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# Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation

Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 06:20 AM

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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Astro.

Make a thread helping us find Near Earth Objects.

twelve sizable meteorite touch downs in 5 days... Large enough to cause shock waves of destruction.(I am avoiding the natural accumulation of meteorites in a Earth year because the normality of size of these in the past five days is not normal.

How have you not done a thread yet???
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13871590

These are all pretty small objects, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. None of them are nearly as big as the Russian one. It would take a systematic search by a very powerful telescope like the GLP main scope. I am working on searching for another object which has been lost for several decades and has a very slim chance of hitting earth and making even Apophis look like a walk in the park. Due to its size it's within the grasp of a scope like mine.

Last Edited by The Deplorable Astromut on 02/20/2013 06:20 AM

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Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 06:29 AM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Astro.

Make a thread helping us find Near Earth Objects.

twelve sizable meteorite touch downs in 5 days... Large enough to cause shock waves of destruction.(I am avoiding the natural accumulation of meteorites in a Earth year because the normality of size of these in the past five days is not normal.

How have you not done a thread yet???
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13871590

These are all pretty small objects, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. None of them are nearly as big as the Russian one. It would take a systematic search by a very powerful telescope like the GLP main scope. I am working on searching for another object which has been lost for several decades and has a very slim chance of hitting earth and making even Apophis look like a walk in the park. Due to its size it's within the grasp of a scope like mine.
Quoting: Dr. Astro

sounds interesting the lost object,hope you rediscover it,i wont ask what it is even though im curious,or else everyone will be looking too lol.
Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 06:32 AM

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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Astro.

Make a thread helping us find Near Earth Objects.

twelve sizable meteorite touch downs in 5 days... Large enough to cause shock waves of destruction.(I am avoiding the natural accumulation of meteorites in a Earth year because the normality of size of these in the past five days is not normal.

How have you not done a thread yet???
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13871590

These are all pretty small objects, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. None of them are nearly as big as the Russian one. It would take a systematic search by a very powerful telescope like the GLP main scope. I am working on searching for another object which has been lost for several decades and has a very slim chance of hitting earth and making even Apophis look like a walk in the park. Due to its size it's within the grasp of a scope like mine.
Quoting: Dr. Astro

sounds interesting the lost object,hope you rediscover it,i wont ask what it is even though im curious,or else everyone will be looking too lol.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34810526

Well my goal is to directly search for where it would be if it were going to hit us. We have no idea where it is, only what its orbit looks like, which is why there's a slim chance of impact a few decades from now when our planet intersects its orbit. Bottom line, hopefully I don't rediscover it or else it means it could hit us. Hopefully nothing's there where it would have to be in order to hit us. Still working on it though.

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Weasel_Turbine

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02/20/2013 08:30 AM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
The moon has a path that is visible from the surface of Earth.

No telling how far out it is, nor how large it is.

The problem is, the scale of what I find on the surface doesn't MATCH the distances and dimensions that are given.

But the path, as seen from the surface is a stable constant, so stable in fact, that it can be imitated, matched or overwritten.

What is unfortunate is that Deceit rules Science.

Why? So scientists can renew their grants, which are dominated by political correctness in this NOT-SEE Fascist system.
Quoting: PIN!occhia 230567

Wrong. Anyone can find the distance and from there the size using basic geometry. Also possible is a HAM radio enthusiast can bounce a radio signal off the Moon and measure the time for the return. One doesn't have to rely on others to get the distance for the Moon.
If you have to insist that you've won an Internet argument, you've probably lost badly. - Danth's Law
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 01:26 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Astro.

Make a thread helping us find Near Earth Objects.

twelve sizable meteorite touch downs in 5 days... Large enough to cause shock waves of destruction.(I am avoiding the natural accumulation of meteorites in a Earth year because the normality of size of these in the past five days is not normal.

How have you not done a thread yet???
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13871590

These are all pretty small objects, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. None of them are nearly as big as the Russian one. It would take a systematic search by a very powerful telescope like the GLP main scope. I am working on searching for another object which has been lost for several decades and has a very slim chance of hitting earth and making even Apophis look like a walk in the park. Due to its size it's within the grasp of a scope like mine.
Quoting: Dr. Astro

sounds interesting the lost object,hope you rediscover it,i wont ask what it is even though im curious,or else everyone will be looking too lol.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34810526

Well my goal is to directly search for where it would be if it were going to hit us. We have no idea where it is, only what its orbit looks like, which is why there's a slim chance of impact a few decades from now when our planet intersects its orbit. Bottom line, hopefully I don't rediscover it or else it means it could hit us. Hopefully nothing's there where it would have to be in order to hit us. Still working on it though.
Quoting: Dr. Astro

So that means you know the orbit approx, but not where exactly the object is in the orbit, i guess i may not want to rediscover it either if finding it was bad.Still very interesting though.
Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 04:41 PM

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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
...

These are all pretty small objects, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. None of them are nearly as big as the Russian one. It would take a systematic search by a very powerful telescope like the GLP main scope. I am working on searching for another object which has been lost for several decades and has a very slim chance of hitting earth and making even Apophis look like a walk in the park. Due to its size it's within the grasp of a scope like mine.
Quoting: Dr. Astro

sounds interesting the lost object,hope you rediscover it,i wont ask what it is even though im curious,or else everyone will be looking too lol.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34810526

Well my goal is to directly search for where it would be if it were going to hit us. We have no idea where it is, only what its orbit looks like, which is why there's a slim chance of impact a few decades from now when our planet intersects its orbit. Bottom line, hopefully I don't rediscover it or else it means it could hit us. Hopefully nothing's there where it would have to be in order to hit us. Still working on it though.
Quoting: Dr. Astro

So that means you know the orbit approx, but not where exactly the object is in the orbit, i guess i may not want to rediscover it either if finding it was bad.Still very interesting though.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34828017

Right, well if I were doing a general search for it then rediscovery would be desirable. Given that we don't know where in the orbit it is, that could take years to do since it could still only be detected when it gets within a certain distance of earth. Rather than do that I'm tackling the most interesting part of the uncertainty directly; the possibility that it could hit earth. That restricts the search area very tightly and that is what I'm currently working on.

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Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 06:27 PM

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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Thanks for the pin!

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Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 06:50 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation

Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 06:53 PM

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Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4819370

Nope. It's real, it works, and it's proven.

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02/20/2013 07:13 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation

"I am alive, I'm just playing dead."
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 07:30 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Dr Astro, I thaught the moon drifted outward every year by about 100meters. Im sure i read that somewhere on a site like nasa. so from 4000 BC to now would that not mean its drifted out 600 kilometers and 130 Meters?; counting year 0.
Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 07:49 PM

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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Dr Astro, I thaught the moon drifted outward every year by about 100meters. Im sure i read that somewhere on a site like nasa. so from 4000 BC to now would that not mean its drifted out 600 kilometers and 130 Meters?; counting year 0.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25033126

Yes the moon is getting slightly farther away every year due to tidal acceleration, but not nearly at that magnitude. The rate is something like about 3.8 cm/year. That is accounted for in the formulae that make up my spreadsheet.

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Hugh M Eye

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02/20/2013 07:59 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Dr Astro, I thaught the moon drifted outward every year by about 100meters. Im sure i read that somewhere on a site like nasa. so from 4000 BC to now would that not mean its drifted out 600 kilometers and 130 Meters?; counting year 0.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25033126

The moon is drifting away from Earth at 38mm per year. By my calculations, it would take more than 15 million years to drift 600km. Also, total eclipses would never look the same.

Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 08:21 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
good one mutt of astroness, however, I still have a question...

I am currently seeing the craters of the moony in a completely different location than on other days.

This means that the side which faces us, has turned or rotated 270degrees.

To help you understand what I am saying, take a glass and place it on a table, and mark the 12 o'clock position with a line....

Now turn it 270 degrees, and the line should appear around the 9 o'clock position.

Why is this happening? On different months, it appears in different rotations, and nobody has yet explained this.

It is not just isolated to the moony either, other planets are undergoing this mysterious rotation.....

Eg. Here is a normal image that was taken of Saturn...

Now, here is saturn as it currently looks, which occured incidentally, around the month of December 2012.

Can you explain why this has happened for the full ten points?

Thanx
Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 08:31 PM

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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
good one mutt of astroness, however, I still have a question...

I am currently seeing the craters of the moony in a completely different location than on other days.

This means that the side which faces us, has turned or rotated 270degrees.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34718577

No, it's field rotation. My spreadsheet shows this effect; the moon can rise with the illuminated side tilted 90 degrees to the horizon with the illuminated side facing away from the horizon, get close to the meridian and go to 0 degrees rotation, and then set while tilted 90 degrees to the horizon with the illuminated portion facing down towards the horizon. Now does this mean the sun literally went 180 degrees around the moon from rising to setting? Of course not. The craters are still illuminated from the same direction by the sun for a given phase angle, regardless of the moon's apparent orientation in the sky from your location.
Why is this happening? On different months, it appears in different rotations, and nobody has yet explained this.
Quoting: AC

Check out my excel sheet. The apparent orientation is dependent on the exact date and time and location of observation.
It is not just isolated to the moony either, other planets are undergoing this mysterious rotation.....
Quoting: AC

Field rotation applies to everything, including planets. Here's an example from a timelapse I did of Jupiter:

By the way, here's what Saturn looked like in December 2012 from a polar aligned perspective (free from field rotation):

Your example images of Saturn appear to be from Cassini (possibly Hubble?), which could be oriented in any arbitrary direction for the picture.

Last Edited by The Deplorable Astromut on 02/20/2013 08:36 PM

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Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 08:33 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Nice work, Astro.
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 09:07 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
good one mutt of astroness, however, I still have a question...

I am currently seeing the craters of the moony in a completely different location than on other days.

This means that the side which faces us, has turned or rotated 270degrees.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34718577

No, it's field rotation. My spreadsheet shows this effect; the moon can rise with the illuminated side tilted 90 degrees to the horizon with the illuminated side facing away from the horizon, get close to the meridian and go to 0 degrees rotation, and then set while tilted 90 degrees to the horizon with the illuminated portion facing down towards the horizon. Now does this mean the sun literally went 180 degrees around the moon from rising to setting? Of course not. The craters are still illuminated from the same direction by the sun for a given phase angle, regardless of the moon's apparent orientation in the sky from your location.
Why is this happening? On different months, it appears in different rotations, and nobody has yet explained this.
Quoting: AC

Check out my excel sheet. The apparent orientation is dependent on the exact date and time and location of observation.
It is not just isolated to the moony either, other planets are undergoing this mysterious rotation.....
Quoting: AC

Field rotation applies to everything, including planets. Here's an example from a timelapse I did of Jupiter:

By the way, here's what Saturn looked like in December 2012 from a polar aligned perspective (free from field rotation):

Your example images of Saturn appear to be from Cassini (possibly Hubble?), which could be oriented in any arbitrary direction for the picture.
Quoting: Dr. Astro

OK thnx but the anglular movement is also happening on my starmap
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 09:22 PM
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Is there somewhere online we can view live telescopic footage of the moon?

There's a HUGE halo around the moon tonight and they're really getting some spraying done. It's creeping me out..

Im in the SE US, btw.
#Geomagnetic_Storm#
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02/20/2013 09:25 PM

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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Is there somewhere online we can view live telescopic footage of the moon?

There's a HUGE halo around the moon tonight and they're really getting some spraying done. It's creeping me out..

Im in the SE US, btw.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33838017

It's moisture. Usually means a storm is incoming.
Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 10:09 PM

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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
good one mutt of astroness, however, I still have a question...

I am currently seeing the craters of the moony in a completely different location than on other days.

This means that the side which faces us, has turned or rotated 270degrees.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34718577

No, it's field rotation. My spreadsheet shows this effect; the moon can rise with the illuminated side tilted 90 degrees to the horizon with the illuminated side facing away from the horizon, get close to the meridian and go to 0 degrees rotation, and then set while tilted 90 degrees to the horizon with the illuminated portion facing down towards the horizon. Now does this mean the sun literally went 180 degrees around the moon from rising to setting? Of course not. The craters are still illuminated from the same direction by the sun for a given phase angle, regardless of the moon's apparent orientation in the sky from your location.
Why is this happening? On different months, it appears in different rotations, and nobody has yet explained this.
Quoting: AC

Check out my excel sheet. The apparent orientation is dependent on the exact date and time and location of observation.
It is not just isolated to the moony either, other planets are undergoing this mysterious rotation.....
Quoting: AC

Field rotation applies to everything, including planets. Here's an example from a timelapse I did of Jupiter:

By the way, here's what Saturn looked like in December 2012 from a polar aligned perspective (free from field rotation):

Your example images of Saturn appear to be from Cassini (possibly Hubble?), which could be oriented in any arbitrary direction for the picture.
Quoting: Dr. Astro

OK thnx but the anglular movement is also happening on my starmap
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34718577

Of course, why wouldn't it? This spreadsheet is doing the same basic calculations that run behind the scenes of every major star map program out there.

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Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 10:10 PM

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Is there somewhere online we can view live telescopic footage of the moon?
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33838017

[link to www.nightskiesnetwork.com] (I'm NGCHunter on there)

Last Edited by The Deplorable Astromut on 02/20/2013 10:10 PM

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PIN!occhia
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02/20/2013 10:34 PM
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Finally, Jim McCanney (an astronomy buff) has come out to declare that the Wormwood system with its seven planets is truly in a traffic merge with our system.

So, with seven EXTRA SPHERES OUT THERE, who knows which is which? OR where's what? OR what we're orbitting now?

I sure can't tell by looking at the SKY, and you guys certainly can't tell by looking at your computer SIMS, which are by now WAAAAAY out of date.

:shrug:
Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 10:37 PM

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Finally, Jim McCanney (an astronomy buff) has come out to declare that the Wormwood system with its seven planets is truly in a traffic merge with our system.
Quoting: PIN!occhia 34843287

Jim McCanney is an idiot who can't distinguish between hot pixels and actual objects in an image.

Wormwood with seven planets (he latched onto claims this timelapse showed the planet being followed by companions: [link to www.youtube.com] )? My ass, it's just a comet:

Oh, and he lied when he claimed NASA changed Pete's timelapse to remove the "planets." You can still it in their version:

Last Edited by The Deplorable Astromut on 02/20/2013 10:50 PM

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Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 11:02 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Astro what is your personal opinion on venus slowing rotation?
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 11:03 PM
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Also in regards to ISON do you belive that it 'may' have built up electric energy; to the point that it may discharge with earths moon?
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 11:04 PM
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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Finally, Jim McCanney (an astronomy buff) has come out to declare that the Wormwood system with its seven planets is truly in a traffic merge with our system.
Quoting: PIN!occhia 34843287

Jim McCanney is an idiot who can't distinguish between hot pixels and actual objects in an image.

Wormwood with seven planets (he latched onto claims this timelapse showed the planet being followed by companions: [link to www.youtube.com] )? My ass, it's just a comet:

Oh, and he lied when he claimed NASA changed Pete's timelapse to remove the "planets." You can still it in their version:
Quoting: Dr. Astro

thanks for that info lol.My friend keeps sending me all McCanneys stuff.I cant make sense of it.I dont like people that state sources but wont say what/ot who they are.

I knew the 'planet' they were referring to was the comet Ison, but i couldnt for the life of me figure where these "other things(satellites-was the term i heard)or planets or'solar system" were-hot pixels? lmao wow.
i think because someone has a title "astrophysicist" everyone thinks that person knows everything and is legit.
I like thinking for myself, you just gave me the parts i couldnt make sense of in a sensible way.
Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 11:09 PM

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Re: Calculating the Position and Orientation of the Moon Part 2: Astrometric Validation
Finally, Jim McCanney (an astronomy buff) has come out to declare that the Wormwood system with its seven planets is truly in a traffic merge with our system.
Quoting: PIN!occhia 34843287

Jim McCanney is an idiot who can't distinguish between hot pixels and actual objects in an image.

Wormwood with seven planets (he latched onto claims this timelapse showed the planet being followed by companions: [link to www.youtube.com] )? My ass, it's just a comet:

Oh, and he lied when he claimed NASA changed Pete's timelapse to remove the "planets." You can still it in their version:
Quoting: Dr. Astro

thanks for that info lol.My friend keeps sending me all McCanneys stuff.I cant make sense of it.I dont like people that state sources but wont say what/ot who they are.

I knew the 'planet' they were referring to was the comet Ison, but i couldnt for the life of me figure where these "other things(satellites-was the term i heard)or planets or'solar system" were-hot pixels? lmao wow.
i think because someone has a title "astrophysicist" everyone thinks that person knows everything and is legit.
I like thinking for myself, you just gave me the parts i couldnt make sense of in a sensible way.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34858706

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Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2013 11:16 PM
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The fact that ancient stone rings still point to astronomical locations after thousands of years would lead credence to your hypothesis.
Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 11:17 PM

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Astro what is your personal opinion on venus slowing rotation?
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34860747

Allow me to quote myself on my personal opinion of the Venus slowed rotation story:
Personally, and this is just my opinion, I think there is some problem somewhere in the Magellan calculation of the rotation of Venus, probably to do with their ephemeris correction technique.
The alternative is that Venus sped up prior to Magellan arriving at the planet which is why pre-Magellan measurements as well as Venera-Magellan combined measurements showed a rotation rate slower than the Magellan-alone value and identical to the current value measured by Venus Express.

In that case, it's not simply a matter of Venus slowing down, nor does it mean that something strange is happening now that didn't happen before. Rather, it means that Venus' rotation is not stable over long periods of time and it was exactly this slow prior to Magellan, a fact being overlooked by the news media.
Quoting: Astromut

I think the Magellan determined number was simply wrong, which is why the determinations that were made prior to Magellan and those made in combination with Magellan agree with the recently determined value. That is just my opinion, other possibilities do exist, but I do not think it is a coincidence that the pre-Magellan determinations matched the current value.

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Dr. Astro (OP)
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02/20/2013 11:19 PM

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