Can anyone explain why the religious are so obtuse mentally, to even think outside the box?

Isn't the very idea of science to 'discover'? And isn't discovery searching, learning, and learning from the searching of others whom you respect?

I believe in Jesus Christ. I am wise because I know that I know very little. I think that both science and religion actually support one another, and that it's foolish to separate the two. In fact, I believe that science is an attempt to understand the mind of God which, is the highest calling.

I believe the hate on both sides can and has stopped all true discovery because venomous agendas taint any real truth found.

I believe your statement above has demonstrated that beyond theory.

I think I recognize your posts from previous exchanges... Middle aged woman, right?

I have only recently in my life experienced OBE's while in the sleep/dream state. However one night I actually had the experience of being above my body in bed and I had conscious awareness of looking down on my sleeping body and then it was like I zoomed back into my body and I then awoke in bed with the feeling that someone or something had been looking down on me in my bed. I went back to sleep and it wasn't until the next morning that I made sense of what I had experienced and that was that it had been ME in the room that was viewing my body. The sensation of being outside my body and then quickly returning to my body gave me the false impression of there being a 2nd observer in the room. There is some suggestion that our consciousness leaves our physical body during the sleep state (but stays attached) and this for me may explain instances of 'sleep paralysis' and OBE's while we experience this state.

Have you ever stopped yourself and questioned the 'science' or 'biology' behind your OBE experience? You said it happened to you when you were younger so you obviously held a different level of awareness back then when you wrote it off to your 'brain'. For instance, if the eyes are the organs/light receptors by which we process light in our environment to create images within the cerebral cortex, how can the brain possibly mimic this experience in a different location and be responsible for creating instances by which you have awareness & visual perspective independent of the position or location of your physical body and your eyes?



I'm totally on board with finding natural or logical explanations for things. It doesn't sit well with me to just want to believe something that I can't find an explanation for. But our known science and knowledge is so limiting as a potential database for explanations because there is so much that we do not yet know/understand. This is one of the limitations of left-brain oriented cognition. You can only rationalize your perceptions based on what is known or understood to be 'valid' or 'true'. The left-brain does not allow for knowledge/wisdom that the observer is unaware of - because it only operates based on previous experiences & awareness.

For the record I don't care for the word 'God' because of the commonly accepted thought-forms & conceptualizations associated with that word which do not resonate with me. I do not believe in some separate, supernatural being with a male gender and human-like traits that constantly tinkers with and manipulates our 'reality' here and judges us by some unknowable standards upon 'death'. For me this creation we are experiencing was set forth to grow & evolve on it's own accord and without any outside interference and manipulation - we exhibit complete free will in our decisions and our choices. Coming to grips with this perspective explains (at least for me) why there is suffering and injustice in our world.

I feel it's far more likely that the 'higher power' that governs the Universe and higher dimensions of existence could in fact be the sum of all consciousness itself or the light (energy) from which the souls of all living things originated from. Remember in Terminator 2 when the Terminator would get shot and that silvery liquid goo would disperse and then coagulate & eventually to return to it's higher form? Maybe something along those lines. : )

There's a lot that I don't know and one thing that I do know is that I will never have all the answers I'm looking for while I am restricted within this limiting physical body so I look forward to the day when I will shed this physical vessel and find out what lies beyond this lifetime. My OBE experiences and my research into individuals exhibiting past-life memories has given me a firm foundation for feeling that there is much more to this physical experience we are having and to our true existence than meets the eye.

:greenkarma:

A preposterous statement to anyone seeking truth. Truth seekers must explore all avenues, excluding no possibilities. Doing otherwise eliminates any possibility of true discovery.

I can show you a video of a Shao-lin Monk throwing a sewing needle through 3-panes of glass. he says it is because he focuses his 'energies'. You say those energies don't exist yet, there is that pierced window.

You are quite delusional. You believe in Jesus, a man that no one knows his birth day, no one has ever seen what he looks like, he is not listed in any history book and there is not one shred of evidence for. You worship the sun, go to sun-rise service on Ishtar, celebrate the birthday of Horus on December 25th, don't realize that Virgo the Virgin is Mary, worship your god on SUN-day and on and on. I can't talk to someone like you. You obviously just want to believe in this fairy tale because you want to live forever. I don't...so sue me.

If there is not one secular person who wrote about Jesus while he supposedly lived, and Egyptian people were meticulous record keepers, and there is no story of all about their first born children killed, and on and on, that is proof positive that no man named Jesus ever lived. No one wrote a word about him until years and years after he supposedly lived. He was created from older pagan myths. You have to know that no man could be born of a virgin or be raised from the dead? You have to know that there is no star up in the sky that could lead anyone anywhere? You are too stupid to talk to anymore. I am going to bed.

I saw Chriss Angel walk on water and David Blaine did some pretty amazing things. Do they count? Or do you have to be a monk to do real magic tricks. Can I say "GULLIBLE."

Thank you very much for the thoughtful and very well thought out reply. I like the way you think. I think you could actually be correct but I don't know if I want you to be. I don't know why but I don't want to live on after this life. I guess that keeps me from searching further. When my precious dog of 15 died, I wanted to believe I would see him again. But I couldn't imagine it. I just couldn't. And in the same way, when I die, I just cannot imagine living somewhere else, in another realm, but that is not saying that I am correct.

I know there is a lot of things we don't know. I feel pretty damned stupid most of the time. I don't even understand evolution but I argue for it because I would rather believe in scientists because they are intelligent and went to the best schools. They have nothing to gain in what they teach, unlike pastors/priests who make a living by telling lies.

Do you believe in reincarnation? I guess that is another possibility. The thing is, there are so many possibilities that it limits me. I have to break it down to just one thing to believe in. I think I choose evolution. I wish I had an OBE and I would know it wasn't natural. I mean, I would know it wasn't a part of a dream or a drug apparition. I have had things happen to me that are very hard to explain. I had a dead person communicate with me, I am pretty sure. He woke me up in a ray of white light that propelled me out of bed at the same exact time he committed suicide. I always believed in God but now....I just think that maybe it was just human thing. We were engaged at one time and we were very close.

To explain, I think that we are human and we don't know much. Maybe there is a part of us that could communicate with each other telepathically. Maybe that is what he did when he died. Maybe we just haven't discovered that yet and maybe it is something simple, like birds flying south. How do they know to do that? It is a natural thing. And maybe years from now we will all communicate telepathically but there still will be no God and no after life. I don't know. I am like you. I love learning new things. I am open minded about a lot of things.

In the end, I don't know but your explanation of this all makes the most sense to me. And you could quite possibly be correct but I still don't know. I am going to stick with evolution and the fact that we are modified monkeys. LOL...good night, Maybe I will talk to you again on here. You are a thinker. I like that in a person.

Utterly close-minded. I pity you.

That's what you believe about Jesus and Christianity. There are myriad documentations that oppose your point of view (smarter people than you have tried for literally, centuries), but honestly, your mind is made up. There's no point. This isn't a debate, it's a battle. You weren't looking for discussion, you were picking a fight. I see that now.

You baited people here by asking a question. It's been pointed out that you are as obtuse in your thinking as those you accuse, but rather than even remotely acknowledge that you might just be obtuse as well, you just load up your sucker punch.

You hate spiritual people. We get it. We believe you are a fool for discounting every possibility. In fact, we believe you are as guilty of being 'inside-the-box' as those you accuse. The difference though, is this:

We don't hate you. Perhaps we do not have as much reverence for your evolution-god as you do, but we don't hate you for it. You can't say the same and that's a shame. Because life's too short to walk around with all that hate.

Last Edited by Subway Prophets on 02/09/2013 03:27 AM

I have to run and go shovel some snow but I would love to continue this interesting discussion.

I'll reply in a couple hours if you would care to check this thread again tomorrow.

Okay, I am going to bed. I will check this out in the morning. Hope you don't have too much snow.

Okay, I am going to bed. I will check this out in the morning. Hope you don't have too much snow.

I am guided by my inherent/instinctual common sense. LIFE and the living of it teaches me all I need to know about my words deeds and actions being prudent or not. Those not in the trap have zero difficulty in doing right by others first, and putting self second... kind of a universal code of conduct every single person is born with, but is quickly taught not to trust or listen to...because you are taught to believe you arrived on the planet flawed, damned and a worthless sinner...before we know what we are doing we are taught by our elders you are only "good" if you let a man made religion to be your guide... no thanks!

I am guided by my inherent/instinctual common sense. LIFE and the living of it teaches me all I need to know about my words deeds and actions being prudent or not. Those not in the trap have zero difficulty in doing right by others first, and putting self second... kind of a universal code of conduct every single person is born with, but is quickly taught not to trust or listen to...because you are taught to believe you arrived on the planet flawed, damned and a worthless sinner...before we know what we are doing we are taught by our elders you are only "good" if you let a man made religion to be your guide... no thanks!

Sorry that you feel this way. I don't hate spiritual people at all. I love thinkers. I don't like the Bible. I don't hate people. I don't like the character of God in the Bible because he is a baby killer and you should not like him either, if you have any morals, that is.

But I am the most open minded person you would ever want to meet. I don't discount things like reincarnation, alien seeding, or an impersonal god. I do discount things like the Bible because the book sounds like a demented fairy tale. I never did believe in Jack and The Beanstalk or fairy tales as a kid. I always knew they were just stories but I am surrounded by people who think this shit is real. It is like studio wrestling. YOu have these people who tell you it is real, you know it isn't, but they insist that it is. You are the one that is closed minded.

If you can prove that this Jesus figure existed, which you can't, then I would listen. Unfortunately, you don't have truth on your side. I am going to bed now. I wish you the best, I do not hate you or anyone. And I hope you have a restful sleep.

I've no intention of trying. There'd be no point anyway. I don't like being labeled a Christian FWIW, I believe in Christ but I look for one beyond what the church has established.

Anyway, I wish you the best. I don't agree that you have truth on your side. I think rather we each have a mix of truth and bunk on our sides, and the real truth is found when we each peel off the bunk and combine what's real.

I've noticed your conversation with Anhedonic and I'm intrigued. Because I also believe in the power of the human machine. See? We do have common ground. We just disagree on who built it. In fact I was intrigued enough in an omnibus of human consciousness that it is the subject of one of my novels (I write fiction, no I'm not famous).

Anyway, rest well.

Last Edited by Subway Prophets on 02/09/2013 04:01 AM

ure its easy,we all of us are mortal,but the religious belive that if they have faith they will live forever,how good would that be.sorry that is not going to happen as i have never met anyone who has come back from the dead,,and dont want to.the are zombies!!

Because everything is so shitty they want to believe in the good, hope,peace, etc, the state of mind brings peace. Let it be.

To know the truth hurts, some can not go there do to them not handling the harsh reality of the real world we are currently in, so holding onto the word of god is all some people have to get them through this world.

Who sold the christians on the idea that if someone is an "un-believer"... or as christians like to phrase it, "damned to burn in hell", that same hell bound person MUST believe in evolution???

I slept through evolution day in science class... I have no idea what that theory is all about...

like many/most recovering christians that I know, evolution is something you might give a shit about if you like science... I have never paid much attention to the theory and it truly has no bearing on my life. Same goes for labeling persons like me with Atheist. Truly free minded people don't care for or need to label themselves or others.

so, your leap from if you don't worship sky god and his virgin born only son you must therefore believe in evolution, is ridiculous...silly... sad.

The answer to the OP's question is artfully answered by the words of all the professing christians that have posted replies.

crazy deep programming has rendered them helpless and they experience cognitive dissonance when the foundation for their dogmas and faith is exposed to the light of truth & logic and that pesky thing called critical thinking is pointed in the direction of their faith in the almighty sky god.

they are the way they are for the sake of SELF PRESERVATION.

Do not be prideful, believing you are smarter than the
first Christians. They would know when Our Lord was
born and do you think it an important enough date
to share? Yes.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~


..."The first good reason to accept December 25 is because of March 25. Traditionally, the Feast of the Assumption was held in higher regard than the Nativity, since the Annunciation is when The Word first became Incarnate. Naturally, this would mean that 9 months later the Nativity would take place. Thus, December 25 comes about by the simple fact that the Annunciation was the anchor point. Great minds have pointed out that March 25 carries its own significance, with it being a date that Passover has fallen on as well the date in which some Jews consider the first day of Creation.

The second good reason to accept December 25 is a bit more involved to explain, but I'll do my best. The basic argument looks something like this: We know that Jesus had a public ministry of 3.5 years and that He died on the 15th of the Jewish month of Nisan (basically late March). If you count backwards the 3.5 years, which are 42 Jewish months, this puts you at November 8. In Luke 3 we are told that Jesus was baptized on the cusp of turning 30, which is when a Jew became a 'man' and could teach. Since His Baptism was followed by 40 days in the desert and 7 days of temptation, then adding 47 days to November 8 puts us at December 25, which makes sense because it means Jesus had no further 'prerequisites' stopping Him from immediately beginning His public work (e.g. calling the Apostles) the moment He became of age."

[link to www.catholicnick.blogspot.com]

Wow... went to bed and woke up to see exactly what I expected from my primary antagonist: that I "ran away". But I was glad to see that there are so many capable opponents against atheism here as well, and the thread was in good hands during the night. However, I only spot-checked and didn't read every post. But it does appear that at this point it will just keep going in circles, as expected of every Christian-bait thread.

FWIW:

(Be sure to read the description first, please.)

Perhaps you should find out what the verb calibrate means, first. It is not flawed reasoning. Making assumptions about things is flawed reasoning. You prove this well. Nobody said anything about pretending anything. The point is, it doesn't matter how many markings are on your special thermometer, if you only look in one range, 50-100 in the example, you're a twit. This is what the anti-religious do. Yes, as I'm sure you're thinking, there are some religious people who do the same thing; however, I have never met somebody who was anti-religious and open-minded enough to look outside their accepted parameters for what is right, true, or correct. Believing scientific "fact", which has several times been proven wrong when challenged properly, simply because some "respected" scientist says it's a fact, is nothing different than what the religious do in some cases.

How many of you anti-religious have gone and validated, for yourselves, the things you hold true? Have you done the math on things? Have you run your own personal studies? Who cares what some dude's study says? It could be flawed. Prove it's true. No, peer review doesn't prove things to be true. It means that under the same conditions, it is true most of the time. Taken out of the lab, most things fall apart. Gravity is great at this. For all the knowledge there is, you still can't figure out every detail of little old gravity, huh? Yet you know for sure God isn't there. Simply foolishness. There is so much arrogance among the anti-religious it's pathetic. And 99 percent of you only repeat what you hear others say, yet have no actual proof of any of it. "OMG! Dude has three doctorate degrees?! I shall henceforth believe everything he says without question and repeat it verbatim for generations to come!" You're all guilty of that which you accuse the religious of; blind faith in another man's words with no proof for yourselves. Reading things in Nature or the latest Dawkins' tirade doesn't count as proof, either. Take your own advice: Grow up, please, do the world a favor.

So, as I say when people like you come on here spouting your opinions about this and that: What is your truth? If you are criticizing me for coming to some conclusion about what I believe, then where are you on this scale? Are you closer to Christianity or evolution, for example.

I never said that I know everything. If you would read my posts you would see that I actually don't know what to believe. I don't know pure truth, but then neither do you. You haven't a clue. You are just waiting around, waiting for someone to come to some conclusion as to what the purpose of all this is. Well, there comes a time to grow up and come to some conclusion about what you actually think is truth.

I DO appreciate scientists and the like because I feel they have a very high intelligence. And most of them are constantly learning new things, things that people like me and you would probably never understand. I like to take their theories and opinions seriously because I think they work very hard to come up with their ideas. Christianity is like the dark ages. Who wants to believe that some God created man out of dirt and women out of a rib? Come on, that stuff belongs back in the dark ages of mankind.

So, I am much more inclined to believe scientists. Most of them are atheists. And I can certainly understand that. So before you spout off your mouth, like YOU know something, which you obviously don't, why don't you fill me in on your fabulous ideas of how we got here, or is there some god, or what about the chaos theory, etc.? If you don't tell anyone what you believe, that leaves you free to come here and call names and be a general ass-hole. But if you tell us what you believe, then we can agree or disagree. Got that, kiddo.

You can't defend your own beliefs by attacking other people's beliefs. You can't claim that other people are delusional, stupid, blind, or fearful when you start off with calling them such (e.g. "obtuse") and never offer a shred of objective evidence. You wrongly presume that if someone disagrees with you then they must be stupid. That makes you both arrogant and obnoxious. And you continually burn straw men as if you do really believe you know everything when you clearly don't.

Worship priests in white lab coats if you like; act like a religious zealot if it makes you happy; start baiting threads if it amuses you. Spout off your mouth while criticizing others for what you do, if that makes you feel better. But don't ever think you've proved anything but that you're every bit as flawed and religious as everyone else.

And don't ask what others believe when you've spent all this time telling us what you have decided we believe. Some of us have seen enough and aren't going to play your silly game any more.

Got that, kiddo?

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 02/09/2013 01:41 PM

completely untrue and utterly opinion. Spoken (as it always is) like someone who has never studied or opened their mind to the possibility earnestly.

The greatest minds in the world didn't ever consider that they 'knew and understood everything'. They were smart enough to know that they didn't. This truth and logic you speak of is simply the new dogma. In fact, it's those who cling so desperately to the dogmas of science and hide their eyes from spirituality who are afraid to look into anything they may not be able to understand.

Super Saturated Air: Air that can hold more water than it can hold.

A long time ago science decided how much water could be held in air. Then they realized they were wrong. Admit it? Nope. Just create super-saturated air. Hubris.

Science is discovery. The things we 'know' today could be (and sometimes are) found to be completely wrong tomorrow.

All the things we consider mundane were once 'magic'. It's foolish to discount the wisdom and knowledge of the ancients.

I have as much right to attack your beliefs as you have to attack mine. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. You believe in God, Jesus, the Bible, then so be it. But you know, in your heart, that the words in that book were not divinely inspired. You know the book was written by men. If you too cowardly to face the reality of this, I feel deeply sorry for you.

You seem like a very bitter, very unhappy person. I wasn't actually talking to you in the above post but you butted in, injected your opinion, where it was not wanted or asked for. Who do you think you are? I'll bet you think you are someone special. And that is precisely why you cling to your beliefs. You NEED to believe in God because the thought that you might not exist after death is too difficult for your huge ego to handle. I can see through you.

I am not like that. I don't have an ego problem. I appreciate this life I have. I don't expect a big mansion in the sky and a god who loves me anymore than I would expect someone to hand me one million dollars. I don't feel entitled, like someone like you. You probably have a miserable life, so you need to cling to the erroneous idea that someone up there loves you. I see this as pathetic. Unless you are 12 or under, you are too old to have an imaginary friend.

You actually cling to a god who killed infants and babies. There could be no greater delusion than that. You should be so ashamed of yourself, but you are not. The reason for this is because your ego has grown way too large. If you die and rot in the ground, you will already have had your reward. You are alive. Make the most of it. Stop being a pablum sucking baby.

Explain why even the Jews would record Jesus in the history of Israel- especially the crucifixion, burial, empty tomb and everything. Where are you looking for evidence of Jesus?

Great example with "super saturated air"; it's exactly like "living fossil" as an example of unfalsifiable theories. It's worshipers have blind faith that someday "science" will answer every question, but theists have to answer everything right now or our viewpoint is deemed invalid.

Naturalism refuses to allow anything to exist outside of its tiny box, calling it fairy tales or obtuseness. And even when simple analogies are used to show the absurdity of such a narrow approach to the pursuit of knowledge, they despise and mock them. There is no reasoning with such people.

Look for a resurrection account too, especially with horus or osiris or mithras or whatever. You will see that if there is a resurrection account, it would be after Christ. Also, there is no justification of december 25th in the Bible. Jesus was actually born at a time when the sheep could graze in the fields (Luke 2:8).