Could pilots with a commercial licencse have hit the the World Trade Center and the Pentagon with a 767 or 757 at the speeds observed on 9/11?

That is possible in my opinion. . . .

Blablabla!!!

All I care to say is 9/11 was an inside job, I live in the UK, I have American friends and what happened to innocent American people to take us into wars angers me.

I have a selection of the finest sisal lynching ropes and if called upon by my American brethren, I will fly over to give assistance in rounding up the zioneocon traitors.

yes very plausible considering the fake arab everything will be ok transmitions and the staged mid air phone calls

the only logical explanation was pre recorded crap from somewhere else and and remotley flown plane filled with terrified passengers and flight crew not being able to do a damn thing about it

Question can ground effect be overcome at 500 mph..?

Ever play with Microsoft's flight simulator of that era?

I did quite extensively.

For just about every commercial airliner of that time enthusiasts made extremely detailed flyable models of those aircraft. They had all the panels. All the switches were operable including radios, nav equipment, and autopilots. All the gauges worked, all the warning devices operated.

Now as far as what exactly happens at overspeeds?

You don't have much data to go on as pilots wouldn't admit that they did it.

My take?

Flying the simulators I saw no loss of control at all at overspeeds.

In fact it is difficult to NOT overspeed at altitudes under 10,000 feet. You have to have the throttles way back if you are coming down.

Since nobody has flown a 757 at overspeeds at low altitude to the point of failure of the airframe...

all you have is CONJECTURE as to when and if it would happen.

The aircraft are built with a HUGE safety factor engineering wise.

I would say they will pull at least 5G+ and 3G- with no problems whatsoever. And that is a hell of a lot more stress than flying at subsonic overspeeds for a few minutes.

OK...

play the shill card now.

If truly a conspiracy other than terrorists . . . many would agree with you ;however, until we get more information on what is possible and what is not . . . I think a lynching party is premature. . .

Last Edited by George B on 02/17/2013 08:55 AM

Very elaborate . . . But possible. . . .

Apparently, the NTSB has never heard of "ground effect".

The alleged hijackers (who later turned up very much alive) weren't flying a Microsoft flight simulator. They were flying a Boeing 757.

A real one.

Have you ever flown a real aircraft? Go out to your local flying school and hire yourself a flight instructor and a Cessna 172 for a few hours, and then come back and tell us what you've learned.

Microsoft makes an excellent simulator, but that's what it is. A simulator. It's not the real thing, in the real world.

Seems there is much disagreement over what is possible and what is not . . . The question is how does one resolve such questions. . . How about a demonstration. . . .????

Take a look at a low cost stunt by the human fly . . . if they could do this in the 1975 I am sure we could make such a demonstrations today . . . The Fly did it below 300 mph . . .

[link to m.youtube.com]



Last Edited by George B on 02/17/2013 10:07 AM

Totally.

You mean they would have no problem hitting the towers and the Pentagon . . . ?

Lacy says he's done many things that didn't actually "advance aviation," but were a lot of fun. His experience during the Mojave 1000 with daredevil Rick Rojatt, aka "The Human Fly," a Marvel Comics character, falls under that category. The stunt performer, intent on proving he was the "greatest superhero that ever lived," put his life in capable hands when he flew above the Mojave Desert on top of a DC-8 piloted by Lacy.

"We made a mount for him," said Lacy. "He couldn't have gotten off if he wanted to. He always told people he was up there at 300 mph, but we never flew that fast. The fastest I ever flew him was 220 knots, once, just for a short burst. Most of the time, we were flying at 175 knots."
[link to www.airportjournals.com]

At low altitudes, drag and thermal effects are much more severe than they are at high altitudes, because of the higher air density at low altitudes. An airliner flying at 650 miles per hour (565 knots, added not by author) at sea level, or a fighter flying at MACH 2.5 at sea level, would probably be torn apart by the denser air. (In fact, at least two 737 accidents involved “frozen” rudder mechanisms which caused the jets to go into full-speed powered nosedives, and both 737s came apart before hitting the ground). So drag is much higher at lower altitudes, making it harder – and more dangerous – to fly at top speed through the denser air.
Not only that, but engines having all that dense air shoved into them (if they were flown very fast at low altitudes) would get dangerously hot. Remember how, when we talked about ramjets, we said that the turbine inlet temperature was just about the most important restriction that limits the thrust an engine can put out. The air at lower altitudes is hotter and at higher pressure than high-altitude air. If you compress that low-altitude air, it becomes even hotter. Engines have a much easier time working with high-altitude air: When the engine takes in air that is colder and less dense to begin with, it can be compressed more before reaching those limiting temperatures. This means that the colder and less-dense air at higher altitudes allows a jet engine to run at higher RPMs and at higher compression rations, which make it more efficient. It also means that the engine intake can swallow more of that air per second and compress it properly, and thus burn more fuel and generate more thrust.

[link to www.airplanedesign.info]

Last Edited by George B on 02/17/2013 03:34 PM

I am ex-Air Force and a pilot with tons of hours in several types as well as professional 767 simulator time.

No matter how many times a hijacker practiced such a maneuver on a PC simulator, the G-forces of the last turn exhibited by the second tower aircraft would have made it next to impossible for a human.

That is a 500 knot, 90 degree bank at sea level, meaning the pilot was pulling the maximum possible Gs - which a 767 cockpit is not equipped to handle.

By this, I mean that the pilot would have been unable to move the controls when subjected to 7+ G because the seat is upright and the pilots arms must extend straight out to reach the yoke.

His arms would have fallen off the yoke, so it is a self-limiting exercise.

This is assuming that the 767 does not have a limiter and stick shaker set to prevent such violent maneuvers. I'd have to check the POH or even call some guys at Boeing I used to know.

The smoking gun is the perfect, vertical demolition of the towers AND BUILDING FUCKING SEVEN (!!!!).

The smoking gun of this farce doesn't have to be the aircraft.

You find one smoking gun and you have a farce.

Period.

Anyway, my point is that those plane were flown by computer - and NOT the standard autopilot. All that can do is hold altitude, speed and heading.

Of course, maybe those planes didn't even exists. Hmmm? Ever see a modern action movie?

Look at the flaps on the jet's wings as it flies over the runway.

The flaps are extended to provide more lift, so the plane probably isn't going more than 200 -225 MPH or so. If it was, the overspeed condition would damage the flaps and make the plane uncontrollable.

Maybe one of our 757 experts could tell us what the maximum speeds are for the different flap settings.

Also, the POH of the 767 states to never exceed 250kt below 10k feet.

I wonder if they were told they could fly thru it.

So what is you theory of what happened . . . ???

POH? Do you have a link?

Seriously doubt it . . .

No. Thats why planes flying very fast never crash.

Ground effect applies to aircraft flying parallel to the ground. Not vertically into it.

According the officially approved story the plane that hit the Pentagon was flying at a very low altitude for at least half a mile before hitting the building.

Thanks for your participation . . . .


POLL: Could pilots with a commercial licencse have hit the the World Trade Center and the Pentagon with a 767 or 757 at the sp
7) No   26.6% (50)
6) Probably not, it would be very hard to do   14.4% (27)
2) Yes, it would be fairly straightforward   11.7% (22)
8) No, the plane would be impossible to control at that speed   11.2% (21)
1) Yes   9.6% (18)
11) I don't know   8.5% (16)
9) No, the plane would have fallen apart at that speed   6.4% (12)
10) No, the plane could never even reach that speed.   4.8% (9)
4) Yes, but it would have been very difficult   4.3% (8)
3) Yes, but it would have needed a lot of concentration   1.6% (3)
5) Probably, but they were pretty lucky   1.1% (2)
Blank (View Results) (40)

Non-Blank Votes: 188

Q) Could pilots with a commercial licencse have hit the the World Trade Center and the Pentagon with a 767 or 757 at the speeds observed on 9/11? (the pilots were assumed to have earned a commercial license within the previous year) (Tower #1 = 473 - 510 Knots Groundspeed, Tower#2 = 430 Knots Groundspeed, Pentagon = 460 Knots Groundspeed)

Operating Performance: 200/300/200ER & 300ER
• Vno/Mno 360/0.80 Normal Operating Speed
• Vne/Mne 516/0.86 Mach Never Exceed Speed
• Vat 140-145 knots Landing @ Runway Threshold Speed @ MLW full flap/Gear down
• Vat with X-Plane is @ 50'.... 25'....10'
• Max Cruise 488 - 492 kts , Long Range Cruise 457 - 461 kts
• Max Alt. 43,000' , Long Range Alt 33,000' - 39,000'
* DO NOT Exceed 250kts @ or Below 10,000ft Altitude.*

[link to knology.net]

Cruise Speeds:
• Max Cruise Speed is 490kts @ 35,000'
• Long Range Cruise is 460 - 465kts @ 35,000 - 39,000'
• Cruise Speed 485 - 490 kts Cruise Altitude 30,000 - 39,000ft depending on weight.
• Typical Cruise Speed is 0.78 - 0.82 Mach @ FL300 - FL390 (30,000-39,000ft)


MLW = Maximum Landing Weight
MTO = Maximum Take-off Weight
V2 = Safe Climb-out speed (The speed after Vr, Rotation speed or Lift-off speed) Vat = Landing speed at runway threshold Flap/Gear down (X-Plane @ 50'...25'...10') Vapr= Approach Speed , just add 5-10kts to Vat with flap/gear down @ MLW or less Vno = Normal Operating Speed
Vmo = Maximum Operating Speed
Vne = Never Exceed Speed
FL350 = Flight Level 35,000'

Last Edited by George B on 02/17/2013 04:14 PM

Where did you get the info about . . . the bold face above . . . 90 degree
bank?

Last Edited by George B on 02/17/2013 10:37 PM

POLL: Could pilots with a commercial licencse have hit the the World Trade Center and the Pentagon with a 767 or 757 at the sp
7) No   26.9% (52)
6) Probably not, it would be very hard to do   14.5% (28)
2) Yes, it would be fairly straightforward   11.9% (23)
8) No, the plane would be impossible to control at that speed   10.9% (21)
1) Yes   9.3% (18)
11) I don't know   8.3% (16)
9) No, the plane would have fallen apart at that speed   6.2% (12)
10) No, the plane could never even reach that speed.   4.7% (9)
4) Yes, but it would have been very difficult   4.1% (8)
3) Yes, but it would have needed a lot of concentration   2.1% (4)
5) Probably, but they were pretty lucky   1.0% (2)
Blank (View Results) (44)

Non-Blank Votes: 193

nothing worse than someone posting about a totally idiotic and stiflingly archaic conspiracy theory.

there jobs are more important

most have been sub consciously been indoctrinated into a belief system that is virtually impossible to crack 95% of the time


hence why %5 max of the worlds population is awake.