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Culture is dead

 
ElusivePisces
User ID: 11156436
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02/17/2013 05:08 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
there never was any culture.

we are stuck on a rock, spinning out of control in the depths of the ass end of beyond nowhere (galactically speaking). there is no one, no life, no meaning, no culture. no one is listening, no one is coming, no one is here already.

it is a bad joke at best.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34622446


Then how do you explain the shear beauty of classical music, if there is no culture?
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 05:13 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
You're right OP. It might be more appropriate to say "culture is being destroyed". In the absence of interference, I'm sure it would ascend once again - which is why the libertarian movement gives me hope.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


You know, I'm from Scotland and when I came to the States 4 years ago I had a similar hope.

Well I've seen the libertarian movement up close, and I don't hold out hope for it anymore. I think the movement can help inform certain people, and can spread the ideas a bit, but it's failed as an educational project.
 Quoting: Alethian


Anything specific? I don't really consider myself a libertarian, but the idea of lessening state control and the resultant social-engineering can only be a good one, no?

BTW, are you a present or former academic? Your commentary seems a cut above the typical fare.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 05:23 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
There is really no such thing as culture.

Just a bunch of people living together in the same world

some are rich ;some are poor

When money collapses

you will see what you call 'culture' collapse very rapidly ...
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 05:27 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
There is really no such thing as culture.

Just a bunch of people living together in the same world

some are rich ;some are poor

When money collapses

you will see what you call 'culture' collapse very rapidly ...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32538141


The only reason most of us still can walk around without being mugged or killed for our money, jewelry is

because we have plentiful food available in stores and restaurants and many people still have jobs to buy that plentiful food.

But if you take away money ; which gets rid of jobs and no more food stocked on shelves...

going outside becomes more and more dangerous
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 05:28 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
.....once a culture is based on nostalgia and recycling memes because on their historical context , then things are circling the ........
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34247647


a) Things are circling the drain, and this motivates people like me to reflect on culturally richer eras. It's a common theme throughout history.

b) There is nothing intrinsically wrong or detrimental with looking to the past. Your comment is influenced by the assumption of progressivism, that we should continually look forward, that we are constantly moving to a better state than we were in. This encourages you to use words like "nostalgia" and "recycling" and "memes", subtly pejorative in the context.

c) Rather than merely recalling external features of Greek culture, I am appealing primarily to their orientation towards ideals, which served to guide and shape their lives, and secondarily to the content of those ideals: beauty, excellence, harmony. Contrary to these internal features of Greek civilization, our age is dominated by the rejection of ideals and by the subsequent worship of pleasure, whim, and power.

Everything falls away OP. Nothing lasts forever. I wonder how many have lamented this before us? Even ancient Greek philosophers mused about the failings of their own society at the time, from their viewpoint living in it.

We may be on the verge of something great, or a total disaster . That's what I see.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324238


I agree with you. It's a common theme in the Platonic, Aristotelian, and Stoic writings. However much they lamented their culture, the culture that existed at the time of their writing was still rich by objective standards.

But I don't hold out any hope for a 'something great'. Mathematically our economy is doomed, a situation caused by our bankrupt culture. We'll have to go through incredible ills before we see a cultural renaissance, something we won't live to see.
 Quoting: Alethian


......derivative is what im speaking of divorced from authentic experience ......learning from the past is important but it is just as important to embrace the mystery and terror of the unknown to explore what is undiscovered....
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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02/17/2013 05:31 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
You're right OP. It might be more appropriate to say "culture is being destroyed". In the absence of interference, I'm sure it would ascend once again - which is why the libertarian movement gives me hope.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


You know, I'm from Scotland and when I came to the States 4 years ago I had a similar hope.

Well I've seen the libertarian movement up close, and I don't hold out hope for it anymore. I think the movement can help inform certain people, and can spread the ideas a bit, but it's failed as an educational project.
 Quoting: Alethian


Anything specific? I don't really consider myself a libertarian, but the idea of lessening state control and the resultant social-engineering can only be a good one, no?

BTW, are you a present or former academic? Your commentary seems a cut above the typical fare.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


Thanks! cheers I'm a PhD student in philosophy at a high-ranked university. Focus on political philosophy with a deep interest in ancient philosophy.

Libertarian philosophy, or at least its 'classics,' (Mises, Hayek, Rand, Rothbard) is great, and I consider myself a libertarian.

But the movement suffers from the same cultural bankruptcy that infects society at large. Here's a brief list of some of the problems I've observed:

- Libertarians don't take these ideas seriously, they typically view them as an intellectual curiosity with which they agree. The best statement of this I've heard is from a serious libertarian I know: "They don't have the courage of their convictions." Here's the question: which of them would stand at the ramparts during the American Revolution, fighting for liberty? Few of them. In this regard I have far greater respect for many conservatives in this country.

- Further, the movement is still largely an economic one, rather than a cultural one. It is dominated by economists, economic theory, and economic methodology. They appeal to calculation and policy, not to ideals. Any political or cultural movement is rooted in ideals, which manifest themselves in art, literature, politics, ethics, etc. In this respect, libertarianism doesn't even exist: libertarians who hold such an idealistic perspective are living on the remnants of the natural rights tradition. It follows that as a cultural phenomenon, it's the conservatives on the street who keep alive the ideal of liberty in America, not the libertarians.

- Now there are exceptions, libertarians who are serious, culturally oriented, and courageous. But they're rare, and not prominent in the libertarian organizations.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 26681822
United States
02/17/2013 05:34 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
.....once a culture is based on nostalgia and recycling memes because on their historical context , then things are circling the ........
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34247647


a) Things are circling the drain, and this motivates people like me to reflect on culturally richer eras. It's a common theme throughout history.

b) There is nothing intrinsically wrong or detrimental with looking to the past. Your comment is influenced by the assumption of progressivism, that we should continually look forward, that we are constantly moving to a better state than we were in. This encourages you to use words like "nostalgia" and "recycling" and "memes", subtly pejorative in the context.

c) Rather than merely recalling external features of Greek culture, I am appealing primarily to their orientation towards ideals, which served to guide and shape their lives, and secondarily to the content of those ideals: beauty, excellence, harmony. Contrary to these internal features of Greek civilization, our age is dominated by the rejection of ideals and by the subsequent worship of pleasure, whim, and power.

Everything falls away OP. Nothing lasts forever. I wonder how many have lamented this before us? Even ancient Greek philosophers mused about the failings of their own society at the time, from their viewpoint living in it.

We may be on the verge of something great, or a total disaster . That's what I see.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324238


I agree with you. It's a common theme in the Platonic, Aristotelian, and Stoic writings. However much they lamented their culture, the culture that existed at the time of their writing was still rich by objective standards.

But I don't hold out any hope for a 'something great'. Mathematically our economy is doomed, a situation caused by our bankrupt culture. We'll have to go through incredible ills before we see a cultural renaissance, something we won't live to see.
 Quoting: Alethian


......derivative is what im speaking of divorced from authentic experience ......learning from the past is important but it is just as important to embrace the mystery and terror of the unknown to explore what is undiscovered....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34247647


Well I agree with that. Sorry if my response wasn't proportionate to your intention. There's a danger that genuine admiration for the past can become worship and fabrication. That's also dangerous.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 05:42 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
The jewelry was nice.
[link to upload.wikimedia.org]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1663367
United Kingdom
02/17/2013 05:52 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
You're right OP. It might be more appropriate to say "culture is being destroyed". In the absence of interference, I'm sure it would ascend once again - which is why the libertarian movement gives me hope.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


You know, I'm from Scotland and when I came to the States 4 years ago I had a similar hope.

Well I've seen the libertarian movement up close, and I don't hold out hope for it anymore. I think the movement can help inform certain people, and can spread the ideas a bit, but it's failed as an educational project.
 Quoting: Alethian


Anything specific? I don't really consider myself a libertarian, but the idea of lessening state control and the resultant social-engineering can only be a good one, no?

BTW, are you a present or former academic? Your commentary seems a cut above the typical fare.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


Thanks! cheers I'm a PhD student in philosophy at a high-ranked university. Focus on political philosophy with a deep interest in ancient philosophy.

Libertarian philosophy, or at least its 'classics,' (Mises, Hayek, Rand, Rothbard) is great, and I consider myself a libertarian.

But the movement suffers from the same cultural bankruptcy that infects society at large. Here's a brief list of some of the problems I've observed:

- Libertarians don't take these ideas seriously, they typically view them as an intellectual curiosity with which they agree. The best statement of this I've heard is from a serious libertarian I know: "They don't have the courage of their convictions." Here's the question: which of them would stand at the ramparts during the American Revolution, fighting for liberty? Few of them. In this regard I have far greater respect for many conservatives in this country.

- Further, the movement is still largely an economic one, rather than a cultural one. It is dominated by economists, economic theory, and economic methodology. They appeal to calculation and policy, not to ideals. Any political or cultural movement is rooted in ideals, which manifest themselves in art, literature, politics, ethics, etc. In this respect, libertarianism doesn't even exist: libertarians who hold such an idealistic perspective are living on the remnants of the natural rights tradition. It follows that as a cultural phenomenon, it's the conservatives on the street who keep alive the ideal of liberty in America, not the libertarians.

- Now there are exceptions, libertarians who are serious, culturally oriented, and courageous. But they're rare, and not prominent in the libertarian organizations.
 Quoting: Alethian


I knew it! Lol.. Good for you!

Remember: Marxism started as an economic theory too - only later did it become translated into a social theory.
thedude2888
Caesar

User ID: 24654008
United States
02/17/2013 05:52 PM

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Re: Culture is dead
i figured all this out four years ago when i was 19 and no kne listened to me.

i am still here and people are recieveing much info, suffering guides us towards heaven.

i am a sinner. but i work to spread love and hold to the virtue which God protects me with.

it is my year of the snake;; i will communicate in ways you never dreamed possible.

grab some moldevite.
Christ is King
thedude2888
Caesar

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02/17/2013 05:53 PM

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Re: Culture is dead
i am the new leader;; whether you help me or not.
Christ is King
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 06:02 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 06:04 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
Thanks to "Political Correctness"....& removing God from our schools. Beginning of the end.
ElusivePisces
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02/17/2013 06:08 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
Thanks to "Political Correctness"....& removing God from our schools. Beginning of the end.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32681289


THEIR diabolical agenda, has worked out just as THEY planned it would years ago.
SurfinServer
User ID: 2519072
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02/17/2013 06:12 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
violin No its not dead technically speaking. It is a living, rotting mass we call 'pop'. Caricaturized by chronic degeneration of ever elusive standards of measure. At least we might take some assurance in the fact that this is not an accident, and that somewhere, someone knows what they are doing. We are the objective victims of cultural assination by those who would control us.Idol1
The real problem seems to be the mass recipients of culture and thier tendacy to gravitate to the lowest common denominator.baby When the people demand a higher standard in the arts of all things that comprise culture, it will be forth coming. Right now I think they are busy reacting, unconsciosly, to their last vacination. Uh-duh.ahhh
Anonymous Coward
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United States
02/17/2013 06:17 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
violin No its not dead technically speaking. It is a living, rotting mass we call 'pop'. Caricaturized by chronic degeneration of ever elusive standards of measure. At least we might take some assurance in the fact that this is not an accident, and that somewhere, someone knows what they are doing. We are the objective victims of cultural assination by those who would control us.Idol1
The real problem seems to be the mass recipients of culture and thier tendacy to gravitate to the lowest common denominator.baby When the people demand a higher standard in the arts of all things that comprise culture, it will be forth coming. Right now I think they are busy reacting, unconsciosly, to their last vacination. Uh-duh.ahhh
 Quoting: SurfinServer 2519072


....correct........the truest metaphor to our culture is soda........stimulating , sensory pleasing , .....while at the same time causing weakness , disease and internal rot.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 06:22 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
Libertarianism offers us a way out of the cultural death-spiral. It unifies the political camps around an incontestable idea -- freedom. Who can argue against it?

Once free, humanity can get busy deciding for itself, what is good, right, noble etc...
Anonymous Coward
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Germany
02/17/2013 06:22 PM
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Re: Culture is dead

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22434009


Thanks for that. It's a pity he's dead.

It's a pity all those great teachers (Alan Watts, Albert Hofmann, ...) are dead. Or is there any great teacher left? Can't think of one.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 06:32 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
Libertarianism offers us a way out of the cultural death-spiral. It unifies the political camps around an incontestable idea -- freedom. Who can argue against it?

Once free, humanity can get busy deciding for itself, what is good, right, noble etc...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$libertarianism concerns itself too much with$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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02/17/2013 07:09 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
Libertarianism offers us a way out of the cultural death-spiral. It unifies the political camps around an incontestable idea -- freedom. Who can argue against it?

Once free, humanity can get busy deciding for itself, what is good, right, noble etc...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


Libertarianism promotes freedom, but freedom to do what? Freedom is a condition, not an end. People needs ends, not mere conditions. This is why I don't think libertarianism is complete, and one of the main reasons I don't think it's been successful. Socialism promotes equality and material comfort as its ends, with a dose of brotherhood, authenticity, and respect. So long as libertarians focus on freedom, they'll never beat the socialists.

Social movements develop around ends, not means.

Libertarianism offers us a way out of the cultural death-spiral. It unifies the political camps around an incontestable idea -- freedom. Who can argue against it?

Once free, humanity can get busy deciding for itself, what is good, right, noble etc...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$libertarianism concerns itself too much with$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34247647


It does, but I don't know if I mean the same thing by that as you do. Libertarians focus on freedom to make money, primarily because they're typically economists. There's very little libertarian talk about other ideals.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 07:10 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
here here
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 08:05 PM
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Re: Culture is dead
"It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field."

"The soldiers twisted some thorns into a victor's crown..."

"So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh..."

You can say what you want, but it seems to me you only ever see what they want you to see.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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02/18/2013 12:30 AM
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Re: Culture is dead
...


You know, I'm from Scotland and when I came to the States 4 years ago I had a similar hope.

Well I've seen the libertarian movement up close, and I don't hold out hope for it anymore. I think the movement can help inform certain people, and can spread the ideas a bit, but it's failed as an educational project.
 Quoting: Alethian


Anything specific? I don't really consider myself a libertarian, but the idea of lessening state control and the resultant social-engineering can only be a good one, no?

BTW, are you a present or former academic? Your commentary seems a cut above the typical fare.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


Thanks! cheers I'm a PhD student in philosophy at a high-ranked university. Focus on political philosophy with a deep interest in ancient philosophy.

Libertarian philosophy, or at least its 'classics,' (Mises, Hayek, Rand, Rothbard) is great, and I consider myself a libertarian.

But the movement suffers from the same cultural bankruptcy that infects society at large. Here's a brief list of some of the problems I've observed:

- Libertarians don't take these ideas seriously, they typically view them as an intellectual curiosity with which they agree. The best statement of this I've heard is from a serious libertarian I know: "They don't have the courage of their convictions." Here's the question: which of them would stand at the ramparts during the American Revolution, fighting for liberty? Few of them. In this regard I have far greater respect for many conservatives in this country.

- Further, the movement is still largely an economic one, rather than a cultural one. It is dominated by economists, economic theory, and economic methodology. They appeal to calculation and policy, not to ideals. Any political or cultural movement is rooted in ideals, which manifest themselves in art, literature, politics, ethics, etc. In this respect, libertarianism doesn't even exist: libertarians who hold such an idealistic perspective are living on the remnants of the natural rights tradition. It follows that as a cultural phenomenon, it's the conservatives on the street who keep alive the ideal of liberty in America, not the libertarians.

- Now there are exceptions, libertarians who are serious, culturally oriented, and courageous. But they're rare, and not prominent in the libertarian organizations.
 Quoting: Alethian


I knew it! Lol.. Good for you!

Remember: Marxism started as an economic theory too - only later did it become translated into a social theory.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


True. My concern is that while Marxism evolved into a comprehensive theory, libertarianism has degenerated into a merely economic theory. Marx drew on richer philosophical resources: Rousseau, Hegel, etc. Libertarians no longer draw on such resources, but stubbornly stick to their ivory tower economic perspective. They don't try to engage with the common man, with aesthetics, with culture. They live in self-imposed isolation from culture, surrounded by businessmen and financial contributors.
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
02/18/2013 05:47 AM
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Re: Culture is dead
...


Anything specific? I don't really consider myself a libertarian, but the idea of lessening state control and the resultant social-engineering can only be a good one, no?

BTW, are you a present or former academic? Your commentary seems a cut above the typical fare.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


Thanks! cheers I'm a PhD student in philosophy at a high-ranked university. Focus on political philosophy with a deep interest in ancient philosophy.

Libertarian philosophy, or at least its 'classics,' (Mises, Hayek, Rand, Rothbard) is great, and I consider myself a libertarian.

But the movement suffers from the same cultural bankruptcy that infects society at large. Here's a brief list of some of the problems I've observed:

- Libertarians don't take these ideas seriously, they typically view them as an intellectual curiosity with which they agree. The best statement of this I've heard is from a serious libertarian I know: "They don't have the courage of their convictions." Here's the question: which of them would stand at the ramparts during the American Revolution, fighting for liberty? Few of them. In this regard I have far greater respect for many conservatives in this country.

- Further, the movement is still largely an economic one, rather than a cultural one. It is dominated by economists, economic theory, and economic methodology. They appeal to calculation and policy, not to ideals. Any political or cultural movement is rooted in ideals, which manifest themselves in art, literature, politics, ethics, etc. In this respect, libertarianism doesn't even exist: libertarians who hold such an idealistic perspective are living on the remnants of the natural rights tradition. It follows that as a cultural phenomenon, it's the conservatives on the street who keep alive the ideal of liberty in America, not the libertarians.

- Now there are exceptions, libertarians who are serious, culturally oriented, and courageous. But they're rare, and not prominent in the libertarian organizations.
 Quoting: Alethian


I knew it! Lol.. Good for you!

Remember: Marxism started as an economic theory too - only later did it become translated into a social theory.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1663367


True. My concern is that while Marxism evolved into a comprehensive theory, libertarianism has degenerated into a merely economic theory. Marx drew on richer philosophical resources: Rousseau, Hegel, etc. Libertarians no longer draw on such resources, but stubbornly stick to their ivory tower economic perspective. They don't try to engage with the common man, with aesthetics, with culture. They live in self-imposed isolation from culture, surrounded by businessmen and financial contributors.
 Quoting: Alethian


It just means there's work to be done...

With the rise of the libertarian movement, hopefully a richer, more complete theory will emerge. I just believe that only good things can follow from increased freedom.
Conservatives used to believe that too.
Anonymous Coward
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02/18/2013 05:57 AM
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Re: Culture is dead
it's the greediness of the corporations and government that's bringing out the downfall of everyone...materialism... gotta have this product etc
Bittercritter
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02/18/2013 06:08 AM
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Re: Culture is dead
Creativity and excellence are no longer rewarded but punished as aberrant behaviors that places one outside of one's peer group. We must all be the same in this day and age. How can kids be creative when we don't teach them fine motor skills involved in making art or music? Tapping keys on a computer or buttons on a gaming controller are no substitute for learning to draw or play and instrument.
I rather like the comparison of Today as Rome versus the created culture made by the Greeks. All we have are pale copies of what was once a great culture. Compare today's music with what was made in the 70's. Nobody can touch the genius of bands like Queen, Yes, Return to forever, Zappa, aSteve Hillage, Pink Floyd, etc. I feel very fortunate to have been teen during the time of the greatest music ever made. It's not coming back and it's all downhill from here kids!
Anonymous Coward
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02/18/2013 06:38 AM
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Re: Culture is dead
By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest. Confucius
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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02/18/2013 10:14 AM
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Re: Culture is dead
By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest. Confucius
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8381622


Good quote. Confucius was a good teacher. Yet even his great wisdom became the degenerate cultural phenomenon that was cultural or orthodox Confucianism.
Anonymous Coward
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Belgium
02/18/2013 10:17 AM
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Re: Culture is dead

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22434009


THIS
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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02/18/2013 01:01 PM
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Re: Culture is dead

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22434009


I just watched this. A very good video. I agree with him completely, including his method of moving forward. The classical philosophers recognized the value and necessity of art, and in particular recognized its role in shaping an individual's values and the direction of a culture.

His point seems to be true of socialism and libertarianism. Socialism had a very distinctive art style: red colors, solidarity, raised fists, workers, etc. Libertarianism spread primarily through the art of Ayn Rand, as much as libertarian intellectuals want to reject that. And come to think of it, Nazism was primarily an aesthetic movement.

So I like that idea. Start with art: paintings, music, sculpture, video games, movies - whatever art form can get the values of freedom, virtue, and beauty out there.

The philosophy of freedom has already been created. The intellectual task is primarily to preserve it and restate it for each new generation, and apply it to the new problems we face. But the system is there. We need art.

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