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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 33674751
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02/04/2013 02:27 PM
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I certainly hope so.

We are in no way, shape or form, intellectually equal.

I surpassed you a loooong time ago.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

Actually no. You haven't refuted anything I've said so far. I'd like to see you demolish St. Anselm's ontological proof. That would be something.

Trying to prove the absence of Supreme Being would be extremely difficult. I doubt your intellectually superior mind could do it. I encourage you to try.

So far you've largely used sterotypes, and your laughable form of debate would get you laughed out of a survey course of Philosophy.

It's interesting behavior because for the most part, I think I'm the only person who has praised rational atheists in this thread, not because I agree with them, but because I respect anyone willing to take the time to formulate their beliefs.

On the other hand, your idea of debate is based upon pejoratives.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


See how Christians debate?

They think they know everything and attempt to portray me as an atheist because no other ideas will come to your tiny little brain as to how you can paint me into your little box.

It's not working either.

You're right, I'm not going to debate you, I will only use logic and reason because to debate, AGAIN, you have to have FACTS.

Something Christians severely lack.

Are you getting it yet?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751


Have you used one fact yet? I'm waiting for one.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Ive brought lots of facts.

1. You can't debate anything without evidence and facts.

2. Christians don't have any facts.

3. We are not intellectual equals.

Shall I go on? I have more.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 02:28 PM

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Hahahahah I'm laughing at you. The comparison of a billion souls covered in excrement because you're a sad little man and unhappy with Christians it too much.

You got upset with being called a jerk. Talk about oversensitive!

rofl
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


That doesn't sound like the words of someone who is having a good time to me.

No, those are the words of butthurt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

See that precisely what I mentioned. It's the sign of a total lack of decorum. If I use baby words like butthurt x 3, do I win? Huh huh?

Pathetic loser. Be the intellectual you claim to be, if you dare.

I am totally mocking you and laughing. Not because you are brilliant, but because you're so weak.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I've already won.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either.

The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 02:29 PM

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What a silly troll who doesn't have a clue about debating.

NEXT!!!!
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:34 PM
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That doesn't sound like the words of someone who is having a good time to me.

No, those are the words of butthurt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

See that precisely what I mentioned. It's the sign of a total lack of decorum. If I use baby words like butthurt x 3, do I win? Huh huh?

Pathetic loser. Be the intellectual you claim to be, if you dare.

I am totally mocking you and laughing. Not because you are brilliant, but because you're so weak.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I've already won.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either.

The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I've debated Christians before, I know exactly where this is heading.

I'm just not willing to waste hours in a chat room with you debating nonsense. And yes, it is an excruciating waste of time.

My mind is made up and so is yours, what's to debate?

I've been there, I've left, and I'm not going back. You're still stuck where I was 25 years ago, I've moved on to greener pastures.

Simple enough.

I'm so far above your fake "God" he looks like an ant from where I'm at.

When you catch up, I'll be around.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:35 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
What a silly troll who doesn't have a clue about debating.

NEXT!!!!
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Do you make a habit of conversing with "trolls" for three pages before you come to that conclusion?
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:36 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Your Christian religion has also led you down erroneous religious paths. Jesus did not start the Christian religion; his followers did many years after the fact. Jesus cannot save you; you must save yourself, and you do that according to how you live your life. Jesus did not die for your sins; your sins are your own, not his. He died to show you that there is no death; that is what Lazarus and the resurrection is all about. But your religion does not want you to know that because then they would have no power over you. As it is now, the church holds you in life-long fear that you will rot in hell if you don't obey the church's commands. The CHURCH'S commands, not God's commands. The church commands you by putting words in God's mouth. Is that the kind of bogus faith you want?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638

Jesus did begin a religious movement which began as soon as he begin preaching. We know that from the disciples who He immediately attracted.

What you're discussing is the state religion of Constantine which I admit happened far later. Prior is was a tiny movement.

Jesus by definition by dying on the Cross was done to redeem the whole world. He said it many times. That is the basis for Christianity, and if He didn't come back three days later and ressurected then it wouldn't be a religion. You don't understand much about Christian belief, do you?

If you're proposing your own belief system, then instead you should explain that carefully, not interweave Jesus within your idea. You should expand upon this self-saving, for what you say is not clear.

Are you a Gnostic, because it sounds like it?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Tell me where Jesus said he was going to redeem the world from the cross...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638


Here -- one where he clearly points back to the prophecies of the Old Testament. There are more.

Luke 24:44-48

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


So you're going to believe the words written 50-100 years after the fact that Jesus said this or that? More like someone put those words in his mouth.

Actually, Jesus "supposedly" said only these things from the cross:

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

(to one of the criminals) "Truly I say to you, you will be with me in paradise."

(to his mother) "Woman, this is your son." (to the disciple) "This is your mother." (John 19:26-27)

"My God, why have you forsaken me?"

"I thirst."

"It is finished." (He dies)
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:36 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
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That doesn't sound like the words of someone who is having a good time to me.

No, those are the words of butthurt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

See that precisely what I mentioned. It's the sign of a total lack of decorum. If I use baby words like butthurt x 3, do I win? Huh huh?

Pathetic loser. Be the intellectual you claim to be, if you dare.

I am totally mocking you and laughing. Not because you are brilliant, but because you're so weak.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I've already won.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either.

The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


See bolded...

I am sorry if I missed it... I am interested in seeing this proof...
Adventus Domini

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02/04/2013 02:36 PM

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Jesus did begin a religious movement which began as soon as he begin preaching. We know that from the disciples who He immediately attracted.

What you're discussing is the state religion of Constantine which I admit happened far later. Prior is was a tiny movement.

Jesus by definition by dying on the Cross was done to redeem the whole world. He said it many times. That is the basis for Christianity, and if He didn't come back three days later and ressurected then it wouldn't be a religion. You don't understand much about Christian belief, do you?

If you're proposing your own belief system, then instead you should explain that carefully, not interweave Jesus within your idea. You should expand upon this self-saving, for what you say is not clear.

Are you a Gnostic, because it sounds like it?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Tell me where Jesus said he was going to redeem the world from the cross...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638


Here -- one where he clearly points back to the prophecies of the Old Testament. There are more.

Luke 24:44-48

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


You know, it is nice to quote those verse's, they sound nice, and I am sure they are empowering to those of the faith... Following them, I am relatively certain gives people peace of mind...

But, for me, I see a big scam going on...

Using a concept, such as a prime source, which in my opinion is very accurate, then implanting the idea that this source, through disciples, laid down commandments, and sent his only son to redeem the world, due to a corruption by satan, is RIDICULOUS...

A control mechanism of the highest order, set up in a hierarchial manner to maintain and instill this paradigm...

Very clever, I might add... As no one could prove to another that the concept being put forth, and the resulting books are or are not from the prime source...

For such things, you have to go with combined research, and intuition...With intuition as the most reliable...

My intuition says - Buyer beware, scam alert...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


So I guess you would discount the plethora of Old Testament prophecies pointing to Jesus Christ?

Can you also discount the non-biblical scholars and historians in the first century that establish the historic basis of Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel?

If you don't discount them, then how does this work into the sales-pitch?

As for me, I draw my faith from one undeniable fact: I am living proof of a life RADICALLY changed by the resurrecting power of Jesus Christ. And straight up, that is real.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 02:37 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
At least they are somewhat interesting and original.

The religious threads all say the exact same thing and whenever one of those nuts tries to prove something, they type out some quote from their stupid, fucking book.

It's truly mind numbing.

They have zero debate skills, they certainly don't have any facts, and when you paint them into a corner, you get this.

lala

I've fucking had it with those people.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

Where are the facts of this intellectually superior mind? No facts, only subjective opinion.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 02:37 PM
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 02:38 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
It might have been a good idea to leave that line out.

Talk about meaningless drivel.

You are ALL exactly the same.

Not a shred of difference.

I can pick a "Christian" out in two seconds flat, and it isn't because they are so spiritual and good either.

Some of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard come from the mouths of most Christians.

I should know, I was a devout Christian for 25 years and left because you people are ALL, yes every single one of you, the same. The endless contradictions and hypocrisy were two other reasons.

That book and subsequent religion is full of SHIT!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751


Where are the facts of this intellectually superior mind. There are none.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 02:39 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Funny how you picked that one line out amongst everything that was said in that post.

You're a Christian, aren't you?

See how easy that was?

See ya. hi
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751


Any facts yet...NOPE.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 02:40 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
No, no it's not.

It comes from 25 YEARS of research and asking questions.

You, on the other hand, haven't looked outside of your box for your entire life.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

Any facts here...NOPE.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:41 PM
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See that precisely what I mentioned. It's the sign of a total lack of decorum. If I use baby words like butthurt x 3, do I win? Huh huh?

Pathetic loser. Be the intellectual you claim to be, if you dare.

I am totally mocking you and laughing. Not because you are brilliant, but because you're so weak.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I've already won.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either.

The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


See bolded...

I am sorry if I missed it... I am interested in seeing this proof...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


You're better off watching paint dry.

There isn't any.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:42 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
It's time to start thinking about what you've been taught. If you've thought about it, weighed its pros and cons, investigated other religions, other philosophies, other ways of living, then you came to your decision on your own rather than being indoctrinated into your religion since birth. Now you won't feel the need to convince others of your faith because it is rock solid within you and it matters not what others believe. Now you can live your faith in peace and harmony, and you realize that if everyone lived their faith in peace and harmony, this world would be a heaven on earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638

Actually, while raised a Christian, I am much older than you imagine and have intentionally chosen to believe in Christianity by studying it. I have believed it by using Faith and Reason in a very disciplined way by a mind trained in college and graduate school. I am hardly indoctrinated.

Are you indoctrinated? I wouldn't ever say such things, for do you not have Free Will, or are you an automaton? I don't know anyone save those who truly was indoctrinated by going through a starvation process mostly of carbohydrates and went through a long period of sleep deprivation and so became mentally broken through a cult process. Those folks are rare and universally identified, for example like the Unification Church. It's intellectually dishonest to say that Christians only believe because of indoctrination, for in reality they have autonomy and can easily choose what they believe, just as atheists choose what they believe.

I agree that some faiths if lived into might lead to a world of harmony. Most faiths in history can get along, although there are periods in which fundamentalists of all religions have persecuted each other. Even Buddhists who are known for being peaceful (which is a stereotype not always bourne out by reality) have engaged in ethnic cleansing. Your model is very simplistic and stereotypical.

In Gnostic thought, which seems to be your thought, Lucifer is the lightbringer and so in that religion, the one in which Christians feel is the incarnation of Evil is the last one they'd worship. I hope you're not believing in that discredited spiritual system.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I am not a gnostic but who discredited gnostic thought? You? Your church?

Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ has performed His work of salvation.

So you see, your religion's obsession with evil was wrong about Gnosis. The previous paragraph was copied from the Gnosis Archive ( [link to gnosis.org] Christianity's mission is to discredit any other religion or philosophy to maintain that Christianity is the only true religion. You have studied your religion but you have not opened your mind to the study of other religions or philosophic thought so you have no right to condemn them or subject them to evil intentions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638


Gnostics believe this, which I believe is PURE EVIL.
[link to www.theforbiddenreligion.com]
"11. LUCIFER, THE LIBERATOR

Gnostic myths relate that Lucifer is the Messenger of the Unknowable God. We had said that this God, the greatest one, unreachable and unknowable, is unable to penetrate this limited universe of impure and satanic matter. But according to these myths, he can send someone, Lucifer. Only with a supreme sacrifice can an incredibly Spiritual and pure being of antimatter fire break through into the infernal world of this universe. According to Gnostic legends and myths, the great Unknowable God sent Lucifer, angel of indescribable fire and light, to show man the light and to help him wake up and see his true origin, the origin of his Spirit, which has been perversely imprisoned in this impure matter called body-soul. He is an uncreated being, who came to the created world to bring Light: Liberating Gnosis. The saving knowledge which can wake man up and help him free his imprisoned Spirit. The knowledge which allows him to know who he truly is, why he is here in this world and what he has to do to liberate himself and fulfil his Spirit, which belongs to another uncreated and unknowable plane.

We have said that Lucifer came to the world to wake man up, to help him remember his divine origin, the divine origin of his Spirit, and to help him free himself from the body-soul in which he is trapped, and from created time and matter. "
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


"Gnostic myths ..." need I say more? Someone, maybe a long-lost angry Christian, may have hung that myth on the Gnostics and it stuck. It does not say they believe it, it simply states what the myth said. Learn to read and apprehend before you shoot arrows at something you know nothing about except hearsay.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:42 PM
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Tell me where Jesus said he was going to redeem the world from the cross...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638


Here -- one where he clearly points back to the prophecies of the Old Testament. There are more.

Luke 24:44-48

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


You know, it is nice to quote those verse's, they sound nice, and I am sure they are empowering to those of the faith... Following them, I am relatively certain gives people peace of mind...

But, for me, I see a big scam going on...

Using a concept, such as a prime source, which in my opinion is very accurate, then implanting the idea that this source, through disciples, laid down commandments, and sent his only son to redeem the world, due to a corruption by satan, is RIDICULOUS...

A control mechanism of the highest order, set up in a hierarchial manner to maintain and instill this paradigm...

Very clever, I might add... As no one could prove to another that the concept being put forth, and the resulting books are or are not from the prime source...

For such things, you have to go with combined research, and intuition...With intuition as the most reliable...

My intuition says - Buyer beware, scam alert...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


So I guess you would discount the plethora of Old Testament prophecies pointing to Jesus Christ?

Can you also discount the non-biblical scholars and historians in the first century that establish the historic basis of Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel?

If you don't discount them, then how does this work into the sales-pitch?

As for me, I draw my faith from one undeniable fact: I am living proof of a life RADICALLY changed by the resurrecting power of Jesus Christ. And straight up, that is real.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


I have felt the same thing without Jesus.

Explain.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 02:42 PM

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Actually no. You haven't refuted anything I've said so far. I'd like to see you demolish St. Anselm's ontological proof. That would be something.

Trying to prove the absence of Supreme Being would be extremely difficult. I doubt your intellectually superior mind could do it. I encourage you to try.

So far you've largely used sterotypes, and your laughable form of debate would get you laughed out of a survey course of Philosophy.

It's interesting behavior because for the most part, I think I'm the only person who has praised rational atheists in this thread, not because I agree with them, but because I respect anyone willing to take the time to formulate their beliefs.

On the other hand, your idea of debate is based upon pejoratives.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


See how Christians debate?

They think they know everything and attempt to portray me as an atheist because no other ideas will come to your tiny little brain as to how you can paint me into your little box.

It's not working either.

You're right, I'm not going to debate you, I will only use logic and reason because to debate, AGAIN, you have to have FACTS.

Something Christians severely lack.

Are you getting it yet?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751


Have you used one fact yet? I'm waiting for one.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Ive brought lots of facts.

1. You can't debate anything without evidence and facts.

2. Christians don't have any facts.

3. We are not intellectual equals.

Shall I go on? I have more.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

Now here the issue, the AC insists that he's brought "lots of facts", and yet he hasn't brought one. That means he's a liar, quite frankly, and so of extremely poor credibility.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:43 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
At least they are somewhat interesting and original.

The religious threads all say the exact same thing and whenever one of those nuts tries to prove something, they type out some quote from their stupid, fucking book.

It's truly mind numbing.

They have zero debate skills, they certainly don't have any facts, and when you paint them into a corner, you get this.

lala

I've fucking had it with those people.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

Where are the facts of this intellectually superior mind? No facts, only subjective opinion.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I don't need facts, only one fact.

That you have zero facts.

/"debate"
Adventus Domini

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02/04/2013 02:44 PM

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...

See that precisely what I mentioned. It's the sign of a total lack of decorum. If I use baby words like butthurt x 3, do I win? Huh huh?

Pathetic loser. Be the intellectual you claim to be, if you dare.

I am totally mocking you and laughing. Not because you are brilliant, but because you're so weak.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I've already won.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either.

The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


See bolded...

I am sorry if I missed it... I am interested in seeing this proof...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


As posted before:

Is there evidence of God?

Science is required to assume things to clarify a picture of what is in the natural world. They take the present, measurable data, and apply assumptions that resolve conflicts in the data set. So here are some puzzling facts about life that create conflict in the evolutionary data set.

The Cell: Evolution explains the transition between life forms. Evolution requires a cell that already has the built in capacity to reproduce itself. So how did we get a cell?

Constants in Nature: Evolution depends on constants being in place -- our existence here is dependent upon and extremely fine-tuned Universe.

Evil: Evolution cannot explain the depth of human evil. Evolution presumes cruelty and harshness, but it is out of necessity. So how do you explain this human evil that far exceeds necessity and reaches depths that are unfathomable?

Rationality: Evolution cannot account for rationality because evolution says we are programmed in the world to survive and reproduce. Our minds are organs of survival. They are not organs of truth. So if we believe in rationality we require something outside of evolution to account for that.

Morality: Evolution cannot account for morality -- from the little things, to deeds of heroic greatness. Both the person who offers up his seat to an elderly woman to the person who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies – both are operating outside the scope of evolution. In both cases there is no advantage to be gained. What is the evolutionary explanation for morality?

Art: We sing, dance, sculpt, cook, etc., etc. We encapsulate our emotions into these practices to create something of meaning that provides no evolutionary advantage.

I ask you to consider the God explanation. Why do we have a cell that shows the structure of complexity? Because, the cell has been intelligently designed by an intelligent designer. Why does the universe show complexity? Same answer. Why is there rationality? Because those are characteristics of the designer. Why is the depth of human evil so deep? Because our lives are a drama in which good and evil are in constant struggle (the Christian story). Why is there morality in the world, or why do we all feel, even when it works against our advantage, a moral law within us? Because there is a moral lawgiver who gave it to us. Why do we exercise our creative ability in the form of artistic endeavor? Because we are created in the image of a creator.

When you put it all together, the presupposition of God resolves the errors in the data set. Suddenly the light comes on with respect to these mysteries I’ve listed above. It provides an explanation. Now, there may be a better explanation, but I have yet to hear one.

Is there proof that Jesus existed and was who he said he was?

From: [link to www.gotquestions.org]

Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 02:46 PM

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See that precisely what I mentioned. It's the sign of a total lack of decorum. If I use baby words like butthurt x 3, do I win? Huh huh?

Pathetic loser. Be the intellectual you claim to be, if you dare.

I am totally mocking you and laughing. Not because you are brilliant, but because you're so weak.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I've already won.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either.

The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


See bolded...

I am sorry if I missed it... I am interested in seeing this proof...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


It's the famous one by CS Lewis:
Thread: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU (Page 6)
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:47 PM
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See how Christians debate?

They think they know everything and attempt to portray me as an atheist because no other ideas will come to your tiny little brain as to how you can paint me into your little box.

It's not working either.

You're right, I'm not going to debate you, I will only use logic and reason because to debate, AGAIN, you have to have FACTS.

Something Christians severely lack.

Are you getting it yet?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751


Have you used one fact yet? I'm waiting for one.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Ive brought lots of facts.

1. You can't debate anything without evidence and facts.

2. Christians don't have any facts.

3. We are not intellectual equals.

Shall I go on? I have more.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

Now here the issue, the AC insists that he's brought "lots of facts", and yet he hasn't brought one. That means he's a liar, quite frankly, and so of extremely poor credibility.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I cannot for the life of me understand why you cannot grasp the concept of no facts = no debate.

Wait, yes I can, you're a Christian.

There is no debate without facts and you have zero.

It never was a debate and THAT is a fact.

I win.

Game over.

See ya later.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:48 PM
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I've already won.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either.

The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


See bolded...

I am sorry if I missed it... I am interested in seeing this proof...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


As posted before:

Is there evidence of God?

Science is required to assume things to clarify a picture of what is in the natural world. They take the present, measurable data, and apply assumptions that resolve conflicts in the data set. So here are some puzzling facts about life that create conflict in the evolutionary data set.

The Cell: Evolution explains the transition between life forms. Evolution requires a cell that already has the built in capacity to reproduce itself. So how did we get a cell?

Constants in Nature: Evolution depends on constants being in place -- our existence here is dependent upon and extremely fine-tuned Universe.

Evil: Evolution cannot explain the depth of human evil. Evolution presumes cruelty and harshness, but it is out of necessity. So how do you explain this human evil that far exceeds necessity and reaches depths that are unfathomable?

Rationality: Evolution cannot account for rationality because evolution says we are programmed in the world to survive and reproduce. Our minds are organs of survival. They are not organs of truth. So if we believe in rationality we require something outside of evolution to account for that.

Morality: Evolution cannot account for morality -- from the little things, to deeds of heroic greatness. Both the person who offers up his seat to an elderly woman to the person who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies – both are operating outside the scope of evolution. In both cases there is no advantage to be gained. What is the evolutionary explanation for morality?

Art: We sing, dance, sculpt, cook, etc., etc. We encapsulate our emotions into these practices to create something of meaning that provides no evolutionary advantage.

I ask you to consider the God explanation. Why do we have a cell that shows the structure of complexity? Because, the cell has been intelligently designed by an intelligent designer. Why does the universe show complexity? Same answer. Why is there rationality? Because those are characteristics of the designer. Why is the depth of human evil so deep? Because our lives are a drama in which good and evil are in constant struggle (the Christian story). Why is there morality in the world, or why do we all feel, even when it works against our advantage, a moral law within us? Because there is a moral lawgiver who gave it to us. Why do we exercise our creative ability in the form of artistic endeavor? Because we are created in the image of a creator.

When you put it all together, the presupposition of God resolves the errors in the data set. Suddenly the light comes on with respect to these mysteries I’ve listed above. It provides an explanation. Now, there may be a better explanation, but I have yet to hear one.

Is there proof that Jesus existed and was who he said he was?

From: [link to www.gotquestions.org]

Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

 Quoting: Adventus Domini


See?

There's a Christians "proof" right there.

That's all you got. Hence whi I don't "debate" Christians.

Hilarious! cruise
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:54 PM
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Tell me where Jesus said he was going to redeem the world from the cross...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638


Here -- one where he clearly points back to the prophecies of the Old Testament. There are more.

Luke 24:44-48

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


You know, it is nice to quote those verse's, they sound nice, and I am sure they are empowering to those of the faith... Following them, I am relatively certain gives people peace of mind...

But, for me, I see a big scam going on...

Using a concept, such as a prime source, which in my opinion is very accurate, then implanting the idea that this source, through disciples, laid down commandments, and sent his only son to redeem the world, due to a corruption by satan, is RIDICULOUS...

A control mechanism of the highest order, set up in a hierarchial manner to maintain and instill this paradigm...

Very clever, I might add... As no one could prove to another that the concept being put forth, and the resulting books are or are not from the prime source...

For such things, you have to go with combined research, and intuition...With intuition as the most reliable...

My intuition says - Buyer beware, scam alert...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


So I guess you would discount the plethora of Old Testament prophecies pointing to Jesus Christ?

Can you also discount the non-biblical scholars and historians in the first century that establish the historic basis of Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel?

If you don't discount them, then how does this work into the sales-pitch?

As for me, I draw my faith from one undeniable fact: I am living proof of a life RADICALLY changed by the resurrecting power of Jesus Christ. And straight up, that is real.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Essentially, yes I would discount them...

I would discount them in terms of spiritual reality, but, not discount them in learning how the control mechanism works...

Life can and is radfically changed by recognising that the spirit stream animating your body is real, it has for me, and I can relate to you...

But, you have missed the point - the point being - religious teachings say this is the work of a jesus christ, I say it is not...Advancing spiritually is recognising who you are... Religion is designed to catch you in this advancing state, and try to contain you...

If you completely woke up to who you are, then all control mechanisms on this planet go poof for you... If sufficient numbers did this, the game/jig is up...

Do you now see the purpose of religious structure??? I don't think so, but, I tried...
Adventus Domini

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That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either.

The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


See bolded...

I am sorry if I missed it... I am interested in seeing this proof...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


As posted before:

Is there evidence of God?

Science is required to assume things to clarify a picture of what is in the natural world. They take the present, measurable data, and apply assumptions that resolve conflicts in the data set. So here are some puzzling facts about life that create conflict in the evolutionary data set.

The Cell: Evolution explains the transition between life forms. Evolution requires a cell that already has the built in capacity to reproduce itself. So how did we get a cell?

Constants in Nature: Evolution depends on constants being in place -- our existence here is dependent upon and extremely fine-tuned Universe.

Evil: Evolution cannot explain the depth of human evil. Evolution presumes cruelty and harshness, but it is out of necessity. So how do you explain this human evil that far exceeds necessity and reaches depths that are unfathomable?

Rationality: Evolution cannot account for rationality because evolution says we are programmed in the world to survive and reproduce. Our minds are organs of survival. They are not organs of truth. So if we believe in rationality we require something outside of evolution to account for that.

Morality: Evolution cannot account for morality -- from the little things, to deeds of heroic greatness. Both the person who offers up his seat to an elderly woman to the person who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies – both are operating outside the scope of evolution. In both cases there is no advantage to be gained. What is the evolutionary explanation for morality?

Art: We sing, dance, sculpt, cook, etc., etc. We encapsulate our emotions into these practices to create something of meaning that provides no evolutionary advantage.

I ask you to consider the God explanation. Why do we have a cell that shows the structure of complexity? Because, the cell has been intelligently designed by an intelligent designer. Why does the universe show complexity? Same answer. Why is there rationality? Because those are characteristics of the designer. Why is the depth of human evil so deep? Because our lives are a drama in which good and evil are in constant struggle (the Christian story). Why is there morality in the world, or why do we all feel, even when it works against our advantage, a moral law within us? Because there is a moral lawgiver who gave it to us. Why do we exercise our creative ability in the form of artistic endeavor? Because we are created in the image of a creator.

When you put it all together, the presupposition of God resolves the errors in the data set. Suddenly the light comes on with respect to these mysteries I’ve listed above. It provides an explanation. Now, there may be a better explanation, but I have yet to hear one.

Is there proof that Jesus existed and was who he said he was?

From: [link to www.gotquestions.org]

Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

 Quoting: Adventus Domini


See?

There's a Christians "proof" right there.

That's all you got. Hence whi I don't "debate" Christians.

Hilarious! cruise
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751


How about we get into a discussion on Old Testament prophecy? I'll take you to hundreds of prophecies, written centuries before Christ, and then you do mental calisthenics trying to disprove them. Ready?
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 02:56 PM

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At least they are somewhat interesting and original.

The religious threads all say the exact same thing and whenever one of those nuts tries to prove something, they type out some quote from their stupid, fucking book.

It's truly mind numbing.

They have zero debate skills, they certainly don't have any facts, and when you paint them into a corner, you get this.

lala

I've fucking had it with those people.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

Where are the facts of this intellectually superior mind? No facts, only subjective opinion.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I don't need facts, only one fact.

That you have zero facts.

/"debate"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751


You haven't presented one fact, and you haven't stated anything really except blather. Look through all of your posts, there's nothing whatsoever that proves that God doesn't exist. You can produce no fact of the absence of God. I can't either.

If you go back and actually have the courtesy of reading my posts which were quite balanced at first and not the ridiculous contradictions between us, then it was a rational attempt at dialogue as dialectic, not debate. Debates are weak attempts to persuade by language and bring in facts, but in the absence of facts, bringing in theories, and then bringing in philosophical proofs.

So far you have not presented anything close to either debate or dialectic, only your pejorative ridden complaints about Christians. You probably get away with that most of the time, and you may feel entirely justified about it, but you're not proving anything so far.

Now me, I'm not big on reason as a means of finding God. I'm more relational because spirituality is not solely based upon Reason but also Faith. I cannot make you believe anything, nor want you to because of Free Will. What I would rather do is help the suffering, and possibly if they were interested then share my faith. That's how people have grown the Church of Jesus Christ into a billion people.

To discount it flat out with lame scatological humor is not what intellectuals do. That's what children do.

Even if it's not true to you, it is true to a billion people. I would never label another religion in such terms, nor stereotype any group of people in such a way. It's absurd and anti-intellectual.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 03:00 PM
Don'tBeAfraid

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Have you used one fact yet? I'm waiting for one.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Ive brought lots of facts.

1. You can't debate anything without evidence and facts.

2. Christians don't have any facts.

3. We are not intellectual equals.

Shall I go on? I have more.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

Now here the issue, the AC insists that he's brought "lots of facts", and yet he hasn't brought one. That means he's a liar, quite frankly, and so of extremely poor credibility.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I cannot for the life of me understand why you cannot grasp the concept of no facts = no debate.

Wait, yes I can, you're a Christian.

There is no debate without facts and you have zero.

It never was a debate and THAT is a fact.

I win.

Game over.

See ya later.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751


Can you even define what a debate is? I doubt it seriously. You're so dishonest. It's unbecoming.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 03:01 PM
Anonymous Coward
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I've already won.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751

That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either.

The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


See bolded...

I am sorry if I missed it... I am interested in seeing this proof...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


As posted before:

Is there evidence of God?

Science is required to assume things to clarify a picture of what is in the natural world. They take the present, measurable data, and apply assumptions that resolve conflicts in the data set. So here are some puzzling facts about life that create conflict in the evolutionary data set.

The Cell: Evolution explains the transition between life forms. Evolution requires a cell that already has the built in capacity to reproduce itself. So how did we get a cell?

Constants in Nature: Evolution depends on constants being in place -- our existence here is dependent upon and extremely fine-tuned Universe.

Evil: Evolution cannot explain the depth of human evil. Evolution presumes cruelty and harshness, but it is out of necessity. So how do you explain this human evil that far exceeds necessity and reaches depths that are unfathomable?

Rationality: Evolution cannot account for rationality because evolution says we are programmed in the world to survive and reproduce. Our minds are organs of survival. They are not organs of truth. So if we believe in rationality we require something outside of evolution to account for that.

Morality: Evolution cannot account for morality -- from the little things, to deeds of heroic greatness. Both the person who offers up his seat to an elderly woman to the person who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies – both are operating outside the scope of evolution. In both cases there is no advantage to be gained. What is the evolutionary explanation for morality?

Art: We sing, dance, sculpt, cook, etc., etc. We encapsulate our emotions into these practices to create something of meaning that provides no evolutionary advantage.

I ask you to consider the God explanation. Why do we have a cell that shows the structure of complexity? Because, the cell has been intelligently designed by an intelligent designer. Why does the universe show complexity? Same answer. Why is there rationality? Because those are characteristics of the designer. Why is the depth of human evil so deep? Because our lives are a drama in which good and evil are in constant struggle (the Christian story). Why is there morality in the world, or why do we all feel, even when it works against our advantage, a moral law within us? Because there is a moral lawgiver who gave it to us. Why do we exercise our creative ability in the form of artistic endeavor? Because we are created in the image of a creator.

When you put it all together, the presupposition of God resolves the errors in the data set. Suddenly the light comes on with respect to these mysteries I’ve listed above. It provides an explanation. Now, there may be a better explanation, but I have yet to hear one.

Is there proof that Jesus existed and was who he said he was?

From: [link to www.gotquestions.org]

Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Ok, the first part of this is, a very well thought out, and put together thesis...

The second part is based upon so-called historical fact...Of which I trust the least...
Don'tBeAfraid

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
What a silly troll who doesn't have a clue about debating.

NEXT!!!!
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Do you make a habit of conversing with "trolls" for three pages before you come to that conclusion?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751


You see, unlike you who has not decorum, nor intellectual honesty, I actually tried to engage you as a gentleman on an equal footing while you flung pejoratives and refused to formulate a thesis or provide evidence.

So I debated over several pages while you slung mud, then who is the better man? Not you my friend, not even remotely.

ROFL. And again...NEXT!

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 03:07 PM
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02/04/2013 03:10 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Here are the FACTS

Adventus Domini

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02/04/2013 03:10 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
...


Here -- one where he clearly points back to the prophecies of the Old Testament. There are more.

Luke 24:44-48

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


You know, it is nice to quote those verse's, they sound nice, and I am sure they are empowering to those of the faith... Following them, I am relatively certain gives people peace of mind...

But, for me, I see a big scam going on...

Using a concept, such as a prime source, which in my opinion is very accurate, then implanting the idea that this source, through disciples, laid down commandments, and sent his only son to redeem the world, due to a corruption by satan, is RIDICULOUS...

A control mechanism of the highest order, set up in a hierarchial manner to maintain and instill this paradigm...

Very clever, I might add... As no one could prove to another that the concept being put forth, and the resulting books are or are not from the prime source...

For such things, you have to go with combined research, and intuition...With intuition as the most reliable...

My intuition says - Buyer beware, scam alert...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


So I guess you would discount the plethora of Old Testament prophecies pointing to Jesus Christ?

Can you also discount the non-biblical scholars and historians in the first century that establish the historic basis of Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel?

If you don't discount them, then how does this work into the sales-pitch?

As for me, I draw my faith from one undeniable fact: I am living proof of a life RADICALLY changed by the resurrecting power of Jesus Christ. And straight up, that is real.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Essentially, yes I would discount them...

I would discount them in terms of spiritual reality, but, not discount them in learning how the control mechanism works...

Life can and is radfically changed by recognising that the spirit stream animating your body is real, it has for me, and I can relate to you...

But, you have missed the point - the point being - religious teachings say this is the work of a jesus christ, I say it is not...Advancing spiritually is recognising who you are... Religion is designed to catch you in this advancing state, and try to contain you...

If you completely woke up to who you are, then all control mechanisms on this planet go poof for you... If sufficient numbers did this, the game/jig is up...

Do you now see the purpose of religious structure??? I don't think so, but, I tried...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Time out -- I have not palate for religion. I am a follower of Jesus because I am a life radically changed by Jesus Christ – a power much greater than myself that could change me from my powerless state of existence.

I look around and don’t have to look far to understand that we exist in a fallen world. This is paradise lost. It’s like witnessesing a shipwreck – a treasure ship that was destroyed, and all that is left are scattered pieces of beauty. This is a fallen world.

God is perfect love. God is perfect justice. How do the two reconcile in a fallen world? For me, the answer was simple: Perfect love met perfect justice at the cross. There is nothing good in me and there is no way I can account for the things I've done. However, I wear the righteousness of Christ. And because of that afforded grace, I am changed... and I am free.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor 12:9,10
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 03:15 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Here's the complete fallacy of the atheist position. They often make claims of mental superiority from a position of Reason. Then they fail to deliver on a thesis and evidence of the absence of God. Then they resort to saying something like, "Well it doesn't matter, I win because you're a dope for deluding yourself..."

Well, if I am right and a Supreme Being created not only the Earth but the vast Cosmos, and I believe and worship such a being, and also His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, and you don't, then you LOSE.

If I serve the suffering with altruism and you don't, and there is no God, then I don't lose anything, but I gain by my experiences while you remain selfish.

If I serve the suffering with altruism and you do too, and there is no God, then we both gain by our service, but neither us win after death. The win was the experience of altruism.

If I serve the suffering with altruism and there is a God and you don't believe but did serve the suffering with altruism, then you might be allowed into Heaven.I doubt it based upon what the Bible teaches. You might win. I hope you do, and I'm rooting for you.

There is zero downside to believing in God and Jesus. It's all on the upside.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 08:40 PM

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