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Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

 
Diluted
User ID: 14657277
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02/13/2013 03:08 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The dock signs your birth certificate simply because that is
what the ship is tied to, you will need a dock to sign your
birth certificate.
 Quoting: Zuzu


now you know why Obama doesn't have one
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34303862


MIND = BLOWN

I just got mail about how they want to start garnishing my wages for loans, student loans, from a poor choice I did with a for-profit-anyone-can-join college.

I'm thinking of fighting it using this tactic. Just how I beat the "running red light" ticket...

Just where it has all the paper to sign, check, attach, request hearing I'll just write:

NULL AND VOID
VIOLATION OF NO DUE PROCESS

(Then I'll just cite Organic Act, Maritime Law, Strawman - and I, Xxxx XxXxx, Do not recognize XXXXX XXXXX The bearer of this loan.

??
Anonymous Coward
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02/13/2013 03:10 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
One FIRST HAS TO recognize WHOM you are addressing in the court room/local,state, federal 'governments' are ALL CORPORATIONS, disguising themselves as governments AND, using the power/excuse of CONTRACT LAW in the courts THEY control, to control YOU !

First they must dehumanize you to a 'non-entity, fictional person', etc. to put you on their CORPORATE LEVEL by sending you an ALL CAPITAL summons, letter and/or reading your name in court and asking IF that person is here. If you answer up, the word person in legalize MEANS you have reduced yourself to their level OF fictions person, NON entity ! Now your playing THEIR GAME, and they can treat you as such, by their CORPORATE law system.

There are many ways around this AND you can have any charge except assault or murder DROPPED, by simply confirming that minutes are being taken, and then saying, " I am a beneficiary of the Trust "as explained by a judge of 13 years on the bench who researched it and posted same on the net under the title of.....
" The Matrix and the U.S. Constitution ". Read it and GET an EDUCATION !

Eagle
 Quoting: Eagle # 1 7633733


Here is a true story;

I had criminal charges laid against me, and a summons was issued for me to appear in court...

When the officer from court services came to deliver the summons, I met her in the driveway...

I signed both copies of the summons, and gave one back to her... She was confused, called a superior, and left...

I also went in to court on the day the summons indicated... Got the crown attorney's attention before court started, and put a copy of my summons in front of her, and walked out...

This was 9 years ago - not heard a word since... been stopped a few times, and given traffic violation tickets, been across boder, got a passport... Nothing, nada has popped up on the radar screen...

All court issues are financial - a public debt has been drawn up, and it has to be settled... This is in reality, the only issue... Doing it immediately on the summons is valid, because it is your credit, and you are endorsing it back to them for settlement...

However, if you run it through the courts, then you have dirivatives, making it impossible to settle any other way then time, or time and capital...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Good Job! No conflict, no case. You simply allowed them to "credit" their accounts with your endorsement of the "charges"!

I have done the same many, many times by simply writing the courts a promissory note, payable about 10 decades in the future. Works every single time.

Agree quickly with thine adversary. Let them assume the DEBT they are claiming you owe! Brilliant move in the world of FIAT money!! Give them the signature "Backing" and they are done!!

Love it!!!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17551129
Canada
02/13/2013 03:11 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
citizens, and as joint tenants in the sovereignty."
Chisholm v. Georgia - 2 U.S. 419 (1793)


Resources for further study:
-sedm.org
-1215.org
-teamlaw.org
-Rob Menard
-Dean Clifford (who is currently being held in jail as a political prisoner)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288
Nobody knows what they are talking about on this thread? Speak for yourself.

Dean Clifford is in jail and has been numerous times because he is still endorsing the private credit of international bankers. Same with Rob, teamlaw and 1215.

You endorse their debt system and do not play by their rules, you are sunk.

ONLY (and I do mean ONLY) the suitors who are redeeming lawful money are consistently winning against the IRS, local courts and more importantly, avoiding them all together.

If you are not demanding your redemption as spelled out in 12 USC 411 and try what others are doing, you will be in the same place as Dean Clifford, Ted Turner and all the rest of the "trust" "sovereign" gurus.

Thread: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul


Your either a complete morAn or a government troll. My post here is the only one worth reading. The lawfull money arguement has been destroyed in court many times. Federal Reserve Notes are 100% lawfull and legal. U keep on going about the public debt. ALL DEBTS ARE OWED TO THE CREDITORS. WHO THEN IS THE CREDITOR? I'LL GIVE U A HINT IT'S THE PEOPLE


In my research of over 15 years - this is the conclusion I have drawn as well...

The deficits of all the industrialized countries, are in fact credit owed to it's citizens... lawful money, meaning money earned by labour, when spent into the economy produces a dividend, a reserve...

The Canadian "Bills of Exchange Act" clearly states - a crossed cheque is a dividend warrant...

The devil though is in the details - how exactly do we redeem our credit???


The first step is to record your demand for said redemption.

NOTICE is ALWAYS the first step. Once your notice and demand is recorded, you keep demanding it.

This is the ONLY way for anyone in a "debtor" nation to become a creditor. This is the major flaw in Clifford and many other BS sovereign citizen claims. Pledging labor does not make you (legally) a creditor, it makes you a peon or share cropper.

When I demand my "pay check" for anything, labor, ideas, et al be redeemed in lawful money per 12 USC 411, I am telling the government "YOU owe me this amount of lawful money" and I want it, its now a matter of public record.

They do not give it to me, they give me US Notes (you see them as Federal Reserve Notes) that are worthless, the government still owes me my money, therefore, I am, in legal and lawful terms, its CREDITOR.

The stupid idea that I can go into a bankruptcy court and claim "creditor" or "beneficiary" status to a trust that I have never accessed via my demand for lawful money per 12 USC 411 AND a reservation of rights on every contractual agreement between my person and the Government is not a legally viable stand.

That is why the Gurus end up in jail all the time, they are standing on legal ground they have not accessed by obeying the law of the land.


I understand your using lawful money issue, and although that may alleviate the federal tax issue - it does not answer the issue of redeeming the credit you have built up...

It is the redemption of credit, that I am after... It has far more value then gains I might have from not paying federal taxes...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17551129
Canada
02/13/2013 03:12 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The above post...

Sorry, quoting messed up...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 169265
United States
02/13/2013 03:15 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
United States Contract Law


Statute of Frauds

Ordinarily, contracts do not have to be in writing to be enforceable. However, certain types of contracts do have to be reduced to writing to be enforceable, to prevent frauds and perjuries, hence the name statute of frauds, which also makes it not a misnomer (fraud need not be present to implicate the statute of frauds).
[edit]Types of Contracts Implicated
Typically the following types of contracts implicate the statute of frauds:
Land, including leases over a year and easements
Suretyships (promises to answer for the debts, defaults, or miscarriages of another)
Consideration of marriage (not to actually get married but to give a dowry, for example)
Goods over a certain amount of money (usually $500, as in the UCC)
Contracts that cannot be performed within one year
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7043507


Simply put, Federal Reserve NOTES are private property. They are property of the Federal Reserve member banks, their use is defined in Title 12 of the Federal Code.

The owner of the FRN is clearly posted on it, the Seal of the Federal Reserve is there, the boarders are well defined. They are not YOURS, you are using them, that implies contract. Your signature (endorsement) on any NOTE or bank transaction assumes the use of the Federal Reserve.

That is consensual and voluntary endorsement of a private company (The Federal Reserve).

It is a contract and nothing is compelling you to do it. 12 USC 411 clearly spells out you have the right to demand lawful money in ALL your transactions.

That is legal, lawful and contractual, you endorse and use their property, you owe them a fee AND agree to pay by their rules.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


Understood. Thanks for the patience and the very articulate explanation. No easy way around it then. Unless you go off and live in the wilderness...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7043507


No true my proxy posting friend! Read this thread, you will get it.

Thread: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul

Learn to control your contractual endorsements and demand lawful money per 12 USC 411, it really is pretty simple and sound legally.

"Without prejudice" Peace.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


Stop misleading people, you're feeding the gullible.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/13/2013 03:18 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
citizens, and as joint tenants in the sovereignty."
Chisholm v. Georgia - 2 U.S. 419 (1793)


Resources for further study:
-sedm.org
-1215.org
-teamlaw.org
-Rob Menard
-Dean Clifford (who is currently being held in jail as a political prisoner)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288
Nobody knows what they are talking about on this thread? Speak for yourself.

Dean Clifford is in jail and has been numerous times because he is still endorsing the private credit of international bankers. Same with Rob, teamlaw and 1215.

You endorse their debt system and do not play by their rules, you are sunk.

ONLY (and I do mean ONLY) the suitors who are redeeming lawful money are consistently winning against the IRS, local courts and more importantly, avoiding them all together.

If you are not demanding your redemption as spelled out in 12 USC 411 and try what others are doing, you will be in the same place as Dean Clifford, Ted Turner and all the rest of the "trust" "sovereign" gurus.

Thread: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Your either a complete morAn or a government troll. My post here is the only one worth reading. The lawfull money arguement has been destroyed in court many times. Federal Reserve Notes are 100% lawfull and legal. U keep on going about the public debt. ALL DEBTS ARE OWED TO THE CREDITORS. WHO THEN IS THE CREDITOR? I'LL GIVE U A HINT IT'S THE PEOPLE


In my research of over 15 years - this is the conclusion I have drawn as well...

The deficits of all the industrialized countries, are in fact credit owed to it's citizens... lawful money, meaning money earned by labour, when spent into the economy produces a dividend, a reserve...

The Canadian "Bills of Exchange Act" clearly states - a crossed cheque is a dividend warrant...

The devil though is in the details - how exactly do we redeem our credit???


The first step is to record your demand for said redemption.

NOTICE is ALWAYS the first step. Once your notice and demand is recorded, you keep demanding it.

This is the ONLY way for anyone in a "debtor" nation to become a creditor. This is the major flaw in Clifford and many other BS sovereign citizen claims. Pledging labor does not make you (legally) a creditor, it makes you a peon or share cropper.

When I demand my "pay check" for anything, labor, ideas, et al be redeemed in lawful money per 12 USC 411, I am telling the government "YOU owe me this amount of lawful money" and I want it, its now a matter of public record.

They do not give it to me, they give me US Notes (you see them as Federal Reserve Notes) that are worthless, the government still owes me my money, therefore, I am, in legal and lawful terms, its CREDITOR.

The stupid idea that I can go into a bankruptcy court and claim "creditor" or "beneficiary" status to a trust that I have never accessed via my demand for lawful money per 12 USC 411 AND a reservation of rights on every contractual agreement between my person and the Government is not a legally viable stand.

That is why the Gurus end up in jail all the time, they are standing on legal ground they have not accessed by obeying the law of the land.


I understand your using lawful money issue, and although that may alleviate the federal tax issue - it does not answer the issue of redeeming the credit you have built up...

It is the redemption of credit, that I am after... It has far more value then gains I might have from not paying federal taxes...


After you make your demand for lawful money, get your accounting of your "value" give notice in Federal court to the Comptroller of currency, the Treasury et al, get a default judgement.

Then file your UCC forms about the outstanding debt you are owed and stand in line, behind China and about 5 million others also demanding your Government pay its debts.

David M has done it, it is a matter of public record.

Simple, but you still will not "get paid" you will only have legal proof they owe YOU not the other way around.

Welcome to the real world of fiat money and international finance.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/13/2013 03:19 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The above post...

Sorry, quoting messed up...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Yeah, mine too, I did not edit it. Sorry for the confusing quotes.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/13/2013 03:20 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The people are self governing by the common law, grand juries, indictments, jury trials.

The gov. is self governed by rules, regulation, codes, statutes, and administrative courts (this is what most are referring to when they talk about maritime law.)

Statutes only apply to government



No, Statutes apply to people too. For example: Title 18 of the USC. Its where you find your murder, theft and robbery prohibitions. And they most definitely apply to people. The idea that Title 18 only applies to the government and not to the citizens is nonsense. It absolutely applies to citizens and is enforced daily.

Second, 'government' isn't a single body. But has multiple layers. The federal government is governed directly by the constitution, which defines the federal government's powers. The States governments are separate and don't have their powers defined by the constitution. Which the 10th amendment makes really clear.

They each have their own legal authority, their own police powers, with largely overlapping jurisdiction. As jurisdiction is most commonly applied *geographically*. If you're in Delaware for example, the laws of Delaware apply to you. It really doesn't matter if what you call yourself, or what the font size is on your birth certificate or if you use Federal Reserve Notes. If you mug somebody and they catch you....you're going to jail.


DOWNES v. BIDWELL, 182 U.S. 244 (1901)


DOWNES v. BIDWELL is about whether or not newly annexed territories fall under the 'uniform excise' limitations in the constitution. These territories are the 'maintained by Congress outside and independently of that instrument' that the ruling is referring to.

You seem to be trying to apply that standard to the entire country....and that doesn't work. As the ruling clearly defines what it applies to and under what circumstance. You removing the statement from context and arbitrarily applying it where ever you'd like doesn't mean that the courts are obliged to follow your new application.

And most relevant....you're citing the dissenting opinion of Justice Harlan. Not the majority of the court where the authority of the judiciary lays. The dissenting opinion has no legal authority. Which you either know...or should know. And really need to include in these citations.

That's the folly of just lifting these grand block quotes from random bloggers without reading the cases yourself. And almost no one here has read any case they're citing, or has the slightest clue what the citations are in reference to.

Which would explain their gross misunderstandings of how the law actually works.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14657277
United States
02/13/2013 03:21 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
citizens, and as joint tenants in the sovereignty."
Chisholm v. Georgia - 2 U.S. 419 (1793)


Resources for further study:
-sedm.org
-1215.org
-teamlaw.org
-Rob Menard
-Dean Clifford (who is currently being held in jail as a political prisoner)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288
Nobody knows what they are talking about on this thread? Speak for yourself.

Dean Clifford is in jail and has been numerous times because he is still endorsing the private credit of international bankers. Same with Rob, teamlaw and 1215.

You endorse their debt system and do not play by their rules, you are sunk.

ONLY (and I do mean ONLY) the suitors who are redeeming lawful money are consistently winning against the IRS, local courts and more importantly, avoiding them all together.

If you are not demanding your redemption as spelled out in 12 USC 411 and try what others are doing, you will be in the same place as Dean Clifford, Ted Turner and all the rest of the "trust" "sovereign" gurus.

Thread: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Your either a complete morAn or a government troll. My post here is the only one worth reading. The lawfull money arguement has been destroyed in court many times. Federal Reserve Notes are 100% lawfull and legal. U keep on going about the public debt. ALL DEBTS ARE OWED TO THE CREDITORS. WHO THEN IS THE CREDITOR? I'LL GIVE U A HINT IT'S THE PEOPLE


In my research of over 15 years - this is the conclusion I have drawn as well...

The deficits of all the industrialized countries, are in fact credit owed to it's citizens... lawful money, meaning money earned by labour, when spent into the economy produces a dividend, a reserve...

The Canadian "Bills of Exchange Act" clearly states - a crossed cheque is a dividend warrant...

The devil though is in the details - how exactly do we redeem our credit???


The first step is to record your demand for said redemption.

NOTICE is ALWAYS the first step. Once your notice and demand is recorded, you keep demanding it.

This is the ONLY way for anyone in a "debtor" nation to become a creditor. This is the major flaw in Clifford and many other BS sovereign citizen claims. Pledging labor does not make you (legally) a creditor, it makes you a peon or share cropper.

When I demand my "pay check" for anything, labor, ideas, et al be redeemed in lawful money per 12 USC 411, I am telling the government "YOU owe me this amount of lawful money" and I want it, its now a matter of public record.

They do not give it to me, they give me US Notes (you see them as Federal Reserve Notes) that are worthless, the government still owes me my money, therefore, I am, in legal and lawful terms, its CREDITOR.

The stupid idea that I can go into a bankruptcy court and claim "creditor" or "beneficiary" status to a trust that I have never accessed via my demand for lawful money per 12 USC 411 AND a reservation of rights on every contractual agreement between my person and the Government is not a legally viable stand.

That is why the Gurus end up in jail all the time, they are standing on legal ground they have not accessed by obeying the law of the land.


I understand your using lawful money issue, and although that may alleviate the federal tax issue - it does not answer the issue of redeeming the credit you have built up...

It is the redemption of credit, that I am after... It has far more value then gains I might have from not paying federal taxes...


NICE.

So if I went to my BANK RIGHT NOW AND DID THIS

Would I get a US Note instead of FRN? Red Seal and all?

If I went in with a notarized letter and cut and pasted some highlighted laws from the other thread, etc.
Opie
User ID: 2347104
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02/13/2013 03:22 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I know of a sovereign freedom fighter, he was fighting the seat belt law in California, it had been about a year for his speedy trial. He was the one that told me that the the US flag in the courts is really the Navy flag.

The last time I head from him was about the radiation in milk and take your shoes off before going into the house. Don't eat the tomatoes at one time, he was to get back to me this about ten months ago. I think he afraid for his family.

He was on a US sub and learn about radiation there.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
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02/13/2013 03:22 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
...


Simply put, Federal Reserve NOTES are private property. They are property of the Federal Reserve member banks, their use is defined in Title 12 of the Federal Code.

The owner of the FRN is clearly posted on it, the Seal of the Federal Reserve is there, the boarders are well defined. They are not YOURS, you are using them, that implies contract. Your signature (endorsement) on any NOTE or bank transaction assumes the use of the Federal Reserve.

That is consensual and voluntary endorsement of a private company (The Federal Reserve).

It is a contract and nothing is compelling you to do it. 12 USC 411 clearly spells out you have the right to demand lawful money in ALL your transactions.

That is legal, lawful and contractual, you endorse and use their property, you owe them a fee AND agree to pay by their rules.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


Understood. Thanks for the patience and the very articulate explanation. No easy way around it then. Unless you go off and live in the wilderness...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7043507


No true my proxy posting friend! Read this thread, you will get it.

Thread: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul

Learn to control your contractual endorsements and demand lawful money per 12 USC 411, it really is pretty simple and sound legally.

"Without prejudice" Peace.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288


Stop misleading people, you're feeding the gullible.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 169265


I am not forcing you to do a damn thing, and you are getting exactly what you pay for at GLP! You want to give legal advise, become an attorney, clearly there are not enough of them.

Due diligence.
THE Professor !
User ID: 7633733
United States
02/13/2013 03:22 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
AC 34391143 .... YOU have NEVER read The Matrix and the U.S. Constitution, as evidenced by your 'remarks' above. It DOES go back to 1213 when a FRENCH Catholic , on the English throne, gave away all lands/possessions then owned by England, AND any FUTURE lands to the Pope, for absolution of his sins in a 'TRUST" that has NEVER been changed ! USA was a future land !

Read the Matrix .... then come back and tell me YOU can change history, trusts between ancient monarchs and I will say you ARE certifiably insane !
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/13/2013 03:24 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
citizens, and as joint tenants in the sovereignty."
Chisholm v. Georgia - 2 U.S. 419 (1793)


Resources for further study:
-sedm.org
-1215.org
-teamlaw.org
-Rob Menard
-Dean Clifford (who is currently being held in jail as a political prisoner)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31297288
Nobody knows what they are talking about on this thread? Speak for yourself.

Dean Clifford is in jail and has been numerous times because he is still endorsing the private credit of international bankers. Same with Rob, teamlaw and 1215.

You endorse their debt system and do not play by their rules, you are sunk.

ONLY (and I do mean ONLY) the suitors who are redeeming lawful money are consistently winning against the IRS, local courts and more importantly, avoiding them all together.

If you are not demanding your redemption as spelled out in 12 USC 411 and try what others are doing, you will be in the same place as Dean Clifford, Ted Turner and all the rest of the "trust" "sovereign" gurus.

Thread: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Your either a complete morAn or a government troll. My post here is the only one worth reading. The lawfull money arguement has been destroyed in court many times. Federal Reserve Notes are 100% lawfull and legal. U keep on going about the public debt. ALL DEBTS ARE OWED TO THE CREDITORS. WHO THEN IS THE CREDITOR? I'LL GIVE U A HINT IT'S THE PEOPLE
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14657277


In my research of over 15 years - this is the conclusion I have drawn as well...

The deficits of all the industrialized countries, are in fact credit owed to it's citizens... lawful money, meaning money earned by labour, when spent into the economy produces a dividend, a reserve...

The Canadian "Bills of Exchange Act" clearly states - a crossed cheque is a dividend warrant...

The devil though is in the details - how exactly do we redeem our credit???


The first step is to record your demand for said redemption.

NOTICE is ALWAYS the first step. Once your notice and demand is recorded, you keep demanding it.

This is the ONLY way for anyone in a "debtor" nation to become a creditor. This is the major flaw in Clifford and many other BS sovereign citizen claims. Pledging labor does not make you (legally) a creditor, it makes you a peon or share cropper.

When I demand my "pay check" for anything, labor, ideas, et al be redeemed in lawful money per 12 USC 411, I am telling the government "YOU owe me this amount of lawful money" and I want it, its now a matter of public record.

They do not give it to me, they give me US Notes (you see them as Federal Reserve Notes) that are worthless, the government still owes me my money, therefore, I am, in legal and lawful terms, its CREDITOR.

The stupid idea that I can go into a bankruptcy court and claim "creditor" or "beneficiary" status to a trust that I have never accessed via my demand for lawful money per 12 USC 411 AND a reservation of rights on every contractual agreement between my person and the Government is not a legally viable stand.

That is why the Gurus end up in jail all the time, they are standing on legal ground they have not accessed by obeying the law of the land.


I understand your using lawful money issue, and although that may alleviate the federal tax issue - it does not answer the issue of redeeming the credit you have built up...

It is the redemption of credit, that I am after... It has far more value then gains I might have from not paying federal taxes...


NICE.

So if I went to my BANK RIGHT NOW AND DID THIS

Would I get a US Note instead of FRN? Red Seal and all?

If I went in with a notarized letter and cut and pasted some highlighted laws from the other thread, etc.


The other thread has all the info on where the US Treasury Notes are and how to prove you are accessing and using them!

www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1304915/pg1
Anonymous Coward
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Canada
02/13/2013 03:25 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Sorry, I have to leave for work now...

Have to go earn some lawful money ... LOL

Check back in a few hours - this thread is interesting...
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/13/2013 03:25 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
United State Code Title 12 is the regulation. The contract is between Congress (the US) and the Federal Reserve Bank. I cited that source earlier, again, your opinion and ignorance, not mine. Are you seriously implying in your posts there is no contract between the US and the Federal Reserve?


You did cite Title 12....it just didn't say what you claimed it did. You argued that the use of Federal Reserve dollars created an 'implied contract' that granted the government jurisdiction over you.

Title 12 never said this. You did, citing yourself. And you don't know what you're talking about.

Either cite the section of Title 12 that states that the use of Federal Reserve Dollars is an 'implied contract' that grants the government jurisdiction over you....or admit that you're just making this up as you go along.

You citing yourself *as* Title 12 doesn't mean a thing.
Anonymous Coward
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02/13/2013 03:33 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
United State Code Title 12 is the regulation. The contract is between Congress (the US) and the Federal Reserve Bank. I cited that source earlier, again, your opinion and ignorance, not mine. Are you seriously implying in your posts there is no contract between the US and the Federal Reserve?


You did cite Title 12....it just didn't say what you claimed it did. You argued that the use of Federal Reserve dollars created an 'implied contract' that granted the government jurisdiction over you.

Title 12 never said this. You did, citing yourself. And you don't know what you're talking about.

Either cite the section of Title 12 that states that the use of Federal Reserve Dollars is an 'implied contract' that grants the government jurisdiction over you....or admit that you're just making this up as you go along.

You citing yourself *as* Title 12 doesn't mean a thing.
 Quoting: J 34311994


I am citing the contract between congress and the Federal Reserve.

Title 12 is the regulating body (congress/US administrative side) of the contract. All contracts are governed by ACTS when it comes to congress.

Congressmen and women do not officially make contracts for themselves, they RE-PRESENT their respective constituents, the PEOPLE. They make agreements with private companies.

However, the PEOPLE are NOT obligated to enjoin themselves with every single contract their Representatives sign on for.

The adhesion to the Federal Reserve Contract relies on 12 USC 411, it is the OPT OUT option for the people.

Simply put, if you do not OPT OUT per 12 USC 411, you are presumed and assumed to be "IN".

There was money long before the Federal Reserve and there still is, you are either using public money or you are using Federal Reserve money (that is the fact) you can huff and puff all you like, but the contract is in place as is 12 USC 411.

Suck it.
C74R1TY-44

User ID: 12462480
United States
02/13/2013 03:37 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
are generalizations ever accurate portrayals?
The storm is closing in to begin again from the beginning. Never sitting through my waking life oblivious. The ignorance running rampant through the city is indicative of something worse; this picture isn't pretty.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 7633733
United States
02/13/2013 03:39 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
GREAT POST, AC 31735180 about Great Britain and the Pope owning most of the world. Backs up my post about the US Judges story contained in The Matrix and the U.S. Constitution.

Very few know about this and the judge said he spent a long time reading/figuring this out, before posting his HISTORICAL information.

Let the government/CORPORATE shills continue to deny the true history AND that corporate entities rule us by legal trickery of words only their BAR ( British Attorney Registry ) know.

Education of the masses is a VERY hard road to travel. As an ex teacher, of 27 years I certainly spent a lot of time in the trenches. With the LIES OPENLY fostered on these uneducated masses today, by government, local, state and federal AND their having the media all 'in their pocket/PAID OFF, it'a tough row to hoe !
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1243271
United States
02/13/2013 03:44 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The term Sovereign Citizen has been hijacked by nutjobs...

[link to www.nola.com]

7 suspects in St. John deputy shootings are tied to violent anti-government group

When Tennessee authorities arrived at a trailer park in suburban Nashville to serve a search warrant on a suspected child molester last November, they did not find the man they had come for. Instead, they found a Buick stolen from Nebraska, a small arsenal of weapons and a stack of a papers that led them to believe their suspect was affiliated with a violent, anti-government "sovereign citizens" organization.

Thread: The Louisiana shootings - more than meets the eye?
Shingen

User ID: 33279727
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02/13/2013 03:46 PM

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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
As long as agents of the State hold a monopoly on the initiation of force, the legal right to kidnap, incarcerate, and confiscate, and the ability to print money at will, then all 'sovereign' legal arguments are irrelevant and pointless.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/13/2013 03:47 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

There is enough information on the DEAL congress made with the Federal Reserve to keep anyone busy for a long, long time.

There is NO law that requires anyone to accept or use Federal Reserve Notes:

Here the cite for that, since I have been accused of "citing myself".

[link to www.treasury.gov]

Quoting from the above: "There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services."

Now from here: [link to www.investopedia.com]

"Investopedia explains 'Lawful Money'
Oddly enough, the dollar bills that we carry around in our wallets are not considered lawful money. The notation on the bottom of a U.S. dollar bill reads "Legal Tender for All Debts, Public and Private", and is issued by the U.S. Federal Reserve, not the U.S. Treasury. Legal tender can be exchanged for an equivalent amount of lawful money, but effects such as inflation can change the value of fiat money. Lawful money is said to be the most direct form of ownership, but for purposes of practicality it has little use in direct transactions between parties anymore."


And here: [link to definitions.uslegal.com]

"Legal tender is currency that cannot legally be refused in payment of debt. The Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, defines legal tender as "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no federal statute requiring a private business, a person or an organization to accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses may adopt their own policies on whether or not to accept cash as long it doesn't violate state law. For example, a business may refuses to accept payment in pennies or large denomination bills as a matter of policy."

Cited and quoted directly.

There is NO LAW requiring me to use Federal Reserve Credit, nor is there any law requiring anyone to ACCEPT IT.

By default, there MUST BE another form of Lawful money that people cannot lawfully or legally refuse "as tender for payment of DEBTS".

That question was answered in Rickman VS Ware. Look it up yourself.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 32129936
Netherlands
02/13/2013 03:47 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I don't care how they label me, I'm just free in my head. My thoughts, my own. My live, my own.

Anonymous Maverick.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 169265
United States
02/13/2013 03:48 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
As long as agents of the State hold a monopoly on the initiation of force, the legal right to kidnap, incarcerate, and confiscate, and the ability to print money at will, then all 'sovereign' legal arguments are irrelevant and pointless.
 Quoting: Shingen


Are you trying to incite people to go against authorities with violence?

We have another Chris Dorner keep an eye on him.agent
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/13/2013 03:49 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

I am citing the contract between congress and the Federal Reserve



No, you're referring to the obligations of people...


Their only authorized used is spelled out in 12 USC 411. That is available on line and in public libraries free of charge, nothing obligates you to use them, nor is the government obligated to inform you of every obligation you take on by their use.

Thread: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal? (Page 7)


Not the obligation of the federal government and the federal reserve. Only now, when your entire basis of argument has been proven useless idiocy do you scramble to move your goal posts.

The use of federal reserve currency does NOT create an implied contract between people and the federal government or people and the federal reserve. It doesn't not carry any contractual obligations for people. Nor does it establish any jurisdiction.

Jurisdiction is established geographically. It doesn't matter if you use federal reserve notes or not. The law applies to you just the same. Your limitation on the application of law (whether or not you're using federal reserve notes) is imaginary nonsense. And has no relevance to the law or the world outside this message board.
Shingen

User ID: 33279727
United States
02/13/2013 03:52 PM

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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
As long as agents of the State hold a monopoly on the initiation of force, the legal right to kidnap, incarcerate, and confiscate, and the ability to print money at will, then all 'sovereign' legal arguments are irrelevant and pointless.
 Quoting: Shingen


Are you trying to incite people to go against authorities with violence?

We have another Chris Dorner keep an eye on him.agent
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 169265



Exactly how did you come to that conclusion? What part of my statement is in error?

Aren't you trying to provoke people with red herrings?
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
United States
02/13/2013 03:56 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
As long as agents of the State hold a monopoly on the initiation of force, the legal right to kidnap, incarcerate, and confiscate, and the ability to print money at will, then all 'sovereign' legal arguments are irrelevant and pointless.
 Quoting: Shingen


Shingen!! Long time no see! Hope all is well!!

Personally, I do not believe knowledge is ever worthless. I also am not naive enough to know it will not save anyone from what is here already. They bring out the "burners" on national tv and execute a suspect in Cali.

I am sure they will say "he could have fled the fire and gotten out" of course, they would have shot him on sight and claimed he was resisting!

I am here because the subject interests me and I hope it will help people understand the reason we are in this is because of OUR actions and stop blaming everyone else.

That is what it means to be as free a man as we can be, personal responsibility for what we do or do not do.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 31297288
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02/13/2013 03:58 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

I am citing the contract between congress and the Federal Reserve



No, you're referring to the obligations of people...


Their only authorized used is spelled out in 12 USC 411. That is available on line and in public libraries free of charge, nothing obligates you to use them, nor is the government obligated to inform you of every obligation you take on by their use.

Thread: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal? (Page 7)


Not the obligation of the federal government and the federal reserve. Only now, when your entire basis of argument has been proven useless idiocy do you scramble to move your goal posts.

The use of federal reserve currency does NOT create an implied contract between people and the federal government or people and the federal reserve. It doesn't not carry any contractual obligations for people. Nor does it establish any jurisdiction.

Jurisdiction is established geographically. It doesn't matter if you use federal reserve notes or not. The law applies to you just the same. Your limitation on the application of law (whether or not you're using federal reserve notes) is imaginary nonsense. And has no relevance to the law or the world outside this message board.
 Quoting: J 34311994


Yes, actually it does create an obligation, now go pay your income tax and STFU already, slave.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/13/2013 03:58 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
"Investopedia explains 'Lawful Money'
Oddly enough, the dollar bills that we carry around in our wallets are not considered lawful money. The notation on the bottom of a U.S. dollar bill reads "Legal Tender for All Debts, Public and Private", and is issued by the U.S. Federal Reserve, not the U.S. Treasury. Legal tender can be exchanged for an equivalent amount of lawful money, but effects such as inflation can change the value of fiat money. Lawful money is said to be the most direct form of ownership, but for purposes of practicality it has little use in direct transactions between parties anymore."


'Investopedia' isn't a legal authority. It really doesn't matter what they think about 'lawful money'. The only legal relevance is what the law (statutory and caselaw) say on the topic. And the courts have never accepted the 'lawful money' babble regarding Federal Reserve Notes anymore than they have 'using federal reserve notes obligates people in an implied contract' nonsense.

Both are pseudo-legal gibberish. You don't know what you're talking about.

Show us the *law* making a distinction between 'lawful' and 'unlawful' money....with Federal Reserve Notes recognized as not being 'lawful'. You can't. The law doesn't recognize the distinction as far as Federal Reserve Notes are concerned.

Ergo, you're not citing the law. You're citing yourself....and apparently 'investopedia'. I just checked the constitution. Investopedia isn't mentioned anywhere.

Try again.
J
User ID: 34311994
United States
02/13/2013 04:01 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Yes, actually it does create an obligation, now go pay your income tax and STFU already, slave.

No, it doesn't. Using federal reserve notes or not, the law is still the same. The jurisdiction is still the same.

The 'sovereign citizens' just keep making up these imaginary 'limitations' of government jurisdiction that don't actually exist. Jurisdiction isn't based on whether or not you use FRN's or if your birth was recorded in a bible or what font type is used on your birth certificate.

But on where you are geographically.

There's no secret status or secret hand shake that makes you immune from the law.

Get used to the idea.
Shingen

User ID: 33279727
United States
02/13/2013 04:03 PM

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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The problem with the whole 'sovereign' argument is the fact that private individuals can't own property, as all property is owned by the State.

Without true ownership of land, and the right to self defense against the State, there is no individual 'sovereignty'.

It's a false hope built on a false premise.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly

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