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The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics

 
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 01:36 PM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
For entertainment purposes only and not meant as veterinarian advice or medical advice:

For cats with colds (upper respiratory infection) 50mg of amoxycillin 2 times a day. 10 to 14 days.

Dose of Flagyl for cats with diarrhea is 40 mg 2 times a day. FIVE DAYS ONLY! Do not give longer without vet approval.

Doxycycline will become toxic after the expiration date. This is one anti-biotic that does not just become weaker with age. Throw it out if it is past the date on the bottle.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17851333


Thanks for weighing in on cats...I don't know much about them....hubby is allergic to them (or so he claims)


Thanks for reminding me about the doxycycline issue, I got carried away with the pregnancy and child warnings and did not get that typed in. Expired doxycycline can cause kidney damage, and I will add it right away.

The DOD has actually studied the shelf life of most drugs in their shelf life extension program (SLEP).

[link to www.usamma.amedd.army.mil]

What they have found that mostly tablets and capsules have a very long shelf life especially if stored in a cool, dry place. In their newer study, (2012) The major categories affected by self life were liquids and especially insulin. Aspirin and amphetamines were also affected.

[link to www.medpagetoday.com]

[link to archinte.jamanetwork.com]

[link to www.aahs.org]

[link to ofcaems.org]

[link to www.defense.gov]





Appreciate the comments...for entertainment and discussion purposes only.

Last Edited by emerald eye on 01/22/2013 01:44 PM
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Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 01:49 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Tractor supply co sells antibiotics for farm animals same names as the fish/ human ones but come in 1 lb bags for 7-12 bucks
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 01:51 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Doxycycline will become toxic after the expiration date. This is one anti-biotic that does not just become weaker with age. Throw it out if it is past the date on the bottle.

The DOD has actually studied the shelf life of most drugs in their shelf life extension program (SLEP).

What they have found that mostly tablets and capsules have a very long shelf life especially if stored in a cool, dry place. In their newer study, (2012) The major categories affected by self life were liquids and especially insulin. Aspirin and amphetamines were also affected.

 Quoting: emerald eye


Indeed that sounds correct, off the top of my head im not even sure if hydrolysis of other antibiotic compounds can produce toxic byproducts over time. I think with beta lactams it just degrades them. Dont quote me on that though.

Pretty sure the toxicity when stored is limited to Tetracyclines.

Most medications do degrade over time, but they generally just lose potency.

Insulin and anti angina medications have issues with storage i believe.

Hydrochloride salt medications and the like etc should keep a long time so long as kept free from light, heat, moisture etc.
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 01:56 PM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
You made a comment about Cipro inducing deafness if taken for 2 or 3 days. Why don't you fully explain yourself ? It's easy to criticize but why not educate us with what you know ?
 Quoting: Morpheus


Apparently rare side effect for Cipro in humans and hasn't been conclusively shown in animal models, however a casual glance around the internet on forums says otherwise.

Dont just take my word for it, google 'tinnitus cipro' ' cipro hearing loss' etc. Seems plenty of people have been having hearing related side effects.

Potential deafness due to toxicity is a known side effect of some potent injected antibiotics such as Gentamicin.

I'm not saying dont ever take cipro, id rather risk being deaf than dead, but i think it would be a shame for unaware people to buy cipro on the internet and then take it when they have an infected fingernail only to suffer partial hearing loss within a week and not know why.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28070593


Ototoxicity with Ciprofloxin is rare.

From the BJM:

"Tinnitus is not generally recognised as an adverse reaction to treatment with ciprofloxacin. An incidence of only three cases per 9473 courses of treatment has been reported, and animal studies have failed to associate ciprofloxacin with ototoxicity."

[link to www.bmj.com]

[link to www.researchgate.net]


That being said, any antibiotic can be associated with serious side effects, and therefore this discussion is only intended as entertainment for the fictional scenario in which access to a qualified heath care provider is impossible.


Hugs to all...smile_kiss
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


The only way that anyone gets something for nothing, is that someone else has given up something for nothing.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 02:03 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Hey op just wondering if ya ever looked at the livestock antibiotics tsc sells in there stores they have the same names as the fish ones. and there just add water and dosage on back by weight those should work also ? u think ?
I bought 2 lbs of erythromycin for around 15.00
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 02:08 PM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
"In stocking a medical BOB on a limited budget, I would pick first Cephalexin (Keflex), second Metronidazole (Flagyl), third Erythromycin or azithromycin (Zithromax) if you can afford the more expensive of the two, fourth Sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim (Septra DS, Bactrim DS). and fifth Ciprofloxin or Doxycycline. No matter what my budget, I would make sure to have Florastor. Those are my picks, but you should check with your health care provider to see if you or people in your family have and counterindications to any of these, and then choose accordingly."


In doing this list, I placed Ciprofloxin and Doxycycline at # 5 or last on the list because they probably have the most risks for use aside from allergic reactions and C. Diff.

That being said, They are both broad spectrum and cover a lot of things that would be difficult to treat without them. See table 4 in this paper for biological warfare situations if you get my drift... (someone asked about this earlier) (click skip the stupid ad):

[link to www.aafp.org]

[link to www.aafp.org]


As mentioned previously:

That being said, any antibiotic can be associated with serious side effects, and therefore this discussion is only intended as entertainment for the fictional scenario in which access to a qualified heath care provider is impossible.
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


The only way that anyone gets something for nothing, is that someone else has given up something for nothing.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 02:11 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
bumptard for later read

bump
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 02:11 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Ototoxicity with Ciprofloxin is rare.

 Quoting: emerald eye


Thats the story, a quick google may indicate otherwise.

A few studies have noted only recorded cases in a few people out of thousands. Animal studies have not shown any hearing dammage.

However, the studies may be flawed, contributory factors such as high blood pressure and genetics, or animal models being a poor indication may be part of this.

Just google, 'Cipro tinnitus' ' cipro hearing loss'

Plenty of random forums and websites with people talking about it, some people have claimed hearing damage after 12-24 hours of taking cipro.
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 02:21 PM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Hey op just wondering if ya ever looked at the livestock antibiotics tsc sells in there stores they have the same names as the fish ones. and there just add water and dosage on back by weight those should work also ? u think ?
I bought 2 lbs of erythromycin for around 15.00
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32399386


Good question.

It is my opinion that most of the fish tablets and capsules are manufactured for human use, and then purchased by the companies that then market them for fish, and are thus repackaged for non-human use, so that seems more intuitive to me.

The antibiotics that are sold in the feed store are specifically manufactured for the animals that they are sold for. That being said, they are basically similar, but sometimes have other things mixed in. Also the proportions are different, and you could easily overdose on something without careful weights to the milligram (one thousandth of a gram)

That being said, I grew up on a farm-ranch, and I can tell you that many old ranchers will routinely dose themselves the same things that they treat their livestock with. This is not of course recommended practice, but I know plenty of them who are 80-90 years old and have not yet killed themselves, so take it FWIW.

Once again:

That being said, any antibiotic can be associated with serious side effects, and therefore this discussion is only intended as entertainment for the fictional scenario in which access to a qualified heath care provider is impossible.
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


The only way that anyone gets something for nothing, is that someone else has given up something for nothing.
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 02:28 PM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Ototoxicity with Ciprofloxin is rare.

 Quoting: emerald eye


Thats the story, a quick google may indicate otherwise.

A few studies have noted only recorded cases in a few people out of thousands. Animal studies have not shown any hearing dammage.

However, the studies may be flawed, contributory factors such as high blood pressure and genetics, or animal models being a poor indication may be part of this.

Just google, 'Cipro tinnitus' ' cipro hearing loss'

Plenty of random forums and websites with people talking about it, some people have claimed hearing damage after 12-24 hours of taking cipro.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28070593


I respect your opinion, however in anthrax (and other ugly things) vs. Cipro (in a theoretical situation of course only being discussed for entertainment), I would probably choose the Cipro. (Later generation Quinolones are probably better, but to my knowledge Cipro is the only one available as a fish antibiotic.)

Once again, for those who are interested, please see table 4 in this article. That is my real point.

[link to www.aafp.org]


That being said, any antibiotic can be associated with serious side effects, and therefore this discussion is only intended as entertainment for the fictional scenario in which access to a qualified heath care provider is impossible.

I need to run some errands, but will check back later.

Hugs,
ee.hf

Last Edited by emerald eye on 01/22/2013 02:33 PM
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Epic Beard Guy
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01/22/2013 03:58 PM

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bump

For important content (although just theoretical). Everyone should know this before TSHTF.
Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
Epic Beard Guy
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Ototoxicity with Ciprofloxin is rare.

 Quoting: emerald eye


Thats the story, a quick google may indicate otherwise.

A few studies have noted only recorded cases in a few people out of thousands. Animal studies have not shown any hearing dammage.

However, the studies may be flawed, contributory factors such as high blood pressure and genetics, or animal models being a poor indication may be part of this.

Just google, 'Cipro tinnitus' ' cipro hearing loss'

Plenty of random forums and websites with people talking about it, some people have claimed hearing damage after 12-24 hours of taking cipro.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28070593


If you go back and read some of her other threads, you will that EE researches these questions quite thoroughly. I doubt she has missed any claims, and incorporates credible ones into her posts.
Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 06:24 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Many thanks to whoever green pinned thishf...I didn't think it would get much attention, but I do feel the information is important, mainly for entertainment and discussion reasons of course.cool2

To those of you who have said that antibiotics can kill you, you are absolutely correct. Even in the hands of qualified professionals, there can be serious and even fatal adverse effects with the use of antibiotics. The reason that I decided to post this information is that in true a SHTF situation, people are less likely to use them incorrectly if they have some basic information, and know some of the indications for use and also some of what to watch out for.

The bottom line is that with even a little information, antibiotics are less likely to kill you than with no information at all in a desperate situation.

Of course there is no way that a small list like this can be all inclusive, and no one should take any antibiotic not supervised by a competent health care provider in normal circumstances.

Therefore this discussion is entirely fictional for the fictional world in which there is no access to a competent health care provider. May that situation always stay within the realm of fiction....



To those of you who asked about radiation, here is an old thread of mine....

Thread: **RADIATION PROTECTION**- non prescription list, revised and updated.

Good luck to us all...smile_kiss
 Quoting: emerald eye


Please unpin this and take this down. Serious preppers will find this out on their own. Posting it just helps ensure they will take these off the market and then we are really screwed.
Epic Beard Guy
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01/22/2013 07:04 PM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Many thanks to whoever green pinned thishf...I didn't think it would get much attention, but I do feel the information is important, mainly for entertainment and discussion reasons of course.cool2

To those of you who have said that antibiotics can kill you, you are absolutely correct. Even in the hands of qualified professionals, there can be serious and even fatal adverse effects with the use of antibiotics. The reason that I decided to post this information is that in true a SHTF situation, people are less likely to use them incorrectly if they have some basic information, and know some of the indications for use and also some of what to watch out for.

The bottom line is that with even a little information, antibiotics are less likely to kill you than with no information at all in a desperate situation.

Of course there is no way that a small list like this can be all inclusive, and no one should take any antibiotic not supervised by a competent health care provider in normal circumstances.

Therefore this discussion is entirely fictional for the fictional world in which there is no access to a competent health care provider. May that situation always stay within the realm of fiction....



To those of you who asked about radiation, here is an old thread of mine....

Thread: **RADIATION PROTECTION**- non prescription list, revised and updated.

Good luck to us all...smile_kiss
 Quoting: emerald eye


Please unpin this and take this down. Serious preppers will find this out on their own. Posting it just helps ensure they will take these off the market and then we are really screwed.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29992561


This is not news. This information has been out there for years. And you are right, serious preppers did find this out a long time ago. They will not take these meds off the market. They are needed by people with fish, birds and other animals. I have antibiotics for my chickens, and everyone that raises fish for food has the same antibiotics we are talking about today. Taking these off the market would be a crippling blow to our food supplies. It hasn't been a secret for a long time. Informed preppers have known this for years. I'm sorry if nobody told you.
Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 07:27 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
hf5star
for keeping us on our toes!
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 07:46 PM
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Oh, preppers need antibiotics, produced by the much hated medical industrial complex.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2013 08:15 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Many thanks to whoever green pinned thishf...I didn't think it would get much attention, but I do feel the information is important, mainly for entertainment and discussion reasons of course.cool2

To those of you who have said that antibiotics can kill you, you are absolutely correct. Even in the hands of qualified professionals, there can be serious and even fatal adverse effects with the use of antibiotics. The reason that I decided to post this information is that in true a SHTF situation, people are less likely to use them incorrectly if they have some basic information, and know some of the indications for use and also some of what to watch out for.

The bottom line is that with even a little information, antibiotics are less likely to kill you than with no information at all in a desperate situation.

Of course there is no way that a small list like this can be all inclusive, and no one should take any antibiotic not supervised by a competent health care provider in normal circumstances.

Therefore this discussion is entirely fictional for the fictional world in which there is no access to a competent health care provider. May that situation always stay within the realm of fiction....



To those of you who asked about radiation, here is an old thread of mine....

Thread: **RADIATION PROTECTION**- non prescription list, revised and updated.

Good luck to us all...smile_kiss
 Quoting: emerald eye


Please unpin this and take this down. Serious preppers will find this out on their own. Posting it just helps ensure they will take these off the market and then we are really screwed.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29992561


This is not news. This information has been out there for years. And you are right, serious preppers did find this out a long time ago. They will not take these meds off the market. They are needed by people with fish, birds and other animals. I have antibiotics for my chickens, and everyone that raises fish for food has the same antibiotics we are talking about today. Taking these off the market would be a crippling blow to our food supplies. It hasn't been a secret for a long time. Informed preppers have known this for years. I'm sorry if nobody told you.
 Quoting: Epic Beard Guy


"They will not take these meds off the market. They are needed by people with fish, birds and other animals."

O'rly? Tried buying a bottle of Polar Pure Iodine water purifier lately? The one with a little pinch of Iodine crystals in the bottom of a little glass bottle, that could purify enough water to last some a year? It's been "banned" and is no longer for sale. Don't underestimate what they won't do. They don't want you to have clean water, and they don't want you ro have antibiotics either. They want you completely dependant on them.
UseLess RepEATER
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
5 stars for very useful information for a SHTF scenario.
hf
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Anonymous Coward
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Ciprofloxin is very dangerous, it literally eats your tendons and you start with pains, some people ends with serious conditions.

There is only one antibiotic which is superior to all you list, its a gas so it reachs everywhere, it doesnt reacts with your cells only with pathogens while being more potent than ozone, its cheap, its ultra wide spectrum, it doesnt creates resistent superbugs, etcetcet... Its sodium chlorite + 5 drops lemon per drop of sodium chlorite reacts to form chlorine dioxide, add water, drink. Chlorine dioxide is a miracolus molecule.

It also good for parasites, virus (you have to take small doses very frequently to fight viruses), etcetc.

Its one of the biggest conspiracies ive had the pleasure to try for myself, as well as with my daughter, wife, heck i even cured some skin cancer lesions that my grandmom had, she also had some nasty coughing that disappread, ive since learn that due to hes symptoms they prolly were lung parasites, ewww!
Anonymous Coward
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hes=her
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01/22/2013 09:46 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
OP, I don't see much info here on Amoxicillin.

This is a great broad spectrum antibiotic is it not?
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 10:42 PM

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Please unpin this and take this down. Serious preppers will find this out on their own. Posting it just helps ensure they will take these off the market and then we are really screwed.
 Quoting: emerald eye

(BTW the above is a quote from AC29992561 not me, I am not sure why it shows up this way, maybe when I cropped it???)


In response to your criticism of this particular thread causing these items to be removed, they were removed from Amazon well prior to this thread, so the process has already been started, independent of this thread. I don't think that this thread will therefore have much impact one way or another, as it will happen anyway, and people still have opportunities from other suppliers and eBay if they chose to act.

I wanted to give people a window of opportunity if they choose to use it and a heads up.hf

Last Edited by emerald eye on 01/22/2013 10:48 PM
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01/22/2013 11:01 PM
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THanks OP good info should give one food for thought Goofy Thum
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 11:07 PM

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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
OP, I don't see much info here on Amoxicillin.

This is a great broad spectrum antibiotic is it not?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32674471


Yes it is.


Amoxicillin could very easily be substituted for Ampicillin, basically they are somewhat similar in spectrum and Amoxicillin may be actually be a bit better orally than Ampicillin which was initially developed to be an IV medication. I tried to use one product from the commonly available categories, so I picked Ampicillin rather arbitrarily, although Amoxicillin could be easily substituted.

Amoxicillin is a penicillin class drug with the addition of clavulanate. Either could be useful and are similar in spectrum. I chose Ampicillin in my "list" because of a few older studies that showed it to be more effective in a few things such as Shigella dysenteria, which causes debilitating diarrhea in areas or situations when sanitation is poor, although either Ciprofloxin or Azithromycin would be better choices for Shigella at this point.

old example:
[link to www.jstor.org]


Also on my list I used Erythromycin rather than Azithromycin, and Azthromycin is actually probably the better drug, but it is quite a bit more expensive and generally less available, and I worried that it might me a bit more difficult for the average prepper to find and be able to afford the Azithromycin.

So again, the list is not meant to be all inclusive, but merely a general guideline and I also encourage you to do your own research and consider your own specific needs and also remember that this discussion is only intended as entertainment for the fictional scenario in which access to a qualified heath care provider is impossible.. hf

Last Edited by emerald eye on 01/22/2013 11:08 PM
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Thanks for the reply OP, great thread.

It may very well save lives some day.
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
Amoxycillin is a good broad spectrum antibiotic that works for me. I've had to use it for sinus and/or bronchial infections off and on over the years, so have been purchasing Fishmox. I don't have insurance and recognize these infections immediately.

Recently I had an abscessed tooth which needed a root canal or extraction, went to the dentist and he was going to prescribe Amoxycillin. I told him that I had 250 mg. Amoxycillin capsules for pets and asked if it would be okay to use these instead. He said, "yes. They are fine. It is the same drug, but take at least 800 mg. 2x daily," rather than the 500 mg 2x daily dosage that I would normally take for sinuses. In this case, I took 1 extra 250 mg capsule between the two 750 mg dosages.

From prior experience of being prescribed Amoxycillin, different dosages are required for different infections. For urinary tract infection, a lesser dose of 250 mg 3x daily for 7 days will work. For bronchitis, 500 mg 3x daily for 10 days. In severe cases of bronchitis, I've had to use 500 mg 4x daily for 10 days. I've noticed that if I do not take enough after the bronchitis gets really bad, the infection will return.

Also, I have cats that are big - weigh a lot. One was prescribed a 75 mg dose of Amoxycillin 2x daily for 10 days. Weight does factor in dosages for animals as well as for people.

Thanks for the tip about the tractor supply and livestock feed stores. Those are less expensive than purchasing through a vet supply store.
emerald eye (OP)
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01/22/2013 11:31 PM

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Thanks for the reply OP, great thread.

It may very well save lives some day.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32674471

I hope so.

You guys and girls are most welcome. I debated with myself about posting this, and in the end, I am glad that I decided to post it. It was the right decision; the regular people of this world deserve every possible advantage in the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness should any one of multiple fictional scenarios come to pass. hf
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
tardis bump
Mister_Worlwide

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08/28/2013 01:31 PM
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
OP just wondering if there are sites you might suggest now to order from.
There's nothing like Miami's heat....
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emerald eye (OP)
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Re: The TSHTF guide to fish and bird antibiotics
I usually buy on eBay (for my fish, of courseohyeah). Just search the antibiotic name, such as amoxicillin, cephalexin, doxycycline, erythromycin, zithromax (or azithromycin), metronidazole, ect...

I always look at the seller feedback. A good one that I have had no problems with (and they also do fast shipping) is "aquaticpharmacy" I believe that Amazon has stopped selling most of these.

Good luck to you.hf
Courage forges a path through all obstacles,
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The only way that anyone gets something for nothing, is that someone else has given up something for nothing.

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