Quoting: Adventus Domini Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid
... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33674751
I've already won.
That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either
The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class.
I am sorry if I missed it... I am interested in seeing this proof...
As posted before:Is there evidence of God?
Science is required to assume things to clarify a picture of what is in the natural world. They take the present, measurable data, and apply assumptions that resolve conflicts in the data set. So here are some puzzling facts about life that create conflict in the evolutionary data set.The Cell
: Evolution explains the transition between life forms. Evolution requires a cell that already has the built in capacity to reproduce itself. So how did we get a cell?Constants in Nature
: Evolution depends on constants being in place -- our existence here is dependent upon and extremely fine-tuned Universe.Evil
: Evolution cannot explain the depth of human evil. Evolution presumes cruelty and harshness, but it is out of necessity. So how do you explain this human evil that far exceeds necessity and reaches depths that are unfathomable?Rationality
: Evolution cannot account for rationality because evolution says we are programmed in the world to survive and reproduce. Our minds are organs of survival. They are not organs of truth. So if we believe in rationality we require something outside of evolution to account for that.Morality
: Evolution cannot account for morality -- from the little things, to deeds of heroic greatness. Both the person who offers up his seat to an elderly woman to the person who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies – both are operating outside the scope of evolution. In both cases there is no advantage to be gained. What is the evolutionary explanation for morality?Art
: We sing, dance, sculpt, cook, etc., etc. We encapsulate our emotions into these practices to create something of meaning that provides no evolutionary advantage.
I ask you to consider the God explanation. Why do we have a cell that shows the structure of complexity? Because, the cell has been intelligently designed by an intelligent designer. Why does the universe show complexity? Same answer. Why is there rationality? Because those are characteristics of the designer. Why is the depth of human evil so deep? Because our lives are a drama in which good and evil are in constant struggle (the Christian story). Why is there morality in the world, or why do we all feel, even when it works against our advantage, a moral law within us? Because there is a moral lawgiver who gave it to us. Why do we exercise our creative ability in the form of artistic endeavor? Because we are created in the image of a creator.
When you put it all together, the presupposition of God resolves the errors in the data set. Suddenly the light comes on with respect to these mysteries I’ve listed above. It provides an explanation. Now, there may be a better explanation, but I have yet to hear one.Is there proof that Jesus existed and was who he said he was?
From: [link to www.gotquestions.org
] Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
Ok, the first part of this is, a very well thought out, and put together thesis...
The second part is based upon so-called historical fact...Of which I trust the least...