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Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?

 
Let us reason
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02/04/2013 01:37 AM
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Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Now this is a difficult topic for many, but an important one. Are your theological beliefs based on the words of the Torah and Yeshua (Jesus) or the writings of Paul?

Having studied many years trying to reconcile the antinomian and unquestionably gnostic slant of Paul, it is impossible to reconcile him as being thoroughly consistent with all previous biblically teaching.

I believe that there are many scriptures that give warning about Paul and that his inclusion in the bible still is devine in that an honest read allows followers to discern the real truth.

Yeshua warns of anyone who says he saw Him in the desert. Paul claims he saw him on the road to Damascus (in the desert). And his "revelation" of a new gospel and experience was a bit too much like Muhammed.

He claims to be an apostle, but he did not fit the criteria. There were already 12 (Judas was replaced). And Paul gave himself the designation as a 13th.

Peter was given the Gentiles as his responsibility. But Paul comes in and claims this for himself? Did G-d mess up His first appointment?

The questions go on and on. WHAT I'D LIKE IS OTHERS THAT HAVE ADDITIONAL SUPPORT IDEAS FOR THIS TO POST.

I know there will be plenty who want to defend the Pauline church viewpoint. But I ask that this just be a thread for compiling conflicts of the traditional church theology regarding Paul/Marcion and others that IMO have highjacked the true intent of the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Please be respectful. Thanks.
ANHEDONIC

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02/04/2013 01:48 AM

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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
I worship Peter, Paul, and Mary everytime I puff the magic dragon.

bonghit

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
Let us reason (OP)
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02/04/2013 01:53 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
cool2

Let is be known I am not without a sense of humor. So much for the respect the thread hopes. Lol
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 01:56 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Having studied many years trying to reconcile the antinomian and unquestionably gnostic slant of Paul, it is impossible to reconcile him as being thoroughly consistent with all previous biblically teaching.

 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


The only reason the Gnostic version of Christianity was dismissed was because a political group made a power grab to place itself at the head of what was then a growing popular religion, and so they destroyed the texts that didn't meet their political version.

Destroyed them. In fire.

Do you really trust politicians?

The gnostic version is the one that fits the historical data anyway (and anyway you'll find the same teachings in different metaphors in what actually was included in the bible, which that political group assembled.)
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 01:59 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Paul's real name was Saul and Jesus was actually Yeshu Ben Pandera
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:02 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Organized religion will lead you down a very dangerous road you don't need to worship a book or a temple or church or statue in order to know good. Good is in us all if you choose to find it. You are your own god on this planet. Know your mind. Don't be decieved
adx
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02/04/2013 02:05 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Jesus chose Paul to spread the Gospel.
Paul's original choice was to kill Christians, but Jesus stopped him from doing that, and made him spread the Gospel instead.


But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
-- Acts 9:15
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:10 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Jesus chose Paul to spread the Gospel.
Paul's original choice was to kill Christians, but Jesus stopped him from doing that, and made him spread the Gospel instead.


But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
-- Acts 9:15
 Quoting: adx 27282885


That's a common misconception. Saul and Yeshu never liked each other. Saul created Christianity, he used it for personal gain and spread many lies about Yeshu. For example, Yeshu never calimed to be "the Son of God" he actually calimed he was "the Son of Man."

The lies go on and on and on
Paradise Havona

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02/04/2013 02:17 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
I worship Peter, Paul, and Mary everytime I puff the magic dragon.

bonghit
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


bump
i get on this site... way too much
Taruwah

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02/04/2013 02:19 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Whilst the 'church' tradition is to remove Paul from its Tanack (OT) context, the reality is that Paul was an OT scholar and understood TORAH in its true context.

The problem here is that the Greek is just not subtle enough to 'translate' the Hebrew.

Each Hebrew verse has 4 levels of understanding, and this just does not translate directly into any language.

So Paul's words can be twisted into a Roman pagan context very easily.

A good example of this is the Greek word 'nomos' and its opposite 'anomos'. This word is used for Torah, for Talmud, for Roman law and for local bye-laws and anyone studying Paul needs to be very careful which sense of the word is being used, this includes Galatians and causes much confusion.

If you study the NT without a thorough understanding of the Tanach, especially the first 4 chapters of Genesis, then you will not understand Paul.

Adam became a god, he was able to define 'good' and 'evil' for himself and at odds with Yah's definitions. This is Paul's 'old man' and the "law of sin and death" of Romans. Men create religions from their own godship, just as Adam did when he accused the woman, and then Yah, of causing the fall.

Torah is the blueprint by which Yah created all things (see John 1), the bits concerning mankind were given to Moses as the pentateuch, but the whole TORAH was "made flesh and dwelt amongst us"

That "living TORAH", decended into Hades for 3 days and 3 nights (the ONLY sign Yehushua gave). Lucifer was unable to change TORAH to place himself as 'Yah', so Yehushua was 'spat' out (as was Jonah from the great fish (Dagon)) unchanged.

In Hades, Yehushua (Torah made flesh) was in the power of Lucifer, who tryed at this point to change TORAH/Yehushua and so set himself as Yah but failed. Lucifer had thus been tricked into leaving the Kingdom of Yah of his own volition, and could not return, thus he had to change tack. His new objective being to replace Adam as 'ruler' of earth.

To do this he creates 'Christianity, Islam and Darwinian Atheism as huge deceits to keep mankind subdued and away from the truth of Yah.

We await events.....

Last Edited by Taruwah on 02/04/2013 02:28 AM
Seek FIRST the Kingdom of YHWH and His knowledge of Good and Bad (righteousness) , for He says "My ways are not thy ways"
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:27 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
This Paul...

Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:41 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Remember everyone, be happy God put you in this time.
Very soon, when the world is at it's worst and Communism
comes again, you, me, every soul on the earth is going
to experience their Damascus moment like Paul.

St. Paul pray for us. rose rose rose
ANHEDONIC

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02/04/2013 02:44 AM

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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
cool2

Let is be known I am not without a sense of humor. So much for the respect the thread hopes. Lol
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


That's good because you've got to have a sense of humor to maintain some semblance of sanity during these times we in which we find ourselves living in.

hf

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
Taruwah

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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Torah makes the difference between intentional sin (that of Adam) and unintentional sin (that of the woman). The woman was deceived into sinning, Adam chose to sin.

A careful study of Leviticus shows that under Torah, the woman's sin can be forgiven, but the intentional sin of Adam cannot.

Yehushua resolved this situation, and this is what Paul is trying to explain in Galatians (and elsewhere). Because Paul is taken out of its OT contexts, Christians tend to misunderstand, and think that Paul teaches that TORAH is no longer relevant.

Many times in the new testament we are told that TORAH is still the criteria by which all will be judged, and those who think that TORAH had been superceded by 'grace' are in for a huge shock for this is a Satanic deceit. "I know you not" is Yehushua's reaction to those who do not keep TORAH.
Seek FIRST the Kingdom of YHWH and His knowledge of Good and Bad (righteousness) , for He says "My ways are not thy ways"
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 02:57 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
That is the same conclusion came to after many hours of study. Paul contradicts the real chosen apostles and Yeshua. I believe that is what the great deception is. Yeshua even warns about him in revelation. He comends the church that recognized false apostles and turned them away. The church he was talking to had turned Paul away. I forget now what church it was. Peter was really chosen to spread the gospel to the gentiles not Paul. There are many things that would leave one to think that Paul could very well be one of Santan's best deceptions on the Christians. Paul allowed people to believe the laws of God no longer were important and only grace gets you to heaven. Like James said countering Paul. Faith without works is dead. Yeshua didn't come to do away with the law he came to fulfill it and show us how to live it and set straight where the law had been corrupted. I don't mean to offend anyone. I hope all will study for themselves with an open mind for the possibility.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 03:08 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Now this is a difficult topic for many, but an important one. Are your theological beliefs based on the words of the Torah and Yeshua (Jesus) or the writings of Paul?

Having studied many years trying to reconcile the antinomian and unquestionably gnostic slant of Paul, it is impossible to reconcile him as being thoroughly consistent with all previous biblically teaching.

I believe that there are many scriptures that give warning about Paul and that his inclusion in the bible still is devine in that an honest read allows followers to discern the real truth.

Yeshua warns of anyone who says he saw Him in the desert. Paul claims he saw him on the road to Damascus (in the desert). And his "revelation" of a new gospel and experience was a bit too much like Muhammed.

He claims to be an apostle, but he did not fit the criteria. There were already 12 (Judas was replaced). And Paul gave himself the designation as a 13th.

Peter was given the Gentiles as his responsibility. But Paul comes in and claims this for himself? Did G-d mess up His first appointment?

The questions go on and on. WHAT I'D LIKE IS OTHERS THAT HAVE ADDITIONAL SUPPORT IDEAS FOR THIS TO POST.

I know there will be plenty who want to defend the Pauline church viewpoint. But I ask that this just be a thread for compiling conflicts of the traditional church theology regarding Paul/Marcion and others that IMO have highjacked the true intent of the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Please be respectful. Thanks.
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784







"Yeshua warns of anyone who says he saw Him in the desert. Paul claims he saw him on the road to Damascus (in the desert)."

Paul did not "see" Yeshua. He was struck blind. And he HEARD Him.

Additionall, Yeshua's warning in Matthew 24 against false Christs, etc... was in answer to the disciple's question about the sign of His coming, at the END OF THE AGE. Look for yourself. The entire chapter revolves around END TIME events.


"He claims to be an apostle, but he did not fit the criteria. There were already 12 (Judas was replaced). And Paul gave himself the designation as a 13th."

Apparently, you are having a difficult time differentiating between an Apostle and a Disciple. Paul was never considered to be one of the Disciples, who actually lived alongside Christ. He is not a "13th" ANYTHING, except in your mind.



"Peter was given the Gentiles as his responsibility. But Paul comes in and claims this for himself? Did G-d mess up His first appointment?"

Peter was never designated as the SOLE messenger to the gentiles. He was assigned a job by Christ, just as Paul was assigned a job by Christ. There are plenty of Apostles TODAY. And who is to say that Yeshua didn't assign them as well? Only THEY would know.

Sure, there are plenty of people who THINK they've been assigned to perform a certain task by God, who God did NOT appoint. In fact, there are more of those, than the real McCoy. But that doesn't negate the existence of real Apostles of the Lord. How else would the Gospel even be spread to throughout all the earth?
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 03:17 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Now this is a difficult topic for many, but an important one. Are your theological beliefs based on the words of the Torah and Yeshua (Jesus) or the writings of Paul?
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


All the words of Jesus? What about when He said that He brought us a new covenant? The new covenant can't be the Torah, because that is the old covenant.


27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(Matthew 26:27-28)
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 03:18 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Jesus chose Paul to spread the Gospel.
Paul's original choice was to kill Christians, but Jesus stopped him from doing that, and made him spread the Gospel instead.


But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
-- Acts 9:15
 Quoting: adx 27282885


That's a common misconception. Saul and Yeshu never liked each other. Saul created Christianity, he used it for personal gain and spread many lies about Yeshu. For example, Yeshu never calimed to be "the Son of God" he actually calimed he was "the Son of Man."

The lies go on and on and on
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16158284


"Do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

John 10:36
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 03:53 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Now this is a difficult topic for many, but an important one. Are your theological beliefs based on the words of the Torah and Yeshua (Jesus) or the writings of Paul?
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


All the words of Jesus? What about when He said that He brought us a new covenant? The new covenant can't be the Torah, because that is the old covenant.


27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(Matthew 26:27-28)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33650993


The new covenant doesn't necessarily have to replace the Torah.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 03:57 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Whilst the 'church' tradition is to remove Paul from its Tanack (OT) context, the reality is that Paul was an OT scholar and understood TORAH in its true context.

The problem here is that the Greek is just not subtle enough to 'translate' the Hebrew.

Each Hebrew verse has 4 levels of understanding, and this just does not translate directly into any language.

So Paul's words can be twisted into a Roman pagan context very easily.

A good example of this is the Greek word 'nomos' and its opposite 'anomos'. This word is used for Torah, for Talmud, for Roman law and for local bye-laws and anyone studying Paul needs to be very careful which sense of the word is being used, this includes Galatians and causes much confusion.

If you study the NT without a thorough understanding of the Tanach, especially the first 4 chapters of Genesis, then you will not understand Paul.

Adam became a god, he was able to define 'good' and 'evil' for himself and at odds with Yah's definitions. This is Paul's 'old man' and the "law of sin and death" of Romans. Men create religions from their own godship, just as Adam did when he accused the woman, and then Yah, of causing the fall.

Torah is the blueprint by which Yah created all things (see John 1), the bits concerning mankind were given to Moses as the pentateuch, but the whole TORAH was "made flesh and dwelt amongst us"

That "living TORAH", decended into Hades for 3 days and 3 nights (the ONLY sign Yehushua gave). Lucifer was unable to change TORAH to place himself as 'Yah', so Yehushua was 'spat' out (as was Jonah from the great fish (Dagon)) unchanged.

In Hades, Yehushua (Torah made flesh) was in the power of Lucifer, who tryed at this point to change TORAH/Yehushua and so set himself as Yah but failed. Lucifer had thus been tricked into leaving the Kingdom of Yah of his own volition, and could not return, thus he had to change tack. His new objective being to replace Adam as 'ruler' of earth.

To do this he creates 'Christianity, Islam and Darwinian Atheism as huge deceits to keep mankind subdued and away from the truth of Yah.

We await events.....
 Quoting: Taruwah


You're suggesting that the NT was written in Hebrew (perhaps even partly in Aramaic) and then was translated into ancient Greek? Can you support your claim?
I'd think that the problems started when the Greek text was mistranslated into English.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
"I believe that there are many scriptures that give warning about Paul and that his inclusion in the bible still is devine in that an honest read allows followers to discern the real truth"


1. God does NOT LIE. Therefore if it is "divinely included", you are stating that God accepts and sanctifies lies.  

2. God is NOT the author of confusion. You are stating that He is.

3. You are stating that He sent a false prophet, yet all of scripture declares that false prophets do NOT speak the words of Our God and that He does not send them. 

Then the Lord said unto me, the prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them...--Jer. 14:14.

Yet you want us to believe that a collection of writings by a supposed false prophet are "divinely included" which is tantamount to saying that He sent us a false prophet AND put the words in his pen to give us? 

If the epistles are lies of a false prophet/apostle, they cannot be by "divine inclusion". The epistles are either Truth by God's Will and revelation, or they are the lies of men included by men in our Bibles. 

Thinking this way is but MAN'S attempt at reasoning away the truth contained within them. It is your MIND coming up with a reason for believing the rest of scripture, because the truth is, if the epistles are lies placed there by man, then the rest of scriptures that you want to believe are truth could just be lies as well, collated by men. But no! no! our mind says, that can't be correct...then our mind reasons....how can I avoid that conclusion? Ah ha! The epistles of Paul are lies but they are "divinely included", never mind the truth that Our God is 1) not the Author of confusion, and 2) doesn't give false prophets the words they speak nor does He send them. . .Why don't you just conclude that ALL of scripture are but lies "divinely included"? Because this IS the conclusion that can be drawn from such a conclusion. See what human reasoning does? It justifies our own conclusions.

The truth of the matter is this: these are either the words of man or not. If you conclude that they are the words of man, and they are NOT, you are calling the Holy Spirit a liar. In which case, you are rejecting spiritual truths and wisdom from Him Above. Your MIND knows this, so it is seeking reasonings to reject these revelations and truths by sanctifying them as "divinely included" as some sort of test. They CANNOT be words of a false prophet and yet "divinely included". They cannot be words of confusion by Our God who is NOT the author of confusion.  If they are the words of a false prophet, then they are placed there by MAN. And if man placed them there, ALL of scripture may be nothing but a collection by men.

Our mind's reasoning can be a trap and snare. In your conclusion above -that the epistles are false yet "divinely included" - you've pushed aside His other truths to accept your faulty conclusion. How about trying to accept His other Truths FIRST, then you may understand that your conclusion is utterly false. Then you might just sit down, open an epistle, and pray to see that the Holy Spirit IS writing through Paul, that the revelations given to Him ARE BY GOD's WILL. And you may just see that any confusion is in your mind, and that any resistance that you have towards the words in the epistles may be in your OWN mind which probably signifies that your carnal nature needs to be rid of?
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 04:38 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Torah makes the difference between intentional sin (that of Adam) and unintentional sin (that of the woman). The woman was deceived into sinning, Adam chose to sin.

A careful study of Leviticus shows that under Torah, the woman's sin can be forgiven, but the intentional sin of Adam cannot.

Yehushua resolved this situation, and this is what Paul is trying to explain in Galatians (and elsewhere). Because Paul is taken out of its OT contexts, Christians tend to misunderstand, and think that Paul teaches that TORAH is no longer relevant.

Many times in the new testament we are told that TORAH is still the criteria by which all will be judged, and those who think that TORAH had been superceded by 'grace' are in for a huge shock for this is a Satanic deceit. "I know you not" is Yehushua's reaction to those who do not keep TORAH.
 Quoting: Taruwah


You are full of shit.
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Peter was given the Gentiles as his responsibility. But Paul comes in and claims this for himself? Did G-d mess up His first appointment?
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


Not true.


I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. Matthew 15:24
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 04:40 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Now this is a difficult topic for many, but an important one. Are your theological beliefs based on the words of the Torah and Yeshua (Jesus) or the writings of Paul?
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


All the words of Jesus? What about when He said that He brought us a new covenant? The new covenant can\'t be the Torah, because that is the old covenant.


27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(Matthew 26:27-28)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33650993


The new covenant doesn\'t necessarily have to replace the Torah.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1229586


Jesus was preaching its fullfilment, not replacement.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 04:47 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Paul was a murderous jew who i do not beilieve was an israelite but was decended from the babylonian talmudic priests or a edomite jew or sumsuch, bu not an israelite.

He was directed by his bosses to change tactics as murdering was not working.

His books made it into the bible because 50,000 jews lived in rome many of whom were rich and had much influence. Constantines wife was a jewess.

Many churches worship Paul instead of jesus. They are all good with the world because they had satans aproval.
4Q529

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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Now this is a difficult topic for many, but an important one. Are your theological beliefs based on the words of the Torah and Yeshua (Jesus) or the writings of Paul?

Having studied many years trying to reconcile the antinomian and unquestionably gnostic slant of Paul, it is impossible to reconcile him as being thoroughly consistent with all previous biblically teaching.

I believe that there are many scriptures that give warning about Paul and that his inclusion in the bible still is devine in that an honest read allows followers to discern the real truth.

Yeshua warns of anyone who says he saw Him in the desert. Paul claims he saw him on the road to Damascus (in the desert). And his "revelation" of a new gospel and experience was a bit too much like Muhammed.

He claims to be an apostle, but he did not fit the criteria. There were already 12 (Judas was replaced). And Paul gave himself the designation as a 13th.

Peter was given the Gentiles as his responsibility. But Paul comes in and claims this for himself? Did G-d mess up His first appointment?

The questions go on and on. WHAT I'D LIKE IS OTHERS THAT HAVE ADDITIONAL SUPPORT IDEAS FOR THIS TO POST.

I know there will be plenty who want to defend the Pauline church viewpoint. But I ask that this just be a thread for compiling conflicts of the traditional church theology regarding Paul/Marcion and others that IMO have highjacked the true intent of the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Please be respectful. Thanks.
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


First of all, if you "worship" Yeshua or Paul, you are a follower of Paul rather than Yeshua; who was not to be "worshiped". He was supposed to be believed for the Doctrine that he taught.

Secondly, if you 'think' Paul was a "gnostic", you do not have ONE clue about what Gnosticism is.

Gnosticism taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth' (see the Treatise On the Resurrection), as did Jesus, acknowledging the reality of the memories of previous lives (figurative described in Chapter 27:52-53 of the Gospel of Matthew); something that Paul specifically repudiates in 2 Timothy 2:16-18.

Michael

Last Edited by 4Q529 on 02/04/2013 05:41 AM
IAMIAM

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02/04/2013 05:43 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
You are brawling like drunken sailors in here.

Come have a drink.

Thread: Turning Wine into Water
Thread: Chains

Have you the strength to break them?
aqmah

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02/04/2013 05:52 AM

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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
i worship allah
IAMIAM

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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
i worship allah
 Quoting: aqmah


Then do not drink the water my friend,

it is poison.

Take the path of Fire.

Thread: Book of the Seven Seals
Thread: Chains

Have you the strength to break them?
RoxykinsIII

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02/04/2013 06:00 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
I do not worship in the same way most humans do. I do not believe in going to a church, as god is everywhere, all the time, not just on Sunday. I do not pretend my god has a name, he/she answers to many names. I go about life following one simple rule - Do no harm. That is not an easy rule to follow as harm can be emotionally. I just try not to do anything that I would not like done to me, and I try to do things for people that I would appreciate if I was in the same situation. I simply can not be part of an organized religion because they are tainted by mankind as a means of control. I also do not look down on others for their religion, I see them as another path to the same destination. Namaste, Blessed Be, Amen, all all other kind closing words.

Last Edited by RoxykinsIII on 02/04/2013 06:02 AM
RoxykinsIII
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Now this is a difficult topic for many, but an important one. Are your theological beliefs based on the words of the Torah and Yeshua (Jesus) or the writings of Paul?

Having studied many years trying to reconcile the antinomian and unquestionably gnostic slant of Paul, it is impossible to reconcile him as being thoroughly consistent with all previous biblically teaching.

I believe that there are many scriptures that give warning about Paul and that his inclusion in the bible still is devine in that an honest read allows followers to discern the real truth.

Yeshua warns of anyone who says he saw Him in the desert. Paul claims he saw him on the road to Damascus (in the desert). And his "revelation" of a new gospel and experience was a bit too much like Muhammed.

He claims to be an apostle, but he did not fit the criteria. There were already 12 (Judas was replaced). And Paul gave himself the designation as a 13th.

Peter was given the Gentiles as his responsibility. But Paul comes in and claims this for himself? Did G-d mess up His first appointment?

The questions go on and on. WHAT I'D LIKE IS OTHERS THAT HAVE ADDITIONAL SUPPORT IDEAS FOR THIS TO POST.

I know there will be plenty who want to defend the Pauline church viewpoint. But I ask that this just be a thread for compiling conflicts of the traditional church theology regarding Paul/Marcion and others that IMO have highjacked the true intent of the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Please be respectful. Thanks.
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


Hi OP,

I'm glad someone else has picked up on this point. I think this is why Paul continually had to defend himself and criticise those who think they are apostles but are not...

I don't understand how theologians can make excuses for who Paul is actually addressing is his rants against other apostles. They are obviously the original Jerusalem apostles who attempted to undo the wrong Paul had done all across Asia.

The Epistle written by James the leader of the Church is a direct refute of everything Paul wrote.

Did you know Paul had twelve 'apostles' as well?

Now, we wait for all the 'Christians' (Paul's own) to come and accuse us of all sorts of heresy...

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