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Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

 
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:03 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
FRNS are issued not as "lawful money" but as negotiable, transferable DEBT NOTES (promissory notes).

FRN's aren't issued as lawful money according to who?

Again, you can't even *define* lawful money. It is whatever you imagine it is. Where as I don't need your imagination. I can simply reference the courts who recognize FRNs as lawful money.

Its you on one side and the courts on the other. And the judiciary wins, as they have the authority to adjudicate. And you don't define anything. Not a single legal term, not a single jurisdiction, not a single requirement for anyone.

The moment you cite yourself as the law, you've already lost. Because you're not the law. If you want to make a legal argument, quote the law or courts.

Not yourself.

And that's where the entire 'sovereign citizen' movement fails. Your ilk keeps making up its *own* legal definitions, its *own* requirements of government its *own* little loopholes....and then laughably assuming that the government and the law are magically bound to whatever mad ramblings they imagine.

Laughing.....nope! Your imagination and pseudo-legal babble doesn't mean a thing. And isn't recognized by the court or the law. That's why the poor, stupid bastards that try using your reasoning in court keep going to jail.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:04 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
FRNS are not owned by the possessor and end user, therefore, the end user does not get to set the rules of their use, nor the legal ramifications of their use.

That is why I am allowed to reject them and demand lawful money per 12 USC 411.

If the owner of the Lawful money (the US Treasury) does not GIVE me lawful money via my demand, they are obligated to pay any fees or perform any duties associated with my now FORCED use of said property.

That is easily provable in court and is only common sense.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 16685774
United States
02/15/2013 02:07 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
This person J, has spent considerable time on this thread virtually commenting, and debunking every post...

he/she debunks period, yet does not offer anything in the way of constructive value...

It is quite obvious - the system, or peoples perception of the system is only serving those who adminster the system, and are willing to undermine anyone, in their search for answers...

We are well past the point of blindly accepting - trust us.

That blind trust has made people poor, in debt, living paycheck to paycheck, and very insecure... Not to mention all the crime and general deterioration...

As alluded to earlier, the sovereign quest must be hitting nerves, for a person like J, to spend so much time... If the courts will put everyone in jail, why is he bothering???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


AMEN!
Thank you for following that idiots ramblings. He provided no facts or evidence to support any of his posts. In my opinion he hasn't debunked shit. He's a moron who thinks the US Supreme court can pass laws through opinion.
I'm sick of people looking into Freeman and thinking that we are trying to get away with shit or above the law with rights to kill anyone.
That simply is not true............

Fuck the system that enslaves me.......
Fuck the system that steals money from my salary.....
Fuck the system that charges me fees for everything.......
Fuck the system that thinks I need it's permission to enjoy my god given rights (like traveling, or getting married)
Fuck the system that makes me pay $1000 in "child support" but yet I only get them 6 days per month..........

So what if it hasn't worked for me, there is quite a bit a legal research that has to be done. I'm getting close though....

getting ready to file a motion to challenge personal jurisdiction in my child support case. Freeman has given me the tools to at least go in there and call the courts out on their bullshit.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:08 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
DEMAND IS MADE FOR LAWFUL MONEY PER 12 USC 411

The J eu hates that law! The J eu is fighting so hard to keep the FRN in power because USURY is their specialty.

Long live the money changers! Too bad 12 usc 411 gives us the right to cast them out of our personal temples.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:11 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
FRNS are not YOUR property, use them without reservation at your own risk.

It doesn't matter whose property the placeholder is. It the *value* you own. That's why if a FRN gets old or worn out I can simply exchange it for a new one. The value isn't in the placeholder. The value is in the full faith and credit of the United States. Which the placeholder stands in for. The FRN is just a means a transmitting value.

Your argument is akin to claiming that if your bank owns my debit card, that the BANK owns everything I buy with it.

Laughing....no, they don't. You own whatever you buy with it. As the debit card is just a means for transmitting value. And its the *value* you exchange for goods and services. Not the debit card. The debit card is just a way of getting to the value.

And so it is with an FRN. Its just a transmitter of value, a placeholder for full faith and credit of our government. Who owns the place holder is irrelevant. Its who owns the value that matters. And the owners of the value is whoever is holding the FRN.

I'll demonstrate this principle for you at lunch time when I convert the value of an FRN into a sandwich. And it won't be the 'Federal Reserve' that eats it.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:17 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
DEMAND IS MADE FOR LAWFUL MONEY PER 12 USC 411
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:19 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The courts that idiot J keeps referring too are not "powerful" they are simply enforcing commercial contracts in
a 3rd party intervention.


The courts certainly cover contract disputes. But they're not *limited* to contract disputes. They settle civil and criminal complaints as well. They adjudicate cases that arise under the constitution. They settled disputes between states. They settle allegations of civil rights violations. All *sorts* of things.

That your ilk makes up some fantasy about all courts being 'chimerical' doesn't magically make it so. As I've pointed out before, your imagination has no impact on our legal system. And all the pseudo-legal babble you make up doesn't change the way the *actual* law is created, executed or adjudicated.

So you standing up and boldly declaring 'All Courts Are Maritime Commercial Courts!' has no more relevance to reality than declaring 'If I flap my arms, I can fly!' just before hoping off the edge of high rise. In both instances...your bold declaration is the bug. And reality is the windshield.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 16685774
United States
02/15/2013 02:19 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The 16th Amendment says you have to pay taxes.... enough said
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32235185


Everyone "pays taxes" not everyone has to pay the "income tax".

And the taxing power of congress does not come from the 16th, so go back to work and let the grown ups post.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


Lets get some facts straight
Income is a gain from some activity. Look up the tax code to get what they are.

I found something interesting in the Tax Treaties with other countries.

Personal service is not taxable in all of the tax treaties.

2 kinds of personal services
Independent - as a contractor
Dependent - as an employee

Personal service is trading your personal time for a fixed dollar amount also known as your salary.
Your not gaining anything if you are providing personal service. So how could the IRS tax your gains from income?

This new knowledge combined with the "Cracking the Code" book I have enough to start and challenge my tax status.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:26 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The 16th Amendment says you have to pay taxes.... enough said
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32235185


Everyone "pays taxes" not everyone has to pay the "income tax".

And the taxing power of congress does not come from the 16th, so go back to work and let the grown ups post.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


Lets get some facts straight
Income is a gain from some activity. Look up the tax code to get what they are.

I found something interesting in the Tax Treaties with other countries.

Personal service is not taxable in all of the tax treaties.

2 kinds of personal services
Independent - as a contractor
Dependent - as an employee

Personal service is trading your personal time for a fixed dollar amount also known as your salary.
Your not gaining anything if you are providing personal service. So how could the IRS tax your gains from income?

This new knowledge combined with the "Cracking the Code" book I have enough to start and challenge my tax status.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16685774


And you will lose. Just like the guy that wrote "cracking the code" did.

The Code is for TAXPAYERS. I promise you, if you try to use it, you will lose.

Demand your redemption per 12 USC 411 or you will fail in your quest. Just trying to save you lots and lots of grief and pain, the choice is yours.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:26 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
This person J, has spent considerable time on this thread virtually commenting, and debunking every post...

he/she debunks period, yet does not offer anything in the way of constructive value...


Here's some constructive value: if you don't like the law, change it. If you don't like income taxes, for example...repeal them. If you don't like speeding limits, repeal them too. The legislatures of your States and the Congress of the US can repeal these laws (with a little help from the executive branch). Vote in the people that represent your views. There are constructive outlets for political disagreement.

Use them.

All of this pseudo-legal babble here in your little bubble where you just make up whatever you want and agree with each other....that's just intellectual masturbation. And quite irrelevant to the outside world. All the same laws still apply to you. All the same taxes are required. None of the 'loopholes' or 'limits' you make up actually exist.

Its wasted effort. Well, not completely wasted I supposed. You certainly entertain me. But it seems a long way to go just to make me smile.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:28 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
note n. a promissory note, a written statement of debt by one or more people to one or more people, with a statement of a specific amount owed or due, date it is due, interest (if any) on the amount, and other terms such as installments, penalty for late payment, full amount due if delinquent, how secured (as by real property), and attorneys' fees and costs if required to collect on the note. (See: promissory note)

By definition (not mine) a NOTE is not a payment, but is a promise to pay.

The J eu won't pay attention, but that does not change the fact, a NOTE is not a payment, it is a promise to pay.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:30 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Personal service is not taxable in all of the tax treaties.

First, define 'personal service' in your mind. As the pseudo-legal definitions you people make up come in more flavors than Baskin Robins.

Second, according to who? According to the *law* is personal service not taxable? According to the *courts* is personal service not taxable?

Or according to you, citing yourself?

If its the law or the courts, please quote them. If its just you citing yourself, then that's not a legal argument. That's a statement of your personal opinion. Which doesn't affect the tax code in the slightest.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:31 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The 16th Amendment says you have to pay taxes.... enough said
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32235185


Everyone "pays taxes" not everyone has to pay the "income tax".

And the taxing power of congress does not come from the 16th, so go back to work and let the grown ups post.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


Lets get some facts straight
Income is a gain from some activity. Look up the tax code to get what they are.

I found something interesting in the Tax Treaties with other countries.

Personal service is not taxable in all of the tax treaties.

2 kinds of personal services
Independent - as a contractor
Dependent - as an employee

Personal service is trading your personal time for a fixed dollar amount also known as your salary.
Your not gaining anything if you are providing personal service. So how could the IRS tax your gains from income?

This new knowledge combined with the "Cracking the Code" book I have enough to start and challenge my tax status.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16685774


Here you go: [link to www.constitutionpreservation.org]

"Detroit -- A man whose claims that most earnings are not subject to income tax have drawn national attention was sentenced to two years and nine months in prison Monday by a federal judge.

Peter Hendrickson, 54, of Commerce Township, whose views on federal income tax are detailed in his book "Cracking the Code," was found guilty of 10 counts of filing false documents by a federal jury in October."

Just a heads up for you, Brother!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:35 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
"DEMAND IS MADE FOR LAWFUL MONEY PER 12 USC 411

Stop doing business with other peoples property and you will stop having to pay them a fee for its use.

Cracking the code is bullshit that will get you in financial trouble or worse.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:38 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The J eu hates that law! The J eu is fighting so hard to keep the FRN in power because USURY is their specialty.

By 'J eu', are we supposed to read that as 'Jew'? Is the antisemitism and white supremacy that riddles the 'sovereign citizen' movement like a bone deep cancer starting to ooze to the surface again?

Well, my little anti-semites......the FRNs are lawful money, as affirmed in US v. Rickman and other cases.

In Milan V. the US.....Milan tried to argue that he should be able to redeem his FRN for precious metals. The courts dismissed his argument as frivolous and tossed it (and him) out.

So with FRNs being lawful money, but title 12 not requiring any exchange for precious metals.....

....what else have you got?
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:41 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Income tax is a direct result of YOU obligating yourself to it. Income Tax is voluntary, right? How exactly did you volunteer to perform in the contract between Congress and the Federal RESERVE BANK?

No, income tax is quite mandatory. You don't choose to exempt yourself om income taxes.

Many a folk have tried your 'voluntary taxation' argument. And they didn't enjoy prison much at all.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:43 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
This is why statism doesn't work. The system is organized to keep certain classes in power, and everyone else in debt slavery.


Huh. We're approaching 225 years since the signing of our constitution. And while there have obviously been bumps in the road (Civil war, great depression, anyone?)......we're still here.

So is history wrong...or are you?
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:46 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
By definition (not mine) a NOTE is not a payment, but is a promise to pay.

You say that FRNs can't pay debts. The courts consistently rule that they can. And the law recognizes that they do.

Sorry, buddy....gonna have to go with the law and the courts on this over some anonymous guy on an internet chat board.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17551129
Canada
02/15/2013 02:47 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
This person J, has spent considerable time on this thread virtually commenting, and debunking every post...

he/she debunks period, yet does not offer anything in the way of constructive value...


Here's some constructive value: if you don't like the law, change it. If you don't like income taxes, for example...repeal them. If you don't like speeding limits, repeal them too. The legislatures of your States and the Congress of the US can repeal these laws (with a little help from the executive branch). Vote in the people that represent your views. There are constructive outlets for political disagreement.

Use them.

All of this pseudo-legal babble here in your little bubble where you just make up whatever you want and agree with each other....that's just intellectual masturbation. And quite irrelevant to the outside world. All the same laws still apply to you. All the same taxes are required. None of the 'loopholes' or 'limits' you make up actually exist.

Its wasted effort. Well, not completely wasted I supposed. You certainly entertain me. But it seems a long way to go just to make me smile.
 Quoting: J 34311994



Spoken like an elitest (in your mind of course)... You enjoy your position in the pyramid, and most likely enjoy your physical rewards for ACTING the part...

No matter, it is crashing down, and there is nothing you can do about it...
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:50 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Peter Hendrickson, 54, of Commerce Township, whose views on federal income tax are detailed in his book "Cracking the Code," was found guilty of 10 counts of filing false documents by a federal jury in October."

Laughing.......ooops.

Um, guys...there's no secret code. There's no special syntax. There's no magical incantation, secret hand shake or font size that makes you immune to the law.

Neither the laws nor the court are bound to the inane bullshyte you guys tell each other. You, citing yourself, doens't mean a thing to the law. As Mr. Hendrickson was reminded of this morning when he woke up in prison.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:50 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Yep, Southern Poverty Law Center.

I figured as much.

eu is what my daughter used to say when something STINKS, you know like shit.

J eu was my personal way of saying J eu is spreading shit.

The fact that it was taken as antisemitic (which is another indicator, since the word has nothing to do with the tribe of Judah, but rather an entire group of many peoples from Semitic regions of the world ie, Semites) is further proof we have a professional shill posting here.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:52 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
No matter, it is crashing down, and there is nothing you can do about it...

<patting you on the head> Sure, buddy. Daniel Shay said the same thing.

Now how did that work out again?
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 02:56 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Demand your redemption per 12 USC 411 or you will fail in your quest. Just trying to save you lots and lots of grief and pain, the choice is yours.

Here's the problem: FRNs *are* lawful money. So how does demanding 'redemption' magically make you immune from federal income tax?

You've never been able to explain that.

And you speak of 'some people' who this has worked for. Yet when I ask you who they are and for evidence to back up your claim...

.....you go strangely silent.

Are these 'some people' hanging out with Elvis, JFK, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:56 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Again, cites of "court cases" without cites.

NOTEs are legally defined and I provided the definition. Notes are promises to pay, they are not PAYMENT, they are discharges at best.

The more the SPLC resident shill posts, the more he reviles that 'they' do not like goys waking up to their usury scams.

DEMAND IS MADE FOR LAWFUL MONEY PER 12 USC 411

WITH PREJUDICE, WITHOUT RECOURSE
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 02:59 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
And before the J states again that I am an antisemitic, for the record, I am Hebrew.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 03:01 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Since so much has been buried by the piles of smelly crap from one poster here is the link where you can find actual cases of those demanding lawful money per 12 USC 411 are winning cases, avoiding cases altogether AND getting full refunds of withheld income tax:

[link to savingtosuitorsclub.net]
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 03:01 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Thank you for following that idiots ramblings. He provided no facts or evidence to support any of his posts. In my opinion he hasn't debunked shit. He's a moron who thinks the US Supreme court can pass laws through opinion.

Actually I provide ruling after ruling that explicitly contradicts you. You know, real world outcomes where someone *tries* your pseudo-legal gibberish in court...and is laughed out it (at best) or tossed in jail (at worst).

Your ilk says that FRN's aren't money. The courts recognize that they are.

Your ilk says that the United States doesn't include any State. The courts recognize the US as including every State.

Your ilk says that there's no requirement in the law to pay income taxes. The courts have consistently held that there is such a requirement.

Point for point, the 'sovereign citizens' make up loophole for yourselves that just isn't recognized by the law and the courts.

You're not making legal arguments. You're just stating your personal opinion, citing yourselves. Which is fine if you're on a message board. But doesn't mean a thing in court. And as Mr. Hendrickson found out this morning when he was fed his breakfast through a slot in the door......you citing yourselves doesn't amount to much.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17551129
Canada
02/15/2013 03:02 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
No matter, it is crashing down, and there is nothing you can do about it...

<patting you on the head> Sure, buddy. Daniel Shay said the same thing.

Now how did that work out again?
 Quoting: J 34311994


Wake up and smell the roses buddy...

The crash I am talking about is not your system, it is too entrenced to ever bring it down...

Enjoying all the wild weather!!!
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 03:08 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Since so much has been buried by the piles of smelly crap from one poster here is the link where you can find actual cases of those demanding lawful money per 12 USC 411 are winning cases, avoiding cases altogether AND getting full refunds of withheld income tax:

[link to savingtosuitorsclub.net]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


Yeah, that doesn't cite *anyone* who has actually used this tactic in court or had it been accepted by the IRS. And everytime I ask you to name actual people who have used this to success (with evidence to back up the claim)...

....you suddenly get vague and evasive.

You can't explain the logic of it why demanding 'redemption for lawful money' would magically make you exempt from income taxes. As FRNs are lawful money. Worse, Milan V. the US demonstrated that no one is entitled to redeem FRNs for precious metals.

There's just no part of your theory that makes the slightest sense. Its just another legal unicorn like Hendrickson's 'Crack the Code' or Benson's 'the law never was'. And they both warmed prison bunk beds for their folly.

Try again.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/15/2013 03:13 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
If the owner of the Lawful money (the US Treasury) does not GIVE me lawful money via my demand, they are obligated to pay any fees or perform any duties associated with my now FORCED use of said property.

First, FRNs are lawful money. Nixing your entire argument.

Second, who says that the Federal Reserve is 'obligated to pay any fees or perform any duties associated with my now FORCED use of said property.'

Smiling.....you citing yourselfr again?

Do you really believe that your pseudo-legal gibberish obligates the Federal Reserve (or anyone else) to do *anything*?

Sigh...you poor, silly bastards. You really don't get it, do you? You, citing you, isn't the law. Nor does it create any obligation, establish any loophole, create any limit, define any term, establish any jurisdiction.

That you believe it does is adorable. And has kept me smiling for days.

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