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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU

 
simultaneous_final (OP)

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02/03/2013 02:03 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
I can prove God exists right here and now

You live
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1581136


Oh boy...
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Anonymous Coward
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02/03/2013 02:06 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
All of you think faith means you have to blindly believe in God. It is not faith in whether God is real or not! Wow! Think!

Faith is in God's promises! A person is supposed to have faith in all that God said He is and will do. Not faith in whether you think He is actually there. Because anyone that believes on Him is a believer, not a faith-er.

When you make a deal with someone it is in good "faith" that both parties will live up their respective commitments. That is the type of faith you must have. Everyone is confusing the type of faith.

God even states that you are to remind Him of the promises that He has made to His children. Not because He has forgotten them. No. He wants to know that you have studied all that He said He was going to to do. Faith in knowing that He will fulfill all that He has said will come to pass just as it is written.

And as I stated before, you don't have to go far to find proof of God. Asking for proof is actually an insult to God. You are like the Pharisees that asked for a sign when God stood before them as Jesus Christ. They were wicked and of their father Satan. I believe the wicked are even present here on this forum, especially the God-less bastard that stated they vomited in their mouth. Guess what... God actually says the same thing about people like you. He says that people like you make him sick to the point of vomiting - in the scripture.

Btw... Peter said there would be scoffers in these days. That they would question if God even existed and where are the promises. OOOOhh... they are happening everyday now and more are coming. Like a freight train!
Anonymous Coward
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02/03/2013 02:11 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
I used to think bibletards were annoying.
Then I realised bibletards and athiests are equally as bad.
Now I'd say athiests are the lesser of two evils.
If there were no religitards spouting their BS, there would be no athiests. flush
BossBitch

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02/03/2013 02:12 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
The flaw in that story is that one type of faith is due to simple logic and evidence, whilst the other type is due to brainwashing. You cannot compare them as equals.

By your reasoning, you would have to have "faith" about everything, every second of every day. For example, you will probably plan meetings tomorrow on the premise that you are still going to be alive. You don't know that 100%, but with simple logic and reasoning, you can ascertain that there is a great probability, and therefore can justify your "faith".

The other type of faith is blind, desperate, grasping-at-straws belief in something regardless of wether it follows logic and reasoning. For example, the group of people that all commited suicide due to their "faith" that a UFO was coming to take them away. Faith due to brainwashing is not the same as faith due to logic, sorry.

What you mean is some of us can use logic and reasoning, and some of us can't. I already knew that though.
 Quoting: BossBitch


Faith is required every second of every day for any and all people.

Also, you assume that religious people have no rational basis for their belief. What of the people who have accumulated experiential data which supports (or even shapes) their beliefs?

Take my NDE for example. It may have been a hallucination. I concede that. However, because of the quality of the experience (qualitatively indistinguishable from normal waking "reality"), I choose to have as much faith in its reality as I have in normal waking reality. Perhaps this is a mistake. Perhaps not.

Another (but hypothetical) example

Suppose a man prays to Vishnu to win a scratch-off lottery ticket. Be wins. Suppose he does the same thing the next week and wins. And again.

Would he be irrational (at that point after the third win) to have faith in the existence of Vishnu?

My point is that our accumulated experiential data forms what we consider "real". And rightly so. We make logical INDUCTIONS based upon data.

But even Aristotle realized that inductions can not be relied upon. A simpler way to say this is "statistics tell us what has been but not what is or what will be".
 Quoting: simultaneous_final

What of the people who have accumulated experiential data which supports (or even shapes) their beliefs?

If someone wants to believe something, they will be bias against any and all evidence to the contrary. You might say that Atheists do the same, but think about a person with no biases whatsoever. Lets say scientists get ahold of a child, and raise it, and never say a thing about religion one way or the other. They keep all influences, media, and agenda away from it. Do you think that child will miraculously find Jesus through visions? No. Humans are taught what to believe by other humans with an agenda. The default condition is to know nothing, and then to follow logic. If our experimental child did that, what do you think would happen? He would explore facts, science, and evolution, and would not have the faintest idea about deities.

Therefore, atheism is the natural state of being. If you would like to prove the existence of a deity, the burden is on you. Just like in court, you don't get indicted for murder because you cant prove a murder didnt take place. Indeed, if someone would like to prove a murder took place, they will have to come up with some solid evidence. And "faith" certainly wouldnt cut it in a court of law.
simultaneous_final (OP)

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02/03/2013 02:13 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
All of you think faith means you have to blindly believe in God. It is not faith in whether God is real or not! Wow! Think!

Faith is in God's promises! A person is supposed to have faith in all that God said He is and will do. Not faith in whether you think He is actually there. Because anyone that believes on Him is a believer, not a faith-er.

When you make a deal with someone it is in good "faith" that both parties will live up their respective commitments. That is the type of faith you must have. Everyone is confusing the type of faith.

God even states that you are to remind Him of the promises that He has made to His children. Not because He has forgotten them. No. He wants to know that you have studied all that He said He was going to to do. Faith in knowing that He will fulfill all that He has said will come to pass just as it is written.

And as I stated before, you don't have to go far to find proof of God. Asking for proof is actually an insult to God. You are like the Pharisees that asked for a sign when God stood before them as Jesus Christ. They were wicked and of their father Satan. I believe the wicked are even present here on this forum, especially the God-less bastard that stated they vomited in their mouth. Guess what... God actually says the same thing about people like you. He says that people like you make him sick to the point of vomiting - in the scripture.

Btw... Peter said there would be scoffers in these days. That they would question if God even existed and where are the promises. OOOOhh... they are happening everyday now and more are coming. Like a freight train!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18225135


We are using the lay term in this thread as different religions (and denominations thereof) have differing views on "faith".

From Wikipedia:

Depending on the religion, faith is belief in a god or gods or in the doctrines or teachings of the religion. Informal usage of faith can be quite broad, including trust or belief without proof, and "faith" is often used as a substitute for "hope", "trust" or "belief".
A subject observes itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself observing itself ad infinitum.
BossBitch

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02/03/2013 02:18 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
All of you think faith means you have to blindly believe in God. It is not faith in whether God is real or not! Wow! Think!

Faith is in God's promises! A person is supposed to have faith in all that God said He is and will do. Not faith in whether you think He is actually there. Because anyone that believes on Him is a believer, not a faith-er.

When you make a deal with someone it is in good "faith" that both parties will live up their respective commitments. That is the type of faith you must have. Everyone is confusing the type of faith.

God even states that you are to remind Him of the promises that He has made to His children. Not because He has forgotten them. No. He wants to know that you have studied all that He said He was going to to do. Faith in knowing that He will fulfill all that He has said will come to pass just as it is written.

And as I stated before, you don't have to go far to find proof of God. Asking for proof is actually an insult to God. You are like the Pharisees that asked for a sign when God stood before them as Jesus Christ. They were wicked and of their father Satan. I believe the wicked are even present here on this forum, especially the God-less bastard that stated they vomited in their mouth. Guess what... God actually says the same thing about people like you. He says that people like you make him sick to the point of vomiting - in the scripture.

Btw... Peter said there would be scoffers in these days. That they would question if God even existed and where are the promises. OOOOhh... they are happening everyday now and more are coming. Like a freight train!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18225135


What proof do you have that God exists? I can list many logical, intelligent reasons I believe I will wake up in the morning. I can justify my faith that I will be alive tomorrow. What about you? Do you have logical, intelligent reasons, a clear chain of evidence we can all follow that will show a great probability that God exists? If so, I would like nothing more than to read that list right now.
simultaneous_final (OP)

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02/03/2013 02:29 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
The flaw in that story is that one type of faith is due to simple logic and evidence, whilst the other type is due to brainwashing. You cannot compare them as equals.

By your reasoning, you would have to have "faith" about everything, every second of every day. For example, you will probably plan meetings tomorrow on the premise that you are still going to be alive. You don't know that 100%, but with simple logic and reasoning, you can ascertain that there is a great probability, and therefore can justify your "faith".

The other type of faith is blind, desperate, grasping-at-straws belief in something regardless of wether it follows logic and reasoning. For example, the group of people that all commited suicide due to their "faith" that a UFO was coming to take them away. Faith due to brainwashing is not the same as faith due to logic, sorry.

What you mean is some of us can use logic and reasoning, and some of us can't. I already knew that though.
 Quoting: BossBitch


Faith is required every second of every day for any and all people.

Also, you assume that religious people have no rational basis for their belief. What of the people who have accumulated experiential data which supports (or even shapes) their beliefs?

Take my NDE for example. It may have been a hallucination. I concede that. However, because of the quality of the experience (qualitatively indistinguishable from normal waking "reality"), I choose to have as much faith in its reality as I have in normal waking reality. Perhaps this is a mistake. Perhaps not.

Another (but hypothetical) example

Suppose a man prays to Vishnu to win a scratch-off lottery ticket. Be wins. Suppose he does the same thing the next week and wins. And again.

Would he be irrational (at that point after the third win) to have faith in the existence of Vishnu?

My point is that our accumulated experiential data forms what we consider "real". And rightly so. We make logical INDUCTIONS based upon data.

But even Aristotle realized that inductions can not be relied upon. A simpler way to say this is "statistics tell us what has been but not what is or what will be".
 Quoting: simultaneous_final

If someone wants to believe something, they will be bias against any and all evidence to the contrary.***(1)*** You might say that Atheists do the same, but think about a person with no biases whatsoever. Lets say scientists get ahold of a child, and raise it, and never say a thing about religion one way or the other. They keep all influences, media, and agenda away from it. Do you think that child will miraculously find Jesus through visions?***(2)*** No. Humans are taught what to believe by other humans with an agenda. The default condition is to know nothing, and then to follow logic. If our experimental child did that, what do you think would happen? He would explore facts, science, and evolution, and would not have the faintest idea about deities.

Therefore, atheism is the natural state of being. ***(3)***If you would like to prove the existence of a deity, the burden is on you.***(4)*** Just like in court, you don't get indicted for murder because you cant prove a murder didnt take place. Indeed, if someone would like to prove a murder took place, they will have to come up with some solid evidence. And "faith" certainly wouldnt cut it in a court of law.***(5)***
 Quoting: BossBitch


Thanks for your reply.

(1) That assertion is easily falsifiable. Beliefs are dynamic and subject to change based on the acquisition and processing of additional experiential data.

Example: I was an atheist until I had an NDE featuring a god-like being.

or

Many people are Christians until they actually read the Bible (LOL but true).

(2) It's certainly not impossible. You used Jesus as an example but any deity will do--even completely new dieties or beings. It may seem unlikely (to me as well) but it can't be ruled out as a possibility.

(3) I agree. But so is complete ignorance about all matters. I'm not implying that atheists are ignorant, mind you.

(4) I certainly agree. And that "proof" will always be lacking. It can't be proven beyond ALL doubts. And if such a deity exists, he doesn't seem interested in proving his existence to everyone even beyond a REASONABLE doubt.

(5) And yet witness testimony is always taken on faith. Even the judge and jury's respective impartialities are taken on faith.

Last Edited by simultaneous_final on 02/03/2013 02:31 AM
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simultaneous_final (OP)

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02/03/2013 02:36 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
All of you think faith means you have to blindly believe in God. It is not faith in whether God is real or not! Wow! Think!

Faith is in God's promises! A person is supposed to have faith in all that God said He is and will do. Not faith in whether you think He is actually there. Because anyone that believes on Him is a believer, not a faith-er.

When you make a deal with someone it is in good "faith" that both parties will live up their respective commitments. That is the type of faith you must have. Everyone is confusing the type of faith.

God even states that you are to remind Him of the promises that He has made to His children. Not because He has forgotten them. No. He wants to know that you have studied all that He said He was going to to do. Faith in knowing that He will fulfill all that He has said will come to pass just as it is written.

And as I stated before, you don't have to go far to find proof of God. Asking for proof is actually an insult to God. You are like the Pharisees that asked for a sign when God stood before them as Jesus Christ. They were wicked and of their father Satan. I believe the wicked are even present here on this forum, especially the God-less bastard that stated they vomited in their mouth. Guess what... God actually says the same thing about people like you. He says that people like you make him sick to the point of vomiting - in the scripture.

Btw... Peter said there would be scoffers in these days. That they would question if God even existed and where are the promises. OOOOhh... they are happening everyday now and more are coming. Like a freight train!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18225135


What proof do you have that God exists? I can list many logical, intelligent reasons I believe I will wake up in the morning. I can justify my faith that I will be alive tomorrow. What about you? Do you have logical, intelligent reasons, a clear chain of evidence we can all follow that will show a great probability that God exists? If so, I would like nothing more than to read that list right now.
 Quoting: BossBitch


Please. This thread settled that matter. There is no unfalsifiable proof that ANYTHING exists beyond your moment-to-moment concept of self.

This could be a wacky dream. When you wake up, you'll realize how silly it is to sit in a chair instead of a hatstand.
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Subjective Truthism
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02/03/2013 02:37 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Let's get right to it.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.

All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".

How can I say all this with certainty?

BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.

No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.

Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.

SO--is there a GOD?

My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.

That's why I believe in God.

But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.

So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
fuckoff2
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final



Well put, thank you!!!


5 stars for you!!!


hiding
simultaneous_final (OP)

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02/03/2013 02:39 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Let's get right to it.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.

All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".

How can I say all this with certainty?

BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.

No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.

Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.

SO--is there a GOD?

My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.

That's why I believe in God.

But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.

So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
fuckoff2
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final



Well put, thank you!!!


5 stars for you!!!


hiding
 Quoting: Subjective Truthism 33533799


Merci beaucoup!
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TheRingOfAll
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02/03/2013 02:39 AM
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clappa



I sir am an atheist, but you are very spot on. We just don't bloody know if god is there or not. I most certainly don't have faith in religion, but place that faith in other things as you said.
simultaneous_final (OP)

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02/03/2013 02:42 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
clappa



I sir am an atheist, but you are very spot on. We just don't bloody know if god is there or not. I most certainly don't have faith in religion, but place that faith in other things as you said.
 Quoting: TheRingOfAll 31127090


ROCK ON!!!
rockon
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Anonymous Coward
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02/03/2013 03:41 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Let's be honest, we argue because we enjoy it.

If both parties are really being honest about their beliefs and bring decent well thought out arguments to the table, I don't see any problem with healthy debate.

I'm an atheist, but if a non believer posts an argument or statement that is dishonest or just plain stupid I'll be first in line to shut them down.

I would hope honest believers would do the same.

Dishonest agenda driven people on both sides are the only ones who should stfu.
Anonymous Coward
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02/03/2013 03:49 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Let's get right to it.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.

All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".

How can I say all this with certainty?

BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.

No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.

Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.

SO--is there a GOD?

My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.

That's why I believe in God.

But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.

So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
fuckoff2
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final










"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Romans 1:20
BossBitch

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02/03/2013 11:43 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Please. This thread settled that matter. There is no unfalsifiable proof that ANYTHING exists beyond your moment-to-moment concept of self.

This could be a wacky dream. When you wake up, you'll realize how silly it is to sit in a chair instead of a hatstand.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


Okay, this is what you guys are doing.

You're in court, they've had a long and lengthy trial for a serial killer. The jury deliberates. The whole court in on the edge of their collective seats. Finally, the judge is going to read the verdict.

Instead, he strips off his robe and streaks around the courtroom, yelling "Justice is nothing but an abstract concept, there is no proof that it exists, and this could be a wacky dream! Hurrah!

Well, sure it could. The judge may in fact be right, but it is quite hard to live life on that premise. We live our lives in a certain context, collectively agreeing on at least a few universal truths, natural laws, and perspectives of reality.

For you to say "well, what if it was revealed that reality isnt reality?. If "X" happened, then everybody's point is moot."
I can make a list of "X"s that would make everybody's point moot, but I would decline to suggest people live their lives based on "what ifs".

As a matter of fact, this is how people get trapped in religion, because despite being able to see clearly the greater possibility that no deity exists, there is that little voice in their head that whispers "but what if....what if he is real...what if this is all a test of my faith...what if i go to Hell"

I'll stop now because I'll end up debating with you forever, and everybody will be sick to death of me if they arent already. Enjoyed the thread.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 04:49 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Many born-again Christians experience powerful life-changing spiritual experiences that cannot be denied. If you are truly born-again of the Spirit above, then there is no denying, God reveals himself to the humble and resists the proud.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. James 4:6
simultaneous_final (OP)

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02/04/2013 05:05 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Many born-again Christians experience powerful life-changing spiritual experiences that cannot be denied. If you are truly born-again of the Spirit above, then there is no denying, God reveals himself to the humble and resists the proud.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. James 4:6
 Quoting: TheLevite777


But don't you agree that those who are "humble" are those who are intellectually honest? Those who say, "I don't know"?
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Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 05:16 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Many born-again Christians experience powerful life-changing spiritual experiences that cannot be denied. If you are truly born-again of the Spirit above, then there is no denying, God reveals himself to the humble and resists the proud.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. James 4:6
 Quoting: TheLevite777


But don't you agree that those who are "humble" are those who are intellectually honest? Those who say, "I don't know"?
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


Yes, that could be akin to being humble and not being a militant atheist that all they do with their time is mock believers and think of them as idiots and put their pride in their intelligence while thinking they are too smart to believe in God. But have you asked the Father to bless you with his Holy Spirit yet? Ask and ye shall receive, all you need is a mustard seed of faith. That is what I did anyway. I had a problem with my faith, I really really wanted to believe and I guess a part of me did and so I humbled myself before the Father and asked could he help me with my faith and bless me with his Holy Spirit and I was blown away by the magnitude of what I experienced. Without his Holy Spirit, we are blind to the Truth. We need that for guidance,instruction, and to enter into the Kingdom of God. I actually felt it enter my body and I have done a lot of drugs in my life and let me tell you, there was no greater feeling. It was pure Love, total ecstasy that brought tears to my eyes. I hope you find it too my friend. God bless you.
Don'tBeAfraid

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
One cannot argue with an atheist and be an effective witness for Christ. If you really want to spread the Gospel, it's easy. There are people all around you that are hungry for meaning. There are poor people around you who need a job, clothing, food, sympathy, etc. There are people in prison who got there (the first time, not hardened criminals) because they are poor, uneducated, lack skills, and you can witness to these folks by sincerely taking them under your wing and helping them when they get out.

Why not spend more time helping those people, and less time trying to cite chaper and verse of the Bible to people who don't believe it?

Example: I'm a hard-core conservative Christian (Christ-follower if that word bothers you). If someone cited chapter and verse from the Quran, would it persuade me? Heck no. It would be a waste of their time and mine.

A lot of atheists are very intelligent scientifically and artistically minded people. They tend to have a deep appreciation for Nature and Culture. If you're sincere, why not befriend one and in making a friendship over time if there's a good moment, then share your faith? That's the traditional way to bring people to Jesus or at least sincerely share your faith.

Getting in their face and chest-thumping might make you feel better, but I'll bet it makes you feel worse too. In the heat of an exchange, you say things, often sinful things because you lose your temper.

If you were to argue every day with people on GLP about Jesus, realistically how many people do you think will actually become Christians by beating them over the head with the Bible? Probably zero. So you wasted your time, talent, and treasure like the servant who buried it in the soil, didn't you?

Believe me, there are definitely times I see purported Christians who actually are teaching from Gnostic texts and so are dangerously perverting the Gospel. Rather than spend all my time arguing with them, there's Free Will, a law from God, and so it's up to them to believe in the Bible and Jesus. I likely will not convince them. They have to decide to believe in that.

Therefore it's better for me to spend my time on GLP doing other passions like prepping in my case and showing people how to prepare for a real disaster. See my 1st link in my sig for that.

The world is a beautiful place spoiled by discord and most of that is caused by humanity. By working together on other issues, we can understand each other and find some common ground in most people. Then and only then, friend to friend or acquaintence to acquaitence, can witnessing happen.

Stop arguing, and start friendships and witnessing, if the goal is to spread the Good News about Jesus.

Honestly, why not talk to your friends and say, "My church is having a dinner. We really love your company and we like the things our church is doing to help the poor. They are so sincere there. The music program is spectacular. The youth ministry is quite well known. Can you visit with us this Sunday? Please do, because you have so many talents and could bring your skills to our church and make it stronger. Come sit with us in church. We'll drive with you so you don't get lost."

This method^ above has a success rate of over 50%. That's a much better way to witness.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 09:29 AM
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 05:28 AM
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One cannot argue with an atheist and be an effective witness for Christ. If you really want to spread the Gospel, it's easy. There are people all around you that are hungry for meaning. There are poor people around you who need a job, clothing, food, sympathy, etc. There are people in prison who got there (the first time, not hardened criminals) because they are poor, uneducated, lack skills, and you can witness to these folks by sincerely taking them under your wing and helping them when they get out.

Why not spend more time helping those people, and less time trying to cite chaper and verse of the Bible to people who don't believe it?

Example: I'm a hard-core conservative Christian (Christ-follower if that word bothers you). If someone cited chapter and verse from the Quran, would it persuade me? Heck no. It would be a waste of their time and mine.

A lot of atheists are very intelligent scientifically and artistically minded people. They tend to have a deep appreciation for Nature and Culture. If you're sincere, why not befriend one and in making a friendship over time if there's a good moment, then share your faith? That's the traditional way to bring people to Jesus or at least sincerely share your faith.

Getting in their face and chest-thumping might make you feel better, but I'll bet it makes you feel worse too. In the heat of an exchange, you say things, often sinful things because you lose your temper.

Believe me, there are definitely times I see purported Christians who actually are teaching from Gnostic texts and so are dangerously perverting the Gospel. Rather than spend all my time arguing with them, there's Free Will, a law from God, and so it's up to them to believe in the Bible and Jesus. I likely will not convince them. They have to decide to believe in that.

Therefore it's better for me to spend my time on GLP doing other passions like prepping in my case and showing people how to prepare for a real disaster. See my 1st link in my sig for that.

The world is a beautiful place spoiled by discord and most of that is caused by humanity. By working together on other issues, we can understand each other and find some common ground in most people. Then and only then, friend to friend or acquaintence to acquaitences, can witnessing happen.

Stop arguing, and start friendships and witnessing, if the goal is to spread the Good News about Jesus.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


"Example: I'm a hard-core conservative Christian" and that's exactly why we have atheists... good going.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 05:33 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
One cannot argue with an atheist and be an effective witness for Christ. If you really want to spread the Gospel, it's easy. There are people all around you that are hungry for meaning. There are poor people around you who need a job, clothing, food, sympathy, etc. There are people in prison who got there (the first time, not hardened criminals) because they are poor, uneducated, lack skills, and you can witness to these folks by sincerely taking them under your wing and helping them when they get out.

Why not spend more time helping those people, and less time trying to cite chaper and verse of the Bible to people who don't believe it?

Example: I'm a hard-core conservative Christian (Christ-follower if that word bothers you). If someone cited chapter and verse from the Quran, would it persuade me? Heck no. It would be a waste of their time and mine.

A lot of atheists are very intelligent scientifically and artistically minded people. They tend to have a deep appreciation for Nature and Culture. If you're sincere, why not befriend one and in making a friendship over time if there's a good moment, then share your faith? That's the traditional way to bring people to Jesus or at least sincerely share your faith.

Getting in their face and chest-thumping might make you feel better, but I'll bet it makes you feel worse too. In the heat of an exchange, you say things, often sinful things because you lose your temper.

Believe me, there are definitely times I see purported Christians who actually are teaching from Gnostic texts and so are dangerously perverting the Gospel. Rather than spend all my time arguing with them, there's Free Will, a law from God, and so it's up to them to believe in the Bible and Jesus. I likely will not convince them. They have to decide to believe in that.

Therefore it's better for me to spend my time on GLP doing other passions like prepping in my case and showing people how to prepare for a real disaster. See my 1st link in my sig for that.

The world is a beautiful place spoiled by discord and most of that is caused by humanity. By working together on other issues, we can understand each other and find some common ground in most people. Then and only then, friend to friend or acquaintence to acquaitences, can witnessing happen.

Stop arguing, and start friendships and witnessing, if the goal is to spread the Good News about Jesus.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


"Example: I'm a hard-core conservative Christian" and that's exactly why we have atheists... good going.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1485133

Well hard-core doesn't mean in your face. If you're an atheist, I understand that some Christians can be just awful to you and your beliefs. You won't get that from me. I'd rather talk about things like spirituality from a gentle understanding way, not a dogmatic fundamentalist way. Whatever my beliefs, I don't negate yours. You're free to believe whatever as long as it doesn't hurt people criminally.
jingo
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02/04/2013 05:53 AM
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hey guys are we all yidiots,yid or gent which are you,yid
control or DIY what do you want,the fate of the yid hun was
sealed when David dIcke/ edgar cayce opened his mouth on the
second centenary of the yid french revolution,what's the
difference between god and yid, god wants us to be free,
creates the habitat to be so,yid doesn't,the wrathschild
yids have created a world where everyone's dependent on
money created by them,to get it we have to work for them,
we're supposed to work for god not yid bloodsucker
middlemen,see abundanthope.net/nov7 PJ228 ch3/4,the curse of
the world is people who set theirself up in authority over
others,hierarchy of fear,13 million yids control/ destroy
the world to the detriment of the rest,time we marginalised
them,they have power over us because we give them our power
by working for them, hatonn says he'll work with us not for
us,he won't be our slave,we need to do the same,must be
good fun arresting folk,handcuffing them,making their wrist
hurt,locking them up,humiliating them in a cell,raiding
their premises,confiscating their property,charging them etc
,interesting our yid government is the biggest perpetrator
of crime: killing people/ animals,flooding the country with
drugs,producing toxic food/water/air/pharmaceuticals,
indoctrinating the populace with propaganda instead of truth
etc, god determines the law not yids,see phoenix journal 27,
the nile valley is a fertile plain because it floods once a
year,you don't mess with nature,it's god at work,thanks to
the yid antichrist the planet's irreparable,interesting the
queen is a double,the british empire is the yid empire,they
control banking/the media/governments etc,start all the wars
,pollute/ destroy the planet/ us,see protocols of the
learned elders of zion,we work for yids for yid money/
vouchers to buy yid goods,all we've got to do is WITHDRAW
our manpower,their corporations including government will
collapse,then we can get on with living instead of slaving,
see ringingcedars.com, everyone selfsufficient,each
community decide its own fate, in accord with the laws of
balance,see phoenix journal 27, we don't need money/ sell
something to survive,look at other species,once there was a
firmament/ belt of vapour round the earth,like venus now,
protecting it from harsh radiation and maintaining a
constant temperature,resulting in lush vegetation/ food
everywhere,however it was ruptured causing the deluge/
oceans,fortunately it's being restored,see abundanthope.net,
then we'll have perpetual spring,the garden of eden/ aden,
help yourself,everyone selfsufficient,we don't need
landownership/ deforestation,permaculture not agriculture,
we don't need concrete jungle,all construction can be
underground or tree houses, eight billion annunaki have been
removed from inside the earth which is hollow, 1k miles
thick,the poles are holes, 1k miles wide,entrances to the
inner earth,see erks.org, we don't need fossil fuel,oil is
the lifeblood of the earth,the continents float on it,
electricity meters are C19th tesla free energy generators,
using magnets/ dipoles to transform high frequency energy of
the aether into low frequency energy,see cheniere.org,
people get ready for the cataclysm say your catechism,expect
TV announcements about the three days of darkness,maybe
feb19, see abundanthope.net/feb20 wave symptoms
BlavkRabbit

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02/04/2013 07:00 AM
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Existence of a "god" or not is not part of a religious discussion IMO.

In religion there is "one god" and if you believe in another "god" or if you have absence of belief, you are going to suffer.

Now, when you talk about atheists, you talk about the internet trolls that think they have absence of belief but they are just angry at(their own opinion of what is) god, right?

Because an actual atheist doesn't believe in what religions consider god. This doesn't mean that atheists don't believe in anything greater than us. For example nature is greater than us, we are part of nature, not nature itself.

About god, I have no belief in a god. Everything is what everything is, actions and reactions controled by no god but the actions and recations themselves. Although, I can't say I wouldn't be fancinated if we figure out that everything, included us was created by an inteligent species.

About an afterlife, fuck i don't know inquisitio
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 07:08 AM
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op should take his own advice


fuck religion
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 07:09 AM
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i mean, look what youve done. it was probably all quiet and now youve given them another thread
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 07:13 AM
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Let's get right to it.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.

All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".

How can I say all this with certainty?

BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.

No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.

Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.

SO--is there a GOD?

My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.

That's why I believe in God.

But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.

So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
fuckoff2
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


An experience does not experiential data make like yoda would say.

Also I don't see how you can possibly make the differation in;

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold.


And;
However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.


Both statements contradict heavily. Simply because the term God implies the Judeo/Christian definition of a god. You can't argue it's fine to not believe in any religion but then at the same time claim that it is not possible to be against a specifically defined Deity (through the old testament, new testament, qu'ran and the mormon bible). Your position just doesn't make any sense what so ever.

(keep in mind I don't really have anything against non-theistic deists, as their "beliefs" are so extremely vague you can't really have anything against it).
jj24seven

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02/04/2013 07:20 AM
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IMO I've seen situations that I believe (more than one instance) where only the hand of god could explain certian reasons. my own personal struggles, family and situations fixed as well.(30yrs+ drinker in family quit overnight, someone wake from coma, healed from depression <-that is a terrible state of mind to deal with, 10+ deaths in 1 year but i'm at peace in my heart, not suffering.
In my faith if i deny jesus, he will deny me before his father (which is why i think so many people get upset when christians defend their beliefs and it causes misunderstandings between one another) and i will always defend what i believe to be very real. alpha & omega, my name is written in the book of life.
my faith also teaches me not to judge (i try not to do god's job) so i respect everyone's free will and their beliefs. who they believe in and answer to is their bussiness. I try to spread the word of god but never by force. We don't always have the answers but when horrible life experiences such as a death in the family, i'm able to make peace within my heart just knowing i'll see my loved one again (just an example of my many reasons to believe)...
i read people say the bible has been messed with and changed...it's possible, so i pray and when i feel what's right in my heart, i begin to understand. it's all about your spiritual.
honestly, with all this good vs. evil out there in the world, it confirms to me that each do exist. I'm not perfect and i fall short everyday but i'm a better person then i ever was since giving my life to god. that i'm 100% positive about and give all the glory to god...
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 07:32 AM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Let's get right to it.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.

All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".

How can I say all this with certainty?

BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.

No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.

Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.

SO--is there a GOD?

My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.

That's why I believe in God.

But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.

So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
fuckoff2
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


Before getting angry with those trapped in their 'opinions' of the mind, please consider that what you 'feel' to be 'real' could be simply your own MIND. Careful, as the MIND is a programmed 'trick'.

For you to then 'believe' in God based upon your own mind would be as trapped in a 'belief' system as the atheists and believers you hurl you last line of hate towards.

What is provable? The physical - since the mind is NOT real.

peace



.
Lisa*Lisa

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02/04/2013 07:39 AM

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Sorry OP, Jesus's words and His opinion trumps yours.

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Matthew 4:19 ""Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

hf
Have You Accepted Jesus As Your Savior Yet? What Are You Waiting For?

____________________________


"Tell them, I love them" - Jesus Christ

"If love were a tree, compassion would be its fruit." - unknown
____________________________

A dear friend's website [link to www.savemenowjesus.com]

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Do you have questions about God or need a friend to talk to? Email me at LisaLovesJesus7@gmail.com
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2 Corinthians 12:9 - "Each time he said, "My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness." So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me."

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One of the greatest things you can do for God is to show love to His other kids.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 08:00 AM
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What I cannot get my head around is, if there is a God, and I don't know if there is or not, where did (S)he originate from?

In our perception of reality, everything has a beginning point and an end point, surely if you go back for long enough, at what point did God appear? Indeed How did God appear? How did anything and everything get started in the first place?

Sorry I got a headache just thinking about it

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