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Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?

 
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 06:03 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Whilst the 'church' tradition is to remove Paul from its Tanack (OT) context, the reality is that Paul was an OT scholar and understood TORAH in its true context.

The problem here is that the Greek is just not subtle enough to 'translate' the Hebrew.

Each Hebrew verse has 4 levels of understanding, and this just does not translate directly into any language.

So Paul's words can be twisted into a Roman pagan context very easily.

A good example of this is the Greek word 'nomos' and its opposite 'anomos'. This word is used for Torah, for Talmud, for Roman law and for local bye-laws and anyone studying Paul needs to be very careful which sense of the word is being used, this includes Galatians and causes much confusion.

If you study the NT without a thorough understanding of the Tanach, especially the first 4 chapters of Genesis, then you will not understand Paul.

Adam became a god, he was able to define 'good' and 'evil' for himself and at odds with Yah's definitions. This is Paul's 'old man' and the "law of sin and death" of Romans. Men create religions from their own godship, just as Adam did when he accused the woman, and then Yah, of causing the fall.

Torah is the blueprint by which Yah created all things (see John 1), the bits concerning mankind were given to Moses as the pentateuch, but the whole TORAH was "made flesh and dwelt amongst us"

That "living TORAH", decended into Hades for 3 days and 3 nights (the ONLY sign Yehushua gave). Lucifer was unable to change TORAH to place himself as 'Yah', so Yehushua was 'spat' out (as was Jonah from the great fish (Dagon)) unchanged.

In Hades, Yehushua (Torah made flesh) was in the power of Lucifer, who tryed at this point to change TORAH/Yehushua and so set himself as Yah but failed. Lucifer had thus been tricked into leaving the Kingdom of Yah of his own volition, and could not return, thus he had to change tack. His new objective being to replace Adam as 'ruler' of earth.

To do this he creates 'Christianity, Islam and Darwinian Atheism as huge deceits to keep mankind subdued and away from the truth of Yah.

We await events.....
 Quoting: Taruwah


If Paul was a Torah scholar why did he misquote so many old testament scriptures?
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 06:06 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Peter was given the Gentiles as his responsibility. But Paul comes in and claims this for himself? Did G-d mess up His first appointment?
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


Not true.


I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. Matthew 15:24
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22924481


No, it is true. Peter was on the roof of the house and had a vision, remember? Do not call unclean what God has called clean. Then he went to Cornelius' household.
4Q529

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02/04/2013 06:21 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
If Paul was a Torah scholar why did he misquote so many old testament scriptures?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33558365


Scholar or not, Paul had NO Knowledge of the Torah, just like the rabbis of today.

If he did not understand that it is idolatry to worship a man as 'God', he had NO Knowledge of Torah.

If he did not understand that there is no metaphysical 'heaven' and 'hell' for rewards and punishments, he had NO Knowledge of Torah.

If he asserts the existence of an eternally-existent "spiritual body"--pagan metaphysics--he had NO Knowledge of Torah.

And, if he did not understand that the Torah implies the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'--as stated by Jesus in his reply to the Sadducees--he had NO Knowledge of Torah.

Michael
Raymantheheretic

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02/04/2013 06:22 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
"I believe that there are many scriptures that give warning about Paul and that his inclusion in the bible still is devine in that an honest read allows followers to discern the real truth"


1. God does NOT LIE. Therefore if it is "divinely included", you are stating that God accepts and sanctifies lies.  

2. God is NOT the author of confusion. You are stating that He is.

3. You are stating that He sent a false prophet, yet all of scripture declares that false prophets do NOT speak the words of Our God and that He does not send them. 

Then the Lord said unto me, the prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them...--Jer. 14:14.

Yet you want us to believe that a collection of writings by a supposed false prophet are "divinely included" which is tantamount to saying that He sent us a false prophet AND put the words in his pen to give us? 

If the epistles are lies of a false prophet/apostle, they cannot be by "divine inclusion". The epistles are either Truth by God's Will and revelation, or they are the lies of men included by men in our Bibles. 

Thinking this way is but MAN'S attempt at reasoning away the truth contained within them. It is your MIND coming up with a reason for believing the rest of scripture, because the truth is, if the epistles are lies placed there by man, then the rest of scriptures that you want to believe are truth could just be lies as well, collated by men. But no! no! our mind says, that can't be correct...then our mind reasons....how can I avoid that conclusion? Ah ha! The epistles of Paul are lies but they are "divinely included", never mind the truth that Our God is 1) not the Author of confusion, and 2) doesn't give false prophets the words they speak nor does He send them. . .Why don't you just conclude that ALL of scripture are but lies "divinely included"? Because this IS the conclusion that can be drawn from such a conclusion. See what human reasoning does? It justifies our own conclusions.

The truth of the matter is this: these are either the words of man or not. If you conclude that they are the words of man, and they are NOT, you are calling the Holy Spirit a liar. In which case, you are rejecting spiritual truths and wisdom from Him Above. Your MIND knows this, so it is seeking reasonings to reject these revelations and truths by sanctifying them as "divinely included" as some sort of test. They CANNOT be words of a false prophet and yet "divinely included". They cannot be words of confusion by Our God who is NOT the author of confusion.  If they are the words of a false prophet, then they are placed there by MAN. And if man placed them there, ALL of scripture may be nothing but a collection by men.

Our mind's reasoning can be a trap and snare. In your conclusion above -that the epistles are false yet "divinely included" - you've pushed aside His other truths to accept your faulty conclusion. How about trying to accept His other Truths FIRST, then you may understand that your conclusion is utterly false. Then you might just sit down, open an epistle, and pray to see that the Holy Spirit IS writing through Paul, that the revelations given to Him ARE BY GOD's WILL. And you may just see that any confusion is in your mind, and that any resistance that you have towards the words in the epistles may be in your OWN mind which probably signifies that your carnal nature needs to be rid of?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33653587

What you are missing here is that it is you/men that have designated Paul's words as divine. God certainly hasn't, the Bible itself hasn't as they bear the title epistles/letters as opposed to Gospel/truth, and Paul himself, if we're to believe him to be sincere in his devotion to Jesus, would have to scoff at the very notion his letters should be considered divinely authored Holy scripture.

Leaving aside for the time being the motivation behind Paul's letters or their inclusion any fault to be shown through them lay directly in giving over the authority of God to the mere writings of men. This is the crux of the problem with all religion. We are the ones to blame by handing over the authority of God to the writings, translations, and interpretations of men.

Jesus never put a single word on parchment while in the flesh. Four Gospels have been given not that we should have the entire account but so 'that by two or three witnesses being in agreement a matter will be decided'.

I know it won't happen but it would really help avoid a lot of needless repetition if those that feel compelled to enter this thread to defend 'God's Word' or Paul could somehow keep all of the above in mind before posting.

Last Edited by Raymantheheretic on 02/04/2013 06:27 AM
IAMIAM

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02/04/2013 06:22 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
If Paul was a Torah scholar why did he misquote so many old testament scriptures?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33558365


Scholar or not, Paul had NO Knowledge of the Torah, just like the rabbis of today.

If he did not understand that it is idolatry to worship a man as 'God', he had NO Knowledge of Torah.

If he did not understand that there is no metaphysical 'heaven' and 'hell' for rewards and punishments, he had NO Knowledge of Torah.

If he asserts the existence of an eternally-existent "spiritual body"--pagan metaphysics--he had NO Knowledge of Torah.

And, if he did not understand that the Torah implies the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'--as stated by Jesus in his reply to the Sadducees--he had NO Knowledge of Torah.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Thread: Turning Wine into Water

Care for a drink?
Thread: Chains

Have you the strength to break them?
tcs
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02/04/2013 06:33 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


(1 Corinthians 3)

Take heed to the Word or be found anathema damned
4Q529

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02/04/2013 07:08 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Leaving aside for the time being the motivation behind Paul's letters or their inclusion any fault to be shown through them lay directly in giving over the authority of God to the mere writings of men.
 Quoting: Raymantheheretic


The motivation of Paul?

To preserve the Jewish priesthood at ALL costs.

His doctrine of "vicarious atonement" shifted ALL of the responsibility for the crucifixion from the Jewish priesthood--for their rejection of the Teaching of Jesus that the Doctrine of "resurrection" is a Doctrine of 'Rebirth' (which is why the Revelation of John refers to the "synagogue of Satan")--to the Jewish people.

And what followed was several hundreds of years of Christian anti-Semitism--defining "the Jews" as "Christ-killers" guilty of deicide--culminating in the Holocaust.

Michael
MHz

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02/04/2013 07:23 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Paul covers the nitty-gritty details about how the bruise to the serpents head unfolds as was determined in Ge:3:15.

That means the rest of the book, all of the OT and the 4 Gospels and Revelation are supportive of the prophecy and fulfillment of the bruise to the heel of Eve's seed.

They are two different things that have validity and neither is to be worshiped as that is a requirement only after the two bruises are fully manifested into reality.

Last Edited by MHz on 02/04/2013 07:24 AM
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 07:35 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Peter was given the Gentiles as his responsibility. But Paul comes in and claims this for himself? Did G-d mess up His first appointment?
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


Not true.


I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. Matthew 15:24
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22924481


No, it is true. Peter was on the roof of the house and had a vision, remember? Do not call unclean what God has called clean. Then he went to Cornelius\' household.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33558365


The repentant gentiles being grafted in, not the other way.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 07:43 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
I "worship" neither.

I thank Mother Nature.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 08:40 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
i don't worship god, it makes me feel vain
adx
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02/04/2013 02:08 PM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Jesus chose Paul to spread the Gospel.
Paul's original choice was to kill Christians, but Jesus stopped him from doing that, and made him spread the Gospel instead.


But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
-- Acts 9:15
 Quoting: adx 27282885


That's a common misconception. Saul and Yeshu never liked each other. Saul created Christianity, he used it for personal gain and spread many lies about Yeshu. For example, Yeshu never calimed to be "the Son of God" he actually calimed he was "the Son of Man."

The lies go on and on and on
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16158284


No, it is not a "misconception."
Jesus and Paul could not have "never liked each other." Jesus chose Paul and called him to his task. They didn't spend time with each other aside from that in a man-to-man (Paul & Jesus) context.
Paul did not "create Christianity," the Jews who followed Christ as the messiah did. "Christianity" is just a word that means "attempting to be like Christ."
Jesus himself said "whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
Jesus Christ is the Lord God in the flesh come to die for your sins; that's why the sacrifice works and makes sense.
Paul knew that, and he was not a false prophet.
adx
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02/04/2013 02:12 PM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
Now this is a difficult topic for many, but an important one. Are your theological beliefs based on the words of the Torah and Yeshua (Jesus) or the writings of Paul?

Having studied many years trying to reconcile the antinomian and unquestionably gnostic slant of Paul, it is impossible to reconcile him as being thoroughly consistent with all previous biblically teaching.

I believe that there are many scriptures that give warning about Paul and that his inclusion in the bible still is devine in that an honest read allows followers to discern the real truth.

Yeshua warns of anyone who says he saw Him in the desert. Paul claims he saw him on the road to Damascus (in the desert). And his "revelation" of a new gospel and experience was a bit too much like Muhammed.

He claims to be an apostle, but he did not fit the criteria. There were already 12 (Judas was replaced). And Paul gave himself the designation as a 13th.

Peter was given the Gentiles as his responsibility. But Paul comes in and claims this for himself? Did G-d mess up His first appointment?

The questions go on and on. WHAT I'D LIKE IS OTHERS THAT HAVE ADDITIONAL SUPPORT IDEAS FOR THIS TO POST.

I know there will be plenty who want to defend the Pauline church viewpoint. But I ask that this just be a thread for compiling conflicts of the traditional church theology regarding Paul/Marcion and others that IMO have highjacked the true intent of the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Please be respectful. Thanks.
 Quoting: Let us reason 20621784


First of all, if you "worship" Yeshua or Paul, you are a follower of Paul rather than Yeshua; who was not to be "worshiped". He was supposed to be believed for the Doctrine that he taught.

Secondly, if you 'think' Paul was a "gnostic", you do not have ONE clue about what Gnosticism is.

Gnosticism taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth' (see the Treatise On the Resurrection), as did Jesus, acknowledging the reality of the memories of previous lives (figurative described in Chapter 27:52-53 of the Gospel of Matthew); something that Paul specifically repudiates in 2 Timothy 2:16-18.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Jesus absolutely DID NOT teach a doctrine of "rebirth" or "previous lives" or any of that nonsense.

The passage you quote - Matthew 27:52-53 - is about the dead rising from their graves, not about memories from a past life. There is absolutely no connection between that passage and any reference to past lives, and Jesus absolutely DID NOT acknowledge ANY reality of reincarnation.
danhenrik
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09/21/2013 03:52 AM
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Re: Do you worship Yeshua or Paul?
I agree with the author of this thread.Paul is at the least very dubious. For a time I accepted the general messianic idea that Paul is just misunderstood due to translational issues. I dont think so any longer, the discrepancies are to large. It starts with Pauls visions and contradictions of these. His visions are very ambivalent and unclear as is much of his reasoning (ie many neologisms and redefinitions, ie of "law", "fornication", "pollution to idols").Yeshua told us that there is only "black or white" according to following Yeshua. ("who is not for me is against me etc). Pauls unclearness in many issues disqualifies him here, without necessarily going into depth (a true follower of Yeshua says Yes when he means Yes). As a trained scholar of Gamaliel Paul must have been well versed in oratotry issues, so his unclarity and hard to understanding must be seen as intended technique-or he was not trained by Gamaliel.
At best Paul is a gifted theologian, but to claim his writings as scriptures is a dangerous heresy.
A page which i found very helpful in this is
www.jesuswordsonly.com

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