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How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?

 
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 03:34 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
...


Could you google what a red herring is, as in logic, and show the class what you learned today?

Thanks, downs syndrome troll.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Wow, how mature! Making fun of a Down's Syndrome child. How old are you? Let me guess, maybe around 10 to 12.

I can completely understand why you wouldn't want to discuss evolution? Evolution is a course taken in college and it is quite difficult. You are still taking History and Math I or something? I can understand.

But, anywho, it is easier to just say that invisible man in the sky created everything. Invisible man who had a son who was a carpenter created every single planet and every star on one day, I think it was Wednesday, right AFTER he created all the animals or something. And he liked some man so he had him build a big boat and put two of every animal on it. He even had Noah swim across the ocean to Australia and get a pair of kangaroos, (Noah put them on his back to swim back across the ocean.) So much easier that way, honey.

Seriously, creationists are too fucking stupid to discuss this subject with. They have no brains. They do not think, they just follow. That is why we call them sheep. Sheep are stupid animals that are scared to death of one single dog. There are millions of sheep in the world.

Now go do your homework, honey. Burn up a sacrifice for your God because we all know how much he loves the smell of burnt meat sacrifices. He IS up there in the sky watching you, you know. It will all work out for you, honey.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20657814


I'm atheist, so your post doesn't make any sense. You're the 10th person to not read it. Good job
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Amazing how stupid the average atheist is, isn't it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33200643


This person was trying to say that I am an idiot for not believing in evolution. I do. I am atheist. So it does not make any sense. Are you brain dead?
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 03:35 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
...


Your post is opinion, how can one argue with your opinion... I do not find his presence obvious personally.
 Quoting: smokahontas


Nobody is actually reading my post. Try reading it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


we've all read it bro.

when you dont come up with a response your auto-reply shouldnt be "read my original post".
 Quoting: Oyster


What belief system do you think I belong to? Athiest? Christian?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


you told us in the first sentence. you arent a believer so given the two choices i would say athiest.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 03:35 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
By definition any believer in god is an atheist..

As none of them believe in other peoples god's by theirs...


Discuss.........................whatever
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 03:36 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
...

Wow, how mature! Making fun of a Down's Syndrome child. How old are you? Let me guess, maybe around 10 to 12.

I can completely understand why you wouldn't want to discuss evolution? Evolution is a course taken in college and it is quite difficult. You are still taking History and Math I or something? I can understand.

But, anywho, it is easier to just say that invisible man in the sky created everything. Invisible man who had a son who was a carpenter created every single planet and every star on one day, I think it was Wednesday, right AFTER he created all the animals or something. And he liked some man so he had him build a big boat and put two of every animal on it. He even had Noah swim across the ocean to Australia and get a pair of kangaroos, (Noah put them on his back to swim back across the ocean.) So much easier that way, honey.

Seriously, creationists are too fucking stupid to discuss this subject with. They have no brains. They do not think, they just follow. That is why we call them sheep. Sheep are stupid animals that are scared to death of one single dog. There are millions of sheep in the world.

Now go do your homework, honey. Burn up a sacrifice for your God because we all know how much he loves the smell of burnt meat sacrifices. He IS up there in the sky watching you, you know. It will all work out for you, honey.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20657814


I'm atheist, so your post doesn't make any sense. You're the 10th person to not read it. Good job
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Amazing how stupid the average atheist is, isn't it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33200643


This person was trying to say that I am an idiot for not believing in evolution. I do. I am atheist. So it does not make any sense. Are you brain dead?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Look, retard.

He is an atheist, and he didn't even grasp that you are also an atheist. In fact none of the other atheists in this thread even read you post or were able to grasp its meaning.
9
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01/28/2013 03:37 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
I have come to realize that this is the most popular question posed by believers. It was this way 10 years ago when I started debating and it's the same today.

The argument is basically this: I observe X, I have no explanation for X, therefore god exists. It comes in many forms. Some prefer the apparent "fine-tuning" of the universe. Some prefer the beauty or complexity of the world around us. How could it come from nothing out of chance?

So, an average individual would then assume that someone made the universe...end of discussion. However, if believers could fathom the following concept, you will make years of progress in philosophy in just one essay.

We have a complex universe whose origins cannot be explained. If you were to imagine a god coming from nothing, it would further complicate the problem. So, many people prefer to think of god as existing "outside" of time, as it were, and thus not subject to an explanation of origin since god always existed. So, pointing to the apparent linear nature of the universe (big bang) seems to indicate that it needs a "mover" or creator to set it in motion. I would like to propose that the universe may not be linear and that "time" is a product of the universe. Essentially, I am stating that the universe is also "outside" of time, and thus not subject to the need for an explanation of its origins. This can be achieved by the big bang/big crunch hypothesis, or thinking of the observable universe as a subset of the whole, rather than the entire universe. What we see may merely be a bubble inside a greater existence, where time exists only in that bubble. As far fetched as this seems, it is on par with picturing a creator without origins.

Now, you may notice that this actually simplifies the problem of explaining the origins of existence in general because instead of a super-being always existing, now all you have is existence itself always existing. I prefer this argument because as crazy as it sounds, it sounds LESS crazy than a super-being always existing and then creating the universe. Of course I am not saying that I know for certain this is the case, but for individuals willing to accept a creator outside of time, it appears that you should have no reason to dismiss the universe being outside of time.

Please, trolls and low-IQ individuals, refrain from deviating from this argument, like bringing up evolution or talking about the moon and global warming. There are other threads for that. We know you fools do this-because you can't grasp this concept.

Discuss!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Imo,

Well, they say... An atheist questions god. So in the end, an atheist aill have utmost potential when he/she finds god.

God does not shun the atheist. Only the
9
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01/28/2013 03:37 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Ignorant?
smokahontas

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01/28/2013 03:40 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
"God" as an idea exists. As a being not so much...thats as far as i can go.
"I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire

"Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored." Aldous Huxley
smokahontas

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01/28/2013 03:47 PM

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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
"God" as an idea exists. As a being not so much...thats as far as i can go.
 Quoting: smokahontas


Great book on this subject.... The Evolution of God.... Great read
"I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire

"Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored." Aldous Huxley
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 04:17 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Just because you don't understand how something happened and say goddidit; just because you can't conceive of some other thing that could have caused it, doesn't mean goddidit. It's not proof of god either, it just means you don't know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32353371


I can't conceive of any other explanation because no other explanation can fully satisfy first cause. God (whether you believe in him or not, or know who or what he is) is the only thing that can explain how we got here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4964319


If you read my post, you would see that your counter argument has already been addressed. If it is easy for you to fathom a super-being existing outside of time and having no need for an explanation of how that being got there, why is it so hard for you to imagine a universe existing outside of time and thus not subject to the need to explain how it got there.

Which is more likely:
A) A super-being always existed and does not need explanation for origin
B) A universe always existed and does not need explanation for origin

Time is a product of the universe, existing inside it just as gravity does, but the universe itself is not subject to time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


I'm pretty sure atheists don't believe that there is a super-being existing outside of time. Why would they then just accept that the universe itself is not subject to time? your initial argument makes absolutely no sense
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 04:21 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
I'm not atheist but I'm also not sold on the idea of having blind faith in something that puts bias in my search for answers. I think a more appropriate question would be - why do some people believe that creation happened by an entity with personality?

I mean, to subject whatever the source of our existence is to human-like characteristics is to say that "it" has emotions and makes decisions based on mood.

Then again, while we're throwing around the idea of a paradox like creating something from nothing, it's also worth considering that there has never been a state of nothingness. If there was a point that lacked any form of existence, it would have "existed" for an infinite period of time and in turn, our starting point would have been completely arbitrary.

Regardless of that possibility though, everything in life works in a perfect order; everything is symmetrical. So, to rephrase the question again, why does this form of order need to have intentions?

For me, I'm fine if you want to believe that, but to simply conclude that "God did it" and we can't come up with a better explanation is to give up too easily on this search for answers. I think that if God does exist (in the context of one with intentions) then I would be a disappoint to not use this brain I've been gifted with to the fullest extent of my abilities. To believe that we are to learn from our experiences is to accept that there is a purpose for us to be able to think so critically.

One final thought (sorry, this rant went longer than I planned)...

I can acknowledge that we will never understand everything to a degree of 100% predictability, even if free will is an illusion. The continuum hypothesis states that between any two measurable points, there are an infinite number of more measurable points. By that logic, no matter how well we can design new forms of math, there will always be a more accurate scale to use in our calculations.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 04:22 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Just because you don't understand how something happened and say goddidit; just because you can't conceive of some other thing that could have caused it, doesn't mean goddidit. It's not proof of god either, it just means you don't know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32353371


I can't conceive of any other explanation because no other explanation can fully satisfy first cause. God (whether you believe in him or not, or know who or what he is) is the only thing that can explain how we got here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4964319


If you read my post, you would see that your counter argument has already been addressed. If it is easy for you to fathom a super-being existing outside of time and having no need for an explanation of how that being got there, why is it so hard for you to imagine a universe existing outside of time and thus not subject to the need to explain how it got there.

Which is more likely:
A) A super-being always existed and does not need explanation for origin
B) A universe always existed and does not need explanation for origin

Time is a product of the universe, existing inside it just as gravity does, but the universe itself is not subject to time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


I'm pretty sure atheists don't believe that there is a super-being existing outside of time. Why would they then just accept that the universe itself is not subject to time? your initial argument makes absolutely no sense
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21666560


If you read my original post, you would know that I am an atheist, and this thread is directed at believers. Go read it. We will wait right here.... Make sense now?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 04:37 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
To clear things up for those of you who don't know how to read, I am an atheist. This post was designed to get believers to question the fundamental and most popular argument posed by believers.

They already believe that god can exist "outside" of time, as they put it. And, this concept of being outside time is the reason they give for the lack of need to explain where god came from, as he always existed. So, it is not that hard to place this concept, being outside time, on the universe itself. This is actually a simpler explanation because you don't have to believe that a super-being always existed, merely a chaotic universe.

The fact that the big bang shows a linear nature of our observable universe is irrelevant because time came from the big bang. Time is a quality of the universe, just as gravity, but he universe itself is not subject to time.

I know you guys won't read this either so I actually have no idea why I am posting. God day.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 04:51 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
I'm not atheist but I'm also not sold on the idea of having blind faith in something that puts bias in my search for answers. I think a more appropriate question would be - why do some people believe that creation happened by an entity with personality?

I mean, to subject whatever the source of our existence is to human-like characteristics is to say that "it" has emotions and makes decisions based on mood.

Then again, while we're throwing around the idea of a paradox like creating something from nothing, it's also worth considering that there has never been a state of nothingness. If there was a point that lacked any form of existence, it would have "existed" for an infinite period of time and in turn, our starting point would have been completely arbitrary.

Regardless of that possibility though, everything in life works in a perfect order; everything is symmetrical. So, to rephrase the question again, why does this form of order need to have intentions?

For me, I'm fine if you want to believe that, but to simply conclude that "God did it" and we can't come up with a better explanation is to give up too easily on this search for answers. I think that if God does exist (in the context of one with intentions) then I would be a disappoint to not use this brain I've been gifted with to the fullest extent of my abilities. To believe that we are to learn from our experiences is to accept that there is a purpose for us to be able to think so critically.

One final thought (sorry, this rant went longer than I planned)...

I can acknowledge that we will never understand everything to a degree of 100% predictability, even if free will is an illusion. The continuum hypothesis states that between any two measurable points, there are an infinite number of more measurable points. By that logic, no matter how well we can design new forms of math, there will always be a more accurate scale to use in our calculations.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


Interesting post. I would like to add that when a person looks at certain phenomena, such as planets rotating around stars, moons around planets, stars around galaxies, many would conclude that this "order" would be evidence of a creator. However, a quick study of the forces of gravity, centrifugal motion, and so on, would be all that is needed to explain this apparent design. Throw a bunch of "stuff" into space and it will quickly condense from gravity, forming balls. The most dense clusters become stars or black holes, and the rest planets and moons.

Gravity forces objects to become spherical, especially as they gain mass. This concept can be applied to many other areas that man once thought were proof of design. The order comes from chaos naturally.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 04:58 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
To clear things up for those of you who don't know how to read, I am an atheist. This post was designed to get believers to question the fundamental and most popular argument posed by believers.

They already believe that god can exist "outside" of time, as they put it. And, this concept of being outside time is the reason they give for the lack of need to explain where god came from, as he always existed. So, it is not that hard to place this concept, being outside time, on the universe itself. This is actually a simpler explanation because you don't have to believe that a super-being always existed, merely a chaotic universe.

The fact that the big bang shows a linear nature of our observable universe is irrelevant because time came from the big bang. Time is a quality of the universe, just as gravity, but he universe itself is not subject to time.

I know you guys won't read this either so I actually have no idea why I am posting. God day.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

I wanted to apologize. I am sorry and will admit that I didn't really bother to read the entire post. I glanced at the ending, saw that you didn't want to discuss evolution and made the assumption that you were just another Christian trying to prove the existance of some God. It was my fault.

I went back and actually read your post. Amazing, I know. What you said made a lot of sense. I think the universe always existed. If they can say that God always existed, then it always did make more sense to me that the universe always existed. The earth is not 6,000 years old, like some creationists say. It makes sense that the universe is much older than we could even imagine. And it therefore would exist outside of time, as we know of time, that is.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 05:08 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
To clear things up for those of you who don't know how to read, I am an atheist. This post was designed to get believers to question the fundamental and most popular argument posed by believers.

They already believe that god can exist "outside" of time, as they put it. And, this concept of being outside time is the reason they give for the lack of need to explain where god came from, as he always existed. So, it is not that hard to place this concept, being outside time, on the universe itself. This is actually a simpler explanation because you don't have to believe that a super-being always existed, merely a chaotic universe.

The fact that the big bang shows a linear nature of our observable universe is irrelevant because time came from the big bang. Time is a quality of the universe, just as gravity, but he universe itself is not subject to time.

I know you guys won't read this either so I actually have no idea why I am posting. God day.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

I wanted to apologize. I am sorry and will admit that I didn't really bother to read the entire post. I glanced at the ending, saw that you didn't want to discuss evolution and made the assumption that you were just another Christian trying to prove the existance of some God. It was my fault.

I went back and actually read your post. Amazing, I know. What you said made a lot of sense. I think the universe always existed. If they can say that God always existed, then it always did make more sense to me that the universe always existed. The earth is not 6,000 years old, like some creationists say. It makes sense that the universe is much older than we could even imagine. And it therefore would exist outside of time, as we know of time, that is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20657814


To the contrary, I actually enjoy discussing evolution. Its my specialty. However, clouding up one thread with a hundred arguments really gets nobody anywhere. Hence the red herring fallacy. This thread was meant as a first step in that direction. Once enough people can actually understand what I said, we can move on to something else.

All I want is for the believers to either propose a counter argument, or admit that they understand the concept I proposed in the original post.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 05:22 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
people usually will click on forums in order to disagree, or to agree. it's not common to actually have your mind changed. communicating the uncommunicatable is quite difficult without using paradoxical tactics.
GOOD JOB THOUGH
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 05:41 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
people usually will click on forums in order to disagree, or to agree. it's not common to actually have your mind changed. communicating the uncommunicatable is quite difficult without using paradoxical tactics.
GOOD JOB THOUGH
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26868696


True. This is why I am trying to keep it simple. Either agree with the concept I am proposing or form a logical counter argument. If you haven't noticed already, they usually take the 3rd option, which is simply muddying up the thread with irrelevant topics. It's ok, though. At least I am trying. I changed my mind years ago because of some asshole on the internet just like me. Just trying to pass the baton.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2013 05:45 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
I'm not atheist but I'm also not sold on the idea of having blind faith in something that puts bias in my search for answers. I think a more appropriate question would be - why do some people believe that creation happened by an entity with personality?

I mean, to subject whatever the source of our existence is to human-like characteristics is to say that "it" has emotions and makes decisions based on mood.

Then again, while we're throwing around the idea of a paradox like creating something from nothing, it's also worth considering that there has never been a state of nothingness. If there was a point that lacked any form of existence, it would have "existed" for an infinite period of time and in turn, our starting point would have been completely arbitrary.

Regardless of that possibility though, everything in life works in a perfect order; everything is symmetrical. So, to rephrase the question again, why does this form of order need to have intentions?

For me, I'm fine if you want to believe that, but to simply conclude that "God did it" and we can't come up with a better explanation is to give up too easily on this search for answers. I think that if God does exist (in the context of one with intentions) then I would be a disappoint to not use this brain I've been gifted with to the fullest extent of my abilities. To believe that we are to learn from our experiences is to accept that there is a purpose for us to be able to think so critically.

One final thought (sorry, this rant went longer than I planned)...

I can acknowledge that we will never understand everything to a degree of 100% predictability, even if free will is an illusion. The continuum hypothesis states that between any two measurable points, there are an infinite number of more measurable points. By that logic, no matter how well we can design new forms of math, there will always be a more accurate scale to use in our calculations.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


Interesting post. I would like to add that when a person looks at certain phenomena, such as planets rotating around stars, moons around planets, stars around galaxies, many would conclude that this "order" would be evidence of a creator. However, a quick study of the forces of gravity, centrifugal motion, and so on, would be all that is needed to explain this apparent design. Throw a bunch of "stuff" into space and it will quickly condense from gravity, forming balls. The most dense clusters become stars or black holes, and the rest planets and moons.

Gravity forces objects to become spherical, especially as they gain mass. This concept can be applied to many other areas that man once thought were proof of design. The order comes from chaos naturally.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Exactly. Some people preemptively credit certain aspects of our universe to a supernatural force. We understand something like gravity to the point where we can predict where an astral body will be centuries from now. Is this not the line we draw when someone claims an event to be a miracle?

The real challenge in understanding nature will be figuring out whether or not we have free will. Our personalities and everything that makes up our actions, both voluntary and reflex, could very well just be the result of neurons firing in a predictable pattern based on the sequence of experiences we've each had since conception. Life could just be balls on a billiard table following some quantum calculation. The scary thing is that it's been proven that the subconscious knows what we will do before we deliberately "choose" a decision.

So, hypothetically, let's say that's true - that we are just mechanical animals carrying elements the same way inorganic bodies do in space. This is where the rabbit hole gets deep.

If the day comes that we find proof that this is just a "realistic" movie - that we have emotions so we can experience pain and joy in order to believe it's not fiction - we would lose appreciation for everything we have.

If that happens, I would imagine the only thing we would have any desire to do would be to use our understanding of life to create new life that is ignorant enough to believe in free will. We tell someone new to watch this movie and obviously, we don't spoil the ending.

Soooooo... what if that already happened and that's how we got here?

Afterthought: There is a movie that parables this perfectly, but I can't ask if you've seen it without ruining the ending. I'm throwing this in here just in case great minds think alike and you know the movie I'm talking about. If not, forget I said anything lol
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01/28/2013 05:48 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
haha i see truth in everything, but finding it in the opinions on here is a challenge!
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2013 06:06 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
I'm not atheist but I'm also not sold on the idea of having blind faith in something that puts bias in my search for answers. I think a more appropriate question would be - why do some people believe that creation happened by an entity with personality?

I mean, to subject whatever the source of our existence is to human-like characteristics is to say that "it" has emotions and makes decisions based on mood.

Then again, while we're throwing around the idea of a paradox like creating something from nothing, it's also worth considering that there has never been a state of nothingness. If there was a point that lacked any form of existence, it would have "existed" for an infinite period of time and in turn, our starting point would have been completely arbitrary.

Regardless of that possibility though, everything in life works in a perfect order; everything is symmetrical. So, to rephrase the question again, why does this form of order need to have intentions?

For me, I'm fine if you want to believe that, but to simply conclude that "God did it" and we can't come up with a better explanation is to give up too easily on this search for answers. I think that if God does exist (in the context of one with intentions) then I would be a disappoint to not use this brain I've been gifted with to the fullest extent of my abilities. To believe that we are to learn from our experiences is to accept that there is a purpose for us to be able to think so critically.

One final thought (sorry, this rant went longer than I planned)...

I can acknowledge that we will never understand everything to a degree of 100% predictability, even if free will is an illusion. The continuum hypothesis states that between any two measurable points, there are an infinite number of more measurable points. By that logic, no matter how well we can design new forms of math, there will always be a more accurate scale to use in our calculations.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


Interesting post. I would like to add that when a person looks at certain phenomena, such as planets rotating around stars, moons around planets, stars around galaxies, many would conclude that this "order" would be evidence of a creator. However, a quick study of the forces of gravity, centrifugal motion, and so on, would be all that is needed to explain this apparent design. Throw a bunch of "stuff" into space and it will quickly condense from gravity, forming balls. The most dense clusters become stars or black holes, and the rest planets and moons.

Gravity forces objects to become spherical, especially as they gain mass. This concept can be applied to many other areas that man once thought were proof of design. The order comes from chaos naturally.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Exactly. Some people preemptively credit certain aspects of our universe to a supernatural force. We understand something like gravity to the point where we can predict where an astral body will be centuries from now. Is this not the line we draw when someone claims an event to be a miracle?

The real challenge in understanding nature will be figuring out whether or not we have free will. Our personalities and everything that makes up our actions, both voluntary and reflex, could very well just be the result of neurons firing in a predictable pattern based on the sequence of experiences we've each had since conception. Life could just be balls on a billiard table following some quantum calculation. The scary thing is that it's been proven that the subconscious knows what we will do before we deliberately "choose" a decision.

So, hypothetically, let's say that's true - that we are just mechanical animals carrying elements the same way inorganic bodies do in space. This is where the rabbit hole gets deep.

If the day comes that we find proof that this is just a "realistic" movie - that we have emotions so we can experience pain and joy in order to believe it's not fiction - we would lose appreciation for everything we have.

If that happens, I would imagine the only thing we would have any desire to do would be to use our understanding of life to create new life that is ignorant enough to believe in free will. We tell someone new to watch this movie and obviously, we don't spoil the ending.

Soooooo... what if that already happened and that's how we got here?

Afterthought: There is a movie that parables this perfectly, but I can't ask if you've seen it without ruining the ending. I'm throwing this in here just in case great minds think alike and you know the movie I'm talking about. If not, forget I said anything lol
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


No, I don't think I saw the movie you're referring to. I'd like to know which movie, though. That's not fair! Also, I thought Sam Harris already killed freewill. At least the remnants of that hope I had were gone after his book.

I hate to bring up Joe Rogan, but I found his analysis of humans pretty entertaining. Humans on Earth is like mold on a sandwich. We are here to create a layer of plastic.
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01/28/2013 06:11 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
No, I don't think I saw the movie you're referring to. I'd like to know which movie, though. That's not fair! Also, I thought Sam Harris already killed freewill. At least the remnants of that hope I had were gone after his book.

I hate to bring up Joe Rogan, but I found his analysis of humans pretty entertaining. Humans on Earth is like mold on a sandwich. We are here to create a layer of plastic.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


Sam Harris says some interesting things. I'm still new to his material but I'll check it out.

Joe is quite a character. I agree with him about the bacteria bit though.

"Plastic, asshole!" - George Carlin
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01/28/2013 06:57 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Just because you don't understand how something happened and say goddidit; just because you can't conceive of some other thing that could have caused it, doesn't mean goddidit. It's not proof of god either, it just means you don't know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32353371


I can't conceive of any other explanation because no other explanation can fully satisfy first cause. God (whether you believe in him or not, or know who or what he is) is the only thing that can explain how we got here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4964319


If you read my post, you would see that your counter argument has already been addressed. If it is easy for you to fathom a super-being existing outside of time and having no need for an explanation of how that being got there, why is it so hard for you to imagine a universe existing outside of time and thus not subject to the need to explain how it got there.

Which is more likely:
A) A super-being always existed and does not need explanation for origin
B) A universe always existed and does not need explanation for origin

Time is a product of the universe, existing inside it just as gravity does, but the universe itself is not subject to time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


How can you be sure of this? We are in the universe and there is obviously time. Are you just saying another universe produced our universe or that time is an illusion? Because there was a beginning to our universe. How it came to be is the real question. You can't say this universe has always been here.
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01/28/2013 07:29 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
Just because you don't understand how something happened and say goddidit; just because you can't conceive of some other thing that could have caused it, doesn't mean goddidit. It's not proof of god either, it just means you don't know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32353371


I can't conceive of any other explanation because no other explanation can fully satisfy first cause. God (whether you believe in him or not, or know who or what he is) is the only thing that can explain how we got here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4964319


If you read my post, you would see that your counter argument has already been addressed. If it is easy for you to fathom a super-being existing outside of time and having no need for an explanation of how that being got there, why is it so hard for you to imagine a universe existing outside of time and thus not subject to the need to explain how it got there.

Which is more likely:
A) A super-being always existed and does not need explanation for origin
B) A universe always existed and does not need explanation for origin

Time is a product of the universe, existing inside it just as gravity does, but the universe itself is not subject to time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274


How can you be sure of this? We are in the universe and there is obviously time. Are you just saying another universe produced our universe or that time is an illusion? Because there was a beginning to our universe. How it came to be is the real question. You can't say this universe has always been here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33210764


Clearly I am not stating anything is fact. Food for thought only. I believe that in the end, reality must make sense. I'll go through this quickly. Time is a force that can be manipulated by speed and gravity. Time is part of "space-time." It exists inside the universe. It does not exist outside of the universe, therefore, the question "where did the universe come from?" makes no sense. It just is.

The concept of the universe is not subject to time and therefore does not need an explanation for what or who created it. This is the reason believers say "god" must be the prime mover and does not need an explanation for who or what created god. If he exists outside time, you can't ask what came before god or who created him because it doesn't make sense.

This is why asking what happened before the big bang makes no sense. Time came from the big bang along with everything else like gravity and matter. I prefer the big bang/big crunch concept because it does make logical sense. Put enough matter into a small space and it explodes. Gravity brings it back together. Dark energy and dark matter are just "fill in" terms for what we haven't found yet. This vast amount of matter is subject to gravity, therefore it would pull itself together forming a "crunch." When it condenses, it will explode again forever.

Additionally, there is a reason why asking what "nothing" is doesn't make sense. It doesn't exist, therefore something must exist, hence the universe you find yourself in today.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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02/03/2013 04:55 PM
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Re: How can atheists not see the obvious presence of god?
LOP is better

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