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if satan was once an angel...

 
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 03:39 AM
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if satan was once an angel...
Then why was he able to disobey god if he didnt have free will?
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 03:44 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
He was a Djinn who was so high in status because of his worship he was allowed to stand before God side by side with angels. Djinn have free will
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 03:45 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
He was a Djinn who was so high in status because of his worship he was allowed to stand before God side by side with angels. Djinn have free will
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27037689


is djinn*
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/29/2013 03:51 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
but there is no room for a djinn in christian bibles.. Thats mixing two beliefs isnt it?
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 03:52 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Check out this video on Youtube called the Creation and Fall of lucifer:
[link to www.youtube.com]

The video is actually taken from the movie Halo but the commentary is what you want to focus on.
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 03:53 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
but there is no room for a djinn in christian bibles.. Thats mixing two beliefs isnt it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16264881


There is just one belief being presented here. I would like to hear what a christian would have to say though
Ozicell

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01/29/2013 03:53 AM

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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Where does it say that angels don't have free will? scratching
That which is - has already been, And what is to be - has already been. Quote: King Solomon.
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 03:54 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
but there is no room for a djinn in christian bibles.. Thats mixing two beliefs isnt it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16264881


There is just one belief being presented here. I would like to hear what a christian would have to say though
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27037689


Ive given you the islamic narrative verbatim
Spittin'Cesium

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01/29/2013 03:55 AM

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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Then why was he able to disobey god if he didnt have free will?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16264881


For you -

'AND on the seventh day there went forth from the presence of God a mighty angel, full of wrath and consuming, and God gave unto him the dominion of the outermost sphere.

2. Eternity brought forth time; the boundless gave birth to limit; being descended into generation.

3. As lightning I beheld Satan fall from heaven, splendid in strength and fury.

4. Among the Gods is none like unto Him, into whose hand are committed the kingdoms, the power and the glory of the worlds:

5. Thrones and empires, the dynasties of kings, the fall of nations, the birth of churches, the triumphs of time.

6. They arise and pass, they were and are not; the sea and the dust and the immense mystery of space devour them.

7. The tramp of armies, the voices of joy and of pain, the cry of the new-born babe, the shout of the warrior mortally smitten.

8. Marriage, divorce, division, violent deaths, martyrdoms, tyrannous ignorances, the impotence of passionate protest, and the mad longing for oblivion:

9. The eyes of the tiger in the jungle, the fang of the snake, the fœtor of slaughter-houses, the wail of innocent beasts in pain:

10. The innumerable incarnations of spirit, the strife towards manhood, the ceaseless pulse and current of desire:--

11. These are his who beareth all the Gods on his shoulders;[V] who establisheth the pillars of necessity and fate.

12. Many names hath God given him, names of mystery, secret and terrible.

p. 170

13. God called him Satan the Adversary, because matter opposeth spirit, and time accuseth even the saints of the Lord.

14. And the Destroyer, for his arm breaketh and grindeth to pieces; wherefore the fear and the dread of him are upon all flesh.

15. And the Avenger, for he is the anger of God; his breath shall burn up all the souls of the wicked.

16. And the Sifter, for he straineth all things through his sieve, dividing the husk from the grain; discovering the thoughts of the heart; proving and purifying the spirit of man.

17. And the Deceiver, for he maketh the false appear true, and concealeth the real under the mask of illusion.

18. And the Tempter, for he setteth snares before the feet of the elect: he beguileth with vain shows, and seduceth with enchantments.

19. Blessed are they who withstand his subtlety: they shall be called the Sons of God, and shall enter in at the beautiful gates.

20. For Satan is the doorkeeper of the temple of the King: he standeth in Solomon's porch; he holdeth. the keys of the sanctuary;

21. That no man may enter therein save the Anointed, having the arcanum of Hermes.

22. For Satan is the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom.

23. He is the devourer of the unwise and the evil: they shall all be meat and drink to him.

24. Whatsoever he devoureth, that shall never more return into being.

25. Fear him, for after he hath killed, he hath power to cast into hell.

26. But he is the servant of the Sons of God, and of the children of light.

27. They shall go before him, and he shall follow the steps of the wise.

28. Stand in awe of him and sin not: speak his name with trembling; and beseech God daily to deliver thee.

29. For Satan is the magistrate of the justice of God: he beareth the balance and the sword,

30. To execute judgment and vengeance upon all who come short of the commandments of God; to weigh their works, to measure their desire, and to number their days,

31. For to him are committed weight and measure and number.

p. 171

32. And all things must pass under the rod and through the balance, and be fathomed by the sounding-lead.

33. Therefore Satan is the minister of God, Lord of the seven mansions of Hades, the angel of the manifest worlds.

34. And God hath put a girdle about his loins, and the name of the girdle is Death.

35. Threefold are its coils, for threefold is the power of Death, dissolving the body, the ghost, and the soul.

36. And that girdle is black within, but where Phoibos strikes it is silver.

37. None of the Gods is girt save Satan, for upon him only is the shame of generation.

38. He hath lost his virginal estate: uncovering heavenly secrets, he hath entered into bondage.

39. He encompasseth with bonds and limits all things which are made: he putteth chains round about the worlds, and determineth their orbits.

40. By him are creation and appearance; by him birth and transformation; the day of begetting and the night of death.

41. The glory of Satan is the shadow of the Lord: the throne of Satan is the footstool of Adonai.

42. Twain are the armies of God: in heaven the hosts of Michael; in the abyss the legions of Satan.

43. These are the unmanifest and the manifest; the free and the bound; the virginal and the fallen.

44. And both are the ministers of the Father, fulfilling the word divine.

45. The legions of Satan are the creative emanations, having the shapes of dragons, of Titans, and of elemental gods;

46. Forsaking the intelligible world, 1 seeking manifestation, renouncing their first estate;

47. Which were cast out into chaos, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

(2)

48. Evil is the result of limitation, and Satan is the Lord of limit.

49. He is the father of lies, because matter is the cause of illusion.

p. 172

50. To understand the secret of the kingdom of God, and to read the riddle of Maya, this is to have Satan under foot.

51. He only can put Satan under foot who is released by thought from the bonds of desire.

52. Nature is the allegory of spirit: all that appeareth to the sense is deceit: to know the truth,--this alone shall make men free.

53. For the kingdom of Satan is the house of matter: yea, his mansion is the sepulchre of Golgotha, wherein on the seventh day the Lord lay sleeping, keeping the Sabbath of the unmanifest.

54. For the day of Satan is the night of spirit: the manifestation of the worlds of form is the rest of the worlds informulate.

55. Holy and venerable is the Sabbath of God: blessed and sanctified is the name of the angel of Hades;

56. Whom the Anointed shall overcome, rising again from the dead on the first day of the week.

57. For the place of Satan is the bourne of divine impulsion: there is the arrest of the outgoing force; Luza, the station of pause and slumber:

58. Where Jacob lay down and dreamed, beholding the ladder which reached from earth to heaven.

59. For Jacob is the planetary angel Iacchos, the Lord of the body;

60. Who hath left his father's house, and is gone out into a far country.

61. Yet is Luza none other than Bethel; the kingdom of Satan is become the kingdom of God and of His Christ.

62. For there the Anointed awakeneth, arising from sleep, and goeth his way rejoicing;

63. Having seen the vision of God, and beheld the secret of Satan;

64. Even as the Lord arose from the dead and brake the seal of the sepulchre;[V]

65. Which is the portal of heaven, Luza, the house of separation, the place of stony sleep;

66. Where is born the centripetal force, drawing the soul upward and inward to God;

67. Recalling Existence into Being, resuming the kingdoms of matter in spirit;[W]

68. Until Satan return unto his first estate, and enter again into the heavenly obedience;

p. 173

69. Having fulfilled the will of the Father, and accomplished his holy ministry,

70. Which was ordained of God before the worlds, for the splendour of the manifest, and for the generation of Christ our Lord;[X]

71. Who shall judge the quick and the dead, putting all things under his feet; whose are the dominion, the power, the glory, and the Amen
.'
The thing that hath been,
is That which shall be;
and that which is done is that which shall be done:and there is no new thing under the Sun.
Ecclesiastes 9:1
pi

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01/29/2013 03:56 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Satan burns till the end of time...
Ozicell

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01/29/2013 03:58 AM

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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Satan burns till the end of time...
 Quoting: pi


At least that's not forever as most say!
That which is - has already been, And what is to be - has already been. Quote: King Solomon.
icepack

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01/29/2013 04:00 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
a scapegoat sometimes comes in handy with certain intentions.
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:00 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
"If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!"
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:04 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
if satan was once an angel...


WHAT

He still is an angel read the BIBLE

“Now there was a day when the sons of Elohim came to present themselves before God, and the Adversary came also among them” (Job 1:6).

The Book of Job clearly shows us that the Adversary. In the original text of the Bible in our verse is "Satan" works for God. He is only doing his "job".

The story of Job comes teach us this and many other wonderful
things

read hear

learn all about it


[link to godssecret.wordpress.com]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/29/2013 04:05 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
The bible says angel where created without free will... Also the in the bible more people have perished at the hands of god than satan.. So how was ge so bad.. Im not a christian i once was.. But it just has to many holes.. Im not bashing christians here just asking questions to understand things
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:05 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
if luci is an angel...

Then why is luci able to disobey GOD if luci doesn't have free will?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16264881


FTFY.


Because it is GODs will.
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:06 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Earth is slowly boiling.

Might be a good time to take off the frogsuits...
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:10 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
if satan was once an angel...


WHAT

He still is an angel read the BIBLE

“Now there was a day when the sons of Elohim came to present themselves before God, and the Adversary came also among them” (Job 1:6).

The Book of Job clearly shows us that the Adversary. In the original text of the Bible in our verse is "Satan" works for God. He is only doing his "job".

The story of Job comes teach us this and many other wonderful
things

read hear

learn all about it


[link to godssecret.wordpress.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33255325


Notice what is said:

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.



Satan tells God to put forth God's hand to smite Job.

What happens next?


Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:11 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Same guy.


For extra credit, if monkeys used a large hadron collider to transform Satan into an angel of light, do they have redress of grievance...
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:12 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
The bible says angel where created without free will... Also the in the bible more people have perished at the hands of god than satan.. So how was ge so bad.. Im not a christian i once was.. But it just has to many holes.. Im not bashing christians here just asking questions to understand things
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16264881


Djinn are made of fire and man is made of clay. This is why Satan , a djinn, refused to prostrate to Adam, arrogance
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:18 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Jesus says in His prayer that God's will is done in Heaven. This would imply to me that nothing outside God's will is done in Heaven, and that therefore the angels do not have free will.
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:21 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Jesus says in His prayer that God's will is done in Heaven. This would imply to me that nothing outside God's will is done in Heaven, and that therefore the angels do not have free will.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33255982


Satan told God to strike Job.

And God said, go ahead.
pi

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01/29/2013 04:22 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
The bible says angel where created without free will... Also the in the bible more people have perished at the hands of god than satan.. So how was ge so bad.. Im not a christian i once was.. But it just has to many holes.. Im not bashing christians here just asking questions to understand things
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16264881


Djinn are made of fire and man is made of clay. This is why Satan , a djinn, refused to prostrate to Adam, arrogance
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27037689


LOL

(Lucifer Our Lord)

devil6
Sargeant Major Trouble 32

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01/29/2013 04:40 AM

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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Lucifer is a cherubim. He was in charge of a third of the angels.
"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth."
George Washington

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington

“No man survives when freedom fails, The best men rot in filthy jails, And those who cry ‘appease, appease’ Are hanged by those they tried to please.” Hiram Mann
Anonymous Coward
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01/29/2013 04:42 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Then why was he able to disobey god if he didnt have free will?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16264881



Yes he did, but he new better than you or I what he was doing he knew about eternal life. He knew about heavenly thing but did what he did knowing it was wrong.

He did not obey Gods laws for the Angels, just remember he wasn't the only one that did it.

We on the other hand don't know all that the Angels knew and the Angels wanted to taint Gods creation, look where it got both man and the Angels. Good thing some of the Angels did not follow the bad ones.
Janus198

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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Then why was he able to disobey god if he didnt have free will?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16264881


He did have free will as far as is possible when in
pre mortality.

He is where he is (cast out from the possibility of
mortality) because he rebelled against God the Father,
and against Christ his brother, and led 1/3 of the
host of pre mortals at that point, against them also
in a war to wrest
control of all creation from God.

This war was not of bloodshed as there is no blood
in pre mortal existence, but a war of who would keep
control in order to grant agency for progression
and who would be
banished from the opportunity to progress from
pre mortality, for planning to keep everyone from
agency while in mortality.

Do not confuse those who are pre mortal
with those who have already been born, died and are
resurrected, a few of whom also rebelled against
order in creation, came to earth and took mortal
wives against the will of God.

Do not be confused by the notion that we on this
planet are alone in the cosmos, for God has stated
through prophets that he has worlds without number
which are numbered to him, in his advanced state
which state is beyond our ability to withstand as
mortals, though he has said we are created in his
image.

It is easier for me to understand if I think of a
person without blood, veins and arteries instead filled with light from beyond our visibility. . .whiter
than white and brighter than the sun.
Janus198
GUANO
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01/29/2013 05:07 AM
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Re: if satan was once an angel...
Satan is a mysterious spirit, IE:

the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something
 Quoting: Merriam-Webster


Satan, according to the logic contained in the metaphors of the Bible, as well as the top occult writers, is a primordial force within the psyche, psychological construct, astral realm, spirit world, or whatever you feel like calling it. It is a mysterious element which is either the "ego" or another closely related 'principal' used to explain 'what' makes us individuals. Satan is closely related to the current collective idea of individual 'Liberty'—a goddess from ancient times which often seems to be depicted with 'transvestite' qualities. It is also called the 'light-bringer' or, in other words: awareness messenger. Thus, it is one of the 'forces' behind individual creative thought. It has many [biblical] titles:

Satan
Devil
Lucifer
Azazel
Prince of the Powers of the Air
Apollyon

There are many other 'entites' that are identified as 'the devil', such as the force of 'destruction', but many seem to be below 'it' in terms of cosmology. It is a natural, primal principal within human and animal psyches. It seems to be the 'prince' of 1/3 of the consciousness, or, the "Powers of the Air"... Or 'mood'...

Air: a surrounding or pervading influence : atmosphere
 Quoting: Merriam-Webster


... It's realm seems to be the 'desires of the flesh', 1/3 of our consciousness. And since the idea of 'on earth as it is in heaven' or 'as above, so below', can be taken into account, it is also a literal force that is 'in control' of 1/3 of the physical realm. It would be the principal responsible for 'entropy', but since I'm not a pro I couldn't even begin to get into that.

Satan is just such a deep idea that one little post can do no justice.

If you only understood the myth behind the fallen angels, watchers, nephilim, etc... It's all very real and in your face every day, there is no hollywood magic here. Everyone is so acclimated to the current paradigm, or zeitgeist, or spirit to the age, that they have no idea what's really going on in the grander scheme...

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