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I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?

 
randomseb

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02/24/2013 04:06 AM

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
This is biologically what your brain does, it takes raw sensory data and builds an internal representation, and this representation is all we normally experience.
 Quoting: randomseb


I think i just don't like this term "experience" then. Because whats a dream? What are we doing when we day dream and are actively imagining something different. We can replay a scenario in our heads so many times, that the story begins to change, wether by adding something or forgetting something
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32900948


A dream is also an experience,.it's just that the input into the "internal representation engine" is different, so the output is different..

Another example to ponder is hallucinations. It's not the eyes that are screwing up, and it's certainly not that something is appearing in the world.
~ Sensing the Spheres
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Awakening is where there is No birth, no extinction;
It is seeing into the State of Suchness,
Absolutely transcending All categories constructed by mind.
- Lankavatara Sutra
Anonymous Coward
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02/24/2013 04:11 AM
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Do I cease to exist, hee ho? :<
 Quoting: calx


If you cease to think you're not feeding the ego anymore. You will cease to exist for that period as an ego, you will not feel as you- the ego, personality. What is left is the simple witness, he sees everything that comes to him, but not analysing any of it, it does not touch the ego, thinking machine. It's like as if you're transparent, not there, invisible.
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
It is important to note that when the ego disappears something else appears. But ego abandon has to be sincere, true, otherwise nothing will happen just as nothing happened to thousands of thinkers in the world who were looking for truth in life.
4Q529

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Do I cease to exist, hee ho? :<
 Quoting: calx


No such thing as the verb "to think".

It is a violation of Occam's Razor.

There is only thought: the thought of the 'thinker'.

If you do not hold to the thought of the 'thinker' 'thinking' itself into existence, you approach the very edge of psychosis.

See the opening passages of the Second Meditation of Descartes.

Briefly, Descartes had to 'think' himself into existence in order to prevent himself from going psychotic.

That is the function of the "beast of the earth" (Revelations 13:11 & Sura 27:82 of the Quran) consciousness of the 'thinker': to prevent the "beast of the sea" (Revelations 13:1) consciousness of the "self" from going psychotic.

Michael
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
It is important to note that when the ego disappears something else appears.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 643083


Right.

It's called psychosis.

Michael
Azeratel Axo

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Do I cease to exist, hee ho? :<
 Quoting: calx


No such thing as the verb "to think".

It is a violation of Occam's Razor.

There is only thought: the thought of the 'thinker'.

If you do not hold to the thought of the 'thinker' 'thinking' itself into existence, you approach the very edge of psychosis.

See the opening passages of the Second Meditation of Descartes.

Briefly, Descartes had to 'think' himself into existence in order to prevent himself from going psychotic.

That is the function of the "beast of the earth" (Revelations 13:11 & Sura 27:82 of the Quran) consciousness of the 'thinker': to prevent the "beast of the sea" (Revelations 13:1) consciousness of the "self" from going psychotic.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


That is fascinating, Michael. Thank you for sharing. hf
4Q529

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Do I cease to exist, hee ho? :<
 Quoting: calx


If you cease to think you're not feeding the ego anymore. You will cease to exist for that period as an ego, you will not feel as you- the ego, personality. What is left is the simple witness, he sees everything that comes to him, but not analysing any of it, it does not touch the ego, thinking machine. It's like as if you're transparent, not there, invisible.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 643083


The third dimension of consciousness--the non-dualistic "observing consciousness" Created "by and in the image of God" (Genesis 1:27)--is on the other side of psychosis.

Until you can observe the very origin of the "beast of the sea" consciousness of the "self"--as John describes in the Revelation of John by saying "I was standing on the seashore and saw a beast emerge from the sea"--you have no direct experience of the "observing consciousness".

Michael
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
This is biologically what your brain does, it takes raw sensory data and builds an internal representation, and this representation is all we normally experience.
 Quoting: randomseb


I think i just don't like this term "experience" then. Because whats a dream? What are we doing when we day dream and are actively imagining something different. We can replay a scenario in our heads so many times, that the story begins to change, wether by adding something or forgetting something
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32900948


A dream is also an experience,.it's just that the input into the "internal representation engine" is different, so the output is different..

Another example to ponder is hallucinations. It's not the eyes that are screwing up, and it's certainly not that something is appearing in the world.
 Quoting: randomseb


Hallucinations are an interesting topic. I understand what your saying, but have you ever thought of certain hallucinations as things that some can see, while everyone else is unable? Most hallucinations, Ill agree is all in the head or the wiring thats connecting it. But im not sold on all
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
It is important to note that when the ego disappears something else appears.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 643083


Right.

It's called psychosis.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Bingo!
4Q529

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
It is important to note that when the ego disappears something else appears.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 643083


Right.

It's called psychosis.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Bingo!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15720612


Sure.

But that is not the end of the story.

Out of that psychosis emerges that other dimension of consciousness...

That dimension of consciousness that is capable of 'walking on the water' of the psychosis of the 'unconscious'.


Also symbolized in Chapter 12 of the Revelation of John as the "woman adorned with the sun and standing on the moon...crying aloud in the pangs of childbirth".

This is also what is dealt with by the Jungian analysts.

Michael
leonine

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
If OP is not thinking, then he misspells the last word of this threads title. If one is still alive, without thought, then one is unaware of their existence.

Last Edited by leonine on 02/24/2013 06:40 AM
lizard king
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Then you misspell the last word of this threads title? If you are still alive, without thought, then you are unaware of your existence.
 Quoting: leonine


Simply wrong.

You don't have to 'think' to be aware of sensations and perceptions.

You don't have to 'think' to feel emotions.

All that is necessary for awareness to occur is the 'movement' of self-reflection.

That occurs in the absence of thought.

Michael
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Then you misspell the last word of this threads title? If you are still alive, without thought, then you are unaware of your existence.
 Quoting: leonine



Yes, that’s why we ‘need’ to work it out now whilst we have a physical body.
leonine

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Does a feeling not have thought? If I feel heat is that not an observation? A determination? A thought process? True, it is an electrical response to stimuli, granted, but, is it of a mindless nature? If thought were not involved, wouldn't we be akin to frogs, and simply boil to death? Without thought, people would cease to exist. As is known, Humans, for the most part, lack instincts, or at least the ability to access them. We lack the ability to simply know that which we as yet have learned. Without thought we parish. Do we not gauge our emotions at all times? Do we not analyze first, and feel second? Without a frame of reference, without thought, how would we even experience or quantify emotion? To feel sad is a decision that we make. It is often based on beliefs and past experience, which are thoughts as well. The only bodily processes that I can think of offhand that are without thought are autonomic functions, like the heart, breathing, and such. I think that guy with the razor, Occam, is blowing smoke up our backsides, so as to maintain advantage over a useless eater such as myself.

Last Edited by leonine on 02/24/2013 06:28 AM
lizard king
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Does a feeling not have thought? If I feel heat is that not an observation? A determination? A thought process? True, it is an electrical response to stimuli, granted, but, is it of a mindless nature? If thought were not involved, wouldn't we be akin to frogs, and simply boil to death? Without thought, people would cease to exist. As is known, Humans, for the most part, lack instincts, or at least the ability to access them. We lack the ability to simply know that which we as yet have learned. Without thought we parish. Do we not gauge our emotions at all times? Do we not analyze first, and feel second? Without a frame of reference, without thought, how would we even experience or quantify emotion? To feel sad is a decision that we make. It is often based on beliefs and past experience, which are thoughts as well. The only bodily processes that I can think of offhand that are without thought are autonomic functions, like the heart, breathing, and such. I think that guy with the razor, Occam, is blowing smoke up our backsides, so as to maintain advantage over a useless eater such as myself.
 Quoting: leonine


Are feelings associated with thoughts? Of course they are. But they are not the same thing. As stated in the Revelation of John, "the second beast [the "beast of the earth" consciousness of the 'thinker'] is servant to the first beast" [the "beast of the sea" consciousness of the "self"].

No we do NOT "analyze" first and feel second.

That is a mistake many men make, but few women would make; women being much closer to reality than men are.

Ever meet a poisonous snake on a garden path?

The first thing you do is jump or run. The second thing you do is feel fear. The third thing you do is 'think' that you almost were bitten.

Michael

Last Edited by 4Q529 on 02/24/2013 06:41 AM
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Unless you're an Aussie or a Brit you never really stop thinking.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. ~Arthur C. Clarke

Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. ~Mark Twain

He's a nut-bag! Just because the fucker's got a library card doesn't make him Yoda ~David Mills ~ Se7en!

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Does a feeling not have thought? If I feel heat is that not an observation? A determination? A thought process? True, it is an electrical response to stimuli, granted, but, is it of a mindless nature? If thought were not involved, wouldn't we be akin to frogs, and simply boil to death? Without thought, people would cease to exist. As is known, Humans, for the most part, lack instincts, or at least the ability to access them. We lack the ability to simply know that which we as yet have learned. Without thought we parish. Do we not gauge our emotions at all times? Do we not analyze first, and feel second? Without a frame of reference, without thought, how would we even experience or quantify emotion? To feel sad is a decision that we make. It is often based on beliefs and past experience, which are thoughts as well. The only bodily processes that I can think of offhand that are without thought are autonomic functions, like the heart, breathing, and such. I think that guy with the razor, Occam, is blowing smoke up our backsides, so as to maintain advantage over a useless eater such as myself.
 Quoting: leonine


Are feelings associated with thoughts? Of course they are. But they are not the same thing. As stated in the Revelation of John, "the second beast [the "beast of the earth" consciousness of the 'thinker'] is servant to the first beast" [the "beast of the sea" consciousness of the "self"].

No we do NOT "analyze" first and feel second.

That is a mistake many men make, but few women would make; women being much closer to reality than men are.

Ever meet a poisonous snake on a garden path?

The first thing you do is jump or run. The second thing you do is feel fear. The third thing you do is 'think' that you almost were bitten.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


So you’ve never looked at your bank balance and experienced a sinking feeling?
4Q529

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Does a feeling not have thought? If I feel heat is that not an observation? A determination? A thought process? True, it is an electrical response to stimuli, granted, but, is it of a mindless nature? If thought were not involved, wouldn't we be akin to frogs, and simply boil to death? Without thought, people would cease to exist. As is known, Humans, for the most part, lack instincts, or at least the ability to access them. We lack the ability to simply know that which we as yet have learned. Without thought we parish. Do we not gauge our emotions at all times? Do we not analyze first, and feel second? Without a frame of reference, without thought, how would we even experience or quantify emotion? To feel sad is a decision that we make. It is often based on beliefs and past experience, which are thoughts as well. The only bodily processes that I can think of offhand that are without thought are autonomic functions, like the heart, breathing, and such. I think that guy with the razor, Occam, is blowing smoke up our backsides, so as to maintain advantage over a useless eater such as myself.
 Quoting: leonine


Are feelings associated with thoughts? Of course they are. But they are not the same thing. As stated in the Revelation of John, "the second beast [the "beast of the earth" consciousness of the 'thinker'] is servant to the first beast" [the "beast of the sea" consciousness of the "self"].

No we do NOT "analyze" first and feel second.

That is a mistake many men make, but few women would make; women being much closer to reality than men are.

Ever meet a poisonous snake on a garden path?

The first thing you do is jump or run. The second thing you do is feel fear. The third thing you do is 'think' that you almost were bitten.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


So you’ve never looked at your bank balance and experienced a sinking feeling?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35067334


Certainly, an appropriate question.

First, the consciousness of the "self" sees the numbers (all perceptions and sensations and emotions come within the purview of the consciousness of the "self"); then the consciousness of the 'thinker' analyzes what those numbers mean; then the consciousness of the "self" freaks out.

There is a very close relationship between the consciousness of the "self" and the consciousness of the 'thinker'; the interaction of which can, perhaps, best be described as the generation of a "butterfly strange attractor".

Michael
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
[link to www.stuffistumbledupon.com]
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
I think therefore I am SINGLE.
If I were not thinking I would be not single.
I prefer to THINK.
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Does a feeling not have thought? If I feel heat is that not an observation? A determination? A thought process? True, it is an electrical response to stimuli, granted, but, is it of a mindless nature? If thought were not involved, wouldn't we be akin to frogs, and simply boil to death? Without thought, people would cease to exist. As is known, Humans, for the most part, lack instincts, or at least the ability to access them. We lack the ability to simply know that which we as yet have learned. Without thought we parish. Do we not gauge our emotions at all times? Do we not analyze first, and feel second? Without a frame of reference, without thought, how would we even experience or quantify emotion? To feel sad is a decision that we make. It is often based on beliefs and past experience, which are thoughts as well. The only bodily processes that I can think of offhand that are without thought are autonomic functions, like the heart, breathing, and such. I think that guy with the razor, Occam, is blowing smoke up our backsides, so as to maintain advantage over a useless eater such as myself.
 Quoting: leonine


Are feelings associated with thoughts? Of course they are. But they are not the same thing. As stated in the Revelation of John, "the second beast [the "beast of the earth" consciousness of the 'thinker'] is servant to the first beast" [the "beast of the sea" consciousness of the "self"].

No we do NOT "analyze" first and feel second.

That is a mistake many men make, but few women would make; women being much closer to reality than men are.

Ever meet a poisonous snake on a garden path?

The first thing you do is jump or run. The second thing you do is feel fear. The third thing you do is 'think' that you almost were bitten.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


So you’ve never looked at your bank balance and experienced a sinking feeling?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35067334


Certainly, an appropriate question.

First, the consciousness of the "self" sees the numbers (all perceptions and sensations and emotions come within the purview of the consciousness of the "self"); then the consciousness of the 'thinker' analyzes what those numbers mean; then the consciousness of the "self" freaks out.

There is a very close relationship between the consciousness of the "self" and the consciousness of the 'thinker'; the interaction of which can, perhaps, best be described as the generation of a "butterfly strange attractor".

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Somebody says that you look great, you feel good, somebody says that you look awful, you feel bad.

Surely to transform the bad feeling into a good feeling would require the use of the intellect and thought.
4Q529

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
I think therefore I am SINGLE.
If I were not thinking I would be not single.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35003208


Sure you would.

The 'movement' of self-reflection creates your own 'spatiality' of consciousness referred to as the "self".

That 'spatiality' of consciousness is outside of my 'spatiality' of consciousness. You are part of my "not self" and vice versa. You and I do not inhabit the same 'spatiality' of consciousness.

It is only after that 'movement' of self-reflection that the consciousness of the 'thinker' comes in and says "single".

Michael
4Q529

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...


Are feelings associated with thoughts? Of course they are. But they are not the same thing. As stated in the Revelation of John, "the second beast [the "beast of the earth" consciousness of the 'thinker'] is servant to the first beast" [the "beast of the sea" consciousness of the "self"].

No we do NOT "analyze" first and feel second.

That is a mistake many men make, but few women would make; women being much closer to reality than men are.

Ever meet a poisonous snake on a garden path?

The first thing you do is jump or run. The second thing you do is feel fear. The third thing you do is 'think' that you almost were bitten.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


So you’ve never looked at your bank balance and experienced a sinking feeling?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35067334


Certainly, an appropriate question.

First, the consciousness of the "self" sees the numbers (all perceptions and sensations and emotions come within the purview of the consciousness of the "self"); then the consciousness of the 'thinker' analyzes what those numbers mean; then the consciousness of the "self" freaks out.

There is a very close relationship between the consciousness of the "self" and the consciousness of the 'thinker'; the interaction of which can, perhaps, best be described as the generation of a "butterfly strange attractor".

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Somebody says that you look great, you feel good, somebody says that you look awful, you feel bad.

Surely to transform the bad feeling into a good feeling would require the use of the intellect and thought.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35067334


Or, perhaps, will rather than thought.

Absolutely.

Words convey both the consciousness of the "self" and the consciousness of the 'thinker'; for example, poetry and the lyrics of songs are mostly consciousness of the "self", whereas science and philosophy are consciousness of a 'thinker'.

They are a way of conveying different kinds of energy to others who are conscious.

There are billions of examples of these interactions of consciousness. But it is important to understand that beyond these emotions and thoughts there is another dimension of consciousness altogether.

Michael
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Cogito ergo sum. It's nonsense. Descartes didn't intend it as a metaphysical statement, but as the only indubitable, i.e. self-evident proposition. In this regard he makes a subjective proposition the self-evident basis of knowledge and all other philosophical statements, and thus all philosophy and knowledge dependent upon that one proposition.

It's big contrast is the Aristotelian/Thomistic system, which recognizes a whole host of self-evident propositions, some more basic than others. For instance, "all actions aims at some good" is the self-evident first principle or axiom of action. "God exists" is, for Aquinas, the self-evident first principle of metaphysics. Descartes aimed to reject that system with his new theory by showing that all these other self-evident principles could be doubted.

Here's the problem: I think, therefore I am is not self-evident. Why? Because the "I" can be doubted. Hume makes this point effectively, but so did Spinoza. Further, this first axiom, if true, must also be supplemented with other propositions, such as "there is something of which I am aware."

Descartes really wasn't that smart, at least philosophically. But then, none of them were at that time. They attacked Thomism without understanding it.
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Hi Descartes, how's it going?


difficult to tell exactly what descartes meant by "think". Does it include all things mind? conscious experience / sensations?

Experiences are being experienced - There is a thing experiencing, with which i identify myself; therefore I exist.

So you could stop "thinking" as such - switch off the internal monologue / contemplation - and still be experiencing.
4Q529

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Cogito ergo sum. It's nonsense.
 Quoting: Alethian


Of course it is nonsense.

But, unwittingly, he described very precisely the two dimensions of the dualistic consciousness--that is, the "self" and the 'thinker'--which have been the foundation of Western science and psychology for hundreds of years; the role of the consciousness of the 'thinker' in maintaining the existence--that is, the continuity over time--of the consciousness of the "self"; as well as the role of thought in preventing psychosis.

No mean feat.

Michael
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Hi Descartes, how's it going?


difficult to tell exactly what descartes meant by "think".
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26851286


Not really.

First of all, it was a verb; which necessitates a noun.

Secondly, it was the expression of his preference for thought rather than experience.

For example, he said "I feel as though all of a sudden I have fallen into deep water."

He did NOT say: "I feel as though all of a sudden I have fallen into deep water....therefore I am."

He said: "I 'think', therefore, I am."

Michael
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Hi Descartes, how's it going?


difficult to tell exactly what descartes meant by "think". Does it include all things mind? conscious experience / sensations?

Experiences are being experienced - There is a thing experiencing, with which i identify myself; therefore I exist.

So you could stop "thinking" as such - switch off the internal monologue / contemplation - and still be experiencing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26851286


He means all mental activity. It's in Meditations, book 2. Thus it includes sensation, perception, cognition, reasoning, self-consciousness, etc.

But he says you can conceive of sensation without an object. So he thinks the subjective acts of thinking don't presuppose an external world.
4Q529

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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Here's the problem: I think, therefore I am is not self-evident. Why? Because the "I" can be doubted. Hume makes this point effectively, but so did Spinoza. Further, this first axiom, if true, must also be supplemented with other propositions, such as "there is something of which I am aware."
 Quoting: Alethian


But, here, you completely miss the point.

Unless you understand that any subsequent doubting of the "I" or the 'thinker' places the individual right back at the beginning of the Second Meditation of Descartes--that is, facing an emergent psychosis--you really do not understand the significance of the Meditations at all.

Anyone can simply doubt the existence of the "I" or the 'thinker'.

It is merely a trivial activity.

But Descartes' postulation of the thought of the 'thinker' saved him from psychosis. That is not something trivial.

At least he had the courage to look into the Abyss and then turn away to a focusing upon the existence of the "I" because of thought.

Michael
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Re: I think therefore I am. If I'm not thinking, then wat?
Hi Descartes, how's it going?


difficult to tell exactly what descartes meant by "think". Does it include all things mind? conscious experience / sensations?

Experiences are being experienced - There is a thing experiencing, with which i identify myself; therefore I exist.

So you could stop "thinking" as such - switch off the internal monologue / contemplation - and still be experiencing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26851286


He means all mental activity. It's in Meditations, book 2. Thus it includes sensation, perception, cognition, reasoning, self-consciousness, etc.
 Quoting: Alethian


All of that is after the fact.

He says these things after he has safely postulated the thought of the "I" or the 'thinker'.

He does NOT consider feeling as thought.

In the midst of an encounter with imminent psychosis, he grabs onto a specific thought; the thought of the "I" or the 'thinker' (Freud's "ego") to save him from psychosis.

Or he would have said "I feel as though....therefore I am."

Michael

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