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Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

 
Miss Kitty

User ID: 34725458
United States
02/19/2013 01:11 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I understand the working of an attorney's mind is not as uncomplicated as mine, or some of the others on this thread. However, unless you have been under a rock for the last decade or so, why do you not see the utter devastation that was our country? Our healthcare is a mockery, Drs. going to prison if they attend an emergency patient before the new god panel goes to work at 9:00 am and makes the decision as to what they (the emergency patient that is not a member of Congress) may have administered as treatment and meds. Watching the power mongers rip our wonderful Constitution to shreds by enacting the most draconian laws ever stuffed up anyone's butt! The blatant fraud by buying Presidents (or those who are passed off as such)and usurping the choice of the people. What about the strange "suicides" and cremations of live humans instead of due process? You, of all people, would undoubtedly be the first to say "innocent until proven guilty!"
Why, on God's green Earth, would you say you have no idea what the people think they have lost? OH sorry ... may I say "God" in your presence or in a conversation directed toward you?


And what does any of that have to do with the holder of a promissory note being the person a debt is paid to? Or the profound, almost parody-like misunderstandings that the sovereign citizen folks have made regarding the nature of debt instruments?

Which are the topics I'm addressing.
 Quoting: J 34311994


Well J. If the pos gov. we have right now was not doing it's damnedest to destroy our way of life and our ability to make a living, feed our children, pay our bills, and leave us alone to be the law abiding citizens (there is a word for you J. citizen) and not stick us under Admiralty law which gives them the unfounded right (right, another important word) to declare us all terrorists, which is a real problem for most of us since some of us have never even had a speeding ticket ... leave our currency alone and stop ramming Keynesian economics down our throats ... we would not be having this conversation in the first place!!!
J
User ID: 34311994
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02/19/2013 01:14 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Well J. If the pos gov. we have right now was not doing it's damnedest to destroy our way of life and our ability to make a living, feed our children, pay our bills, and leave us alone to be the law abiding citizens (there is a word for you J. citizen) and not stick us under Admiralty law which gives them the unfounded right (right, another important word) to declare us all terrorists, which is a real problem for most of us since some of us have never even had a speeding ticket ... leave our currency alone and stop ramming Keynesian economics down our throats ... we would not be having this conversation in the first place!!!

I picking my battles, Miss. And none of that is within the scope of my argument. I wish you the best with it though.
Miss Kitty

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02/19/2013 01:17 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Well J. If the pos gov. we have right now was not doing it's damnedest to destroy our way of life and our ability to make a living, feed our children, pay our bills, and leave us alone to be the law abiding citizens (there is a word for you J. citizen) and not stick us under Admiralty law which gives them the unfounded right (right, another important word) to declare us all terrorists, which is a real problem for most of us since some of us have never even had a speeding ticket ... leave our currency alone and stop ramming Keynesian economics down our throats ... we would not be having this conversation in the first place!!!

I picking my battles, Miss. And none of that is within the scope of my argument. I wish you the best with it though.
 Quoting: J 34311994


J. I am merely answering the questions you posed to me.
J
User ID: 34311994
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02/19/2013 01:20 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
J. I am merely answering the questions you posed to me.

Well, I'm discussing the sovereign citizen movement and its various pseudo-legal claims. When and if you'd ever like to join me, I'll be about.

The topics you've raised are quite broad and outside the scope of the arguments I'm making. I wish you the best with them.
Miss Kitty

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02/19/2013 01:25 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Well J. If the pos gov. we have right now was not doing it's damnedest to destroy our way of life and our ability to make a living, feed our children, pay our bills, and leave us alone to be the law abiding citizens (there is a word for you J. citizen) and not stick us under Admiralty law which gives them the unfounded right (right, another important word) to declare us all terrorists, which is a real problem for most of us since some of us have never even had a speeding ticket ... leave our currency alone and stop ramming Keynesian economics down our throats ... we would not be having this conversation in the first place!!!

I picking my battles, Miss. And none of that is within the scope of my argument. I wish you the best with it though.
 Quoting: J 34311994


J. I am merely answering the questions you posed to me.
 Quoting: Miss Kitty


I sincerely doubt that you do (wish me the best with it) since it is characters like you that have made this mess in the first place. Sorry J. The people on this thread are trying to educate themselves so the congress and crooked judges can no longer take advantage of the present brand of law and politics that are so damaging to them. None in a court of Admiralty law will tell them the true protection they have and are entitled to under the law ... not the bogus law you all are wielding now. It may be legal, for all of you, but it is not necessary to abuse the common person who does not speak legalese. They don't know their rights and lawyers and judges certainly will not explain it to them. This is all self defense and they will not always make the mistakes you say they are now.
J
User ID: 34311994
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02/19/2013 01:42 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The people on this thread are trying to educate themselves so the congress and crooked judges can no longer take advantage of the present brand of law and politics that are so damaging to them.

I disagree. The folks in this thread are overwhelmingly coming up with nonsense gibberish that has a very poor track record of assisting them with any legal matter.

There is no special status, no secret hand shake, no imaginary legal definition, no currency in your pocket or special syntax incantation that makes one immune from the law or taxation.

Most of the pseudo-legal nonsense posted in this thread is of the caliber of the poster than insisted that the HOLDER of a promissory note is somehow obligated to pay the debtor.

Namely, worthless idiocy.

I've said repeatedly that if folks want to change the law, they should elect folks that share their views. That this will actually get results. Useless rhetorical masturbation where one anonymous guy on the internet agrees with another about a legal definition they've both imagined its meaningless.

Oh, its entertaining for me. But my enjoyment is unlikely to be the goal for those here.

So I wish you well in your arguments and hope that you can do something productive with your pursuit of a resolution. Good luck.
Miss Kitty

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02/19/2013 02:08 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The people on this thread are trying to educate themselves so the congress and crooked judges can no longer take advantage of the present brand of law and politics that are so damaging to them.

I disagree. The folks in this thread are overwhelmingly coming up with nonsense gibberish that has a very poor track record of assisting them with any legal matter.

There is no special status, no secret hand shake, no imaginary legal definition, no currency in your pocket or special syntax incantation that makes one immune from the law or taxation.

Most of the pseudo-legal nonsense posted in this thread is of the caliber of the poster than insisted that the HOLDER of a promissory note is somehow obligated to pay the debtor.

Namely, worthless idiocy.

I've said repeatedly that if folks want to change the law, they should elect folks that share their views. That this will actually get results. Useless rhetorical masturbation where one anonymous guy on the internet agrees with another about a legal definition they've both imagined its meaningless.

Oh, its entertaining for me. But my enjoyment is unlikely to be the goal for those here.

So I wish you well in your arguments and hope that you can do something productive with your pursuit of a resolution. Good luck.
 Quoting: J 34311994


J. I am not pursuing a resolution. I am not a sovereign person. I have many friends who are attorneys and I think formal education tends to take away heart and soul. The people here are trying to learn how to protect themselves in a court of law not made for them. The courts now are geared for the protection of the corporation only. You know the games played on the common person in these courts and there is a better way. They merely want to hold the courts, attorneys, and judges to a higher level. honesty would be a good start. Why don't you make some useful suggestions, instead of misunderstanding what they say, and be helpful ... what a concept. Helping the common person .. wow ...
Miss Kitty

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02/19/2013 02:14 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The people on this thread are trying to educate themselves so the congress and crooked judges can no longer take advantage of the present brand of law and politics that are so damaging to them.

I disagree. The folks in this thread are overwhelmingly coming up with nonsense gibberish that has a very poor track record of assisting them with any legal matter.

There is no special status, no secret hand shake, no imaginary legal definition, no currency in your pocket or special syntax incantation that makes one immune from the law or taxation.

Most of the pseudo-legal nonsense posted in this thread is of the caliber of the poster than insisted that the HOLDER of a promissory note is somehow obligated to pay the debtor.

Namely, worthless idiocy.

I've said repeatedly that if folks want to change the law, they should elect folks that share their views. That this will actually get results. Useless rhetorical masturbation where one anonymous guy on the internet agrees with another about a legal definition they've both imagined its meaningless.

Oh, its entertaining for me. But my enjoyment is unlikely to be the goal for those here.

So I wish you well in your arguments and hope that you can do something productive with your pursuit of a resolution. Good luck.
 Quoting: J 34311994


J. I am not pursuing a resolution. I am not a sovereign person. I have many friends who are attorneys and I think formal education tends to take away heart and soul. The people here are trying to learn how to protect themselves in a court of law not made for them. The courts now are geared for the protection of the corporation only. You know the games played on the common person in these courts and there is a better way. They merely want to hold the courts, attorneys, and judges to a higher level. honesty would be a good start. Why don't you make some useful suggestions, instead of misunderstanding what they say, and be helpful ... what a concept. Helping the common person .. wow ...
 Quoting: Miss Kitty


Good night J. I must sleep now. I have dragons to slay again tomorrow.
Anonymous Coward
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02/19/2013 03:13 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
All the inane babble about it being the 'End of America' is just made up nonsense from someone who has never read the Act and doesn't have the slightest clue what it actually says.

 Quoting: J 34311994


Some interesting things to think about.

From the Declaration of Independence:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

-----------

Copied from this text under fair use. certain words and phrases ommitted ...

[link to freedom-school.com]

A legal "instrument" is any written document such as a contract, deed, or a lease. An "instrumentality" is the person who is obligated upon and/or by the instrument. When your name is on an instrument called a Social Security Card, voter registration card, or driver's license, you are the instrumentality obligated by that instrument...You are subject to taxation and regulation in the form of traffic fines, user fees, licenses, and so forth.

Have a look at your last 'application' (plead or beg) for a checking account at your Bank. Did you declare that you were a "US Person"? What does that mean? Read the Patriot act and note how it uses the term US Person. What does the term US Person include according to the 'application' you signed?

Maybe you begging for something you don't really want.

[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34311994
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02/19/2013 03:31 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
A legal "instrument" is any written document such as a contract, deed, or a lease. An "instrumentality" is the person who is obligated upon and/or by the instrument.

I know of no legal authority, court or law that defines an 'instrumentality' as 'the person who is obligated upon and/or by the instrument'.

An instrumentality is generally regarded as a means toward an end. Something that serves as an intermediary or agent.

I'm pretty sure your definition is made up.


When your name is on an instrument called a Social Security Card, voter registration card, or driver's license, you are the instrumentality obligated by that instrument...You are subject to taxation and regulation in the form of traffic fines, user fees, licenses, and so forth.


Another fallacy. Jurisdiction for such things as taxation or traffic laws aren't created by social security cards or driver's licenses. But instead, geography. If you're in Maryland, for example, you're subject to the laws of Maryland. If you're in the US, you're subject to the laws of the US.

If you run a red light without a license, you'll be charged with both running a red light and driving without a license. A license isn't a contract.


Have a look at your last 'application' (plead or beg) for a checking account at your Bank. Did you declare that you were a "US Person"? What does that mean? Read the Patriot act and note how it uses the term US Person. What does the term US Person include according to the 'application' you signed?


Again, I think you're just making this up as you're going along. Here's a bank account application. Just click 'open' to start. You'll notice that it asks if you're a US citizen. Not a 'US person'.

These silly syntax arguments are almost always just useless gibberish.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/19/2013 03:32 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
OOps. Forgot the bank account link:

[link to www.chase.com (secure)]

It doesn't say what you claim it does.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/19/2013 08:52 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
f you hold a $20 bill, what exactly is the government obligated to to pay you for? Besides the fiat $20 Federal Reserve Note, what else is the government going to use as payment? Gold? Silver? Shares of Goldman Sachs?

Again, you don't understand how debt instruments work. If you say, buy a municipal bond for $1000 dollars, that doesn't mean that you are now obligated to pay $1000 to the city as the holder of the bond. That means that the city is obligated to pay you as the holder of the bond.

I overstand exactly how debt instruments work. BONDS are not NOTES, you are blending words again. FRNS are issued on BONDS, held by the FEDERAL RESERVE, the debt is owed to the Federal Reserve. And the Government has shit to pay them back with but the Goods and services in the US economy, you have just proven my point

The sovereign citizen folks have, in one of the most obtuse and comical misunderstanding of debt instruments I've ever seen....insisted that since you hold the $1000 municipal bond....that it is YOU that owes the city money.

Exactly, the BONDS issued by Congress are held by the Federal Reserve, whoever holds the NOTES issued on the bonds pledge their goods and services produced with them to the FEDERAL RESERVE at face value.

That's blithering nonsense. Its the city (debtor) that owns the holder (you) a $1000.

Just because you say so does not make it so. You are contradicting yourself, the endorser holds NOT BONDS as FRNS are NOTES, not BONDS. The FED is the creditor and the end user/endorser is the debtor, exactly what SCOTUS points out in the case I linked and posted.


In the case of the dollar, its a debt instrument redeemable for 'lawful money'. Which at the moment, includes another FRN. The FRN transmits actual value and has actual buying power. You could, for example, go down to the local Burger King and trade FRNs for a whopper, or go to best buy and trade them for a big screen TV.

These are currency, lawful money and legal tender in our country. And they most definitely transmit tangible value to the holder of the debt.

But an obligation FROM the holder to PAY a debt? That's useless idiocy. The holder is obligated to do nothing nor owes nothing. He's the person the debt is paid to.

The sovereign citizen folks have it exactly backward.
 Quoting: J 34311994


You have it backwards and you are again, a fucking lair. Anyone can look up the Definition and the way your so called lawful money is produced (from BONDS issued TO the Federal Reserve, and the notes are the markers for that DEBT, the end user and endorser are responsible to pay that debt, hand to hand, does not pay the debt, it creates NEW debt.

Keep on going, you are just digging that hole deeper and deeper and proving I am correct and you are a liar and fuck wit.
Anonymous Coward
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02/19/2013 08:57 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I do understand the person you are saying is all wrong and backward, is wondering what the US gov. will use to make the money, we are forced to use as legal tender, worth what it is suppose to be, or what the gov. passes off as worth a certain denomination of "money."

Its worth what we agree it is...as is all fiat currency.

The person I'm contradicting is asserting that the holder of Federal Reserve Notes now *owes* the denomination. And is now under implied contract to pay it.

Which wrong. Laughably, embarrassingly wrong. The holder of promissory notes is the person the debt is paid to. Not the debt is owed from.

Now you can debate whether the debtor (the US) has anything of value to pay the holder (anyone with a FRN in their pockets). And then we get into the nature of fiat currency, arguments about 'intrinsic value', etc.

But at no point does holding a FRN obligate you to do anything, or transfer any debt TO you. The entire idea is useless nonsense.

And that's the idea that I'm taking apart.
 Quoting: J 34311994


Taking apart? You must mean lying your ass off about. NOTES are NOT BONDS and the court case means the OBLIGATION to pay the DEBT is removed from the US and placed directly on the endorser/end user.

Just as the case I posted points out, the obligations of the DEBT instrument is passed to the user/endorser.

You twisting (lying) about what it is and does, well, is citing yourself, sovereign citizen move, dumbass.
Anonymous Coward
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02/19/2013 09:07 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
"These silly syntax arguments are almost always just useless gibberish." J, the liar.

Yet you use them in nearly every post you write.

Do you really think we cannot see that?

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

Now, clearly, "shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues" means only "federal reserve AGENTS" are authorized to use the notes for such purposes.

Are YOU a "federal reserve agent?" If not, how are you authorized to use FRNS?

Tell me again, who owns the FRNS in your pocket and bank account, J? And are you a federal Reserve agent?

If not, you do not have lawful right to use them for ANY authorized purpose, ignore the law and the questions posed, just like you have in this thread before, ya puta!
Anonymous Coward
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02/19/2013 09:19 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
"But it is plain that bills and notes, whatever they may be called, come very near to identification with the contract that they embody. An indorsement of the paper carries the contract to the indorser. An indorsement in blank passes the debt from hand to hand so that whoever has the paper has the debt."

[link to supreme.justia.com]

Bills and NOTES, fuckface J, not "bonds". Whoever has the paper has the DEBT.

The Government does not owe the debt, the holder and indorser does, that is what the ruling says, your efforts to twist it to include BONDS is ludicrous and stupid.

The DEBT is not owed to YOU it is owed to the ISSUER OF THE NOTE, the Federal Reserve, in order to pay off the BOND.

When YOU or anyone indorses (like Rickman did) you owe the DEBT, that is why the US took Rickman to COURT, to prove HE owed the DEBT to the FEDERAL RESERVE, which they proved because and this is why "The defendant cashed his check and received Federal reserve notes and used them"

He (only after endorsement and use) received lawful money, then claimed he did not, the US, who WAS obligated to pay the DEBT to the FED then took him to court to prove HE owed the debt and the ruling is clear he DID.

You have a very shallow comprehension of law (or as I think, you are just a fuckin liar).

The US takes people to court to prove they owe the DEBT to the Federal Reserve and they win for one reason all they have to prove is a "taxpayer" received and used FRNS and never claimed his right to redeem himself from the obligation to PAY THAT DEBT by demanding lawful money per 12 USC 411.
Vic-chick13

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Canada
02/19/2013 09:29 AM

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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
[link to deanclifford.info]
Dean Clifford update.
hf
Anonymous Coward
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02/19/2013 09:30 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
"Which wrong. Laughably, embarrassingly wrong. The holder of promissory notes is the person the debt is paid to. Not the debt is owed from." Quoting the liar "J".

Listen up, I agree with the above, however, you are lying when you tell me the Government owes me the amount of the note.

The Government did not give me that note, another person did.

That means whoever gave me that note owes me that amount. And since ONLY federal reserve agents are authorized to used FRNS, now you have an issue, J.

When FRNs are used by the public, and it is UNAUTHORIZED by law (12 USC 411 clearly spells that out, even if you choose to accept it as the "LAW" which is exactly what sovereign citizen would do, J) then the US is under no obligation to pay any debt associated with said notes.

The unauthorized endorser and possessor and user of the NOTES are. Since the notes are not being used in a purpose authorized in 12 USC 411, they (the end user) has no protection from the obligation to pay the BOND HOLDER face value plus penalties for their unauthorized USE!

Gotcha, again!

Without "demand for lawful money per 12 USC 411" you are obligated to PAY!!!

Thanks for that, J!!!
Anonymous Coward
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02/19/2013 09:34 AM
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[link to deanclifford.info]
Dean Clifford update.
hf
 Quoting: Vic-chick13


In other words, the endorser is still in jail and the secrets of how he is to be released cannot be spoken about.

Unless and until he can prove he has not pledged himself to the DEBT owed by society (he has not redeemed via demanded lawful money from Central banks) he will keep going and staying in jail

Sorry to say, but he needs to know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is not the WAY.

prayers to him that he might be free.
Anonymous Coward
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02/19/2013 10:45 AM
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[link to deanclifford.info]
Dean Clifford update.
hf
 Quoting: Vic-chick13


In other words, the endorser is still in jail and the secrets of how he is to be released cannot be spoken about.

Unless and until he can prove he has not pledged himself to the DEBT owed by society (he has not redeemed via demanded lawful money from Central banks) he will keep going and staying in jail

Sorry to say, but he needs to know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is not the WAY.

prayers to him that he might be free.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288
You are going to lose, you wanna do time like Jim. Listen very carefully to what Jim is saying.
Anonymous Coward
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02/19/2013 11:02 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
OOps. Forgot the bank account link:

[link to www.chase.com (secure)]

It doesn't say what you claim it does.
 Quoting: J 34311994


The application you linked to may not contain the language - but I can assure you that I have seen more than one application from both a bank and a credit union that does use that language.

I first noticed this weirdness because I was moving life savings from one CD to another CD to get a better interest rate and I have seen it at more than one bank / credit union.

--------------------

The book I linked to has the 'instrumentality' language. I would agree with the author that if you sign an instrument, you could be obligated by that instrument - whatever you want to call it...

From the 14th Amendment.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States..."

You should also look up "Bills of Attainder.

Patriot act is here in volume 115 - 2001 - Starts on page 272.

Look at page 351!!! -paragraph 3. The language is almost surreal.

[link to constitution.org]
Anonymous Coward
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02/19/2013 11:43 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
From page 87

Thread: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul (Page 87)

This thread has been running for over 2 years, people have been demanding lawful money and getting full tax returns for over 10 years in some cases.

And the Federal reserve jock strap hangers are still here posting "someday" the IRS is going to come back on you guys.

Well, they have not done it, in fact more people are getting returns every year and not even a word about 12 USC 411 on the IRS frivolous arguments page has come up.

Whatever you want to say about it, THAT speaks volumes. The 1099 OID thing lasted just over a year till the IRS started hitting people with frivolous filing fees AND criminal prosecution.

The Ted Turner Republic did not even last as long at this thread and he is in the FEDERAL pen.

The Liberty dollar founder too.

The Las Vegas gold coin payer was found guilty in a second trial with new charges of tax evasion.

David M has been all over Quatloos for years and there are some connected people on there that would love to get David on any charge possible, yet NOTHING has been done to anyone.

In fact, it is the exact opposite, the IRS has been not only silent on the question, they have stopped cold from freezing bank accounts and "fines" from people who have tried other methods of "tax relief".

2 years and counting folks. The shillery clinton teams are DOA on this.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288
J
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02/19/2013 12:17 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I overstand exactly how debt instruments work. BONDS are not NOTES, you are blending words again. FRNS are issued on BONDS, held by the FEDERAL RESERVE, the debt is owed to the Federal Reserve. And the Government has shit to pay them back with but the Goods and services in the US economy, you have just proven my point

No, you don't 'overstand'. Again, read the ruling. It explicitly applies the same logic for promissory notes as it does bonds as it does mortgages. You've simply blundered, reversing the obligation of debt from the debtor to the holder of the debt. Like assuming that if you take out a mortgage to buy a house, that the bank has to pay YOU every month.

Your reasoning is nonsense. There is no contractual obligation for the holder of a FRN. There is no passage of obligation for them to pay anything by holding the FRN. The holder of the note is the person who gets paid. Not the person who has to pay.

You got it backwards. You simply don’t know how debt instruments work. Not bonds, not mortgages, not promissory notes.

Exactly, the BONDS issued by Congress are held by the Federal Reserve, whoever holds the NOTES issued on the bonds pledge their goods and services produced with them to the FEDERAL RESERVE at face value.

You’ve *still* got it backwards. You do not owe the city a $1000 if you are the holder of a $1000 municipal bond. The holder of the bond (or mortgage, or promissory note) is the person who gets paid. Not the person who has to pay.

I can’t stress this point enough…but you don’t have a *clue* what you’re talking about. FRNs don’t involve any contractual obligation on the part of the holder. None. FRNs involve no obligation to pay anything on the part of the holder. None.

The holder is the person that the debtor has to pay money *to*. Not the other way around. Like so many of your ‘sovereign citizen’ folks before you, you’ve imagined a nonsense version of debt instruments that is convenient to your argument…

....but utterly irrelevant to the real world.
J
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02/19/2013 12:28 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Listen up, I agree with the above, however, you are lying when you tell me the Government owes me the amount of the note.

FRNs are redeemable for other FRNs. If you have an older bill and you want a newer one, you can get one. The purchasing power isn't in the paper, its in the value they transmit as placeholders. If an older bill gets worn out, a new one can take its place. As Federal Reserve Notes are lawful money.

FRNs are a liability of the Federal Reserve ultimately backed by the full faith and credit of the US. They in *no* way create obligations to do anything by the holders of such bills. They don't establish any jurisdiction, they don't obligate the holder to pay anything.

There isn't a single part of this you soveriegn citizen guys got right. I mean, the law of averages alone would mandate that by chance, you'd eventually be accurate on accident. But its like you guys study these issues to find the truth...

...and then avoid it like it were on fire.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/19/2013 12:37 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Well, they have not done it, in fact more people are getting returns every year and not even a word about 12 USC 411 on the IRS frivolous arguments page has come up.

And when you ask exactly who these 'more people' are, with evidence to back it up....suddenly things get really, really vague. I posed the same question in the 'you don't have to pay taxes' thread and they avoided my question fastidiously.

Which, as the poster has said....'speaks volumes'.

Even logically, it doesn't make the slightest sense. Why would demanding 'redemption for lawful money' magically make you immune from income taxes? No court has ever recognized this. Nor are Title 12 and Title 26 particularly related.

That would be like insisting that if you demand that your driver's license photo be retaken, you don't have to pay sales tax anymore. It just doesn't follow.

This point made especially clear when you take into account that FRNs are recognized as lawful money by the courts. You can redeem an FRN for another FRN.

And what does that have to do with income tax obligation?

Not a thing. Its a nonsense argument. With the beneficiaries being the eternally nebulous 'more people'. Which apparently includes Elvis, JFK, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/19/2013 12:47 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Taking apart? You must mean lying your ass off about. NOTES are NOT BONDS and the court case means the OBLIGATION to pay the DEBT is removed from the US and placed directly on the endorser/end user.

No, it doesn't. You don't know what you're talking about.

The holder of the debt doesn't owe anything. They are the one that gets paid. Its the *debtor* that has to pay. That's how debt instruments work.

You blundered and mixed up the holder of the debt and the debtor.....and are now stuck polishing that turd. Holding a federal reserve note doesn't obligate you to do a thing. It doesn't pass to you any obligation to pay anything.

A FRN is bank note, which is a type of promissory note. Killing your 'its not a note its a bond' argument. Worse, the court case you're citing applies the same rules to bonds, promissory notes and mortgages. And in NONE of those cases is the holder of the debt instrument the one who pays.

But instead, the one who gets paid.

You blundered. Badly. Laughably. And watching you furiously trying to polish your turd of an argument just keeps the yucks rolling. Learn even the *basics* of debt instruments and then come on back.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/19/2013 12:52 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The application you linked to may not contain the language - but I can assure you that I have seen more than one application from both a bank and a credit union that does use that language.

I first noticed this weirdness because I was moving life savings from one CD to another CD to get a better interest rate and I have seen it at more than one bank / credit union.


You 'assure' me, huh? The evidence contradicts your claims. Claims which are backed by nothing but you citing yourself.

Given that you were wrong on the meaning of 'instrumentality', you were wrong on social security cards creating jurisdiction and obligation to pay taxes, you were wrong on driver's licenses creating jurisdiction to apply traffic laws and you were wrong on the wording of a bank account application...

....I'm gonna have to go with the evidence on this one. Not you.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/19/2013 01:02 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
You should also look up "Bills of Attainder.

Patriot act is here in volume 115 - 2001 - Starts on page 272.

Look at page 351!!! -paragraph 3. The language is almost surreal.


You're not going to see me defending the Patriot Act. I'm not a big fan.

Nor relating it to anything we're discussing in terms of 'sovereign citizens' or their pseudo-legal gibberish. As I mentioned to Miss late last night...I'm picking my battles.

And the idiocy of the Patriot Act is a thread unto itself. But not a theme I'll be discussing in this one unless it has immediate relevance to the 'sovereign citizen' arguments.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/19/2013 01:06 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Unless and until he can prove he has not pledged himself to the DEBT owed by society (he has not redeemed via demanded lawful money from Central banks) he will keep going and staying in jail

'pledging one's self to the debt owed by society' is not a benchmark of any law in Canada or the US. Its just another made up 'loop' that the sovereign citizen folks have made up that they believe the government limited buy.

Nope. It isn't.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/19/2013 01:48 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I overstand exactly how debt instruments work. BONDS are not NOTES, you are blending words again. FRNS are issued on BONDS, held by the FEDERAL RESERVE, the debt is owed to the Federal Reserve. And the Government has shit to pay them back with but the Goods and services in the US economy, you have just proven my point

No, you don't 'overstand'. Again, read the ruling. It explicitly applies the same logic for promissory notes as it does bonds as it does mortgages. You've simply blundered, reversing the obligation of debt from the debtor to the holder of the debt. Like assuming that if you take out a mortgage to buy a house, that the bank has to pay YOU every month.

Your reasoning is nonsense. There is no contractual obligation for the holder of a FRN. There is no passage of obligation for them to pay anything by holding the FRN. The holder of the note is the person who gets paid. Not the person who has to pay.

You got it backwards. You simply don’t know how debt instruments work. Not bonds, not mortgages, not promissory notes.

Exactly, the BONDS issued by Congress are held by the Federal Reserve, whoever holds the NOTES issued on the bonds pledge their goods and services produced with them to the FEDERAL RESERVE at face value.

You’ve *still* got it backwards. You do not owe the city a $1000 if you are the holder of a $1000 municipal bond. The holder of the bond (or mortgage, or promissory note) is the person who gets paid. Not the person who has to pay.

I can’t stress this point enough…but you don’t have a *clue* what you’re talking about. FRNs don’t involve any contractual obligation on the part of the holder. None. FRNs involve no obligation to pay anything on the part of the holder. None.

The holder is the person that the debtor has to pay money *to*. Not the other way around. Like so many of your ‘sovereign citizen’ folks before you, you’ve imagined a nonsense version of debt instruments that is convenient to your argument…

....but utterly irrelevant to the real world.
 Quoting: J 34311994


Prove it, fucker. You are again, citing YOURSELF, stop posting YOUR OPINION and prove the Government owes ME for every FRN I have every touched, earned or possessed.

You, again, are not providing one damn citation, you giving your OPINION without cites.

CITE or shut the fuck up.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/19/2013 01:49 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Unless and until he can prove he has not pledged himself to the DEBT owed by society (he has not redeemed via demanded lawful money from Central banks) he will keep going and staying in jail

'pledging one's self to the debt owed by society' is not a benchmark of any law in Canada or the US. Its just another made up 'loop' that the sovereign citizen folks have made up that they believe the government limited buy.

Nope. It isn't.
 Quoting: J 34311994


The fuck it ain't you do not pay, you go to prison "until you pay your debt to society".

Again, you are citing your OPINION as LAW and I am calling You on your BULLSHIT, prove it!

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