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Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

 
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/15/2013 10:43 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
i wonder how this subject is divided amoungst those who have nothing to lose,and those who have invested their lives in the system.

Its not a matter of 'investing their lives in the system'. Its about objective v. subjective. Do we believe that law is generally objective, where folks are held accountable to public laws established by the people? Essentially, a nation of laws.


Or do we believe that the law is generally subjective, where the law doesn't exist and everyone can decide for themselves what is legal or illegal? Essentially anarchy.

In the US, we picked the more objective course. The people elect representatives, who then in turn wield the people's authority in their stead to create, execute and adjudicate law. And the laws apply to pretty much everyone objectively.

You can argue whether or not that's the system we *should* have. But that is the system we *do* have. We are a nation of laws. Not anarchy.

And that's a fact that just drives the sovereign citizen folks crazy.
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 10:44 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The enrgies are in place that ensures this...

What is interesting - the sequence of events...


Ah, but you forget that the condor flies at midnight.

And he likes chocolate and pancakes.
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 10:50 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The troll (I did not see that name in your personal list yet, jack off) so now you can add 2 more.

YOU ARE SPECIAL!

oh, and you can eat shit and call it beef franks for all I care, you sure as hell ain't any kind of ruler over me!!
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 10:50 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 10:50 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The enrgies are in place that ensures this...

What is interesting - the sequence of events...


Ah, but you forget that the condor flies at midnight.

And he likes chocolate and pancakes.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34504191


Sorry, over my head - elaborate, or most likely we are not on the same page...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 32275308
United States
02/15/2013 10:51 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

Since so much has been buried by the piles of smelly crap from one poster here is the link where you can find actual cases of those demanding lawful money per 12 USC 411 are winning cases, avoiding cases altogether AND getting full refunds of withheld income tax:

[link to savingtosuitorsclub.net]

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


There are several people there with full refunds in the forums.

There is no way anyone could have gone there and actually searched and not find them.

Sanitized returns and checks, all from redeeming lawful money per 12-USC 411.

I take your silence on being from Southern Poverty as acceptance of my claim you are a paid shill for them.

I take your lie that NOTEs pay debt as more proof you are a liar when it suites you.

I take your non-answer on who owns the FRNS you have in your pocket as proof they are not your property.

I take your lack of addressing the fact I have addressed Rickman and Ware (Ware had shit to do with FRNS, it was United States Notes) that you are simply posting to read your own posts and then claim nobody has called you a lair, pointed out your folly and misrepresentation of cases

AND your utter ignorance of the nature and meaning of 12-USC 411, redemption and freedom.

In short, you are nasty, brain washed and abrasive idiot.

Other than bumping this thread, you are pretty much good for nothing but shilling for the SPLC.
 Quoting: J 34311994



There are several people there with full refunds in the forums.

Who and with what evidence. Name them. And show us the evidence. I didn't see either.

Educate us.


There is no way anyone could have gone there and actually searched and not find them.

Then it will be remarkably easy for you to name them and back their claims with evidence.

Please do so now.


I take your silence on being from Southern Poverty as acceptance of my claim you are a paid shill for them.


In this thread alone, I've been called a paid shill, a government agent, a member of the illuminati, a 'Jew' (I think, they altered the spelling a little), an IRS agent, a member of the illuminati, an elite, a plant, a domestic terrorist, a communist, a socialist and more silly names than I can shake a stick at. You 'sovereign citizen' types just love your labels.

After a while, it all just blends together as useless noise. You have as much evidence for your claim as those poor, hapless idiots before you did for theirs:

Namely, nothing.

But again, you accept your own imagination as irrefutable evidence of whatever you wish to invent.

.....if only reality worked that way.

Now...answer my question: since FRNs are lawful money, why would 'demanding redemption' for lawful money magically make you immune to paying taxes?

Especially given that the courts have already found that no one is entitled to 'redeem' FRNs for precious metals?

Your argument doesn't make the slightest sense. And of course, is backed by zero evidence. But then most of the confused, awkward idiocy on this thread suffers from the same deficits.


AND your utter ignorance of the nature and meaning of 12-USC 411, redemption and freedom.

More accurately, I don't accept your latest inane conspiracy babble as anything more than inane conspiracy babble. With FRN's legally recognized as lawful money, your claims are not only factually baseless but completely unnecessary.

No where in Title 12 does it say that demanding your FRNs be 'redeemed for lawful money' makes you immune from taxation. That's you citing yourself as Title 12. Which is more than a little silly. Worse, no court has ever recognized the claim as valid. No law either.

Its just you...saying it must be so. And you're nobody.

So what else have you got?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


FRN's are lawful money...they made it law...They are not redeemable in anything, especially anything of value. They are back by faith. The faith that amerikans will be fukin stupid enough for so long to accept serfdom...Your jurisdiction or obligation for taxation by the IRS/state/fed corps comes from your contractual obligation, consent and ignorance. A Sovereign does not have any outstanding/current contracts that require performace and subsequently provide from themselves...savy?
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/15/2013 10:51 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Sorry, over my head - elaborate, or most likely we are not on the same page...

I guess you just don't understand the 'energies' or the 'sequence' then.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1246378
United States
02/15/2013 10:51 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
It has been fun posting but I'm done.

You are Sovereign because you were born Sovereign. Simple as that

I've never even heard your president talk J because I don't watch TV anymore already for a long long time

I have nothing to do with your system J because it doesn't exist in my world

I could care less about health care or all the other nonsense because I'm not a party to it because I never agreed to it

Yes I AM THE KING in my world J. You are a subject to a fiction and you choose to be.

Anyways at some point you'll realize everybody is waking up and this system will collapse on its own. It's only a matter of time.

Best of luck serf J

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1246378


The enrgies are in place that ensures this...

What is interesting - the sequence of events...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Their fraudulent system will collapse on its own

Just use common sense with people. Don't talk about the legalese because its their system and it's unimportant

Most people where I live already know about the scam of the system but it's a special place.

I educate everybody I come across

I say. You were born right? When did you consent to the system with FULL DISCLOSURE to terms and conditions? When did you give the corporation USA and the corporation called the State jurisdiction over you?

People usually respond angrily and say "I never consented"

I tell them that is the gist of the Sovereign thing

If you simplify things people understand.

Use common sense

Common sense will implode this system.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 19307394
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02/15/2013 10:54 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
"... two national governments exist; one to be maintained under the Constitution, with all its restrictions, the other to be maintained by Congress outside and independently of that instrument. By exercising such powers as other nations of the earth are accustomed to a radical and mischievous change in our system of government will result ... We will, in that event, pass from the era of constitutional liberty guarded and protected by a written constitution into an era of legislative absolutism ... It will be an evil day for American liberty if the theory of a government outside the supreme law of the land finds lodgment in our constitutional jurisprudence." Downes v. Bidwell, Supreme Court

1. The original United States that was in operation until 1860; a collection of sovereign Republics in the union. Under the original Constitution the States controlled the Federal Government; the Federal Government did not control the States and had very little authority.

2. The original United States has been usurped by a separate and different UNITED STATES formed in 1871, which only controls the District of Columbia and it’s territories, and which is actually a corporation (the UNITED STATES CORPORATION) that acts as our current government. The United States Corporation operates under Corporate/Commercial/Public Law rather than Common/Private Law.

[link to www.patriotsoath.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1246378
United States
02/15/2013 10:55 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I advise all of you to stop talking to J and ignore him. Treat him as the FICTION that he is.

Stick with simple people

Tell people they never consented to the system. If you use common sense with people they'll understand that they never agreed to any of this. In my experience everyone I've told gets angry once they real eyes that they never agreed to any of this

People like J are best ignored.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
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02/15/2013 10:55 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I hereby challenge anyone to prove jurisdiction over me, right here, right now.

I am my own ruler, anyone claiming jurisdiction over me can prove right now.

Waiting for proof. Until I get proof, I will live exactly how I choose to.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
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02/15/2013 10:56 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I advise all of you to stop talking to J and ignore him. Treat him as the FICTION that he is.

Stick with simple people

Tell people they never consented to the system. If you use common sense with people they'll understand that they never agreed to any of this. In my experience everyone I've told gets angry once they real eyes that they never agreed to any of this

People like J are best ignored.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1246378


Best post on this thread!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/15/2013 10:57 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
FRN's are lawful money...they made it law...They are not redeemable in anything, especially anything of value.


They're redeemable for another FRN. And I bought a lovely dinner at BJ's Brewhouse, complete with some Jeremiah Red just tonight with them.

The bills themselves are just paper. But the value they transmit is the full faith and credit of the United States. A $40 or so dollar portion of which I owned until passing it to my waiter when I pushed my chair back from the table.



Your jurisdiction or obligation for taxation by the IRS/state/fed corps comes from your contractual obligation, consent and ignorance.



Who says that jurisdiction and obligation for taxation come from contractual obligations or consent?
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/15/2013 11:00 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I advise all of you to stop talking to J and ignore him. Treat him as the FICTION that he is.

Laughing.....so when you close your eyes, the whole world disappears, huh?

Um, sorry. My existence isn't predicated on whether or not you agree with it. Just like the law still applies regardless of whether or not believe it exists.

As your belief is essentially irrelevant on both counts.

Though you are offering us a lovely window into the mind of a 'sovereign citizen'. Where anything you refuse to accept ceases to exist.

Sigh...if only reality worked that way.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34504191
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02/15/2013 11:03 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I am my own ruler, anyone claiming jurisdiction over me can prove right now.

Nope. You're subject to our laws. If you're in our country, you'll abide our rules. If you violate them and we catch you, we'll punish you.

Remember, your agreement to our jurisdiction is irrelevant. As that's not a decision you get to make. But one *we* get to make.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17551129
Canada
02/15/2013 11:08 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
i wonder how this subject is divided amoungst those who have nothing to lose,and those who have invested their lives in the system.

Its not a matter of 'investing their lives in the system'. Its about objective v. subjective. Do we believe that law is generally objective, where folks are held accountable to public laws established by the people? Essentially, a nation of laws.


Or do we believe that the law is generally subjective, where the law doesn't exist and everyone can decide for themselves what is legal or illegal? Essentially anarchy.

In the US, we picked the more objective course. The people elect representatives, who then in turn wield the people's authority in their stead to create, execute and adjudicate law. And the laws apply to pretty much everyone objectively.

You can argue whether or not that's the system we *should* have. But that is the system we *do* have. We are a nation of laws. Not anarchy.

And that's a fact that just drives the sovereign citizen folks crazy.
 Quoting: J 34504191



The sovereign citizen movement is NOT about anarchy...

It is you and media types that paint it in that light...

The movement is about not being plowed under by a system that is inherrantly inflationary...

Most of the people I know, have jobs, and families and they do not go around entertaining the idea of being reckless...

They have a moral compass...

But, they are still in debt... Most hopelessly and fed up...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17551129
Canada
02/15/2013 11:14 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Sorry, over my head - elaborate, or most likely we are not on the same page...

I guess you just don't understand the 'energies' or the 'sequence' then.
 Quoting: J 34504191


Oh, I understand the energies very well, although I doubt we are talking about the same energies...

But, the sequence will be a surprise to everyone...

Including those who set this system in motion, so long ago...
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/15/2013 11:18 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
two national governments exist; one to be maintained under the Constitution, with all its restrictions, the other to be maintained by Congress outside and independently of that instrument. By exercising such powers as other nations of the earth are accustomed to a radical and mischievous change in our system of government will result ... We will, in that event, pass from the era of constitutional liberty guarded and protected by a written constitution into an era of legislative absolutism ... It will be an evil day for American liberty if the theory of a government outside the supreme law of the land finds lodgment in our constitutional jurisprudence." Downes v. Bidwell


Two problems. First, Downes V. Bidwell is a case about whether or not the constitutional protections exist in the territories. They have nothing to do with the jurisdiction of constitutional protections in the US.

Second, you're quoting the *dissenting* opinion. Not the majority opinion. And the dissenting opinion doesn't create precedent nor carries with it the authority of the judiciary.

The majority opinion does.

It helps if you actually read what you're citing instead of simply cutting and pasting it mechanically without thought or question.


1. The original United States that was in operation until 1860; a collection of sovereign Republics in the union. Under the original Constitution the States controlled the Federal Government; the Federal Government did not control the States and had very little authority.

When you say the 'original' constitution, you mean the one before the 13th amendment? Or before the 14th?

By that standard, the 'original' constitution ended in 1791.


The original United States has been usurped by a separate and different UNITED STATES formed in 1871, which only controls the District of Columbia and it’s territories, and which is actually a corporation (the UNITED STATES CORPORATION) that acts as our current government. The United States Corporation operates under Corporate/Commercial/Public Law rather than Common/Private Law.



Says who? Again, you 'sovereign citizen' guys seem to love your long winded pseudo-legal declarations. But when backing these up with actual evidence, they tend to fall apart.

The US government certainly *owns* a corporation. But the US government isn't a corporation itself. Just like if you say, open a bank account, that doesn't mean you BECOME a bank account.

Oh, and the United States includes all the States. Not just the District of Columbia. The district of Columbia is *only* under the jurisdiction of the US, however. Each State is under concurrent jurisdiction. That of itself...and that of the federal government.
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 11:19 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Sorry, over my head - elaborate, or most likely we are not on the same page...

I guess you just don't understand the 'energies' or the 'sequence' then.
 Quoting: J 34504191


Oh, I understand the energies very well, although I doubt we are talking about the same energies...

But, the sequence will be a surprise to everyone...

Including those who set this system in motion, so long ago...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Oh, and again I will add;

Enjoying the wild weather ???
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/15/2013 11:27 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Nope, still my own ruler.

Nobody has provided proof yet!

Anyone? Got PROOF?
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 11:27 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I am my own ruler, anyone claiming jurisdiction over me can prove right now.

Nope. You're subject to our laws. If you're in our country, you'll abide our rules. If you violate them and we catch you, we'll punish you.

Remember, your agreement to our jurisdiction is irrelevant. As that's not a decision you get to make. But one *we* get to make.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34504191


Prove it.
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 11:32 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Proof?

Anyone?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34504191
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02/15/2013 11:35 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The sovereign citizen movement is NOT about anarchy...

It is you and media types that paint it in that light...



I'm a 'media type', now? But I thought your ilk just called me a member of the illuminati. Or an employee of the IRS. Or was it the 'Southern Poverty Law Center'. Wait...wasn't I supposed to be a communist, right? Or was that a domestic terrorist? A socialist? An elite? A jew?

I apologize for the confusion...but the litany of silly labels your ilk tries to saddle me with all starts to run together after a while.


The movement is about not being plowed under by a system that is inherrantly inflationary...


Really? Because the guy who was just here insisted it was about him being a king, and no law existed nor did any law applying to him.

Which sounds *exactly* like anarchy. So me, the 'media types' and whoever that poor bastard was then, right?
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 11:35 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I am my own ruler, anyone claiming jurisdiction over me can prove right now.

Nope. You're subject to our laws. If you're in our country, you'll abide our rules. If you violate them and we catch you, we'll punish you.

Remember, your agreement to our jurisdiction is irrelevant. As that's not a decision you get to make. But one *we* get to make.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34504191


I am subject to your laws "IF" well, either I am or not, no "IF".

Provide our proof, Shill agent J.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
02/15/2013 11:38 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Oh yeah J, I called you a faggot in another post, you forgot that one on you list too.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34504191
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02/15/2013 11:39 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Prove it.

Violate a law. If we catch you, then your theory will be put to the test. If you are truly your own king and no law applies to you....then there will be nothing we can do.

If however, you're just a poor deluded soul, then they'll arrest the 'king' and put you in with the guy who keeps screaming he's Elvis. He's 'the king' too!

Break a law in front of a cop and let him see you do it. Say....wave your dick at him. Or spit on him. See what happens.

Smiling...what could possibly go wrong? After all, you're immune to all the laws, right?
Anonymous Coward
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Canada
02/15/2013 11:39 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The sovereign citizen movement is NOT about anarchy...

It is you and media types that paint it in that light...



I'm a 'media type', now? But I thought your ilk just called me a member of the illuminati. Or an employee of the IRS. Or was it the 'Southern Poverty Law Center'. Wait...wasn't I supposed to be a communist, right? Or was that a domestic terrorist? A socialist? An elite? A jew?

I apologize for the confusion...but the litany of silly labels your ilk tries to saddle me with all starts to run together after a while.


The movement is about not being plowed under by a system that is inherrantly inflationary...


Really? Because the guy who was just here insisted it was about him being a king, and no law existed nor did any law applying to him.

Which sounds *exactly* like anarchy. So me, the 'media types' and whoever that poor bastard was then, right?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34504191


The confusion exists, because it is impossible to get straight answers...
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 11:40 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Prove it.

Violate a law. If we catch you, then your theory will be put to the test. If you are truly your own king and no law applies to you....then there will be nothing we can do.

If however, you're just a poor deluded soul, then they'll arrest the 'king' and put you in with the guy who keeps screaming he's Elvis. He's 'the king' too!

Break a law in front of a cop and let him see you do it. Say....wave your dick at him. Or spit on him. See what happens.

Smiling...what could possibly go wrong? After all, you're immune to all the laws, right?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34504191


Not proof.
Anonymous Coward
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02/15/2013 11:42 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Provide your proof. If I am a "subject" I do not have to take any action, the onus is on YOU to prove jurisdiction, so prove your jurisdiction over me.
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/15/2013 11:43 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Oh yeah J, I called you a faggot in another post, you forgot that one on you list too.

I must have missed that one. Like I said, it all melds together into long vowels and clicking noises.

But its amusing to watch you and your ilk cite yourselves as authorities on yet another topic you don't have the slightest clue about.

Enjoy!

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