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Poll for Libertarians

 
UnmannedAerialPilot

User ID: 33334453
01/30/2013 08:09 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
A GOD fearing libertarian can not support gay marriage.
A GOD fearing anything can not support gay marriage.
or anything else gay for that matter.
IT IS AN ABOMINATION.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33328238


So you can't be a libertarian.

It's that simple.

You are either for freedom of choice (and values) or you are for forcing your values on others.

If you are the latter then you are an idiot if you call yourself a "libertarian" because you fundamentally don't comprehend what the term means.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462


That is not true at all. Libertarianism doesn't stand for such absolute polarity. Interpretation comes in to play. For instance, I am strongly opposed to abortion because the Constitution grants the right of LIFE to all citizens. Many people believe life does not begin until someone is born. I believe life begins at conception and abortion is murder. See the dilemma of living by such dogmas? The answer in this case then, is to let the States decide, as per Amendment 10 of the Bill of Rights.
To me, Libertarianism means to let people live with freedom and pursue happiness as they see fit, so long as it doesn't infringe upon others' right to pursue happiness.
Manu-Koelbren

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01/30/2013 08:09 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
So to answer your question in a long-winded and rambling sort of way, yes everyone should have the right to marriage in this country, because it is a religious institution, not a governmental one. If marriage has been relegated to a state-issue, then let the States vote and decide for themselves, that way if you disagree with the majority of people in your State, you have the ability to move to where your views are the majority.

I agree with this, just leave your god out of the equation, you may believe in it but for some people it's as real as Santa. God only has a place in a theocracy, and that has nothing to do with liberty.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
UnmannedAerialPilot

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01/30/2013 08:11 PM

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...


Nowhere on this poll is the true Libertarian answer:

Marriage is a private religious ceremony and institution, therefore the state has no authority to dictate anything to do with marriage, as set forth in the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


Ding ding ding.

You are correct sir.

But that means that consenting adults of all kinds have the RIGHT to marry.

This poll implies nothing about legal obligations or benefits.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


It is God that gives people the right to marriage, not governments. The God of the Bible sets forth marriage as one man and one woman becoming one flesh. The same God condemns homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, etc. When you argue that you have rights granted from God, that necessitates that you play by God's rules in order to obtain those rights.

A marriage between two men, a man and an animal, an adult and a child, etc., are not marriages at all, they are abomination, and are therefore null and void in God's eyes. Actually anything outside of God's law is abomination, and that includes drunkenness, fornication, lust, feminism, etc., which are all legal in our country.

As a free society however, we are bound by the Constitution to allow all men everywhere the freedom to choose their own lifestyles (render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's). Therefore, as we all must give an account for our lives before God, both in this life and at the judgment, it is not within our authority to limit another persons pursuit of happiness, so long as they do not bring harm to ourselves or our families, or infringe upon others' rights.

In this nation we do not live under the Levitical Law, nor would I want to. I know I would not have lived past age 16. With that being said though, there is a moral absolute and it is Thus Saith the LORD. God condemns homosexuality, as does nature, and therefore I am personally and morally opposed to the practice of homosexuality as a whole, not just the marriage part of it. But, just because I or anyone else disagrees with something, doesn't mean it should be made illegal.

The Constitution, which I have sworn before God to uphold, grants all other American citizen the same rights as I have, and therefore I say leave this issue up to the States. The 10th Amendment makes it clear; the federal government has no place in dictating marriage, drug laws, alcohol laws, etc. Abortion is different, I would say, because the first right we all have is the right to LIFE, but that is a completely different topic.

So to answer your question in a long-winded and rambling sort of way, yes everyone should have the right to marriage in this country, because it is a religious institution, not a governmental one. If marriage has been relegated to a state-issue, then let the States vote and decide for themselves, that way if you disagree with the majority of people in your State, you have the ability to move to where your views are the majority.
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


Someone didn't read the thread.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final

Sorry, I thought it was up for discussion. Didn't realize it was pick an answer and you are stuck with it. Good thread jerkit
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
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01/30/2013 08:11 PM
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OP ..

as a 'simultaneous final' you would not be asking/starting threads like this.

if you think your a final incarnation as per 'the author/M5' you are greatly greatly foolish
 Quoting: Matrix-V


If you feel that you have the authority to make judgements of my experience here in this world, then you fundamentally misunderstand the Matrix material. ZAP!
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


then I guess it looks like we both get 'zapped' then. because you are correct about what I said but at the same time, I am probably 99.8% correct still
 Quoting: Matrix-V


Damn. I hate getting zapped. But fuck it.
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Anonymous Coward
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01/30/2013 08:12 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I wonder how many people on this thread have actually ever voted for a Libertarian candidate.

Speaking for myself, I only had the opportunity to vote for a candidate of the Libertarian party of Canada once, and I voted for him. I have however voted Marijuana party once and Reform a couple of times when they represented the most Libertarian platform in my riding. (I have also voted Liberal but I will never do that again, Conservative, and New Democrat because I vote strategically according to my Parliamentary costituency).
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 33302996
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01/30/2013 08:14 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
It's worded wrongly. The government should have no say in who may marry and who may not as marriage should not be a governmental institution.

It should be up to each individual religion to decide and atheists may simply throw a party for themselves and say they're married.
UnmannedAerialPilot

User ID: 33334453
01/30/2013 08:16 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
So to answer your question in a long-winded and rambling sort of way, yes everyone should have the right to marriage in this country, because it is a religious institution, not a governmental one. If marriage has been relegated to a state-issue, then let the States vote and decide for themselves, that way if you disagree with the majority of people in your State, you have the ability to move to where your views are the majority.

I agree with this, just leave your god out of the equation, you may believe in it but for some people it's as real as Santa. God only has a place in a theocracy, and that has nothing to do with liberty.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


According to the founders, the only reason you have rights is because God granted them to you and they cannot be taken away by a man-made institution, such as government. The Constitution intrinsically requires a belief in God. God gives us rights, governments try to take them away. The Constitution was instilled to protect the rights that God gave us from the genocidal maniacs at the top of the food chain. You have a right not to believe in God, I will give you that, but then where do your rights originate? From government? Society? You don't have to like it, but it is fact; All men are CREATED equal and endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights...
simultaneous_final (OP)

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01/30/2013 08:16 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
...


Ding ding ding.

You are correct sir.

But that means that consenting adults of all kinds have the RIGHT to marry.

This poll implies nothing about legal obligations or benefits.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


It is God that gives people the right to marriage, not governments. The God of the Bible sets forth marriage as one man and one woman becoming one flesh. The same God condemns homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, etc. When you argue that you have rights granted from God, that necessitates that you play by God's rules in order to obtain those rights.

A marriage between two men, a man and an animal, an adult and a child, etc., are not marriages at all, they are abomination, and are therefore null and void in God's eyes. Actually anything outside of God's law is abomination, and that includes drunkenness, fornication, lust, feminism, etc., which are all legal in our country.

As a free society however, we are bound by the Constitution to allow all men everywhere the freedom to choose their own lifestyles (render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's). Therefore, as we all must give an account for our lives before God, both in this life and at the judgment, it is not within our authority to limit another persons pursuit of happiness, so long as they do not bring harm to ourselves or our families, or infringe upon others' rights.

In this nation we do not live under the Levitical Law, nor would I want to. I know I would not have lived past age 16. With that being said though, there is a moral absolute and it is Thus Saith the LORD. God condemns homosexuality, as does nature, and therefore I am personally and morally opposed to the practice of homosexuality as a whole, not just the marriage part of it. But, just because I or anyone else disagrees with something, doesn't mean it should be made illegal.

The Constitution, which I have sworn before God to uphold, grants all other American citizen the same rights as I have, and therefore I say leave this issue up to the States. The 10th Amendment makes it clear; the federal government has no place in dictating marriage, drug laws, alcohol laws, etc. Abortion is different, I would say, because the first right we all have is the right to LIFE, but that is a completely different topic.

So to answer your question in a long-winded and rambling sort of way, yes everyone should have the right to marriage in this country, because it is a religious institution, not a governmental one. If marriage has been relegated to a state-issue, then let the States vote and decide for themselves, that way if you disagree with the majority of people in your State, you have the ability to move to where your views are the majority.
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


Someone didn't read the thread.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final

Sorry, I thought it was up for discussion. Didn't realize it was pick an answer and you are stuck with it. Good thread jerkit
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


Liberty is a secular principle. Liberty is not tied to a religious worldview. Liberty is diametrically opposed to universally-applied rules, laws and commandments which can not be rationally defended.

There are only two rules which are the "lowest common denominators" and can be rationally defended:

1. Do not breach the consent of another.

(the basis of criminal law)

2. Honor contracts made with a sound mind.

(the basis of civil law)
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
UnmannedAerialPilot

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01/30/2013 08:16 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
It's worded wrongly. The government should have no say in who may marry and who may not as marriage should not be a governmental institution.

It should be up to each individual religion to decide and atheists may simply throw a party for themselves and say they're married.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302996


My point exactly...
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 08:17 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
It's worded wrongly. The government should have no say in who may marry and who may not as marriage should not be a governmental institution.

It should be up to each individual religion to decide and atheists may simply throw a party for themselves and say they're married.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302996


I have a married gay co worker and he told me that what they want are the same inheritance rights and other legal rights regarding civil marriage than heteros have. It's always about money ,but the issue is that, if atheistic heteros can get it then in a truly free society, gays should get the same rights because there's no logical argument to deny them that.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
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01/30/2013 08:19 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
So to answer your question in a long-winded and rambling sort of way, yes everyone should have the right to marriage in this country, because it is a religious institution, not a governmental one. If marriage has been relegated to a state-issue, then let the States vote and decide for themselves, that way if you disagree with the majority of people in your State, you have the ability to move to where your views are the majority.

I agree with this, just leave your god out of the equation, you may believe in it but for some people it's as real as Santa. God only has a place in a theocracy, and that has nothing to do with liberty.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


According to the founders, the only reason you have rights is because God granted them to you and they cannot be taken away by a man-made institution, such as government. The Constitution intrinsically requires a belief in God. God gives us rights, governments try to take them away. The Constitution was instilled to protect the rights that God gave us from the genocidal maniacs at the top of the food chain. You have a right not to believe in God, I will give you that, but then where do your rights originate? From government? Society? You don't have to like it, but it is fact; All men are CREATED equal and endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


"Creator" CAN imply "god" (of your choice) but does not necessarily imply it. "Creator" can be any number of things from a "mechanism" to a "deity" to one's self at the moment of self-awareness.
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 08:20 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
So to answer your question in a long-winded and rambling sort of way, yes everyone should have the right to marriage in this country, because it is a religious institution, not a governmental one. If marriage has been relegated to a state-issue, then let the States vote and decide for themselves, that way if you disagree with the majority of people in your State, you have the ability to move to where your views are the majority.

I agree with this, just leave your god out of the equation, you may believe in it but for some people it's as real as Santa. God only has a place in a theocracy, and that has nothing to do with liberty.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


According to the founders, the only reason you have rights is because God granted them to you and they cannot be taken away by a man-made institution, such as government. The Constitution intrinsically requires a belief in God. God gives us rights, governments try to take them away. The Constitution was instilled to protect the rights that God gave us from the genocidal maniacs at the top of the food chain. You have a right not to believe in God, I will give you that, but then where do your rights originate? From government? Society? You don't have to like it, but it is fact; All men are CREATED equal and endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


Rights originate in the mutual consent of people to abide by a determinate set of rules, not in some imaginary deity. If people do not agree to abide by any determinate set of rules, then might makes right, as in the old law of the jungle.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
simultaneous_final (OP)

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01/30/2013 08:20 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
It's worded wrongly. The government should have no say in who may marry and who may not as marriage should not be a governmental institution.

It should be up to each individual religion to decide and atheists may simply throw a party for themselves and say they're married.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302996


My point exactly...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


That's my point too. I think we agree but just don't realize it.
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
UnmannedAerialPilot

User ID: 33334453
01/30/2013 08:28 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
It's worded wrongly. The government should have no say in who may marry and who may not as marriage should not be a governmental institution.

It should be up to each individual religion to decide and atheists may simply throw a party for themselves and say they're married.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302996


I have a married gay co worker and he told me that what they want are the same inheritance rights and other legal rights regarding civil marriage than heteros have. It's always about money ,but the issue is that, if atheistic heteros can get it then in a truly free society, gays should get the same rights because there's no logical argument to deny them that.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


We home school our children, yet I pay taxes directly to the county school board where I live each year. I pay a tax for buses, for school sports programs, teacher's salaries, etc. and don't utilize any of it. We don't get any kind of tax vouchers or breaks for spending the $1,000+ a year on curriculum, museum visits, driving back and forth from Spanish tutors, etc. The system sucks, but instead of trying to get a special tax break, I rally around ending public education, because it is Marxist and unconstitutional. Our government is broken, only reinstating the RULE OF LAW will fix it. That is a very big umbrella, and likely will never happen. Returning to Gold-backed currency, abolishing the FED, abolishing the IRS, ending Obamacare, ending the Drug War, the Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. conflicts, bringing the troops home from foreign lands, leaving the United Nations, etc. are all goals, but the more likely scenario is the US dollar is pulled as the world currency, expanding debt, expanding wars, nullification of more rights, police state, tax increases, etc. We are in real trouble here...
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 08:30 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
It's worded wrongly. The government should have no say in who may marry and who may not as marriage should not be a governmental institution.

It should be up to each individual religion to decide and atheists may simply throw a party for themselves and say they're married.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302996


I have a married gay co worker and he told me that what they want are the same inheritance rights and other legal rights regarding civil marriage than heteros have. It's always about money ,but the issue is that, if atheistic heteros can get it then in a truly free society, gays should get the same rights because there's no logical argument to deny them that.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


We home school our children, yet I pay taxes directly to the county school board where I live each year. I pay a tax for buses, for school sports programs, teacher's salaries, etc. and don't utilize any of it. We don't get any kind of tax vouchers or breaks for spending the $1,000+ a year on curriculum, museum visits, driving back and forth from Spanish tutors, etc. The system sucks, but instead of trying to get a special tax break, I rally around ending public education, because it is Marxist and unconstitutional. Our government is broken, only reinstating the RULE OF LAW will fix it. That is a very big umbrella, and likely will never happen. Returning to Gold-backed currency, abolishing the FED, abolishing the IRS, ending Obamacare, ending the Drug War, the Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. conflicts, bringing the troops home from foreign lands, leaving the United Nations, etc. are all goals, but the more likely scenario is the US dollar is pulled as the world currency, expanding debt, expanding wars, nullification of more rights, police state, tax increases, etc. We are in real trouble here...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


I disagree with any forced wealth distribution whatsoever. But I would like a rebuttal by you of my previous post.

Last Edited by Manu-K on 01/30/2013 08:30 PM
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
UnmannedAerialPilot

User ID: 33334453
01/30/2013 08:31 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
So to answer your question in a long-winded and rambling sort of way, yes everyone should have the right to marriage in this country, because it is a religious institution, not a governmental one. If marriage has been relegated to a state-issue, then let the States vote and decide for themselves, that way if you disagree with the majority of people in your State, you have the ability to move to where your views are the majority.

I agree with this, just leave your god out of the equation, you may believe in it but for some people it's as real as Santa. God only has a place in a theocracy, and that has nothing to do with liberty.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


According to the founders, the only reason you have rights is because God granted them to you and they cannot be taken away by a man-made institution, such as government. The Constitution intrinsically requires a belief in God. God gives us rights, governments try to take them away. The Constitution was instilled to protect the rights that God gave us from the genocidal maniacs at the top of the food chain. You have a right not to believe in God, I will give you that, but then where do your rights originate? From government? Society? You don't have to like it, but it is fact; All men are CREATED equal and endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


"Creator" CAN imply "god" (of your choice) but does not necessarily imply it. "Creator" can be any number of things from a "mechanism" to a "deity" to one's self at the moment of self-awareness.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final

How can a mechanism endow men with rights? It just doesn't make any sense. Like I said, you don't have to like it, but the Constitution was CLEARLY written by men who believed God gave us rights that government is not legally able to take away.
UnmannedAerialPilot

User ID: 33334453
01/30/2013 08:33 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
It's worded wrongly. The government should have no say in who may marry and who may not as marriage should not be a governmental institution.

It should be up to each individual religion to decide and atheists may simply throw a party for themselves and say they're married.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302996


I have a married gay co worker and he told me that what they want are the same inheritance rights and other legal rights regarding civil marriage than heteros have. It's always about money ,but the issue is that, if atheistic heteros can get it then in a truly free society, gays should get the same rights because there's no logical argument to deny them that.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


We home school our children, yet I pay taxes directly to the county school board where I live each year. I pay a tax for buses, for school sports programs, teacher's salaries, etc. and don't utilize any of it. We don't get any kind of tax vouchers or breaks for spending the $1,000+ a year on curriculum, museum visits, driving back and forth from Spanish tutors, etc. The system sucks, but instead of trying to get a special tax break, I rally around ending public education, because it is Marxist and unconstitutional. Our government is broken, only reinstating the RULE OF LAW will fix it. That is a very big umbrella, and likely will never happen. Returning to Gold-backed currency, abolishing the FED, abolishing the IRS, ending Obamacare, ending the Drug War, the Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. conflicts, bringing the troops home from foreign lands, leaving the United Nations, etc. are all goals, but the more likely scenario is the US dollar is pulled as the world currency, expanding debt, expanding wars, nullification of more rights, police state, tax increases, etc. We are in real trouble here...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


I disagree with any forced wealth distribution whatsoever. But I would like a rebuttal by you of my previous post.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Which? I say leave it up to the individual States, if it is not an authority expressly granted to the federal government by the Law of the land. Amendment 10 to the Constitution.
simultaneous_final (OP)

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01/30/2013 08:34 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
It's worded wrongly. The government should have no say in who may marry and who may not as marriage should not be a governmental institution.

It should be up to each individual religion to decide and atheists may simply throw a party for themselves and say they're married.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302996


I have a married gay co worker and he told me that what they want are the same inheritance rights and other legal rights regarding civil marriage than heteros have. It's always about money ,but the issue is that, if atheistic heteros can get it then in a truly free society, gays should get the same rights because there's no logical argument to deny them that.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


We home school our children, yet I pay taxes directly to the county school board where I live each year. I pay a tax for buses, for school sports programs, teacher's salaries, etc. and don't utilize any of it. We don't get any kind of tax vouchers or breaks for spending the $1,000+ a year on curriculum, museum visits, driving back and forth from Spanish tutors, etc. The system sucks, but instead of trying to get a special tax break, I rally around ending public education, because it is Marxist and unconstitutional. Our government is broken, only reinstating the RULE OF LAW will fix it. That is a very big umbrella, and likely will never happen. Returning to Gold-backed currency, abolishing the FED, abolishing the IRS, ending Obamacare, ending the Drug War, the Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. conflicts, bringing the troops home from foreign lands, leaving the United Nations, etc. are all goals, but the more likely scenario is the US dollar is pulled as the world currency, expanding debt, expanding wars, nullification of more rights, police state, tax increases, etc. We are in real trouble here...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


The "rule of law" can be stated thusly:

1. Do not breach the consent of another.
(the basis of criminal law)

2. Honor contracts made with sound mind.
(the basis of civil law)
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
Resister

User ID: 1461638
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01/30/2013 08:34 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
Poll fail. An appeal to the extreme is a logical fallacy.

Homosexuality has been a deep seated taboo for the overwhelmingly huge majority of people and societies for millenia. Polygamy has been socially unacceptable for most people for a very long time as well although there have been periods where the very wealthy or powerful had harems.

Being a principled libertarian does not mean you have to reject centuries to millenia of near universally accepted concepts of right and wrong. In an American context, it just means you don't want a distant and detached federal government enforcing those decisions on your state and local community.
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
Manu-Koelbren

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Spain
01/30/2013 08:36 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
So to answer your question in a long-winded and rambling sort of way, yes everyone should have the right to marriage in this country, because it is a religious institution, not a governmental one. If marriage has been relegated to a state-issue, then let the States vote and decide for themselves, that way if you disagree with the majority of people in your State, you have the ability to move to where your views are the majority.

I agree with this, just leave your god out of the equation, you may believe in it but for some people it's as real as Santa. God only has a place in a theocracy, and that has nothing to do with liberty.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


According to the founders, the only reason you have rights is because God granted them to you and they cannot be taken away by a man-made institution, such as government. The Constitution intrinsically requires a belief in God. God gives us rights, governments try to take them away. The Constitution was instilled to protect the rights that God gave us from the genocidal maniacs at the top of the food chain. You have a right not to believe in God, I will give you that, but then where do your rights originate? From government? Society? You don't have to like it, but it is fact; All men are CREATED equal and endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


"Creator" CAN imply "god" (of your choice) but does not necessarily imply it. "Creator" can be any number of things from a "mechanism" to a "deity" to one's self at the moment of self-awareness.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final

How can a mechanism endow men with rights? It just doesn't make any sense. Like I said, you don't have to like it, but the Constitution was CLEARLY written by men who believed God gave us rights that government is not legally able to take away.
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


It doesn't matter if the men "believed" in god or not, they created the constitution themselves regardless of god, it was a human creation. If god endowed men with rights then everyone would enjoy those rights the same because they would come from an all powerful god, yet we know for a fact that rights as such only exist in societies where PEOPLE agree to upholding such concept, and we know such concept comes from men as we have no evidence god has ever written any book. And by evidence I mean just that,evidence, faith doesn't apply in that regard.,
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
UnmannedAerialPilot

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01/30/2013 08:37 PM

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It's worded wrongly. The government should have no say in who may marry and who may not as marriage should not be a governmental institution.

It should be up to each individual religion to decide and atheists may simply throw a party for themselves and say they're married.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302996


I have a married gay co worker and he told me that what they want are the same inheritance rights and other legal rights regarding civil marriage than heteros have. It's always about money ,but the issue is that, if atheistic heteros can get it then in a truly free society, gays should get the same rights because there's no logical argument to deny them that.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


We home school our children, yet I pay taxes directly to the county school board where I live each year. I pay a tax for buses, for school sports programs, teacher's salaries, etc. and don't utilize any of it. We don't get any kind of tax vouchers or breaks for spending the $1,000+ a year on curriculum, museum visits, driving back and forth from Spanish tutors, etc. The system sucks, but instead of trying to get a special tax break, I rally around ending public education, because it is Marxist and unconstitutional. Our government is broken, only reinstating the RULE OF LAW will fix it. That is a very big umbrella, and likely will never happen. Returning to Gold-backed currency, abolishing the FED, abolishing the IRS, ending Obamacare, ending the Drug War, the Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. conflicts, bringing the troops home from foreign lands, leaving the United Nations, etc. are all goals, but the more likely scenario is the US dollar is pulled as the world currency, expanding debt, expanding wars, nullification of more rights, police state, tax increases, etc. We are in real trouble here...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


The "rule of law" can be stated thusly:

1. Do not breach the consent of another.
(the basis of criminal law)

2. Honor contracts made with sound mind.
(the basis of civil law)
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


The Constitution, and every last properly ratified Amendment is the law of the land. The basis for criminal and civil law fall under that umbrella. If it fails the Constitutional parameters, it is not a law at all.
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
United States
01/30/2013 08:40 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
So to answer your question in a long-winded and rambling sort of way, yes everyone should have the right to marriage in this country, because it is a religious institution, not a governmental one. If marriage has been relegated to a state-issue, then let the States vote and decide for themselves, that way if you disagree with the majority of people in your State, you have the ability to move to where your views are the majority.

I agree with this, just leave your god out of the equation, you may believe in it but for some people it's as real as Santa. God only has a place in a theocracy, and that has nothing to do with liberty.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


According to the founders, the only reason you have rights is because God granted them to you and they cannot be taken away by a man-made institution, such as government. The Constitution intrinsically requires a belief in God. God gives us rights, governments try to take them away. The Constitution was instilled to protect the rights that God gave us from the genocidal maniacs at the top of the food chain. You have a right not to believe in God, I will give you that, but then where do your rights originate? From government? Society? You don't have to like it, but it is fact; All men are CREATED equal and endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


"Creator" CAN imply "god" (of your choice) but does not necessarily imply it. "Creator" can be any number of things from a "mechanism" to a "deity" to one's self at the moment of self-awareness.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final

How can a mechanism endow men with rights? It just doesn't make any sense. Like I said, you don't have to like it, but the Constitution was CLEARLY written by men who believed God gave us rights that government is not legally able to take away.
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


The contributors to the Constitution came from diverse religious and philosophical backgrounds.

"Creator" is an open-ended term. If you can find an excerpt from the Constitution that suggests otherwise, then I'd like to see it.

It is a term limited only by the reader's imagination.
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
s. d. butler

User ID: 974819
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01/30/2013 08:41 PM
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For the people ASSUMING that I am gay or a polygamist, you're wrong on both counts.

Is it SO HARD TO BELIEVE that a I could support the rights of people who are different than me?!

THAT IS THE FOUNDATION OF LIBERTARIANISM.

Liberty for all. Freedom for all. Personal responsibility for all.

Anything less is ideological BULLSHIT.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final



Consenting adults can do whatever they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. I may not like the behavior but it isn't any of my business either.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
01/30/2013 08:44 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
Who really cares?
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 08:45 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
For the people ASSUMING that I am gay or a polygamist, you're wrong on both counts.

Is it SO HARD TO BELIEVE that a I could support the rights of people who are different than me?!

THAT IS THE FOUNDATION OF LIBERTARIANISM.

Liberty for all. Freedom for all. Personal responsibility for all.

Anything less is ideological BULLSHIT.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final



Consenting adults can do whatever they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. I may not like the behavior but it isn't any of my business either.
 Quoting: s. d. butler


You never disappoint ;)
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
UnmannedAerialPilot

User ID: 33334453
01/30/2013 08:48 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
...


According to the founders, the only reason you have rights is because God granted them to you and they cannot be taken away by a man-made institution, such as government. The Constitution intrinsically requires a belief in God. God gives us rights, governments try to take them away. The Constitution was instilled to protect the rights that God gave us from the genocidal maniacs at the top of the food chain. You have a right not to believe in God, I will give you that, but then where do your rights originate? From government? Society? You don't have to like it, but it is fact; All men are CREATED equal and endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights...
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


"Creator" CAN imply "god" (of your choice) but does not necessarily imply it. "Creator" can be any number of things from a "mechanism" to a "deity" to one's self at the moment of self-awareness.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final

How can a mechanism endow men with rights? It just doesn't make any sense. Like I said, you don't have to like it, but the Constitution was CLEARLY written by men who believed God gave us rights that government is not legally able to take away.
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


It doesn't matter if the men "believed" in god or not, they created the constitution themselves regardless of god, it was a human creation. If god endowed men with rights then everyone would enjoy those rights the same because they would come from an all powerful god, yet we know for a fact that rights as such only exist in societies where PEOPLE agree to upholding such concept, and we know such concept comes from men as we have no evidence god has ever written any book. And by evidence I mean just that,evidence, faith doesn't apply in that regard.,
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


It goes like this:
God created men.
Men created governments.
Governments create laws.
Laws protect people, but can also be used to enslave people.


The Constitution was created by men to form our government. The Bill of Rights, which is part of it, limits the power the government has in creating laws, so that the laws don't go to far and lead to enslavement.

I can point to the millions if not billions of people whose lives were changed once they started reading the Bible, myself included (was raised an atheist), as evidence. I can point to the historical accuracy, scientific facts, the moral relevance, and the axiom that man would not want to write the Bible if he could, and could not write the Bible if he wanted to, as evidence. But all of that falls short of the evidence contained in the prophecies. If a single prophecy was inaccurate I would scrap the whole thing, but I have done the research, the Bible has a 100% accuracy rate throughout history. Nostradamus, Cayce, and Ms. Cleo combined couldn't bat .500, to never miss a single one is nothing short of miraculous. I won't hijack the thread here, but it isn't the lack of evidence that prevents you from seeing God, it is that you have been blinded by sin.
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 08:49 PM
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The idea of natural rights or god given rights are merely fallacies. The only real right that exists in this world is the right of the strongest to rule over the weakest. The only alternative to this brutal type of existence is when people attain a civilized enough level of existence to agree upon abiding by a determinate set of rules which makes life fairer and more acceptable for everyone. That's the beginning of what we know as rights and they are a HUMAN creation and depend upon collective agreement to even exist.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
UnmannedAerialPilot

User ID: 33334453
01/30/2013 08:53 PM

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The idea of natural rights or god given rights are merely fallacies. The only real right that exists in this world is the right of the strongest to rule over the weakest. The only alternative to this brutal type of existence is when people attain a civilized enough level of existence to agree upon abiding by a determinate set of rules which makes life fairer and more acceptable for everyone. That's the beginning of what we know as rights and they are a HUMAN creation and depend upon collective agreement to even exist.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


You can believe that, it is your right. The founders, however, held that we were endowed by our CREATOR with rights, not endowed by society, government, individuals, etc. Your ideals sound more Machiavellian than Jeffersonian.
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 08:55 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
"It goes like this:
God created men.
Men created governments.
Governments create laws.
Laws protect people, but can also be used to enslave people."

Except for the first line everything else is accurate.. Belief in the Bible is faith based, it cannot be substantiated. Premises based on faith are fallacious because anyone can provide any unsubstantiated premise based on faith and claim there's no way to disprove it. I can say I have faith that Justin Bieber is god and that he commands that all people who believe in the Bible be burned at the stakes and that statement would have as much validity as the points you just made.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
United States
01/30/2013 08:57 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
...


"Creator" CAN imply "god" (of your choice) but does not necessarily imply it. "Creator" can be any number of things from a "mechanism" to a "deity" to one's self at the moment of self-awareness.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final

How can a mechanism endow men with rights? It just doesn't make any sense. Like I said, you don't have to like it, but the Constitution was CLEARLY written by men who believed God gave us rights that government is not legally able to take away.
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


It doesn't matter if the men "believed" in god or not, they created the constitution themselves regardless of god, it was a human creation. If god endowed men with rights then everyone would enjoy those rights the same because they would come from an all powerful god, yet we know for a fact that rights as such only exist in societies where PEOPLE agree to upholding such concept, and we know such concept comes from men as we have no evidence god has ever written any book. And by evidence I mean just that,evidence, faith doesn't apply in that regard.,
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


It goes like this:
God created men.
Men created governments.
Governments create laws.
Laws protect people, but can also be used to enslave people.


The Constitution was created by men to form our government. The Bill of Rights, which is part of it, limits the power the government has in creating laws, so that the laws don't go to far and lead to enslavement.

I can point to the millions if not billions of people whose lives were changed once they started reading the Bible, myself included (was raised an atheist), as evidence. I can point to the historical accuracy, scientific facts, the moral relevance, and the axiom that man would not want to write the Bible if he could, and could not write the Bible if he wanted to, as evidence. But all of that falls short of the evidence contained in the prophecies. If a single prophecy was inaccurate I would scrap the whole thing, but I have done the research, the Bible has a 100% accuracy rate throughout history. Nostradamus, Cayce, and Ms. Cleo combined couldn't bat .500, to never miss a single one is nothing short of miraculous. I won't hijack the thread here, but it isn't the lack of evidence that prevents you from seeing God, it is that you have been blinded by sin.
 Quoting: UnmannedAerialPilot


While I agree with your assertions about Nostradamus, Cayce and Ms. Cleo (call me now fah ya free readin'), I can't take your claims about the Bible seriously because many of the "prophesies" contained therein are ambiguous and subject to individual interpretation.

But I certainly respect your beliefs! I can't disprove your assertions about Biblical prophesy any more than you can prove them and I won't try.

Last Edited by simultaneous_final on 01/30/2013 08:58 PM
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.

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