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Why God must exist

 
Amilius
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Why God must exist
The fine tuning argument says there must have been a god. It was said that if the universe has had a change by 1 in 10^100 the universe wouldn't exist or would not be habitable for life. Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. So in order for the universe to exist and be so finely tuned there must have been an incorporeal first cause that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omnipotent. Those are the characteristics of a god.

Last Edited by Amilius on 01/27/2013 02:09 PM
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Re: Why God must exist
I so want to believe this, but I seem to be surrounded by Godless people who have no interest in spiritual matters, and love the material world
Anonymous Coward
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01/27/2013 02:40 PM
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Re: Why God must exist
Excellent series on this idea:

Privileged Planet (Chapter 1 of 12)
[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
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Re: Why God must exist
bump
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Why God must exist
This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists.

X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it.

I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.
Amilius (OP)

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01/27/2013 03:49 PM
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Re: Why God must exist
This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists.

X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it.

I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God.

Last Edited by Amilius on 01/27/2013 03:49 PM
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Re: Why God must exist
This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists.

X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it.

I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God.
 Quoting: Amilius


With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be?
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Re: Why God must exist
Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123.
 Quoting: Amilius


The chances for life are much, much higher...

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Re: Why God must exist
Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123.
 Quoting: Amilius


The chances for life are much, much higher...


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584


What do you think the odds are that a super-being can come from nothing?

Given two scenarios, one in which nothing exists, and one in which a super-being just happened to exist, outside of time, and is all powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent, etc....which is more likely?

Given two scenarios, one in which a universe, such as ours, just happened to exist, "outside" of time, as time is a simply a property of it, and another scenario in which a super-being outside of time made that universe, which is more likely?
Amilius (OP)

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Re: Why God must exist
This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists.

X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it.

I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God.
 Quoting: Amilius


With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.
Amilius (OP)

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Re: Why God must exist
Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123.
 Quoting: Amilius


The chances for life are much, much higher...


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584


I meant the universe coming to existence and being able to have life on it.
Lucky Charms

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Re: Why God must exist
Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123.
 Quoting: Amilius


Did he indeed?
Where did you get this information?

Do you have a link that isn't a creationist website where we can see this?

Which work written by Penrose contains this information?
I've read many of his books and I've never seen this.

I'd be interested in seeing the full set of calculations.
'Magically Delicious'
Amilius (OP)

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Re: Why God must exist
Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123.
 Quoting: Amilius


Did he indeed?
Where did you get this information?

Do you have a link that isn't a creationist website where we can see this?

Which work written by Penrose contains this information?
I've read many of his books and I've never seen this.

I'd be interested in seeing the full set of calculations.
 Quoting: Lucky Charms


Just google it.
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Re: Why God must exist
I meant the universe coming to existence and being able to have life on it.
 Quoting: Amilius


There are probably multiple universes, connected like bubbles. Not just one.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Mr. Penrose didn't factor that in.
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Re: Why God must exist
Just because the odds of something happening are very low,
doesn't mean it can never happen.

In an infinite universe, or even a near-infinite one, there's gotta be a lucky lottery winner somewhere. Just so happens it is here.
Lucky Charms

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Re: Why God must exist
Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123.
 Quoting: Amilius


Did he indeed?
Where did you get this information?

Do you have a link that isn't a creationist website where we can see this?

Which work written by Penrose contains this information?
I've read many of his books and I've never seen this.

I'd be interested in seeing the full set of calculations.
 Quoting: Lucky Charms


Just google it.
 Quoting: Amilius


Did you bother to do that?

Ok, I'll stop beating around the bush.
Penrose never said any such thing.

That's all.
'Magically Delicious'
Lucky Charms

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01/27/2013 04:36 PM

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Re: Why God must exist
Mr. Penrose didn't factor that in.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584


Don't blame Penrose, he's being misrepresented here.

Also he has stated that the data suggests there was a previous universe before the existence of the one we find ourselves in.
'Magically Delicious'
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01/27/2013 04:38 PM
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Re: Why God must exist
This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists.

X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it.

I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God.
 Quoting: Amilius


With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.
 Quoting: Amilius


On what basis can you claim that the universe is subjected to time, rather than time being a property of it? Your claim of god being outside of time can just as easily be attributed to the universe itself.

If I understand you correctly, if something is outside of time, you don't have to explain how it came to be, as that would not make any sense. So what I am essentially proposing is that this property can also be attributed to the universe. How you attribute this property does not really matter. Off the top of my head, I'd say the big bang/big crunch hypothesis would suffice. Or, the universe itself is all that exists, and within that existence, we observe evidence of a big bang. However, the material that came from the big bang may not be all that exists, rather, just a bubble emerging from a greater existence. Time only exists within the bubble, or multiples thereof.
Amilius (OP)

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Re: Why God must exist
Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123.
 Quoting: Amilius


Did he indeed?
Where did you get this information?

Do you have a link that isn't a creationist website where we can see this?

Which work written by Penrose contains this information?
I've read many of his books and I've never seen this.

I'd be interested in seeing the full set of calculations.
 Quoting: Lucky Charms


Just google it.
 Quoting: Amilius


Did you bother to do that?

Ok, I'll stop beating around the bush.
Penrose never said any such thing.

That's all.
 Quoting: Lucky Charms


I believe he did unless people on the Internet are lying.
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Re: Why God must exist
My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.
 Quoting: Amilius


But how do you know what God is or what he represents?

God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts.

It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding...
Amilius (OP)

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Re: Why God must exist
My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.
 Quoting: Amilius


But how do you know what God is or what he represents?

God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts.

It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584


All I KNOW is that God is the first cause.
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Re: Why God must exist
My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.
 Quoting: Amilius


But how do you know what God is or what he represents?

God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts.

It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584


All I KNOW is that God is the first cause.
 Quoting: Amilius


You do know that you are deviating away from your original argument, right? We could discuss the first cause argument if you'd like, but we should stay on topic and get through this one first. I'd like to see the light bulb switch on in your head.
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Re: Why God must exist
All I KNOW is that something is the first cause.
 Quoting: Amilius


Fixed. wink
Lucky Charms

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Re: Why God must exist
I believe he did unless people on the Internet are lying.
 Quoting: Amilius


All I asked was were you got that info...

Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that.

I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim.

Have a great day.hf
'Magically Delicious'
Amilius (OP)

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Re: Why God must exist
My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.
 Quoting: Amilius


But how do you know what God is or what he represents?

God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts.

It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584


All I KNOW is that God is the first cause.
 Quoting: Amilius


You do know that you are deviating away from your original argument, right? We could discuss the first cause argument if you'd like, but we should stay on topic and get through this one first. I'd like to see the light bulb switch on in your head.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


First cause should also be omnipotent as it could create universes. Something incorporeal, unmoved and omnipotent. That seems like God to me.
Amilius (OP)

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Re: Why God must exist
I believe he did unless people on the Internet are lying.
 Quoting: Amilius


All I asked was were you got that info...

Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that.

I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim.

Have a great day.hf
 Quoting: Lucky Charms


If he didn't then the Internet is lying!
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Re: Why God must exist
I believe he did unless people on the Internet are lying.
 Quoting: Amilius


All I asked was were you got that info...

Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that.

I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim.

Have a great day.hf
 Quoting: Lucky Charms


If he didn't then the Internet is lying!
 Quoting: Amilius


You actually believe everything you read on the internet?

People like you actually exist?

Helped out any Nigerian princes lately?
Lucky Charms

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Re: Why God must exist
If he didn't then the Internet is lying!
 Quoting: Amilius


The entire internet?

I wasn't even aware it was conscious, let alone capable of deceit.

So still no chance of that link then?

tounge
'Magically Delicious'
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Re: Why God must exist
I believe he did unless people on the Internet are lying.
 Quoting: Amilius


All I asked was were you got that info...

Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that.

I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim.

Have a great day.hf
 Quoting: Lucky Charms


If he didn't then the Internet is lying!
 Quoting: Amilius


The calculation is still correct. Anyone who has studied the subject will agree with how remote the chances would have been for our existence to come from nothing.
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Re: Why God must exist
I believe he did unless people on the Internet are lying.
 Quoting: Amilius


All I asked was were you got that info...

Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that.

I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim.

Have a great day.hf
 Quoting: Lucky Charms


If he didn't then the Internet is lying!
 Quoting: Amilius


The calculation is still correct. Anyone who has studied the subject will agree with how remote the chances would have been for our existence to come from nothing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536


Really? Do feel free to explain to us all how the figure of 1 in 10^10^123 was reached then.

Be sure to show your working to receive full credit!
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Re: Why God must exist
...


All I asked was were you got that info...

Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that.

I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim.

Have a great day.hf
 Quoting: Lucky Charms


If he didn't then the Internet is lying!
 Quoting: Amilius


The calculation is still correct. Anyone who has studied the subject will agree with how remote the chances would have been for our existence to come from nothing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536


Really? Do feel free to explain to us all how the figure of 1 in 10^10^123 was reached then.

Be sure to show your working to receive full credit!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27172464


If you really ask that question, you're not worth the trouble

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