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How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?

 
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 01:21 PM
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How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
I have come to realize that this is the most popular question posed by believers. It was this way 10 years ago when I started debating and it's the same today.

The argument is basically this: I observe X, I have no explanation for X, therefore god exists. It comes in many forms. Some prefer the apparent "fine-tuning" of the universe. Some prefer the beauty or complexity of the world around us. How could it come from nothing out of chance?

So, an average individual would then assume that someone made the universe...end of discussion. However, if believers could fathom the following concept, you will make years of progress in philosophy in just one essay.

We have a complex universe whose origins cannot be explained. If you were to imagine a god coming from nothing, it would further complicate the problem. So, many people prefer to think of god as existing "outside" of time, as it were, and thus not subject to an explanation of origin since god always existed. So, pointing to the apparent linear nature of the universe (big bang) seems to indicate that it needs a "mover" or creator to set it in motion. I would like to propose that the universe may not be linear and that "time" is a product of the universe. Essentially, I am stating that the universe is also "outside" of time, and thus not subject to the need for an explanation of its origins. This can be achieved by the big bang/big crunch hypothesis, or thinking of the observable universe as a subset of the whole, rather than the entire universe. What we see may merely be a bubble inside a greater existence, where time exists only in that bubble. As far fetched as this seems, it is on par with picturing a creator without origins.

Now, you may notice that this actually simplifies the problem of explaining the origins of existence in general because instead of a super-being always existing, now all you have is existence itself always existing. I prefer this argument because as crazy as it sounds, it sounds LESS crazy than a super-being always existing and then creating the universe. Of course I am not saying that I know for certain this is the case, but for individuals willing to accept a creator outside of time, it appears that you should have no reason to dismiss the universe being outside of time.

Please, trolls and low-IQ individuals, refrain from deviating from this argument, like bringing up evolution or talking about the moon and global warming. There are other threads for that. We know you fools do this-because you can't grasp this concept.

Discuss!
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 01:23 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Additionally, I would like to point out that I am not an anti-gun tyrant, liberal, or anything like that. So please don't think that you have to prove god exists to stick it to the liberals. This is a separate issue.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 01:24 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
God?
[link to www.youtube.com]
ll
User ID: 24392356
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01/28/2013 01:35 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
you may call it however you want.

existence, God, I AM, Spirit, Consciousness, Cosmos... etc.


Now what?
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 01:36 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Just because you don't understand how something happened and say goddidit; just because you can't conceive of some other thing that could have caused it, doesn't mean goddidit. It's not proof of god either, it just means you don't know.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 01:41 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Just because you don't understand how something happened and say goddidit; just because you can't conceive of some other thing that could have caused it, doesn't mean goddidit. It's not proof of god either, it just means you don't know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32353371


I can't conceive of any other explanation because no other explanation can fully satisfy first cause. God (whether you believe in him or not, or know who or what he is) is the only thing that can explain how we got here.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 01:43 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
It appears that one out of 4 people actually read my post. Can anyone actually come up with a real response?
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 01:44 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
you may call it however you want.

existence, God, I AM, Spirit, Consciousness, Cosmos... etc.


Now what?
 Quoting: ll 24392356


What if you wanted to call it a pantheon of gods?

Or us living in a virtual reality?

Why would these 2 options have less credence then a monotheistic or pantheistic God?
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 01:45 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
refrain from deviating from this argument, like bringing up evolution
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Why would we not bring up the most obvious proof for the existence of god?
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 01:45 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
so, if i understand correctly, absence of evidence of whatever = god?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 01:47 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Just because you don't understand how something happened and say goddidit; just because you can't conceive of some other thing that could have caused it, doesn't mean goddidit. It's not proof of god either, it just means you don't know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32353371


I can't conceive of any other explanation because no other explanation can fully satisfy first cause. God (whether you believe in him or not, or know who or what he is) is the only thing that can explain how we got here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4964319


If you read my post, you would see that your counter argument has already been addressed. If it is easy for you to fathom a super-being existing outside of time and having no need for an explanation of how that being got there, why is it so hard for you to imagine a universe existing outside of time and thus not subject to the need to explain how it got there.

Which is more likely:
A) A super-being always existed and does not need explanation for origin
B) A universe always existed and does not need explanation for origin

Time is a product of the universe, existing inside it just as gravity does, but the universe itself is not subject to time.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 01:52 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Maybe God hides himself from atheists.

Seek and you'll find.

Don't look, and you get the obvious result.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 01:53 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
you may call it however you want.

existence, God, I AM, Spirit, Consciousness, Cosmos... etc.


Now what?
 Quoting: ll 24392356


Well, I don't see the need to attribute the quality of intelligence to the universe, if that is what you are suggesting. It seems to be a vast chaotic mess that we find ourselves in. Worshiping the universe would be like worshiping a paper towel.
ll
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01/28/2013 01:54 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
God is only a concept. Same with evolution.


What do you know actually and factually NOW?

Whatever you WILL KNOW or DID KNOW (reading, school, upbringing) is of no use to me, for it is limited and changing, born and dies.

My concern is, why people do not want to know what is now. Not there, nor then.


You must be joking, trying to conceive of timeless in time, using tools, namely concepts, to find conceptless...

a big cosmic joke existence is.
BOWMAN
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User ID: 11306429
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01/28/2013 01:58 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
you may call it however you want.

existence, God, I AM, Spirit, Consciousness, Cosmos... etc.


Now what?
 Quoting: ll 24392356


Well, I don't see the need to attribute the quality of intelligence to the universe, if that is what you are suggesting. It seems to be a vast chaotic mess that we find ourselves in. Worshiping the universe would be like worshiping a paper towel.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


From a particular perspective, you could say the same thing about yourself...

universe

cells


------
"You have to take seriously the notion that understanding the universe is your responsibility, because the only understanding of the universe that will be useful to you is your own understanding." ~ Terence McKenna

The Real You

[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 02:00 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
you may call it however you want.

existence, God, I AM, Spirit, Consciousness, Cosmos... etc.


Now what?
 Quoting: ll 24392356


Well, I don't see the need to attribute the quality of intelligence to the universe, if that is what you are suggesting. It seems to be a vast chaotic mess that we find ourselves in. Worshiping the universe would be like worshiping a paper towel.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


define which God you speak of and then we can get into a debate as to whether or not you are supposed to worship anything at all.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 02:01 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
you may call it however you want.

existence, God, I AM, Spirit, Consciousness, Cosmos... etc.


Now what?
 Quoting: ll 24392356


Well, I don't see the need to attribute the quality of intelligence to the universe, if that is what you are suggesting. It seems to be a vast chaotic mess that we find ourselves in. Worshiping the universe would be like worshiping a paper towel.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


define which God you speak of and then we can get into a debate as to whether or not you are supposed to worship anything at all.
 Quoting: Oyster


You didn't read my original post. You might find that we agree a lot more that you think.
Vaellene

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01/28/2013 02:02 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
truth
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 02:04 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Atheists prefer to worship their own ego and intellect, they are their own god. Atheists are pretty mentally deranged and demented.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 02:04 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
you may call it however you want.

existence, God, I AM, Spirit, Consciousness, Cosmos... etc.


Now what?
 Quoting: ll 24392356


Well, I don't see the need to attribute the quality of intelligence to the universe, if that is what you are suggesting. It seems to be a vast chaotic mess that we find ourselves in. Worshiping the universe would be like worshiping a paper towel.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


define which God you speak of and then we can get into a debate as to whether or not you are supposed to worship anything at all.
 Quoting: Oyster


You didn't read my original post. You might find that we agree a lot more that you think.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


i did read it.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 02:05 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
refrain from deviating from this argument, like bringing up evolution
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Why would we not bring up the most obvious proof for the existence of god?

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33200643


bump
smokahontas

User ID: 23237790
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01/28/2013 02:08 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Man invented god.... It is clear because God has low self esteem, requires your worship and adoration. Is Jealous, Wrathful and Vengeful. He is needy, demanding, and unfair. That can only come from man.
"I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire

"Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored." Aldous Huxley
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 02:13 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Is anyone at all able to come up with a counter argument to my original post?
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 02:14 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Is anyone at all able to come up with a counter argument to my original post?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Yes, evolution would be counter-argument, but you don't want to discuss it.
smokahontas

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01/28/2013 02:19 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Is anyone at all able to come up with a counter argument to my original post?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Yes, evolution would be counter-argument, but you don't want to discuss it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33200643


Amen, Natural Selection, Evolution, Adaptability... They never wnat to discuss that!
"I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire

"Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored." Aldous Huxley
BOWMAN
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01/28/2013 02:19 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Is anyone at all able to come up with a counter argument to my original post?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Yes, evolution would be counter-argument, but you don't want to discuss it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33200643


How does the magic word "evolution" dismiss God?

What if God set it into motion?

I'm being totally hypothetical just like evolution when I ask this. chuckle


------
"You have to take seriously the notion that understanding the universe is your responsibility, because the only understanding of the universe that will be useful to you is your own understanding." ~ Terence McKenna

The Real You

[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 02:20 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Is anyone at all able to come up with a counter argument to my original post?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Yes, evolution would be counter-argument, but you don't want to discuss it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33200643


How does the magic word "evolution" dismiss God?

What if God set it into motion?

I'm being totally hypothetical just like evolution when I ask this. chuckle

 Quoting: BOWMAN


Evolution is a lie. Therefore atheists would need to acknowledge the existence of a creator of life.
smokahontas

User ID: 23237790
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01/28/2013 02:21 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Is anyone at all able to come up with a counter argument to my original post?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Yes, evolution would be counter-argument, but you don't want to discuss it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33200643


How does the magic word "evolution" dismiss God?

What if God set it into motion?

I'm being totally hypothetical just like evolution when I ask this. chuckle


------
 Quoting: BOWMAN


Read the Making of the Fittest.
"I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire

"Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored." Aldous Huxley
smokahontas

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01/28/2013 02:22 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Watch Letting Go of God, by Julia Sweeney
"I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire

"Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored." Aldous Huxley
BOWMAN
fantasy sports

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01/28/2013 02:22 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Is anyone at all able to come up with a counter argument to my original post?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Yes, evolution would be counter-argument, but you don't want to discuss it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33200643


How does the magic word "evolution" dismiss God?

What if God set it into motion?

I'm being totally hypothetical just like evolution when I ask this. chuckle


------
 Quoting: BOWMAN


Read the Making of the Fittest.
 Quoting: smokahontas


And I would find a summation as to why my hypothesis cannot be true in that book?


------
"You have to take seriously the notion that understanding the universe is your responsibility, because the only understanding of the universe that will be useful to you is your own understanding." ~ Terence McKenna

The Real You

[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 02:22 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Is anyone at all able to come up with a counter argument to my original post?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Yes, evolution would be counter-argument, but you don't want to discuss it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33200643


Could you google what a red herring is, as in logic, and show the class what you learned today?

Thanks, downs syndrome troll.