual dose of doxycycline in dogs is 2-5mg/pound every 12 to 24 hours. The usual dose of doxycycline in cats is 2mg/pound every 12 hours. Again, it should not be given to pregnant animals or puppies. Doxycycline may commonly be used for urinary tract infections, lyme disease, skin infections, common genital infections, acne, gonorrhea, chlamydia, and periodontitis (gum disease). It may also be used to treat anthrax (after inhalation exposure), Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and used to prevent malaria. Doxycycline is FDA pregnancy category D. Do not use doxycycline if you are pregnant or breast feeding. DO NOT TAKE IF EXPIRED. Side effects: Doxycycline can make you more sensitive to the sun, and burn more easily, may cause diarrhea, itching and mouth sores. Calcium supplements, antacids, and dairy products may somewhat block the absorption of Doxycycline.



Additional Notes:

1. If any sort of fever due to INFECTION is suspected and medical care is not available (or even if it is), DO NOT USE ASPIRIN, ESPECIALLY IN CHILDREN. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) or Ibuprofen (Motrin, Advil, Aleve) types of fever reducers are generally safer to use in these circumstances.

2. For most common uses, a week to 10 days of antibiotic therapy is generally sufficient, depending upon improvement and circumstances. Any antibiotic should be stopped earlier, however, whenever any detrimental side effect is observed, unless maintaining therapy is essential and alternatives are not available. These decisions should, of course, be made by a qualified heath care provider whenever possible.

3. In stocking a medical BOB on a limited budget, I would pick first Cephalexin (Keflex), second Metronidazole (Flagyl), third Erythromycin or azithromycin (Zithromax) if you can afford the more expensive of the two, fourth Sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim (Septra DS, Bactrim DS). and fifth Ciprofloxin or Doxycycline. No matter what my budget, I would make sure to have Florastor. Those are my picks, but you should check with your health care provider to see if you or people in your family have and counterindications to any of these, and then choose accordingly.



Resources:

[link to clinicalpharmacy.ucsf.edu]

[link to www.cpnonline.org]

[link to www.aafp.org]

P.S.
I am also putting together an emergency trauma guide for lacerations, chest trauma and emergency suturing techniques , but I don't know if I have the guts to post it here... maybe, depending upon how this goes...hf
I really want to help people be able to help themselves if TSHTF, but here are so many considerations...I guess I will wait to see how this thread goes, and maybe post it when finished.) Also I am aware of colloidal silver, oregano and other products, but this thread is to discuss antibiotic therapy for those interested in this particular topic. I know there are other good threads on this, I am just giving the list I compiled, FWIW.

P.S.S.
I'm tired, so I am sure there are a few typos. If you spot something please let me know and I will double check it.
smile_kiss Hugs to all.

Last Edited by emerald eye on 01/23/2013 01:59 AM
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


The only way that anyone gets something for nothing, is that someone else has given up something for nothing.
emerald eye (OP)
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01/21/2013 11:35 PM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
As promised:
Macrolide antibiotic group antiviral effects:


Disclaimer:
The following is for entertainment and discussion purposes, ONLY seek professional medical guidance before attempting to diagnose or treat any condition. The same rules apply to veterinary medicine. Also, I do not recommend the ingestion of any product not specifically manufactured for human use, unless it is an emergency situation, and no other viable alternative exists.

In addition, people with kidney, liver problems ,and many other serious health issues may be at increased risk while using antibiotics and should consult with a qualified health care provider prior to considering any antibiotic usage. Some medications may also adversely interact with antibiotics and these should be discussed with your health care provider prior to considering any antibiotic usage.



Macrolide antibiotic group antiviral effects:

In response to the common refrain "antibiotics don't treat viral illness", while generally true, there are a few a categories of notable exception, including the macrolide family of antibiotics primarily for viral respiratory infections including influenza and RSV (respiratory syncytial virus). This effect probably stems mainly from their anti-inflammatory properties, and demodulation of cytokine storm. Two of the commonly used macrolides are available as "fish antibiotics" erythromycin (cheaper and possibly less effective, and azithromycin (more expensive but possibly worth the extra cost). In a TSHTF scenario, it might be wise to use a macrolide for the treatment of a severe respiratory infection of unknown type, even if there is a possibly that it is a viral respiratory infection.

[link to www.hindawi.com]

From the link:

"Macrolides have received considerable attention for their anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory actions beyond the antibacterial effect. These two properties may ensure some efficacy in a wide spectrum of respiratory viral infections."

"We performed an electronic article search through PubMed using combinations of the following keywords: macrolides (azithromycin, clarithromycin, dirithromycin, erythromycin, roxithromycin, and telithromycin) and respiratory viral infection (respiratory syncytial virus, rhinovirus, adenovirus, metapneumovirus, influenza virus, and parainfluenza virus). "

"As macrolides have anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory effect, the scenario thus depicted is sufficiently suggestive to consider the possible use of these drugs in respiratory viral infection presenting an inflammatory basis."


Also,
"Several macrolide antibiotics are reported to inhibit airway mucus hypersecretion induced by several stimuli."

"Macrolides possess anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory properties extending beyond their antibacterial activity. They down regulate the inflammatory cascade, attenuate excessive cytokine production in viral infections, and they may reduce virus-related exacerbations. Based on existing evidence, macrolides may be considered as promising treatment option in treatment of respiratory viral infections. However, confirmation in larger series, as well as identification of their precise mechanism affecting virus-induced inflammation or viral replication, is still awaited."


[link to www.hindawi.com]




"Erythromycin Inhibits Rhinovirus Infection in Cultured
Human Tracheal Epithelial Cells"


[link to ajrccm.atsjournals.org]



"Clarithromycin Inhibits Type A Seasonal Influenza Virus
Infection in Human Airway Epithelial Cells."


[link to jpet.aspetjournals.org]




"Macrolide antibiotics inhibit respiratory syncytial virus infection in human airway epithelial cells"

[link to www.sciencedirect.com]



Also, in summary:
"The respiratory viral infections such as rhinovirus, respiratory syncytial virus, and influenza virus, among others, cause the high mortality rate through an overactive inflammatory response. Severity of airway viral infection is also accepted to be closely related with virus-induced hyperproduction of both inflammatory cytokines and chemokines, which are responsible for the development of fatal clinical symptoms such as massive pulmonary edema, acute bronchopneumonia, and acute respiratory distress syndrome. Since there is much evidence showing the suppressive effects of macrolide antibiotics on hyperproduction of inflammatory cytokines, macrolide antibiotics may be considered as promising treatment option in the treatment of airway viral infections."

[link to www.hindawi.com]

Far less than 50% of any article referenced was quoted, in accordance with GLP standards. hf
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


The only way that anyone gets something for nothing, is that someone else has given up something for nothing.
PENG

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01/21/2013 11:45 PM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
I asked my doctor one day about his. So I wasn't too crazy because he's had the question before.

So he says, yeah, in general they can be used as it obviously is the antibiotic humans use. Only two things he mentioned: 1 was the pharmaceutical quality, where they are manufactured. The standards are not the same (think meningitis), and 2: the biggest difference are the binding agents. Fish meds are meant to be dissolved in water and the binding agent is very different than human meds as we have acid to break down the meds. So he said dosing is very difficult. Usually the problem is that by the time you would take your last dosage, because of the different binding agent, the first dosage would just be taking effect.
He didn't seem concerned about the actual danger, just the effectiveness. But, if things really really really got bad, it's worth a stab I suppose. I just wouldn't be taking them to save money. Lol.
"May the road rise up to meet you.... May the wind be always at your back..."
Epic Beard Guy
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01/22/2013 12:00 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
I asked my doctor one day about his. So I wasn't too crazy because he's had the question before.

So he says, yeah, in general they can be used as it obviously is the antibiotic humans use. Only two things he mentioned: 1 was the pharmaceutical quality, where they are manufactured. The standards are not the same (think meningitis), and 2: the biggest difference are the binding agents. Fish meds are meant to be dissolved in water and the binding agent is very different than human meds as we have acid to break down the meds. So he said dosing is very difficult. Usually the problem is that by the time you would take your last dosage, because of the different binding agent, the first dosage would just be taking effect.
He didn't seem concerned about the actual danger, just the effectiveness. But, if things really really really got bad, it's worth a stab I suppose. I just wouldn't be taking them to save money. Lol.
 Quoting: PENG


Doctors aren't going to tell you that it's the same stuff because 1; they don't want people to doctor themselves, 2; most of them still believe everything the big pharmas tell them. A lot of fish drugs started out being human drugs. Even though the expiration dates are a scam, they can't sell them for human consumption after the arbitrary date passes. Government studies have proven that most drugs are so stable that they are still the same 10 to 20 years after the expiration date.
Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
Epic Beard Guy
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5* and good karma for a great thread that will save lives!
Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 12:05 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
I am going to tell you honestly (and this is just my personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt), that American made fish antibiotic products that I have personally seen are visually indistinguishable from those that I have seen coming from pharmacies. That obviously doesn't mean that they are identical, but personally I cannot see any differences, even in the mg strength, color of the capsules, or consistency of the product.

But much more importantly, this is for a TSHTF situation when there are no other options available to the average person.

Sadly many doctors now days are so busy filling out the piles of required government paper work that they often seem to have little time or interest in their patients. Its a pity really, we have lost sight as a nation of what medical care really should be.hf
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


The only way that anyone gets something for nothing, is that someone else has given up something for nothing.
PENG

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01/22/2013 12:05 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
I asked my doctor one day about his. So I wasn't too crazy because he's had the question before.

So he says, yeah, in general they can be used as it obviously is the antibiotic humans use. Only two things he mentioned: 1 was the pharmaceutical quality, where they are manufactured. The standards are not the same (think meningitis), and 2: the biggest difference are the binding agents. Fish meds are meant to be dissolved in water and the binding agent is very different than human meds as we have acid to break down the meds. So he said dosing is very difficult. Usually the problem is that by the time you would take your last dosage, because of the different binding agent, the first dosage would just be taking effect.
He didn't seem concerned about the actual danger, just the effectiveness. But, if things really really really got bad, it's worth a stab I suppose. I just wouldn't be taking them to save money. Lol.
 Quoting: PENG


Doctors aren't going to tell you that it's the same stuff because 1; they don't want people to doctor themselves, 2; most of them still believe everything the big pharmas tell them. A lot of fish drugs started out being human drugs. Even though the expiration dates are a scam, they can't sell them for human consumption after the arbitrary date passes. Government studies have proven that most drugs are so stable that they are still the same 10 to 20 years after the expiration date.
 Quoting: Epic Beard Guy


Lol I knew this was coming. He wasn't trying to persuade me. He actually told me most all dry antibiotics basically have the expiration of dirt, along with most meds. He was one half dozen the other on it. BUT it's a fact that the binding agents are different which makes dosaging different in humans. That's important to know. In my post I did not say he stated they go bad. :-/

Last Edited by PENG on 01/22/2013 12:07 AM
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PENG

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01/22/2013 12:11 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
I am going to tell you honestly (and this is just my personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt), that American made fish antibiotic products that I have personally seen are visually indistinguishable from those that I have seen coming from pharmacies. That obviously doesn't mean that they are identical, but personally I cannot see any differences, even in the mg strength, color of the capsules, or consistency of the product.

But much more importantly, this is for a TSHTF situation when there are no other options available to the average person.

Sadly many doctors now days are so busy filling out the piles of required government paper work that they often seem to have little time or interest in their patients. Its a pity really, we have lost sight as a nation of what medical care really should be.hf
 Quoting: emerald eye


Absolutely. I agree that when all is at an end, I would certainy give them a go. My post must be misunderstood. It is the binding agent. It is different due to the difference in breakdown water vs acid. So the dosage is very different and is important when taking these meds. He didn't seem against it at all I also noted that he said there is no expiration on dry meds... That's not a doctor out with a conspiracy. Lol
"May the road rise up to meet you.... May the wind be always at your back..."
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 12:23 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics


Sadly many doctors now days are so busy filling out the piles of required government paper work that they often seem to have little time or interest in their patients. Its a pity really, we have lost sight as a nation of what medical care really should be.hf
 Quoting: emerald eye


Absolutely. I agree that when all is at an end, I would certainy give them a go. My post must be misunderstood. It is the binding agent. It is different due to the difference in breakdown water vs acid. So the dosage is very different and is important when taking these meds. He didn't seem against it at all I also noted that he said there is no expiration on dry meds... That's not a doctor out with a conspiracy. Lol
 Quoting: PENG

The problem is, that even if your doctor wanted to give you prescriptions to keep handy in the case of an "event", he or she would be hard pressed to do so. There is just too much regulation. The prescriptions would require a current diagnosis, or a valid reason, such as antibiotic prophylaxis for traveling in areas where certain infections are endemic.
The insurance wouldn't cover the prescriptions either, without that information, and your doctor could take a risk by not having the proper reasons documented in your medical chart.

Now with the push towards EMR or electronic medical records, the government gets to scrutinize everything that your doctor does for you. Medical privacy is gone.verysad It isn't all the doctor's fault, they are being harassed also, just in a different way.

Just my opinion of course, FWIW.
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


The only way that anyone gets something for nothing, is that someone else has given up something for nothing.
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 01:18 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
I should add that the entertaining discussion on this thread is only concerning the capsules or the tablets, that can be checked with online sources to make sure that the color and markings on the capsules and tablets are the same as the standard products, and not loose powders or other delivery systems, or products from foreign manufacturers. (Its not that I have anything against foreign manufacturers, I am just not as familiar with their products.)

This is what one manufacturer states:

"Thomas Labs makes Fish Antibiotics in many forms, including: Capsules and Tables of various strengths, pure form powder of various strengths and sizes, and single use powder packets. Each antibiotic is clearly labeled for fish use only and care should be taken when ordering to make sure you are purchasing the right dosing strength in the right form for your application."

They then go on to say:

"Fish Antibiotics Forms and Strengths.

Antibiotics in tablets or capsules- The same USP grade antibiotics produced by companies that also produce antibiotics for human use. Each tablet or capsule is labeled, imprinted, and often color coded with a special code that can be used to identify the type and strength of the antibiotics by doing a simple web search and comparison. Most all antibiotic tablets or capsules come in either 250mg or 500mg strengths and are for use in ornamental or pet fish.
"

"What are fish antibiotics?
A. Fish antibiotics are used to treat bacterial infections in fish. The antibiotics that are used to treat fish are the same or similar as the antibiotics that are provided for human use from antibiotic manufacturing companies, depending on type of antibiotic and form. Antibiotic tablets and capsules used for ornamental and pet fish are the same as the antibiotics dispensed from the local pharmacies for human use, except that they are clearly labeled for fish use only, not for human consumption.
Q. If the antibiotics for fish are the same as the USP grade antibiotics that are dispensed from human pharmacies then why are should humans not take them also?
A. The law clearly states that any antibiotic for non-human use needs to be labeled as “not for human use” regardless of application. Thomas Labs sources it’s antibiotics from the same USP grade manufacturing as antibiotics used for humans, but we are not doctor’s and do not deal in human health problems. Only a doctor can correctly prescribe antibiotics for specific need in humans. Thomas Labs will take no responsibility in the miss-use of its products made for animals. If a human is sick and needs antibiotics then it is likely that person also needs the expertise and guidance of a doctor."



[link to www.thomaslabs.com]

So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, the lawyers have had their say.ohyeah Now that note, I must repeat the disclaimer for this thread:

The following is for entertainment and discussion purposes, seek ONLY professional medical guidance before attempting to diagnose or treat any condition. The same rules apply to veterinary medicine. Also, I do not recommend the ingestion of any product not specifically manufactured for human use, unless it is an emergency situation, and no other viable alternative exists.

In addition, people with kidney, liver problems ,and many other serious health issues may be at increased risk while using antibiotics and should consult with a qualified health care provider prior to considering any antibiotic usage. Some medications may also adversely interact with antibiotics and these should be discussed with your health care provider prior to considering any antibiotic usage.




Hugs to all, hopefully this information will never become necessary to know, and I have hopefully wasted a chunk of my evening. smile_kiss

Last Edited by emerald eye on 01/22/2013 01:21 AM
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


The only way that anyone gets something for nothing, is that someone else has given up something for nothing.
Juliebean

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01/22/2013 02:11 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Thanks for the entertainment. It was very interesting.

I would like to see you post the ER info too!
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 02:32 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Thanks for the entertainment. It was very interesting.

I would like to see you post the ER info too!
 Quoting: Juliebean


You are most welcome. hf I will probably post the other entertaining information, but it is a bit technical, so I need to rework it somewhat. Nonetheless, most of it is well within the grasp of the average individual, enough so that a life could possibly be saved with a small bit of knowledge and confidence. Most of the necessary materials are available through veterinary suppliers as well, but I must be very careful with that one, so it may take me a bit of time .

Anyway, I am glad that you were entertained.

BTW a great reference source is the Merck manual, and there is one also for veterinary and pet use. Its a bit bulky for a BOB, hence the need for condensation, but you can get it as a mobile app. You can read for free online.

[link to www.merckmanuals.com]

Last Edited by emerald eye on 01/22/2013 02:33 AM
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


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Trickster

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01/22/2013 03:45 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
5*s and pin suggestion!thumbs
You can never know enough about TSHTF stuff!

Edit: I once worked in a fishkeeping shop and can tell you, the need for very good quality is a must for many companies, because no aquarist will buy stuff from companies which is bad for his 50 or 60+ Euro angel fish etc.. Go for the good expensive stuff and you should be on the safe side.

Last Edited by Trickster on 01/22/2013 04:04 AM
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Carol B.

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
5 stars and green karma for you, OP. Thank you for posting this most important information!
chowan

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01/22/2013 09:02 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Thank you I was wondering if you could make your work available in txt or pdf form I would love a copy for PAW
entertainment purposes.
sheell be right mate
Person445

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01/22/2013 09:03 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
You have 1 too many 'The's' in your title.
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Little Miss Sunshine

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01/22/2013 09:03 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Thank You for caring about your GLP Family!!hfhf
FANTASTIC JOB!!!!

bump
Anonymous Coward
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United States
01/22/2013 09:13 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
I asked my doctor one day about his. So I wasn't too crazy because he's had the question before.

So he says, yeah, in general they can be used as it obviously is the antibiotic humans use. Only two things he mentioned: 1 was the pharmaceutical quality, where they are manufactured. The standards are not the same (think meningitis), and 2: the biggest difference are the binding agents. Fish meds are meant to be dissolved in water and the binding agent is very different than human meds as we have acid to break down the meds. So he said dosing is very difficult. Usually the problem is that by the time you would take your last dosage, because of the different binding agent, the first dosage would just be taking effect.
He didn't seem concerned about the actual danger, just the effectiveness. But, if things really really really got bad, it's worth a stab I suppose. I just wouldn't be taking them to save money. Lol.
 Quoting: PENG


Doctors aren't going to tell you that it's the same stuff because 1; they don't want people to doctor themselves, 2; most of them still believe everything the big pharmas tell them. A lot of fish drugs started out being human drugs. Even though the expiration dates are a scam, they can't sell them for human consumption after the arbitrary date passes. Government studies have proven that most drugs are so stable that they are still the same 10 to 20 years after the expiration date.
 Quoting: Epic Beard Guy


Lol I knew this was coming. He wasn't trying to persuade me. He actually told me most all dry antibiotics basically have the expiration of dirt, along with most meds. He was one half dozen the other on it. BUT it's a fact that the binding agents are different which makes dosaging different in humans. That's important to know. In my post I did not say he stated they go bad. :-/
 Quoting: PENG



From what your doctor said, then fishmix would be designed to dissolve rapidly. I'm currently taking amoxicillin (fishmox) for my kidneys and I'm getting better everyday. A couple of other conditions are getting better as well. I do have some flora capsules that I'm taking. It's always said that a person that is his own doctors has a fool for a doctor, but I've been to a lot of doctors in the last couple of years and not a single one of them has impressed me. They do have Testing that is not available to me.
I get my anti's from California Vet supply. Most are in the low 20's for 100. I like to get the tabs, usually, because I think they might have a longer shelf life than capsules. (same concept as ground meat goes bad before solid chunks of meat because of the surface area exposed)
PENG

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United States
01/22/2013 09:19 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics


Sadly many doctors now days are so busy filling out the piles of required government paper work that they often seem to have little time or interest in their patients. Its a pity really, we have lost sight as a nation of what medical care really should be.hf
 Quoting: emerald eye


Absolutely. I agree that when all is at an end, I would certainy give them a go. My post must be misunderstood. It is the binding agent. It is different due to the difference in breakdown water vs acid. So the dosage is very different and is important when taking these meds. He didn't seem against it at all I also noted that he said there is no expiration on dry meds... That's not a doctor out with a conspiracy. Lol
 Quoting: PENG

The problem is, that even if your doctor wanted to give you prescriptions to keep handy in the case of an "event", he or she would be hard pressed to do so. There is just too much regulation. The prescriptions would require a current diagnosis, or a valid reason, such as antibiotic prophylaxis for traveling in areas where certain infections are endemic.
The insurance wouldn't cover the prescriptions either, without that information, and your doctor could take a risk by not having the proper reasons documented in your medical chart.

Now with the push towards EMR or electronic medical records, the government gets to scrutinize everything that your doctor does for you. Medical privacy is gone.verysad It isn't all the doctor's fault, they are being harassed also, just in a different way.

Just my opinion of course, FWIW.
 Quoting: emerald eye


Oh no, I agree completely. I even skip meds every now and then to save up! Just in case. I asked how to figure out the dosage "just in case"... He just laughed n said he couldn't tell me as he's not had to prescribe fish antibiotics to anyone. Lol. At least he had a sense of humor.

I would like to figure out or find out about he breakdown. Because if it is that it takes longer to break down in the stomach, then the dosage would have to be much higher... A least that's what I was thinking. His point was that yeah you can take it without any real danger, but the the binding agents cause it to break down at a much slower rate, so that by the time it took effect, one would already be on their last pill. So, it would be interesting if a Chemist or online somewhere that we could find out what the correct dosage or timing of dosage wold be? Idk. Just a thought. But u do love your info. And anything is better than nothing if meds are not available!

Last Edited by PENG on 01/22/2013 09:20 AM
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Anonymous Coward
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Mongolia
01/22/2013 09:23 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Thread: Recession Proof GLP...Antibiotic Alternatives

Thread: Recession Proof GLP... More Antibiotic Alternatives
TruthBeGone

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United States
01/22/2013 09:28 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Yes. Fish amoxicillin is great and works just as good as antibiotics. Thanks for the infos OP. Good stuff! Thumbs up for you.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 09:31 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
This is the most important thread on GLP.
5 * EE.

I can tell you from personal experience that the "fishcillins" will save your life. They are safe and effective.

Ignore doctors who try to scare you otherwise.
MissionInvisible

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01/22/2013 09:55 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
There is some great information here...

I have not had time to read through all of it (as I want to comb through the websites listed as well).

Do you have a top 2-3 (broad spectrum antibiotics) that you would recommend if you had to pick just a few?
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Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 10:19 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
If this info continues to get posted on line, sooner or later "they" are going to require a prescription from a veterinarian. This is one of those things best shared on a personal basis.
emerald eye (OP)
Keeping an "eye out" for the truth.

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01/22/2013 10:21 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
There is some great information here...

I have not had time to read through all of it (as I want to comb through the websites listed as well).

Do you have a top 2-3 (broad spectrum antibiotics) that you would recommend if you had to pick just a few?
 Quoting: MissionInvisible


This is a tough question. I narrowed it down to the following in the above:

First the disclaimer:

The following is for entertainment and discussion purposes, ONLY seek professional medical guidance before attempting to diagnose or treat any condition. The same rules apply to veterinary medicine. Also, I do not recommend the ingestion of any product not specifically manufactured for human use, unless it is an emergency situation, and no other viable alternative exists.

In addition, people with kidney, liver problems ,and many other serious health issues may be at increased risk while using antibiotics and should consult with a qualified health care provider prior to considering any antibiotic usage. Some medications may also adversely interact with antibiotics and these should be discussed with your health care provider prior to considering any antibiotic usage.


3. In stocking a medical BOB on a limited budget, I would pick first Cephalexin (Keflex), second Metronidazole (Flagyl), third Erythromycin or azithromycin (Zithromax) if you can afford the more expensive of the two, fourth Sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim (Septra DS, Bactrim DS). and fifth Ciprofloxin or Doxycycline. No matter what my budget, I would make sure to have Florastor. Those are my picks, but you should check with your health care provider to see if you or people in your family have and counterindications to any of these, and then choose accordingly.

To narrow further to just 2 or three, my first pick would always be Cephalexin (Keflex) followed by Metronidazole (Fagyl). They are both broad spectrum, and Keflex is usually very easily tolerated and kids, pregnant women and dogs can usually take it. The Metronidazole covers anaerobic infections such as abscesses, MRSA, and would help if someone came down with C Diff. The Erythryomcin or Zithromax would be extremely valuable for respiratory infections. So that is a must have as well, and maybe should even be bumped to second. That is as small as I can pare the list down.... Sorry.hf
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Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 10:28 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Thanks for the good work. Great info.

Anti biotics are good for bactrial infections.

Now you need to work on radiation posioning and biowar antivirals.


hf
ehecatl

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Mexico
01/22/2013 10:29 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
In Mexico it used to be to buy an antibiotic you just go to a pharmacy and ask for it.

A couple of years ago they passed a law that you need a prescription to buy antibiotics.

It is true that excessive use of antibiotics for conditions where they are not effective, or by not completing a treatment, may cause bacteria or viruses to mutate to more resistant forms. Fortunately most people on the street seem to be aware of that now.

So now you go to the pharmacy and ask for the antibiotic, and the pharmacist may chat with you for a minute about it's use and purpose, and may or may not charge about (equal to) a dollars extra, and then write the prescription and sell you the antibiotic. (Most pharmacies have Mexican MD's on staff).

A much better system IMO ;)


Oh, and concerning "probiotics", used to reestablish good intestinal bacteria, I have lots of experience with those issues from my first few years in Mexico, before I developed stronger resistance to higher bacteria levels in street food.

It is true that yoghurt is good for general use for a healthy stomach, but to reestablish the correct bacteria in a troubled stomach, or to avoid a bout of diarrhea, what seems to work best is the type of cheese that they call Mozzarella in the US. Here the same cheese is called Oaxaca. Eat a half pound of Mozzarella cheese and it will be more economical and possibly more effective than a pharmacy product.

Last Edited by ehecatl on 01/22/2013 10:43 AM
my name is 905

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01/22/2013 10:49 AM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
OP, you said....

P.S.
I am also putting together an emergency trauma guide for lacerations, chest trauma and emergency suturing techniques , but I don't know if I have the guts to post it here... maybe, depending upon how this goes...hf
I really want to help people be able to help themselves if TSHTF, but here are so many considerations...I guess I will wait to see how this thread goes, and maybe post it when finished.) Also I am aware of colloidal silver, oregano and other products, but this thread is to discuss antibiotic therapy for those interested in this particular topic. I know there are other good threads on this, I am just giving the list I compiled, FWIW.



Thanks for the thread. Please do post the emergency trauma guide as well.

Last Edited by my name is 905 on 01/22/2013 10:51 AM
phoenixe

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Germany
01/22/2013 10:52 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
the pitty is, you get them easily anywhere but in Germany.

any advice/suggestions how to get them here?
Anonymous Coward
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United States
01/22/2013 10:57 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Five star thread, thanks!!red_heartbump
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
01/22/2013 11:05 AM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
You prepper-tards will self dose and make yourselves deaf, fry your livers, induce serious diarrhea and resulting dehydration or even kill yourselves outright because of incorrect antibiotic use.

There is a reason doctors, pharmacists and medical scientists spend years studying this stuff, its fucking complicated, meaning you cant just wing it.

Antibiotics can be dangerous medications, its not like using aspirin, you really have to know what you are doing.

I have 5 years of microbiology, specifically bacteriology education under my belt and even have experience in antimicrobial compound research... and unless it was SHTF i wouldn't be comfortable self dosing or even dosing others unless they had serious signs of say an anerobic wound infection which would probably lead to gangrene without treatment.

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