Is gravity faster than light?

Lol thank you. Proud to say I provided the "correct" answer because I actually know the answer to this.

Probably the most interesting thread I have seen in months!

The fundamental particle that carries the electromagnetic force, the photon, travels at the speed of light.

The fundamental particle that carries the gravitational force, the graviton, also travels at the speed of light.

So yes, if the sun "disappeared" suddenly from the sky you would see its rays and experience its gravitational force for only another 8 minutes or so. After those 8 minutes expire, instead of continuing its orbit, the Earth would simply keep flying in whatever direction it was traveling the moment it stopped experiencing the sun's gravitational force.

Thank you for your input, truly. My mind takes walks, sometimes, and I wonder about a lot of things that I could never figure out because I stink at simple math. I enjoy reading about things like string theory and M-theory, but don't have the tools to tie everything together.

For instance, I was just wondering the other day, if it is possible our entire Universe is within a ginormous, incomprehensible black hole.

Or, wondering, in the past, if it was possible that our galaxies have super massive black holes in the middle because the black holes were there first...collapsed from the implosion of some super massive stars near the beginning of the creation period in the universe(?) And whether, all the stars and everything we see today traveling around these super massive black holes was brought to fruition because the elements were attracted to the huge gravity well and these black holes just danced around, sweeping up and gathering cosmic goodies.

And, how much does time have to do with gravity? I feel there is some sort of inexplicable link I can't...can't quite figure out, just feel they are related, somehow.

I'm gonna go watch some NOVA.

Last Edited by Junkyard Lily on 02/09/2013 12:06 AM

Gravity does not propagate. Gravity is merely a distortion of the geometry of spacetime caused by the presence of matter.

To ask how "fast" gravity is is similar to asking how "fast" a circle is...or how "fast" air pressure is.

The only way gravity "moves" is if the matter causing the distortion is moving. So in that sense...the gravity of the sun moves at the exact same speed as the sun.

There is no graviton, gravity is not a force, it is just a geometric distortion in the fabric of spacetime caused by the presence of matter.

Not really.

The graviton is a hypothetical....one that many people do not agree with.

Interesting you mention that. That's certainly what Einstein hypothesized, but most scientists now think quantum mechanics will prove him wrong. Gravity isn't simply a curvature of space-time - it too, like light, can be quantized into a single particle that carries the gravitational force.

Once we have equipment strong enough to detect a graviton (photons are 10^39 times more powerful than a graviton), we will be able to confirm that Einstein's general relativity provided breathtaking computational accuracy but was theoretically inaccurate.

Eh I don't know man the only reason it's status is still "hypothetical" is because it's so hard to detect. The Standard Model hasn't misled us yet and I think the graviton's existence is about as sure a thing as the photon's.

Plus, in keeping with the spirit of your quote, you know I gave much more of an actual answer that the Standard Model actually predicts than anyone else here. Give me some credit.

This is incorrect. No one has ever observed a black hole. They observe high energy events which they attribute (according to their models) to black holes.

[link to www.youtube.com]
[link to www.youtube.com]

Please reference any paper where a black hole has been observed directly, and not simply the x-ray, gamma ray or other high-energy outburst.

We often observe high energy events often. That does not equate to observing black holes. They are just the most popular hypothesis... So I guess you're right. Black holes are not theoretical. They are hypothetical. There have been no tests of black holes, and they are not falsifiable, so don't really qualify to be theoretical. (see second paragraph here -> [link to www.wisegeek.org]

Actually, I'm a bit wrong. You could say black holes have been falsified, as observational evidence has falsified predictions of general relativity:
[link to www.youtube.com] <- a bit dry, and some pronunciation issues, but this ex-Nasa guy shows why GR fails in a variety of ways.
And based on math:
[link to milesmathis.com]



Dark matter has problems too:
[link to www.eso.org]
[link to www.youtube.com]


The bigger question about gravity and light is really interesting. They have not defined what gravity is. There really is no definition of what mass is, so my guess is that we can't have a real answer to the question.

I kind of envision gravity as the road that light travels on right? So if the car is driving at c then how fast is the road? this question can not be asked.

What is the speed of gravity?

well i think we should clarify this, because there is possibly two different questions.

at what speed does gravity propagate, so if an object were either placed into a system instantaneously or removed from a system at what speed would the other objects "feel" the effects of gravity??

i don't find it logical to assume that gravity propagates at speed of light. that means that if two objects that are moving away from each other at the speed of light would not feel each other gravity? I have read a paper that estimated this at 200 times the SOL in space.

I think it must be a wave if an object appears or disappears but it must be way way faster than light

and what is the max speed of the road that is gravity?

well if black holes exist this should be a limit of space. if you could magnify gravity one point in space and repel gravity behind you what is the max speed or terminal velocity of gravity's effects?

space terminal velocity is also faster that light. light speed is the speed at which our instruments work so no kidding bottle neck bro. we need to find our master star in this part of the galaxy and find the point in space we are rotating around vs the light from that star? i must be missing something here.

or maybe the curves on the spiral arms represent a derivative of the speed of gravity propagation?

anyway lot to think about. the long lost question of our time. gravity?? what the fuck is it?

the barry center of the solar system would be come our new center which would be changing rapidly

Interesting thread and made think of another question ...

Does gravity influence light in anyway?

Try here

[link to metaresearch.org]

ENJOY!

Scientists already estimate that the speed of the gravitational wave that propagates the gravitational force is at least 20,000,000,000 x the speed of light c:
[link to www.metaresearch.org]

I believe that gravitational waves are actually sound waves which accelerate towards the center of mass of the source of gravity.

This means that the "speed of gravitational waves" is not constant, and is fastest near the center of mass, and is actually zero at the farthest reach of this gravitational force.

(It is not true that the reach of the gravitational force is infinite).

This means that depending on how far or near you are from the source of the gravitational force, the speed of the gravitational waves can reach you either later or sooner than light.

Photons are already known to behave like a particle with mass, which is why it has momentum, and is also why light can be "captured" by the enormous gravitational force of black holes.

However the mass of photons are only two dimensional, i.e., it has a surfcae area but it does not have volume, in other words, its geometrical shape is that of a hollow sphere.

This hollow sphere pulsates like a heart that expands and contracts. It shrinks to a radius smaller than the Planck length, and it expands to a radius as long as the farthest reach of its gravitational force.

The speed of this pulsation is the speed of the gravitational wave which is now believed to be faster than 20,000,000,000 x the speed of light c.

That's a very presumptuous answer from someone who doesn't know the definitive answer to this question themselves. I would suggest YOU sit back and eat some popcorn while you learn.

gravity is just how large bodies or small ones interact in friction less space with every action having an equal but opposite reaction

Gravity is instantaneous and continuous and is not constant - it is affected by temperature and other factors because it is dependent on neutrinos

I learned a lot from physicists while researching my new book

[link to endtimesand2019.webs.com]

that's an excellent question. i wonder. if your thread gets trolled by morons, i would not be surprised.

considering gravity is a direct impact of a massive body on space time, and we know space-time can move faster than light (hyper expansion in early moments after big bang) i'd assume it would be an instantaneous effect.

so let's say the imminent Betelgeuse supernova, or the wr104 supernova, has already happened, but the light hasn't reached us yet. are you saying the gravity effects could already be hammering us? if gravity IS faster than light, then surely that would be the case?

^this. dumbass thinking gravitons are proven been watching too much startrek.

1) those events may have happened quite some time ago. we have no way of knowing when they actually occured, until we see the event occur and back-calculate based on distance. so, if gravity had an instant effect, we'd never have known to be looking for such an event with our instruments. also, our instruments are likely not calibrated or capable of detected a 'gravity wave'. at the least, they're only recently capable, so we can't say.

2) based on distance, assuming gravity operates in space time like a pebble operates when tossed in a pool, the waves dissipate rapidly. they might not even be detectable by the time they reach us.

3) it's hard to imagine gravity being slower than light. if that were the case, space time would be restricted to changing form at light speed, and the size of the universe as we know it (over 30 billion lightyears, and with much more we cant yet see) would be impossible.

that's my opinion anyway. but hey, i'm just some asshole on the internet.

If the sun just vanished we'd zoom off into space in whatever direction we faced.

As for the speed of gravity I guess that light having no mass would give us a speed for the field it passes through as very close to it.

For what its worth I have a degree in physics.

Gravity, changes in gravity from a mass such as the sun, (gravity waves) travel at the speed of light. This is 'relatively' (lololol) well accepted among the astrophysics crowd that I hang out with.

They are think you guys are RETARDED btw. I'm not as judgmental, but clearly some people never learn the basics.

Einstein called it "spooky action at a distance" and yes it is a huge problem for modern physics.

There is an intermediary between light and gravity.....



it's called


MAGNETISM

Assuming that there is no resistance

No,

magnetism is one half of the electromagnetic-field, light is an electromagnetic phenomena.