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Poll for Libertarians

 
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 10:05 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I agree. Believe me, I have long searched for logical consistency in this matter.

It's possible that we can settle this once and for all. Let's try to break it down:

1. Ability to imply or express consent is not inherent to all conscious beings at all times.

example: trees, non-humans, infants, the mentally unsound

LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION:

What do the above examples have in common that make them unable to render consent?
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


They don't possess a self or a fully developed self? A child doesn't have a fully developed self, it's on process of becoming.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Anonymous Coward
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01/30/2013 10:06 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I am a God fearing libertarian in that I personally believe that marriage is between1 man and 1 woman but I also believe people may worship and practice their religious beliefs how they choose and I will defend their right to do so as if it were my belief. I will not judge your lifestyle, thats not why I'm here. I will defend anyone against the use force, thats what makes me a libertarian.
OICU812

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01/30/2013 10:08 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
What you do as an adult that does not infringe on any right of another nor cause harm to another nor harm society as a whole is none of my fucking business.

What I do as an adult that does not infringe on any right of another nor cause harm to another or society as a whole is none of your fucking business.

For all the people who cannot "condone" this or that based on religious grounds: what part of "judge not lest ye be judged" do you not understand????
"Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
Ralph--a house dog

User ID: 25802009
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01/30/2013 10:10 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I agree. Believe me, I have long searched for logical consistency in this matter.

It's possible that we can settle this once and for all. Let's try to break it down:

1. Ability to imply or express consent is not inherent to all conscious beings at all times.

example: trees, non-humans, infants, the mentally unsound

LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION:

What do the above examples have in common that make them unable to render consent?
 Quoting: simultaneous_final



They don't possess the mental capacity or emotional stability--either temporarily due to other factors or permanently-- to be self-directed enough to make decisions in their own best interest.
"Who decides?"
---Robert A. Heinlein

[link to www.westcoasttruth.com]

"Do Not Go Gentle into that Good Night.....Rage, rage against the dying of the light"
----Dylan Thomas
Anonymous Coward
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01/30/2013 10:13 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
As a libertarian, I can see no wrong in ANYTHING that does not:

1. Breach the consent of another adult.

2. Breach a contract made of sound mind.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


OP this poll / thread is totally bogus. There is no inherent "right" to marry. No one has a "right" to marry. Legal marriage requires a license. A license denotes a "priviledge", not a "right".
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 28590539
United States
01/30/2013 10:21 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
A GOD fearing libertarian can not support gay marriage.
A GOD fearing anything can not support gay marriage.
or anything else gay for that matter.
IT IS AN ABOMINATION.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33328238


Sound like an Islamist to me.

A libertarian supports LIBERTY, NOT A SINGLE IDEOLOGY OR RELIGION.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


And boom goes the dynamite. Like your style.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1326366
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01/30/2013 10:21 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
The government should have nothing to do with marriage and any church should have the right to marry whomever that wants to get married.
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
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01/30/2013 10:22 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I agree. Believe me, I have long searched for logical consistency in this matter.

It's possible that we can settle this once and for all. Let's try to break it down:

1. Ability to imply or express consent is not inherent to all conscious beings at all times.

example: trees, non-humans, infants, the mentally unsound

LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION:

What do the above examples have in common that make them unable to render consent?
 Quoting: simultaneous_final



They don't possess the mental capacity or emotional stability--either temporarily due to other factors or permanently-- to be self-directed enough to make decisions in their own best interest.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


Well phrased.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Anonymous Coward
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01/30/2013 10:22 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
The government should have nothing to do with marriage and any church should have the right to marry whomever that wants to get married.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1326366



They already do. What planet are you living on?
chowan

User ID: 33359762
United States
01/30/2013 10:27 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
sheell be right mate
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25128934
United States
01/30/2013 10:30 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
 Quoting: chowan


So would it be OK for a brother to marry a sister or father marry a daughter?
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 10:36 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
 Quoting: chowan


So would it be OK for a brother to marry a sister or father marry a daughter?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25128934


As long as it's a consensual contract between two adults I don't see what kind of argument can be successfully utilized against it.

However if they then have deficient children they'd be on their own as in a libertarian paradigm, no one would be obliged to help them fund their bad decision making.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
chowan

User ID: 33359762
United States
01/30/2013 10:38 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
 Quoting: chowan


So would it be OK for a brother to marry a sister or father marry a daughter?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25128934


Its not ok to FK like that that has been taboo since
we became civalised and no church i know of would marry
under those circumstances so why do we need laws about marriage?

ANSWER because the GOV has provided benefits to married
people take away those benefits and let the churches
do what they want.

personally i think marriage is between a man and a woman
with the idea they are going to raise childern together
but GOV has no business in it
sheell be right mate
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
United States
01/30/2013 10:42 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I agree. Believe me, I have long searched for logical consistency in this matter.

It's possible that we can settle this once and for all. Let's try to break it down:

1. Ability to imply or express consent is not inherent to all conscious beings at all times.

example: trees, non-humans, infants, the mentally unsound

LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION:

What do the above examples have in common that make them unable to render consent?
 Quoting: simultaneous_final



They don't possess the mental capacity or emotional stability--either temporarily due to other factors or permanently-- to be self-directed enough to make decisions in their own best interest.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


Well phrased.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


I disagree. The phrasing is too ambiguous. I would rephrase it as:

They lack due diligence in decision making.

I think I've hit the nail on the head here.

Ability to consent is a matter of due diligence in the strictest sense.
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
United States
01/30/2013 10:45 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
 Quoting: chowan


Rights and government are concepts which are independent of one another. The poll does not ask for your thoughts on the LEGALITY or government endorsement of marriage.
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 10:47 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I agree. Believe me, I have long searched for logical consistency in this matter.

It's possible that we can settle this once and for all. Let's try to break it down:

1. Ability to imply or express consent is not inherent to all conscious beings at all times.

example: trees, non-humans, infants, the mentally unsound

LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION:

What do the above examples have in common that make them unable to render consent?
 Quoting: simultaneous_final



They don't possess the mental capacity or emotional stability--either temporarily due to other factors or permanently-- to be self-directed enough to make decisions in their own best interest.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


Well phrased.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


I disagree. The phrasing is too ambiguous. I would rephrase it as:

They lack due diligence in decision making.

I think I've hit the nail on the head here.

Ability to consent is a matter of due diligence in the strictest sense.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


But we're still plagued with the problem of how to decide at what precise point a human being gains this due diligence to make decisions.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
chowan

User ID: 33359762
United States
01/30/2013 10:47 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
 Quoting: chowan


Rights and government are concepts which are independent of one another. The poll does not ask for your thoughts on the LEGALITY or government endorsement of marriage.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


cant be to independent of one another since we apparently adopted government to protect our rights?
sheell be right mate
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25128934
United States
01/30/2013 10:50 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
 Quoting: chowan


So would it be OK for a brother to marry a sister or father marry a daughter?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25128934


Its not ok to FK like that that has been taboo since
we became civalised and no church i know of would marry
under those circumstances so why do we need laws about marriage?

ANSWER because the GOV has provided benefits to married
people take away those benefits and let the churches
do what they want.

personally i think marriage is between a man and a woman
with the idea they are going to raise childern together
but GOV has no business in it
 Quoting: chowan


But it is a representative government, is it not. Government has created that legal institution (contract) to reflect society's belief that it is societally beneficial. Societies have been recognizing the joining of man and wife in marriage for thousands of years.

Additionally government, through the representative process, has set boundaries to prohibit the privilege of marriage to couplings that serve no societal benefit, such as a brother / sister or father / daughter. Could you imagine the generational inbreeding in isolated rural areas if such laws did not exist and the societal consequences of such inbreeding? Societies do have the ability to set boundaries for themselves in situations of self-governance.
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
United States
01/30/2013 10:50 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
...



They don't possess the mental capacity or emotional stability--either temporarily due to other factors or permanently-- to be self-directed enough to make decisions in their own best interest.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


Well phrased.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


I disagree. The phrasing is too ambiguous. I would rephrase it as:

They lack due diligence in decision making.

I think I've hit the nail on the head here.

Ability to consent is a matter of due diligence in the strictest sense.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


But we're still plagued with the problem of how to decide at what precise point a human being gains this due diligence to make decisions.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Due diligence is not something that is gained but rather PERFORMED on a case-to-case basis.
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
United States
01/30/2013 10:52 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
 Quoting: chowan


Rights and government are concepts which are independent of one another. The poll does not ask for your thoughts on the LEGALITY or government endorsement of marriage.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


cant be to independent of one another since we apparently adopted government to protect our rights?
 Quoting: chowan


You can adopt mustard to enhance your sandwich but sandwiches are fine without it.
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 10:54 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
 Quoting: chowan


So would it be OK for a brother to marry a sister or father marry a daughter?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25128934


Its not ok to FK like that that has been taboo since
we became civalised and no church i know of would marry
under those circumstances so why do we need laws about marriage?

ANSWER because the GOV has provided benefits to married
people take away those benefits and let the churches
do what they want.

personally i think marriage is between a man and a woman
with the idea they are going to raise childern together
but GOV has no business in it
 Quoting: chowan


But it is a representative government, is it not. Government has created that legal institution (contract) to reflect society's belief that it is societally beneficial. Societies have been recognizing the joining of man and wife in marriage for thousands of years.

Additionally government, through the representative process, has set boundaries to prohibit the privilege of marriage to couplings that serve no societal benefit, such as a brother / sister or father / daughter. Could you imagine the generational inbreeding in isolated rural areas if such laws did not exist and the societal consequences of such inbreeding? Societies do have the ability to set boundaries for themselves in situations of self-governance.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25128934



You can't base laws on what serves societal benefit, people are no obliged to exist to serve society, but they don't have a right to expect society to mend their mistakes either.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 10:56 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
...


Well phrased.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


I disagree. The phrasing is too ambiguous. I would rephrase it as:

They lack due diligence in decision making.

I think I've hit the nail on the head here.

Ability to consent is a matter of due diligence in the strictest sense.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


But we're still plagued with the problem of how to decide at what precise point a human being gains this due diligence to make decisions.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Due diligence is not something that is gained but rather PERFORMED on a case-to-case basis.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


That still serves us for nothing in our pedophile agenda example. A pedo will ask, how can you assess unequivocally when a minor is ready or not to have consensual sex? What do you answer him?
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
United States
01/30/2013 10:58 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
...


Well phrased.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


I disagree. The phrasing is too ambiguous. I would rephrase it as:

They lack due diligence in decision making.

I think I've hit the nail on the head here.

Ability to consent is a matter of due diligence in the strictest sense.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


But we're still plagued with the problem of how to decide at what precise point a human being gains this due diligence to make decisions.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Due diligence is not something that is gained but rather PERFORMED on a case-to-case basis.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


But with that said, we're back to the same problem. Due Diligence can lead to "informed consent" but it's still pretty difficult for me to say a twelve year old can give informed consent--even if they provide proof of due diligence.

Seriously, man--this is a tough and interesting problem. But I'm not ready to concede to the pedos yet.

We have to be missing something. I'm determined to figure this out.

Last Edited by simultaneous_final on 01/30/2013 11:06 PM
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
chowan

User ID: 33359762
United States
01/30/2013 11:01 PM

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Re: Poll for Libertarians
I think as a libertarion the correct answer would be that
government has no business in any marriage to begin with


NONE

but you did not have that in your poll
 Quoting: chowan


So would it be OK for a brother to marry a sister or father marry a daughter?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25128934


Its not ok to FK like that that has been taboo since
we became civalised and no church i know of would marry
under those circumstances so why do we need laws about marriage?

ANSWER because the GOV has provided benefits to married
people take away those benefits and let the churches
do what they want.

personally i think marriage is between a man and a woman
with the idea they are going to raise childern together
but GOV has no business in it
 Quoting: chowan


But it is a representative government, is it not. Government has created that legal institution (contract) to reflect society's belief that it is societally beneficial. Societies have been recognizing the joining of man and wife in marriage for thousands of years.

Additionally government, through the representative process, has set boundaries to prohibit the privilege of marriage to couplings that serve no societal benefit, such as a brother / sister or father / daughter. Could you imagine the generational inbreeding in isolated rural areas if such laws did not exist and the societal consequences of such inbreeding? Societies do have the ability to set boundaries for themselves in situations of self-governance.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25128934


At best its a states rights issue let them set these boundries do what they want if they want to it should not be a federal GOV issue.

The fed GOV was instituted to protect our basic rights and freedoms not to provide benefits to what is deemed to be of societal benefit just look back at prohabition and how well that went.It was for societal benefit as well.
sheell be right mate
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 11:02 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
...


I disagree. The phrasing is too ambiguous. I would rephrase it as:

They lack due diligence in decision making.

I think I've hit the nail on the head here.

Ability to consent is a matter of due diligence in the strictest sense.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


But we're still plagued with the problem of how to decide at what precise point a human being gains this due diligence to make decisions.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Due diligence is not something that is gained but rather PERFORMED on a case-to-case basis.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


But with that said, we're back to the same problem. Due Diligence can lead to "informed consent" but it's still pretty difficult for me to say a twelve year old can give informed consent--even if they provide proof of due diligence.

Seriously, man--this is a tough and interesting problem. But I'm not ready to concede to the pesos yet.

We have to be missing something. I'm determined to figure this out.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


Yeah, it's nice to team with someone else to brainstorm about it. Still the definitive moment is when you're faced by one of these smart ass pedos who drive you to the point of becoming mad like a religious minded freak. Those who have made me feel the most impotent regarding my arguments have been pedos arguing for their right of molesting children. I've ended up calling them degenerate pieces of shit and dropped the argument with the consequent feeling of having been a bigot with no valid argument.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
simultaneous_final (OP)

User ID: 33292391
United States
01/30/2013 11:13 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
...


But we're still plagued with the problem of how to decide at what precise point a human being gains this due diligence to make decisions.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Due diligence is not something that is gained but rather PERFORMED on a case-to-case basis.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


But with that said, we're back to the same problem. Due Diligence can lead to "informed consent" but it's still pretty difficult for me to say a twelve year old can give informed consent--even if they provide proof of due diligence.

Seriously, man--this is a tough and interesting problem. But I'm not ready to concede to the pesos yet.

We have to be missing something. I'm determined to figure this out.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


Yeah, it's nice to team with someone else to brainstorm about it. Still the definitive moment is when you're faced by one of these smart ass pedos who drive you to the point of becoming mad like a religious minded freak. Those who have made me feel the most impotent regarding my arguments have been pedos arguing for their right of molesting children. I've ended up calling them degenerate pieces of shit and dropped the argument with the consequent feeling of having been a bigot with no valid argument.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Dude, I have been there! To make arguments based on rhetoric is not an option for intellectually-honest people. It sounds like you strive for that goal as much as I do. We don't want to caught using bias (easily falsifiable) to "support" our arguments.

I'm still not ready to give up on this. Give me some time. I think that I'm missing something very fundamental. I will certainly PM you when I get this sorted (or on the right track, at least).
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
Spain
01/30/2013 11:22 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
...


Due diligence is not something that is gained but rather PERFORMED on a case-to-case basis.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


But with that said, we're back to the same problem. Due Diligence can lead to "informed consent" but it's still pretty difficult for me to say a twelve year old can give informed consent--even if they provide proof of due diligence.

Seriously, man--this is a tough and interesting problem. But I'm not ready to concede to the pesos yet.

We have to be missing something. I'm determined to figure this out.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


Yeah, it's nice to team with someone else to brainstorm about it. Still the definitive moment is when you're faced by one of these smart ass pedos who drive you to the point of becoming mad like a religious minded freak. Those who have made me feel the most impotent regarding my arguments have been pedos arguing for their right of molesting children. I've ended up calling them degenerate pieces of shit and dropped the argument with the consequent feeling of having been a bigot with no valid argument.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Dude, I have been there! To make arguments based on rhetoric is not an option for intellectually-honest people. It sounds like you strive for that goal as much as I do. We don't want to caught using bias (easily falsifiable) to "support" our arguments.

I'm still not ready to give up on this. Give me some time. I think that I'm missing something very fundamental. I will certainly PM you when I get this sorted (or on the right track, at least).
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


Yeah let me know definitely, I will make my best effort to detect any flaws in whatever you present until perchance we may arrive to the goal ;)
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Puffs

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01/30/2013 11:25 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
A Libertarian would never agree that the government has any business in marriage of any sort, that a license to marry is just another excuse to collect tax and exert control. The question is really for people who are not libertarian.
simultaneous_final (OP)

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01/30/2013 11:27 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
A Libertarian would never agree that the government has any business in marriage of any sort, that a license to marry is just another excuse to collect tax and exert control. The question is really for people who are not libertarian.
 Quoting: Puffs


Again, this poll does not imply ANYTHING about the government or its endorsement of right. It asks about RIGHTS. Nothing more or less.
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
AdamCanFly

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01/30/2013 11:46 PM
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Re: Poll for Libertarians
It's not up to me. It's up to the institution under which they are to be married. The state shouldn't have any say.

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