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Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports

 
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 09:18 PM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
this always makes me tear up. tissue



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Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 09:19 PM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
I think who the God of Abraham really is has gotten lost in this thread - he loves us all and desires us to love one another and the most important thing to him is how we treat our fellow man and how we honor Him in our lives, period. The greatest of these is LOVE - all the law is summed up in this.
Adventus Domini

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02/05/2013 09:24 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
EDIT: To Salt

Fair enough. I'll let you know if you cross a boundry (I'm not shy) and I expect you to do the same.

1 Corinthians 14:1-5

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Paul is clearly telling us that Prophecy is to edify the Body of Christ and that speaking in tongues edifies themselves. What does it mean to edify oneself? It means the instruction or improvement of a person morally or intellectually. He tells us that that speaking in a tongue is communication with God and not to people. Which is more important? Prophecy. But that does not dismiss the edifying power of of speaking in tongues.

Last Edited by Adventus Domini on 02/05/2013 09:24 PM
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Adventus Domini

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02/05/2013 09:33 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
EDIT: To Salt

Fair enough. I'll let you know if you cross a boundry (I'm not shy) and I expect you to do the same.

1 Corinthians 14:1-5

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Paul is clearly telling us that Prophecy is to edify the Body of Christ and that speaking in tongues edifies themselves. What does it mean to edify oneself? It means the instruction or improvement of a person morally or intellectually. He tells us that that speaking in a tongue is communication with God and not to people. Which is more important? Prophecy. But that does not dismiss the edifying power of of speaking in tongues.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


I might add that Paul speaks of uttering mysteries in the Spirit. This is a wonderful description of a prayer language. He goes on to state that interpretation is only required in corporate settings, therefore edifying the church. This is not a requirement when it is personal.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Adventus Domini

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02/05/2013 09:47 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
EDIT: To Salt

Fair enough. I'll let you know if you cross a boundry (I'm not shy) and I expect you to do the same.

1 Corinthians 14:1-5

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Paul is clearly telling us that Prophecy is to edify the Body of Christ and that speaking in tongues edifies themselves. What does it mean to edify oneself? It means the instruction or improvement of a person morally or intellectually. He tells us that that speaking in a tongue is communication with God and not to people. Which is more important? Prophecy. But that does not dismiss the edifying power of of speaking in tongues.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


I might add that Paul speaks of uttering mysteries in the Spirit. This is a wonderful description of a prayer language. He goes on to state that interpretation is only required in corporate settings, therefore edifying the church. This is not a requirement when it is personal.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


However, to emphasise that it is a personal gift when used without interpretation, Paul goes on to instruct the Corinthians that in the corporate setting, decorum has to be exercised. This is clear in verses 6 and 11-12:

Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?



If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
SaltModerator
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02/05/2013 09:48 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
EDIT: To Salt

Fair enough. I'll let you know if you cross a boundry (I'm not shy) and I expect you to do the same.

1 Corinthians 14:1-5

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Paul is clearly telling us that Prophecy is to edify the Body of Christ and that speaking in tongues edifies themselves. What does it mean to edify oneself? It means the instruction or improvement of a person morally or intellectually. He tells us that that speaking in a tongue is communication with God and not to people. Which is more important? Prophecy. But that does not dismiss the edifying power of of speaking in tongues.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


important scripture. but, it is equally important to keep it in context for the subject matter AND the time. Tongues and prophecy were for the building of the church. It was needed to fulfill specifics. There are a number of scriptures that also talk about how long these gifts would be in operation and when they would pass away. once the church was completed (the formation) the need to speak in other languages in order to spread the good news of the gospel would pass away.

1 Cor 14 talks about the intent of utilizing the gifts. it is a lesson in how to use them properly. The speaking in tongues was for spreading the gospel to people. When Paul says that they spoke to God, that rough translation is saying that they speak the word of God, it is a connection TO God. not that they are speaking to God directly. It is a union.

1Cor14:6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.


When you understand the actual mechanical translations of the word "tongues" and all of its usages and form in scripture, you will see that it is defined as "languages"

in those days, foreign languages were called "tongues"

they are defined as HUMAN languages used to communicate with other humans. knowing other languages was vital to getting the church formulated throughout the world. without the ability to speak and understand foreign "tongues" this could not be accomplished.

The "groanings" or "utterances" that Paul speaks of is the gap that God/Holy Spirit fills when we do not know what to pray for. In other words, these unknown "groanings" are the unheard utterances that the Holy Spirit speaks that fills that gaps in our prayers when we do not know what to pray. It is not an audible sound.



Last Edited by Salt on 02/05/2013 09:50 PM
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
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He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
SaltModerator
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
wall o' text, i know.
Thread: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away

WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD.

Bible Reading: I Corinthians 13:8-13.

Aim: To show that tongues ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.

To show that prophecy and knowledge gifts ceased in 96 AD with the completion of the New Testament.

Introduction: If these three gifts ceased in the first century, then the modern tongues movement is not of God and should be rejected as unbiblical. The following exegesis of I Corinthians 13:8-13, is intended as a springboard to understand how the entire Bible teaching on this subject fits together to show that the purpose of tongues was a warning to Israel, and hence, ceased by 70 AD. It will be shown that prophecy and knowledge gifts were God's temporary means of revelation to the early Church until the completed New Testament had been given. Today, God speaks through His Word, not through some person giving what he calls is a prophecy from God.

I Corinthians 13:8-13.

13:8. "Charity never faileth; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (Greek: Katargethesontai); whether there be tongues, they shall cease (Greek: pausontai), whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" (Greek: Katargethesetai).


Note first that "Charity never faileth". This means that love will continue on forever. It is the only one of the 6 phenomena discussed here that continues forever. This means that faith, hope, prophecy, tongues and knowledge all stop, but when?

I Corinthians 13:13 tells us "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity".

We learn here that faith, hope and charity continue all through the church age. This means that prophecy, tongues and knowledge are not said to continue all through the Church age, but cease sometime before the second coming (rapture) of Christ.


Question 1: When does faith stop?

Answer: When Christ returns at the rapture to catch the church up to heaven.

II Corinthians 5:7. "For we walk by faith, not by sight". When we get to heaven we will see what we had faith in, so that faith will give way to sight.
I Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end5056 (Greek: telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls".This tells us that faith will end when we get to heaven, thus enjoying salvation or deliverance from the presence of sin. "Telos" means "end, result, termination, ultimate fate, completion in respect to time, or fulfilment".

Hence faith for us ends at the second coming of Christ.

Hebrews 12:2: "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher5047(teleiotes) of our faith."

Jesus Christ finishes our faith when He returns for us at His second coming, and we "reach our goal" ("teleiotes" in Greek) of heaven.


Question 2: When does HOPE stop?

Answer: When we get what we are hoping for in heaven. For example, if you are married, you are not hoping to get married because you then possess what you hoped for. Believers are hoping for Christ's second coming (Titus 2:13), and the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6). When we have what we hope for, then hope finishes. "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". Titus 2:13.

"..of the hope and resurrection of the dead am I called in question". Acts 23:6 and Acts 26:6.

"....hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:24.

Hope will only remain until we see Christ and receive our resurrection bodies at His second coming. Hence hope is valid only until the second coming.

Hence faith will be lost in sight; hope will be lost in reality; and love continues for all eternity.

I Corinthians 13:13. "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity". Because only faith, hope and charity are abiding throughout the church age, these three alone, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge must cease sometime INSIDE the church age. The time these (and the other temporary gifts) ceased had to have been before the completion of the New Testament.

Question 3: When do prophecy, and knowledge gifts cease?

Answer: "Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail2673 (Greek: Katargethesontai);......whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away2673 (Greek Katargethesetai)."

Meaning: "Katargeo" means to render inoperative, to make inactive, to be done away, to supercede, put an end to. With Paul it always denotes a complete cessation, not a temporary or partial ceasing.

Every occurrence of "Katargeo" in 13:8,10 is in the passive voice, indicating that something shall make prophecy and knowledge inactive.

Question 4: What are prophecy and knowledge?

1. The gift of prohecy in the apostolic church was speaking new revelation from God, to instruct and edify. Prophecy has a secondary meaning of forthtelling God's Word to teach and comfort the Church.

This is Bible teaching of today. Teaching replaced first century prophecy. A person knew, then prophesied. They were twin gifts.

2. The gift of knowledge in the apostolic Church was the ability to understand and know the mind and will of God. It was revealed truth, not learned. It is seeing as the Holy spirit sees. It was used to teach believers certain doctrines which had not as yet been written as part of the New Testament.

For example, Peter knew who Jesus really was. Matthew 16:17.

Agabus knew and then prophesied about Paul being bound at Jerusalem. Acts 21:10-12.

Paul knew the demonised damsel's mesage to be false. Acts 16:18

Such knowledge, like prophecy, was as authoritative as the scriptures in the early church.

Each of these gifts can refer to either:

a) an action - the exercising of the gifts in the church where he prophesies or gives a word of knowledge.

b) content - in Matthew 13:14,15 Christ quotes what Isaiah said 750 years earlier, which was now part of Scripture. When prophecy or knowledge became codified as scripture, they stood alone, no longer as the "act" of prophecy and knowledge, but as the "content" of prophecy and knowledge, now become written scripture.

3. The gift of tongues or unlearned languages, was similar yet inferior to prophecy and knowledge in that the tongues speaker needed to be translated.

Paul said in I Corinthian 14:18,19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue".

Speaking in a tongue and having it translated only allows the speaker to say half as much in a given time, as could a prophet or word of knowledge in the common tongue. Tongues were cumbersome verbage. Prophecy, tongues and knowledge form the subject of 1 Corinthian 13:8-13. Something is going to happen to each of them. None of them are to abide during the Church age, as will faith, hope and love. They are transient gifts.

13:8. "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease 3973" (Greek: pausontai).

Here "pausontai is used in an absolute sense, to cease, to come to an end".

["The Complete N.T. Word Study Dictionary", S. Zhodiates, p.1132.]

"Pausontai" is in the middle voice, indicative mood, meaning that the action of ceasing will come from within, rather than from outside.

"Cease" means that tongues would fulfil their function (of warning jewish people of coming Judgment), and render themselves obsolete, unneeded, ended. Literally it means "tongues shall make themselves to cease, or automatically cease of themselves." [A.T. Robertson Vol.IV, p.179.]

13.9. "For we know in part, and we prophecy in part". Since v.9 omits tongues, it would appear that tongues would cease before the removal of prophecy and knowledge. "In part" defines quantity, and the word "perfect" meaning "complete" is the opposite to "in part".

Knowledge of doctrine in the pre-canon period of the Church Age was fragmentary. The 14 mystery doctrines of this dispensation had not yet been completely given in New Testament Scripture. They could only teach from the Old Testament and by direct revelation from God via prophecy and knowledge. They knew in part, and consequently, they prophesied in part.

13:10. "But when that which is perfect (Greek: "teleion" meaning complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (Greek: "Katargetheseta" meaning to render inoperative). Prophecy and knowledge, both being ""in part"", will be done away with when the perfect shall come.

Question 5: When does the perfect come?

a) If it is the second coming of Christ, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge are allowable today.

b) If it is the completed New Testament Scriptures of 96 AD then prophecy, tongues and knowledge have all ceased in the first entury and are not for today.

Question 6: To answer question 5, we must ask another question: What is "that which is perfect?"

Answer: Several opinions are: 1. Jesus Christ at His second coming. 2. the perfected state of the believer at Christ''s return. 3. After the millenium in the new heaven and new earth. 4. the completed New Testament Scriptures.Consider these reasons why the perfect refers to the completed New Testament scriptures:

1. "When that (Greek: To Teleion) which is perfect is come"

The pronoun "THAT" in Greek, describing the perfect, is neuter.

Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.

2. "Perfect" in Greek means "complete, finished". The N.T. by 96 AD was completed and finished as God's revelation for this Church age. The completed N.T. canon of Scripture would serve the same purpose that prophecy, tongues, knowledge, apostleship, healing, miracles and other temporary spiritual gifts had once performed. Christ is never called the complete or finished one.

3. "Perfect" cannot mean Christ's return, becaue Christ's second coming is foreign to the context of I Corinthians 12,13,14 being mentioned nowhere in these 3 chapters. The subject of I Corinthians 12, 13,14 is spiritual gifts to the church in the church age. To extend prophecy, tongues and knowledge into the millenium or after the millenium is to miss the focus and context of the passage.

4. James 1:25 describes the perfect as the Bible, the perfect law of liberty.

The meaning of "perfect" in scripture can be determined by it's use in other passages of scripture. "Teleion", the "perfect" or "completed" was already in the New Testament when Paul wrote. James had alrady referred to the Word of God as the "perfect law of liberty in" James 1:25.

"But be ye doors of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your ownselves."

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:22, 25.

"Perfect" in James 1:25 in Greek is "teleion" the same as "perfect" in 1 Corinthian 13:10. In James 1:25 "perfect" clearly refers to the soon to be completed Bible, and this must be the same meaning in I Corinthians 13:10.

In James 1:22-25 the perfect law of liberty is the Bible.

Therefore, in I Corinthians 13:10 the perfect is the Bible.

5. James 1:23 and 1 Corinthinas 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in.

"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass." James 1:23.

"For now we see through a glass darkly; but then (when the perfect, completed Bible has come) face to face" 1 Corinthians 13:12.

As we look into a mirror to see our true physical condition of our face, so we look into the Bible as a mirror to see our true spiritual condition.

Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance.

Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance.

Therefore, GLASS MIRROR = PERFECT = the WORD OF GOD.

1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does.

6. II Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us.

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord".

The mirror/glass is a symbol of the Word of God. (James 1:22,25).

As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

We can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ ("He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son....". Romans 8:29) and go from glory to glory, by the Holy Spirit changing us as we saturate ourselves in the Word of God.

"are changed (Greek: metamorphoumetha) into the same image from glory to glory". The Greek word "changed" gives us the word "metamorphosis" which describes the process of an insect changing from an ugly worm into a mature beautiful butterfly. The changes come from within. So it is when we meditate on God's Word and in it see Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit transforms us into the image of Jesus Christ.

In the Bible we see the glory of Christ and are changed into His image.

13:12. In I Corinthians 13:12, only a few New Testament books were completed. The glory of the Lord revealed in the word was not complete. First century believers could neither see Christ, nor themselves, in the full light of God's revelation. They could only see darkly or dimly. However with the completion of Scripture, not only would the glory of Christ be revealed in greater fullness, but so would the believer's own reflection become clearer. Why? Because the believer after 96 AD has more Scripture to transform him into Christ's image.

The "perfect" is the opposite of that which is "in part."

Paul viewed his own writings as Scripture (1 Thessalonians 2:13) He knew that new revelation was being given and that one day it would cease. In the same way that God had completed the Old Testament, God would also complete the New Testament. Paul's use of the phrases "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (13:9) show that he is dealing with a partially completed Bible that was being added to by the Apostle's revelations from God.

1. The Second Coming is never called "perfect" in the New Testament, but the Bible is called the perfect law of liberty in James 1:25.

Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul......."

2. The completed New Testament fulfilled the same job as did the temporary gifts of prophecy and knowledge. Once prophecy and knowledge were codified (written down) as the New Testament, then prophecy and knowledge ceased. ie. New revelation of prophecy and knowledge ceased when the full N.T. revelation for this age was completed.

3. Christ's second coming is neither complete nor morally perfect. In the millenium, the sinner will die 100 years old (Isaiah 65:20). The millenium ends with satan's release from the pit and nations rebelling to attack Christ at Jerusalem. Not a perfect or complete situation at all.

4. Faith and Hope finish at the second coming (13:13).

Therefore, prophecy, knowledge and tongues, each not abiding during the church age, are said to end well before faith and hope ends (compare 1 Corinthians

13:8 with 1 Corinithians13:13).

Prophecy, knowledge and tongues end well before the second coming.

Prophecy and knowledge end by the coming of the perfect, completed Word of God in 96 AD.

Tongues ended by 70 AD, with Titus destroying Jerusalem and the judgment predicted coming on the jewish people for rejecting Christ's gospel. You don't warn people after the punishment has fallen.

5. The completed Bible is able to make believers complete by giving us all things that pertain to life and godliness. (II Peter 1:3,4).

We don't need new revelation.

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory (in heaven) and virtue (now on earth).

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises (in the perfect Bible) that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (changed from glory to glory)." II Peter 1:3,4.

This is obtained through:

1) the knowledge of Christ found in the Bible, and

2) by claiming the exceeding great and precious promises in the Bible.

Everything that we need today for life and Godliness to make us mature, completely equipped Christians is found in the Bible. Hence, the Bible is appropriately called the "complete Completer" for us today, the exact meaning of "teleion" in I Corinthians 13:10.

6. The completed Bible (all Scripture) can make the man of God "perfect" (Greek: "artios739" meaning "complete, sufficient, completely qualified; a synonym of "teleion"), throughly furnished unto all good works". II Timothy 3:16,17.

Here again, "all Scripture" making the man of God perfect, supports "perfect" in I Corinthians 13:10 as meaning the Bible, and not the second coming of Christ. Therefore, when the perfected, completed Bible comes, then the "in part" prophecy and knowledge shall be done away. This happened in 96AD when John finished writing Revelation 22:21.

Question 7: Why is tongues not mentioned in I Corinthians 13:9,10 as being done away with by the perfect?


Answer: It is because tongues had already ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem, being the judgment on the jewish people that tongues pointed to (I Corinthians 14:21,22). After 70 AD, there was no more purpose for tongues, so the tongues gift ceased forever by 70 AD. Tongues were not in existence to be done away with by "the perfect." Tongues had ceased 26 years earlier.

Those who think that the "perfect" is Christ's return and reject it as meaning the completed New Testament Scripture, do so because:

1. They have not studied every word, phrase, or verse of I Corinthians 13 in its context or

2. They are mentally influenced by someone with leaning towards Pentecostalism or

3. They are influenced by some interdenominational teacher whose decision about this scripture is non-committal so as to retain his popularity with both charismatic and non charismatic groups.

4. No scripture is ever produced in proof that the Holy Spirit did not mean the complete New Testament.

If knowledge ended at Christ's return, and if knowledge meant normal knowledge, then all Christians would be imbeciles in heaven.

Note: It is not good to say that God spoke to you and told you to do something, because if you are wrong, you lose your credibility. Instead, say "I felt led or burdened by the Lord to.....".

13:11. "When I was a child, I spake as a child (tongues)

I understand as a child (Knowledge, I thought as a child (prophecy is verbalised thoughts): but when I became a man, I put away childish things".
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Adventus Domini

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
EDIT: To Salt

Fair enough. I'll let you know if you cross a boundry (I'm not shy) and I expect you to do the same.

1 Corinthians 14:1-5

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Paul is clearly telling us that Prophecy is to edify the Body of Christ and that speaking in tongues edifies themselves. What does it mean to edify oneself? It means the instruction or improvement of a person morally or intellectually. He tells us that that speaking in a tongue is communication with God and not to people. Which is more important? Prophecy. But that does not dismiss the edifying power of of speaking in tongues.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


important scripture. but, it is equally important to keep it in context for the subject matter AND the time. Tongues and prophecy were for the building of the church. It was needed to fulfill specifics. There are a number of scriptures that also talk about how long these gifts would be in operation and when they would pass away. once the church was completed (the formation) the need to speak in other languages in order to spread the good news of the gospel would pass away.

 Quoting: Salt


You state: “There are a number of scriptures that also talk about how long these gifts would be in operation and when they would pass away. once the church was completed (the formation) the need to speak in other languages in order to spread the good news of the gospel would pass away.”

There are not. 1 Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10, but it is in context with love being eternal. Here is the passage:

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

One day, when the world is set into order, there will be no need for prophecy, and tongues – when the perfect comes. However, love never ends. This is beautiful.

P.S. I don't watch videos. I'd rather stick with the Word please.
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
EDIT: To Salt

Fair enough. I'll let you know if you cross a boundry (I'm not shy) and I expect you to do the same.

1 Corinthians 14:1-5

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Paul is clearly telling us that Prophecy is to edify the Body of Christ and that speaking in tongues edifies themselves. What does it mean to edify oneself? It means the instruction or improvement of a person morally or intellectually. He tells us that that speaking in a tongue is communication with God and not to people. Which is more important? Prophecy. But that does not dismiss the edifying power of of speaking in tongues.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


important scripture. but, it is equally important to keep it in context for the subject matter AND the time. Tongues and prophecy were for the building of the church. It was needed to fulfill specifics. There are a number of scriptures that also talk about how long these gifts would be in operation and when they would pass away. once the church was completed (the formation) the need to speak in other languages in order to spread the good news of the gospel would pass away.

 Quoting: Salt


You state: “There are a number of scriptures that also talk about how long these gifts would be in operation and when they would pass away. once the church was completed (the formation) the need to speak in other languages in order to spread the good news of the gospel would pass away.”

There are not. 1 Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10, but it is in context with love being eternal. Here is the passage:

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

One day, when the world is set into order, there will be no need for prophecy, and tongues – when the perfect comes. However, love never ends. This is beautiful.

P.S. I don't watch videos. I'd rather stick with the Word please.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


if you aren't going to read that data that i provide, then we can't have a discussion that will go anywhere.

in my above post, there is an enormous list of scriptures that specifically talk about when these things will pass away.
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
the video is a clearly presented study on this very subject. if you continue to pick and choose, and then close your eyes to things you are not comfortable with, then you will not expand your knowledge.
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Adventus Domini

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
wall o' text, i know.
Thread: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away

WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD.

Bible Reading: I Corinthians 13:8-13.

Aim: To show that tongues ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.

To show that prophecy and knowledge gifts ceased in 96 AD with the completion of the New Testament.

Introduction: If these three gifts ceased in the first century, then the modern tongues movement is not of God and should be rejected as unbiblical. The following exegesis of I Corinthians 13:8-13, is intended as a springboard to understand how the entire Bible teaching on this subject fits together to show that the purpose of tongues was a warning to Israel, and hence, ceased by 70 AD. It will be shown that prophecy and knowledge gifts were God's temporary means of revelation to the early Church until the completed New Testament had been given. Today, God speaks through His Word, not through some person giving what he calls is a prophecy from God.

I Corinthians 13:8-13.

13:8. "Charity never faileth; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (Greek: Katargethesontai); whether there be tongues, they shall cease (Greek: pausontai), whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" (Greek: Katargethesetai).


Note first that "Charity never faileth". This means that love will continue on forever. It is the only one of the 6 phenomena discussed here that continues forever. This means that faith, hope, prophecy, tongues and knowledge all stop, but when?

I Corinthians 13:13 tells us "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity".

We learn here that faith, hope and charity continue all through the church age. This means that prophecy, tongues and knowledge are not said to continue all through the Church age, but cease sometime before the second coming (rapture) of Christ.


Question 1: When does faith stop?

Answer: When Christ returns at the rapture to catch the church up to heaven.

II Corinthians 5:7. "For we walk by faith, not by sight". When we get to heaven we will see what we had faith in, so that faith will give way to sight.
I Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end5056 (Greek: telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls".This tells us that faith will end when we get to heaven, thus enjoying salvation or deliverance from the presence of sin. "Telos" means "end, result, termination, ultimate fate, completion in respect to time, or fulfilment".

Hence faith for us ends at the second coming of Christ.

Hebrews 12:2: "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher5047(teleiotes) of our faith."

Jesus Christ finishes our faith when He returns for us at His second coming, and we "reach our goal" ("teleiotes" in Greek) of heaven.


Question 2: When does HOPE stop?

Answer: When we get what we are hoping for in heaven. For example, if you are married, you are not hoping to get married because you then possess what you hoped for. Believers are hoping for Christ's second coming (Titus 2:13), and the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6). When we have what we hope for, then hope finishes. "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". Titus 2:13.

"..of the hope and resurrection of the dead am I called in question". Acts 23:6 and Acts 26:6.

"....hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:24.

Hope will only remain until we see Christ and receive our resurrection bodies at His second coming. Hence hope is valid only until the second coming.

Hence faith will be lost in sight; hope will be lost in reality; and love continues for all eternity.

I Corinthians 13:13. "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity". Because only faith, hope and charity are abiding throughout the church age, these three alone, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge must cease sometime INSIDE the church age. The time these (and the other temporary gifts) ceased had to have been before the completion of the New Testament.

Question 3: When do prophecy, and knowledge gifts cease?

Answer: "Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail2673 (Greek: Katargethesontai);......whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away2673 (Greek Katargethesetai)."

Meaning: "Katargeo" means to render inoperative, to make inactive, to be done away, to supercede, put an end to. With Paul it always denotes a complete cessation, not a temporary or partial ceasing.

Every occurrence of "Katargeo" in 13:8,10 is in the passive voice, indicating that something shall make prophecy and knowledge inactive.

Question 4: What are prophecy and knowledge?

1. The gift of prohecy in the apostolic church was speaking new revelation from God, to instruct and edify. Prophecy has a secondary meaning of forthtelling God's Word to teach and comfort the Church.

This is Bible teaching of today. Teaching replaced first century prophecy. A person knew, then prophesied. They were twin gifts.

2. The gift of knowledge in the apostolic Church was the ability to understand and know the mind and will of God. It was revealed truth, not learned. It is seeing as the Holy spirit sees. It was used to teach believers certain doctrines which had not as yet been written as part of the New Testament.

For example, Peter knew who Jesus really was. Matthew 16:17.

Agabus knew and then prophesied about Paul being bound at Jerusalem. Acts 21:10-12.

Paul knew the demonised damsel's mesage to be false. Acts 16:18

Such knowledge, like prophecy, was as authoritative as the scriptures in the early church.

Each of these gifts can refer to either:

a) an action - the exercising of the gifts in the church where he prophesies or gives a word of knowledge.

b) content - in Matthew 13:14,15 Christ quotes what Isaiah said 750 years earlier, which was now part of Scripture. When prophecy or knowledge became codified as scripture, they stood alone, no longer as the "act" of prophecy and knowledge, but as the "content" of prophecy and knowledge, now become written scripture.

3. The gift of tongues or unlearned languages, was similar yet inferior to prophecy and knowledge in that the tongues speaker needed to be translated.

Paul said in I Corinthian 14:18,19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue".

Speaking in a tongue and having it translated only allows the speaker to say half as much in a given time, as could a prophet or word of knowledge in the common tongue. Tongues were cumbersome verbage. Prophecy, tongues and knowledge form the subject of 1 Corinthian 13:8-13. Something is going to happen to each of them. None of them are to abide during the Church age, as will faith, hope and love. They are transient gifts.

13:8. "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease 3973" (Greek: pausontai).

Here "pausontai is used in an absolute sense, to cease, to come to an end".

["The Complete N.T. Word Study Dictionary", S. Zhodiates, p.1132.]

"Pausontai" is in the middle voice, indicative mood, meaning that the action of ceasing will come from within, rather than from outside.

"Cease" means that tongues would fulfil their function (of warning jewish people of coming Judgment), and render themselves obsolete, unneeded, ended. Literally it means "tongues shall make themselves to cease, or automatically cease of themselves." [A.T. Robertson Vol.IV, p.179.]

13.9. "For we know in part, and we prophecy in part". Since v.9 omits tongues, it would appear that tongues would cease before the removal of prophecy and knowledge. "In part" defines quantity, and the word "perfect" meaning "complete" is the opposite to "in part".

Knowledge of doctrine in the pre-canon period of the Church Age was fragmentary. The 14 mystery doctrines of this dispensation had not yet been completely given in New Testament Scripture. They could only teach from the Old Testament and by direct revelation from God via prophecy and knowledge. They knew in part, and consequently, they prophesied in part.

13:10. "But when that which is perfect (Greek: "teleion" meaning complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (Greek: "Katargetheseta" meaning to render inoperative). Prophecy and knowledge, both being ""in part"", will be done away with when the perfect shall come.

Question 5: When does the perfect come?

a) If it is the second coming of Christ, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge are allowable today.

b) If it is the completed New Testament Scriptures of 96 AD then prophecy, tongues and knowledge have all ceased in the first entury and are not for today.

Question 6: To answer question 5, we must ask another question: What is "that which is perfect?"

Answer: Several opinions are: 1. Jesus Christ at His second coming. 2. the perfected state of the believer at Christ''s return. 3. After the millenium in the new heaven and new earth. 4. the completed New Testament Scriptures.Consider these reasons why the perfect refers to the completed New Testament scriptures:

1. "When that (Greek: To Teleion) which is perfect is come"

The pronoun "THAT" in Greek, describing the perfect, is neuter.

Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.

2. "Perfect" in Greek means "complete, finished". The N.T. by 96 AD was completed and finished as God's revelation for this Church age. The completed N.T. canon of Scripture would serve the same purpose that prophecy, tongues, knowledge, apostleship, healing, miracles and other temporary spiritual gifts had once performed. Christ is never called the complete or finished one.

3. "Perfect" cannot mean Christ's return, becaue Christ's second coming is foreign to the context of I Corinthians 12,13,14 being mentioned nowhere in these 3 chapters. The subject of I Corinthians 12, 13,14 is spiritual gifts to the church in the church age. To extend prophecy, tongues and knowledge into the millenium or after the millenium is to miss the focus and context of the passage.

4. James 1:25 describes the perfect as the Bible, the perfect law of liberty.

The meaning of "perfect" in scripture can be determined by it's use in other passages of scripture. "Teleion", the "perfect" or "completed" was already in the New Testament when Paul wrote. James had alrady referred to the Word of God as the "perfect law of liberty in" James 1:25.

"But be ye doors of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your ownselves."

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:22, 25.

"Perfect" in James 1:25 in Greek is "teleion" the same as "perfect" in 1 Corinthian 13:10. In James 1:25 "perfect" clearly refers to the soon to be completed Bible, and this must be the same meaning in I Corinthians 13:10.

In James 1:22-25 the perfect law of liberty is the Bible.

Therefore, in I Corinthians 13:10 the perfect is the Bible.

5. James 1:23 and 1 Corinthinas 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in.

"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass." James 1:23.

"For now we see through a glass darkly; but then (when the perfect, completed Bible has come) face to face" 1 Corinthians 13:12.

As we look into a mirror to see our true physical condition of our face, so we look into the Bible as a mirror to see our true spiritual condition.

Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance.

Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance.

Therefore, GLASS MIRROR = PERFECT = the WORD OF GOD.

1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does.

6. II Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us.

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord".

The mirror/glass is a symbol of the Word of God. (James 1:22,25).

As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

We can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ ("He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son....". Romans 8:29) and go from glory to glory, by the Holy Spirit changing us as we saturate ourselves in the Word of God.

"are changed (Greek: metamorphoumetha) into the same image from glory to glory". The Greek word "changed" gives us the word "metamorphosis" which describes the process of an insect changing from an ugly worm into a mature beautiful butterfly. The changes come from within. So it is when we meditate on God's Word and in it see Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit transforms us into the image of Jesus Christ.

In the Bible we see the glory of Christ and are changed into His image.

13:12. In I Corinthians 13:12, only a few New Testament books were completed. The glory of the Lord revealed in the word was not complete. First century believers could neither see Christ, nor themselves, in the full light of God's revelation. They could only see darkly or dimly. However with the completion of Scripture, not only would the glory of Christ be revealed in greater fullness, but so would the believer's own reflection become clearer. Why? Because the believer after 96 AD has more Scripture to transform him into Christ's image.

The "perfect" is the opposite of that which is "in part."

Paul viewed his own writings as Scripture (1 Thessalonians 2:13) He knew that new revelation was being given and that one day it would cease. In the same way that God had completed the Old Testament, God would also complete the New Testament. Paul's use of the phrases "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (13:9) show that he is dealing with a partially completed Bible that was being added to by the Apostle's revelations from God.

1. The Second Coming is never called "perfect" in the New Testament, but the Bible is called the perfect law of liberty in James 1:25.

Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul......."

2. The completed New Testament fulfilled the same job as did the temporary gifts of prophecy and knowledge. Once prophecy and knowledge were codified (written down) as the New Testament, then prophecy and knowledge ceased. ie. New revelation of prophecy and knowledge ceased when the full N.T. revelation for this age was completed.

3. Christ's second coming is neither complete nor morally perfect. In the millenium, the sinner will die 100 years old (Isaiah 65:20). The millenium ends with satan's release from the pit and nations rebelling to attack Christ at Jerusalem. Not a perfect or complete situation at all.

4. Faith and Hope finish at the second coming (13:13).

Therefore, prophecy, knowledge and tongues, each not abiding during the church age, are said to end well before faith and hope ends (compare 1 Corinthians

13:8 with 1 Corinithians13:13).

Prophecy, knowledge and tongues end well before the second coming.

Prophecy and knowledge end by the coming of the perfect, completed Word of God in 96 AD.

Tongues ended by 70 AD, with Titus destroying Jerusalem and the judgment predicted coming on the jewish people for rejecting Christ's gospel. You don't warn people after the punishment has fallen.

5. The completed Bible is able to make believers complete by giving us all things that pertain to life and godliness. (II Peter 1:3,4).

We don't need new revelation.

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory (in heaven) and virtue (now on earth).

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises (in the perfect Bible) that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (changed from glory to glory)." II Peter 1:3,4.

This is obtained through:

1) the knowledge of Christ found in the Bible, and

2) by claiming the exceeding great and precious promises in the Bible.

Everything that we need today for life and Godliness to make us mature, completely equipped Christians is found in the Bible. Hence, the Bible is appropriately called the "complete Completer" for us today, the exact meaning of "teleion" in I Corinthians 13:10.

6. The completed Bible (all Scripture) can make the man of God "perfect" (Greek: "artios739" meaning "complete, sufficient, completely qualified; a synonym of "teleion"), throughly furnished unto all good works". II Timothy 3:16,17.

Here again, "all Scripture" making the man of God perfect, supports "perfect" in I Corinthians 13:10 as meaning the Bible, and not the second coming of Christ. Therefore, when the perfected, completed Bible comes, then the "in part" prophecy and knowledge shall be done away. This happened in 96AD when John finished writing Revelation 22:21.

Question 7: Why is tongues not mentioned in I Corinthians 13:9,10 as being done away with by the perfect?


Answer: It is because tongues had already ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem, being the judgment on the jewish people that tongues pointed to (I Corinthians 14:21,22). After 70 AD, there was no more purpose for tongues, so the tongues gift ceased forever by 70 AD. Tongues were not in existence to be done away with by "the perfect." Tongues had ceased 26 years earlier.

Those who think that the "perfect" is Christ's return and reject it as meaning the completed New Testament Scripture, do so because:

1. They have not studied every word, phrase, or verse of I Corinthians 13 in its context or

2. They are mentally influenced by someone with leaning towards Pentecostalism or

3. They are influenced by some interdenominational teacher whose decision about this scripture is non-committal so as to retain his popularity with both charismatic and non charismatic groups.

4. No scripture is ever produced in proof that the Holy Spirit did not mean the complete New Testament.

If knowledge ended at Christ's return, and if knowledge meant normal knowledge, then all Christians would be imbeciles in heaven.

Note: It is not good to say that God spoke to you and told you to do something, because if you are wrong, you lose your credibility. Instead, say "I felt led or burdened by the Lord to.....".

13:11. "When I was a child, I spake as a child (tongues)

I understand as a child (Knowledge, I thought as a child (prophecy is verbalised thoughts): but when I became a man, I put away childish things".
 Quoting: Salt




For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. (1 Corinthians 13:12)

Paul is talking about the other side. He is talking about Heaven. He is speaking of the final destination. He is speaking about when all things are perfect -- including himself. Immediately following, he says this:

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

In the perfect (Heaven), faith, hope, and love remain. Makes sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

P.S.S Trying to answer all your copy and paste information is not really fair. And it affords you the oportunity to NOT address my posts. I offered to go line by line through the scripture, not answer a wall of text.

Last Edited by Adventus Domini on 02/06/2013 09:56 AM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
it is a complicated subject that requires enormous data and scripture analysis. there is nothing out of context. it is plain.

we can agree to disagree.
but, i recommend you pray about it and open your mind (heart) to this teaching.

to say that tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge is still in operation is to say that the church is incomplete and Christ's death on the cross was not the accomplisment of redemption and God's divine word.

be careful in that line of thinking.

Last Edited by Salt on 02/05/2013 10:16 PM
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Adventus Domini

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02/05/2013 10:23 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
it is a complicated subject that requires enormous data and scripture analysis. there is nothing out of context. it is plain.

we can agree to disagree.
but, i recommend you pray about it and open your mind (heart) to this teaching.

to say that tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge is still in operation is to say that the church is incomplete and Christ's death on the cross was not the accomplisment of redemption and God's divine word.

be careful in that line of thinking.
 Quoting: Salt


I would suggest that you prayfully consider your position and your words also.

Have you taken a close look at the Body of Christ lately? Do you think it is complete? It certainly wasn't for the first century church. So then, when did it become "complete".

And to state that believing that the gifts are still beneficial today is somehow undermining the message of the cross and God's Word is ridiculous, illogical, and insulting.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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02/05/2013 10:27 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
it is a complicated subject that requires enormous data and scripture analysis. there is nothing out of context. it is plain.

we can agree to disagree.
but, i recommend you pray about it and open your mind (heart) to this teaching.

to say that tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge is still in operation is to say that the church is incomplete and Christ's death on the cross was not the accomplisment of redemption and God's divine word.

be careful in that line of thinking.
 Quoting: Salt


I would suggest that you prayfully consider your position and your words also.

Have you taken a close look at the Body of Christ lately? Do you think it is complete? It certainly wasn't for the first century church. So then, when did it become "complete".

And to state that believing that the gifts are still beneficial today is somehow undermining the message of the cross and God's Word is ridiculous, illogical, and insulting.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


oh i have.
it was a shock to me as well at first.
as i said, i used to belong to pentacostal/charismatic church years ago.

it is important to read the material.
if you arent going to do that, then we have nothing more to talk about. i have read your posts, now you should read mine. without doing so, there is no point in continuing. everything in the posts and study (vids) is clearly defined and explained. take some time to check it out.
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
whiteangel

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02/05/2013 10:28 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
I am sorry if I offended anyone on here. I was given a red ding because I was suppose to have been causing division. Again, I apologize and God bless. hf
"If voting made a difference they wouldn't let us do it" -Mark Twain
gatherhope
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
OP it is like a gift, a glimpse of what it is like to worship around the throne in heaven.
Adventus Domini

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02/05/2013 10:31 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
it is a complicated subject that requires enormous data and scripture analysis. there is nothing out of context. it is plain.

we can agree to disagree.
but, i recommend you pray about it and open your mind (heart) to this teaching.

to say that tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge is still in operation is to say that the church is incomplete and Christ's death on the cross was not the accomplisment of redemption and God's divine word.

be careful in that line of thinking.
 Quoting: Salt


I would suggest that you prayfully consider your position and your words also.

Have you taken a close look at the Body of Christ lately? Do you think it is complete? It certainly wasn't for the first century church. So then, when did it become "complete".

And to state that believing that the gifts are still beneficial today is somehow undermining the message of the cross and God's Word is ridiculous, illogical, and insulting.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


oh i have.
it was a shock to me as well at first.
as i said, i used to belong to pentacostal/charismatic church years ago.

it is important to read the material.
if you arent going to do that, then we have nothing more to talk about. i have read your posts, now you should read mine. without doing so, there is no point in continuing. everything in the posts and study (vids) is clearly defined and explained. take some time to check it out.
 Quoting: Salt


You can place your faith in man's word. I will choose to place my faith in God's Word. I have only one source.

You have chose to ignore any discussion beginning with 1 Corinthians 14:1-5. Rather, you have skipped ahead to your own agenda, including extra-biblical material.

So, here we part ways. Take care.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
SaltModerator
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02/05/2013 10:32 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
my faith is in God and God alone.
to suggest otherwise is just a nasty insult.

1 Cor 14 is not in context if you do not include the entire chapter, which i did. which YOU ignored.
good night.

Last Edited by Salt on 02/05/2013 10:33 PM
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 10:35 PM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
the video is a clearly presented study on this very subject. if you continue to pick and choose, and then close your eyes to things you are not comfortable with, then you will not expand your knowledge.
 Quoting: Salt


But I thought you just said that "knowledge" is ceased. "WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD."
SaltModerator
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02/05/2013 10:37 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
the video is a clearly presented study on this very subject. if you continue to pick and choose, and then close your eyes to things you are not comfortable with, then you will not expand your knowledge.
 Quoting: Salt


But I thought you just said that "knowledge" is ceased. "WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12966144


different type of knowledge.

the knowledge in my post talks about knowledge of the word.
the knowledge in the scripture sense from the thread is about the prophetic words of the Spirit. two different things.
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 10:41 PM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
the video is a clearly presented study on this very subject. if you continue to pick and choose, and then close your eyes to things you are not comfortable with, then you will not expand your knowledge.
 Quoting: Salt


But I thought you just said that "knowledge" is ceased. "WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12966144


different type of knowledge.

the knowledge in my post talks about knowledge of the word.
the knowledge in the scripture sense from the thread is about the prophetic words of the Spirit. two different things.
 Quoting: Salt


If you think prophetic knowledge of the word is done with, you are sorely mistaken, or perhaps knowingly leading others astray.

It is written, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 10:47 PM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
Remember folks..God is in his Holy Temple.... ;) ;)
SaltModerator
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02/05/2013 10:59 PM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
the video is a clearly presented study on this very subject. if you continue to pick and choose, and then close your eyes to things you are not comfortable with, then you will not expand your knowledge.
 Quoting: Salt


But I thought you just said that "knowledge" is ceased. "WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12966144


different type of knowledge.

the knowledge in my post talks about knowledge of the word.
the knowledge in the scripture sense from the thread is about the prophetic words of the Spirit. two different things.
 Quoting: Salt


If you think prophetic knowledge of the word is done with, you are sorely mistaken, or perhaps knowingly leading others astray.

It is written, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12966144


There is a difference between how prophecy and knowledge come to an end, and how the gift of languages (tongues) does, as indicated by the Greek verb forms used. (Prophecy does not mean forecasting or telling the future. The gift of prophecy in its true biblical definition means simply “speaking forth,” or “proclaiming publicly” to which the connotation of prediction was added sometime in the Middle Ages. Since the completion of Scripture, prophecy has not been a means of new revelation, but is limited to proclaiming what has already been revealed in the written Word.)

Prophecy and knowledge are both said to “be abolished,” the verb indicating that something will put an end to those two functions. What will abolish knowledge and prophecy, according to verses 9 and 10, is “that which is perfect.” When that occurs, those gifts will be rendered inoperative. The “perfect” is not the completion of Scripture, since there is still the operation of those two gifts and will be in the future kingdom (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17; Revelation 11:3). The Scriptures do not allow us to see “face to face” or have perfect knowledge as God does (v. 12). The “perfect” is not the rapture of the church or the second coming of Christ, since the kingdom to follow these events will have an abundance of preachers and teachers (Isaiah 29:18; 32:3, 4; Joel 2:28; Revelation 11:3). The perfect, therefore, must be the eternal state, when we in glory see God face to face (Revelation 22:4) and have full knowledge in the eternal new heavens and new earth. Just as a child grows to full understanding, believers will come to perfect knowledge and no such gifts will be necessary.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]

Last Edited by Salt on 02/05/2013 11:01 PM
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 12966144
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02/05/2013 11:19 PM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
...


But I thought you just said that "knowledge" is ceased. "WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12966144


different type of knowledge.

the knowledge in my post talks about knowledge of the word.
the knowledge in the scripture sense from the thread is about the prophetic words of the Spirit. two different things.
 Quoting: Salt


If you think prophetic knowledge of the word is done with, you are sorely mistaken, or perhaps knowingly leading others astray.

It is written, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12966144


There is a difference between how prophecy and knowledge come to an end, and how the gift of languages (tongues) does, as indicated by the Greek verb forms used. (Prophecy does not mean forecasting or telling the future. The gift of prophecy in its true biblical definition means simply “speaking forth,” or “proclaiming publicly” to which the connotation of prediction was added sometime in the Middle Ages. Since the completion of Scripture, prophecy has not been a means of new revelation, but is limited to proclaiming what has already been revealed in the written Word.)

Prophecy and knowledge are both said to “be abolished,” the verb indicating that something will put an end to those two functions. What will abolish knowledge and prophecy, according to verses 9 and 10, is “that which is perfect.” When that occurs, those gifts will be rendered inoperative. The “perfect” is not the completion of Scripture, since there is still the operation of those two gifts and will be in the future kingdom (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17; Revelation 11:3). The Scriptures do not allow us to see “face to face” or have perfect knowledge as God does (v. 12). The “perfect” is not the rapture of the church or the second coming of Christ, since the kingdom to follow these events will have an abundance of preachers and teachers (Isaiah 29:18; 32:3, 4; Joel 2:28; Revelation 11:3). The perfect, therefore, must be the eternal state, when we in glory see God face to face (Revelation 22:4) and have full knowledge in the eternal new heavens and new earth. Just as a child grows to full understanding, believers will come to perfect knowledge and no such gifts will be necessary.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
 Quoting: Salt


You seem to be contradicting your earlier stance that all knowledge, tongues and prophecy ceased in the first century AD, because now your copy/paste material says that these things will NOT pass away until the "eternal state." So which is is that you believe, they are done away with now or later?
Anonymous Coward
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02/05/2013 11:44 PM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
Sounds like mass hysteria.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20517650


It is.
SevenThunders

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02/06/2013 02:15 AM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.


 Quoting: Salt


Seriously? That has to be the most out of context and awkward interpretation of this passage I have ever heard. Don't just regurgitate proof texts learned in seminary, reason for yourself if it seems reasonable that the Bible, which is mentioned nowhere in this passage or even referred to as a 'perfect' coming could possibly fit this context. Especially when the passage is filled with references to Christ's return.

For goodness sakes look at verse 12
". 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. "

What is the then he is talking about? If it's not being with the Lord or the Lord's return then the passage makes no sense at all. Occams razor, the simplest explanation that fits the fact is most likely true.

I will bet that there is some noun associated with Christ's return, or the kingdom of heaven, that is in fact neuter. Perhaps it's an abstract concept, like meeting face to face.
Anonymous Coward
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02/06/2013 02:27 AM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.


 Quoting: Salt


Seriously? That has to be the most out of context and awkward interpretation of this passage I have ever heard. Don't just regurgitate proof texts learned in seminary, reason for yourself if it seems reasonable that the Bible, which is mentioned nowhere in this passage or even referred to as a 'perfect' coming could possibly fit this context. Especially when the passage is filled with references to Christ's return.

For goodness sakes look at verse 12
". 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. "

What is the then he is talking about? If it's not being with the Lord or the Lord's return then the passage makes no sense at all. Occams razor, the simplest explanation that fits the fact is most likely true.

I will bet that there is some noun associated with Christ's return, or the kingdom of heaven, that is in fact neuter. Perhaps it's an abstract concept, like meeting face to face.
 Quoting: SevenThunders


This is the falling away from Christ in Protestantism in regards to the subject of priesthood. The priesthood is male, it's not female. Since Protestants reject the New Covenant priesthood, it applies to their ministers.

Salt is wasting her time. Salt, give it up, seems like you've been attending seminary for years?

Our Lord has other things you can do. No women on the altar. Oh another, there is no altar in Protestantism.
Anonymous Coward
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02/06/2013 02:31 AM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
...


different type of knowledge.

the knowledge in my post talks about knowledge of the word.
the knowledge in the scripture sense from the thread is about the prophetic words of the Spirit. two different things.
 Quoting: Salt


If you think prophetic knowledge of the word is done with, you are sorely mistaken, or perhaps knowingly leading others astray.

It is written, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12966144


There is a difference between how prophecy and knowledge come to an end, and how the gift of languages (tongues) does, as indicated by the Greek verb forms used. (Prophecy does not mean forecasting or telling the future. The gift of prophecy in its true biblical definition means simply “speaking forth,” or “proclaiming publicly” to which the connotation of prediction was added sometime in the Middle Ages. Since the completion of Scripture, prophecy has not been a means of new revelation, but is limited to proclaiming what has already been revealed in the written Word.)

Prophecy and knowledge are both said to “be abolished,” the verb indicating that something will put an end to those two functions. What will abolish knowledge and prophecy, according to verses 9 and 10, is “that which is perfect.” When that occurs, those gifts will be rendered inoperative. The “perfect” is not the completion of Scripture, since there is still the operation of those two gifts and will be in the future kingdom (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17; Revelation 11:3). The Scriptures do not allow us to see “face to face” or have perfect knowledge as God does (v. 12). The “perfect” is not the rapture of the church or the second coming of Christ, since the kingdom to follow these events will have an abundance of preachers and teachers (Isaiah 29:18; 32:3, 4; Joel 2:28; Revelation 11:3). The perfect, therefore, must be the eternal state, when we in glory see God face to face (Revelation 22:4) and have full knowledge in the eternal new heavens and new earth. Just as a child grows to full understanding, believers will come to perfect knowledge and no such gifts will be necessary.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
 Quoting: Salt


You seem to be contradicting your earlier stance that all knowledge, tongues and prophecy ceased in the first century AD, because now your copy/paste material says that these things will NOT pass away until the "eternal state." So which is is that you believe, they are done away with now or later?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12966144


Prophecy hasn't ended. Heaven may fall silent at a certain
point in the Great Tribulation. God has been preparing
the world for years in the prophetic.
Anonymous Coward
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02/06/2013 02:36 AM
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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports


This is just your opinion. I respect it, but it is only an opinion. However, you may just be wrong. If so, the liberal use of the term "gibberish" may be found offensive by a power greater than both of us.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


it's not wrong. i believed the pentacostal lie early in my Christian walk. i strongly urge you to do your own research. it is completely false and part of a large cult movement. let me see if i can find some good reading material to offer you that might help. i'll be back...
 Quoting: Salt


I am a seasoned and educated Christian. I am devoted to studying God's Word. I will gladly take you to it line by line, verse by verse, chapter by chapter
.

Shall we start with 1 Corinthians 14? These are not my words/opionions, but they are Gods.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


God did not give the gift to interpret Scripture to every
person reading it, you would end up with a thousand different interpretations because of pride. Look at the
fruit of this heresy, you would start your own Church!!!


God gave the authority to interpret Scripture to the Church, she canonized Scripture in 382 A.D. Do you see
how God has planned this out.
Adventus Domini

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02/06/2013 09:40 AM

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Re: Holy Spirit really moved Sunday in Church any other reports
Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.


 Quoting: Salt


Seriously? That has to be the most out of context and awkward interpretation of this passage I have ever heard. Don't just regurgitate proof texts learned in seminary, reason for yourself if it seems reasonable that the Bible, which is mentioned nowhere in this passage or even referred to as a 'perfect' coming could possibly fit this context. Especially when the passage is filled with references to Christ's return.

For goodness sakes look at verse 12
". 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. "

What is the then he is talking about? If it's not being with the Lord or the Lord's return then the passage makes no sense at all. Occams razor, the simplest explanation that fits the fact is most likely true.

I will bet that there is some noun associated with Christ's return, or the kingdom of heaven, that is in fact neuter. Perhaps it's an abstract concept, like meeting face to face.
 Quoting: SevenThunders


Being with the Lord is clearly described in 1 Corinthians 13:12. Salt has accused me of not looking at scripture in context. However, I suggest that this is projection. In verse 12, Paul is stating that now we are imperfect and can only see Christ as in a "mirror dimly". But then, we will see him "face to face". Now we know in part, but then we will have full knowledge of Christ, just as we are known by Him.

The "perfect" is that state of being -- that state of full knowledge -- of seeing Him face to face -- of having full knowledge of Christ. And I guess, a state of being would be considered neuter.

And on that day, there will be no need for certain gifts. I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. Until then, we need to fully utilize what has been gifted to us. NOW, MORE THAN EVER!

Last Edited by Adventus Domini on 02/06/2013 10:16 AM
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.