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HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??

 
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 09:52 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
Just for the record, I like and very much respect Dr. Astro. I don't know Weasel and Halcyon. But it's cool. We can disagree on things.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen


Yeah but you have to ask yourself why are they here ?

Why do they want you to think what they think ..

What does it matter to them what you think ? it means alot by the sound of it ..
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 09:57 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
I said...
Did Americans land on the moon 1969 when the whole world was watching!? No!
why!?
Because, whole world was watching and there's numerous things that have could go wrong...numerous!
Even the "smallest" glitch could cause fiasco...and you got whole world watching it...and you got "bad,mean Russians" just waiting for Americans to "slip"
So, they recorded that in studio...
Think about it!!!
Maybe they went to moon numerous time before that and after that...I don't know...
but I'm pretty sure people didn't see real landing on the moon that 1969.
Think about it...it's just that simple!
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 09:58 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
Why do posters like nomuse,astro come to a conspiracy site and defend nasa ? and not only that but spend a hell of a lot of time doing it,years infact ? why do they care if people on a conspiracy site think apollo was fake ? what do they have to gain by spending time here ?

Wouldn't they be better off at jref ?

Thanks to posters like nomuse and other nasa defenders, i'm now convinced more than ever that the moon landings are fake, because their presance here is very strange.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35518192


bump it
John Cocktosen

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03/04/2013 09:58 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
I said...
Did Americans land on the moon 1969 when the whole world was watching!? No!
why!?
Because, whole world was watching and there's numerous things that have could go wrong...numerous!
Even the "smallest" glitch could cause fiasco...and you got whole world watching it...and you got "bad,mean Russians" just waiting for Americans to "slip"
So, they recorded that in studio...
Think about it!!!
Maybe they went to moon numerous time before that and after that...I don't know...
but I'm pretty sure people didn't see real landing on the moon that 1969.
Think about it...it's just that simple!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35554920


I think you make a good point. A lunar "fail" would be not only catastrophic for Americans to witness, but embarrassing to have happen on a world stage.
The Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through the Van Allen Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.

Tip the butler. Blow the shofar.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..."
John Cocktosen

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03/04/2013 09:59 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
Just for the record, I like and very much respect Dr. Astro. I don't know Weasel and Halcyon. But it's cool. We can disagree on things.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen


Yeah but you have to ask yourself why are they here ?

Why do they want you to think what they think ..

What does it matter to them what you think ? it means alot by the sound of it ..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35518192


Yeah, I hear ya. In my opinion, Dr. Astro has good intentions. Not sure about the other two. Halcyon seems a bit obsessed.
The Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through the Van Allen Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.

Tip the butler. Blow the shofar.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..."
John Cocktosen

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03/04/2013 10:01 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
It's hard to take Halcyon Dayz seriously when his avatar is a piece of sh*t with an antenna sticking out of it. LOL Seriously, is that what that is?
The Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through the Van Allen Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.

Tip the butler. Blow the shofar.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..."
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 10:08 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
Avatars aside why are they here, why are they on abovetopshite and other sites which they have no intrest in..

They spend year upon year defending nasa and all for free or so they say.

Why Is the BIG question my friend.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 10:09 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
the supposedly transmitted videos are understandably low resolution. but high reso and panoramic recording that they could have brought back were not provided the public. was there any high reso video?
Rose
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03/04/2013 10:11 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
A few years ago, NASA made headlines with their announcement that they planned to publish a book proving that they landed men on the moon with Apollo. This made the media rounds, talking heads discussed it; it was well publicized. Then a funny thing happened. A few months later, to NO fanfair and barely any press, NASA quietly canceled its plans to publish said book. As a matter of fact, try to find the announcement of NASA canceling the book on Google.

Someone earlier in the thread speculated that NASA canceled its book plans because "moon hoax people wouldn't believe it anyway". There are 2 things wrong with this speculation. First, in writing a book like this, the objective wouldn't be to convince the "moon hoax" people. It would be to convince the undecideds. Second, if someone chose not to write a book because their opponents wouldn't agree with it, NOTHING would ever be written.

Regarding allegedly taking an entire vehicle to the moon with them on Apollo 15, 16, and 17, it's interesting that one of the many criticisms of the Apollo missions is that the protection needed for humans to safely transit the Apollo capsule through the Van Allen radiation belts (during heightened solar storm activity to boot in 1969-70) would require a thick lead lining around the capsule. NASA opted not to utilize this thick, protective layer of lead because it would surpass the weight restrictions for Apollo and its Saturn V rocket. (Interesting note: NASA concerned about being able to lift off with the proper weight, but not about the Apollo astronauts' lives passing through the Van Allen radiation belts. Is this because Apollo lifted off and never went through the Van Allen radiation belts, but merely orbited the earth in Low Earth Orbit (LEO) for 8 days, as we, and every single other nation, have done exclusively since Apollo?). What's interesting, then, about taking an entire vehicle (the lunar rover) on board the Apollo capsule is: Wouldn't that extra weight be better served as lead protection for the astronauts from deadly radiation from the Van Allen radiation belts?

Another dirty little secret is that, although the prowess of Dr. Werner von Braun was much ballyhooed about regarding his acquisition by America via Operation Paperclip, the Soviets procured the best of the German rocket scientists. Remember, the Russians reached Berlin first. And the Russian space program was head and shoulders above America's...until we suddenly leap-frogged past them, landed men on the moon successfully 6 times, and they never put man on the moon? Russians, besides procuring brilliant German rocket scientists after WWII, have had a tradition of brilliance in science. Further, when the U.S. developed the first atomic weapons, did the Russians stop trying? No. Through espionage, and the huge pool of capable Russian scientists, the Soviets were able, in just a few years, to also develop nuclear weapons. The Manhattan Project was the most top secret program in American history. Within just a few years, the Soviets achieved nuclear parity with America. Yet, Russia never went to the moon? Hmmmm...doesn't make sense; unless you realize that America had one thing the Russians never possessed: Hollywood. Our ace in the hole. As I've said before, although there are "scientific" reasons to doubt that we landed men on the moon with Apollo, the thrust of the doubt comes from logical considerations. And that, sadly, is what the robotic, borg-like thinking of Halcyon Dayz fails (is incapable?) to comprehend.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen


clappa

bump
John Cocktosen

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03/04/2013 10:12 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
What i find stupid about space exploration is that we barrely know our oceans and want to go in space...

did you knew that by blending crude oil with water you can make Water buble big enough to be substain underwater and reproduce the effect of Very deep Air under the ocean.


Deep air in the abyss of the oceans can not come back up!

just send a lot of air there making a big bubble with a a metal casing in forms of spirals like oven spirals on the outside to maintain the size of the air buble with valves that go to the surface of waters to recycle the quality of air.

living in the bottom of the abysses would give us a very similar experiance of space travel, whitout costing bazilions of dollars.

Let the elites go to mars if they so wish to go!

We will go underwater.

If your wondering how we can bring air down there... the same way you blow bubbles with a stray on your milkshake!
 Quoting: Blitz the storm-striker



there are lots of underwater et bases. look thru google earth and discern the domes and miles of tunnel lines and you will sense that beings are using them. the military industrial agencies tries sonar weapons on them and in the process damage whales and some mermaids
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35138294


There are rumors of such anamolies in the waters around Iceland.
The Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through the Van Allen Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.

Tip the butler. Blow the shofar.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..."
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35138294
Philippines
03/04/2013 10:16 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
What i find stupid about space exploration is that we barrely know our oceans and want to go in space...

did you knew that by blending crude oil with water you can make Water buble big enough to be substain underwater and reproduce the effect of Very deep Air under the ocean.


Deep air in the abyss of the oceans can not come back up!

just send a lot of air there making a big bubble with a a metal casing in forms of spirals like oven spirals on the outside to maintain the size of the air buble with valves that go to the surface of waters to recycle the quality of air.

living in the bottom of the abysses would give us a very similar experiance of space travel, whitout costing bazilions of dollars.

Let the elites go to mars if they so wish to go!

We will go underwater.

If your wondering how we can bring air down there... the same way you blow bubbles with a stray on your milkshake!
 Quoting: Blitz the storm-striker



there are lots of underwater et bases. look thru google earth and discern the domes and miles of tunnel lines and you will sense that beings are using them. the military industrial agencies tries sonar weapons on them and in the process damage whales and some mermaids
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35138294


There are rumors of such anamolies in the waters around Iceland.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen



lots of artifacts of old civilization can also be found but it will not support the theory that humans/humanoid existed way beyond that can be computed from lineage of old testament
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 10:19 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
the nazi's were earlier to be guests on the moon because they have earlier arrangement with greys
Dr. Astro
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03/04/2013 11:12 AM

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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


The NASA images aren't very definitive are they?
 Quoting: Just the facts!

Yes, they are.

They're also consistent with the known specifications of the LRO optics. Thanks.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


Mmm... I believe they left a reflector on the moon for range finding? But! If they can't optically see it, how do they bounce a laser off it?

spock
 Quoting: Just the facts!


What does that even have to do with anything I said? They know the coordinates of the landing site, and by the time the laser beam reaches the moon it's spread out enough that they are able to hit the retroreflector.
astrobanner2
Dr. Astro
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03/04/2013 11:15 AM

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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
I love it, the more these nasa defenders post the more i think it was fake.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35518192

That's not logical or rational. That is your choice though.
And yet no one believes a word they say, so why bother, is it really important to you guys or is IT YOUR JOB ?

Ok nasa defenders, why the hell do you care if me or anyone else on this site thinks the moon landings where fake, why is it so important to you what the heck i think, if i come to conclusion it was all a hoax, so be it, what the hell does it matter to you ??
 Quoting: AC


Here we go with the shill bullshit again. I don't care if anyone believes anything I say, I enjoy speaking the truth regardless. That said, you do not speak for everyone here, so kindly shove off. Your personal opinion is irrelevant to my decision to be here.
astrobanner2
Dr. Astro
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03/04/2013 11:16 AM

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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
...and how could we get through it safely on our way to the moon??
 Quoting: Just the facts!

Simple. It's not enough to be dangerous given Apollo's trajectory. It also does not suggest that the belts are more dangerous than we previously though; it was a temporary feature during a time when the outer belt was itself diminished.
"The shock wave scoured away much of the outer ring and then divided the remains into two distinct sections"
[link to www.scientificamerican.com]
That in no way implies a greater amount of total flux in the belts. In reality, there was a lower total flux during the period of time in which the new middle belt existed.

Here's the actual data from the probes. Part a. shows the normal, classic distribution of the van allen belts (what NASA would have expected in 1969):
[link to img831.imageshack.us]
Part b. shows a period of time where the outer belt had been depleted by the first shock wave, but at this point the distribution itself is still "classic" with a single inner belt and outer belt. Part c. shows the new distribution of the remaining electrons, which is now more diffuse and lower in flux than the classic distribution, but has a new gap within what used to be a single outer belt, thus there are now three belts instead of two. Part e. shows the annihilation of the outer belt region due to another shock wave. About a week later the distribution returned to the normal classic configuration seen in part a. due to another shock wave.

So no, not a problem for Apollo. If anything had this been the configuration of the belts during their departure for the moon or their return to earth, it would mean that they would have received even less of a dose than would otherwise be expected, and the normally expected dose given their trajectory and the areal density of their spacecraft (7~8 g/cm^2) was anything but dangerous:
[link to i319.photobucket.com]
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


I notice this got completely ignored.
astrobanner2
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 11:21 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
They don't make space suits like they used to...
 Quoting: BuggedOut


Yeah apparently we need some more of that space age late 60's technology!

What happened to us - did we just forget how to do stuff - I mean it's obvious that the computers we have now are shit compared to late 60's tech what with how they were able to program, pilot, land, blast off, re-couple and return to earth using total computing power of less than that of the average smartphone.

Hell, they even beamed back live coverage of the landing and take-off from the surface of the moon (I kinda feel sorry for the camera man who was left behind and is unknown and unsung in the history of our illustrious space program) while today we STILL get dropped cellphone calls and there is a patchwork of no cell coverage areas across the U.S.

Ditto with the micro meteorite defying anti radiation playtex space suits that could go from 253 F (123 C) in full sunlight to -243 F (153 C) in the shade without so much as any loss of surface plaibility or suit integrity let alone any noticeable discomfort to person wearing the suit.

Man these are the new dark ages.

(My thanks to Dave McGowan for his Wag the Moon Doggie Series! Look it up if you haven;t read it!!)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2836766


You just described a couple of the hundreds of reasons why the moon landing was faked. Our entire history is faked.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 11:22 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
I love it, the more these nasa defenders post the more i think it was fake.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35518192

That's not logical or rational. That is your choice though.
And yet no one believes a word they say, so why bother, is it really important to you guys or is IT YOUR JOB ?

Ok nasa defenders, why the hell do you care if me or anyone else on this site thinks the moon landings where fake, why is it so important to you what the heck i think, if i come to conclusion it was all a hoax, so be it, what the hell does it matter to you ??
 Quoting: AC


Here we go with the shill bullshit again. I don't care if anyone believes anything I say, I enjoy speaking the truth regardless. That said, you do not speak for everyone here, so kindly shove off. Your personal opinion is irrelevant to my decision to be here.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


I never said you was a shill i just asked why you was here on a site that you have no intrest in, you clearly don't believe in conspiracys so why are you here ??

So YOU SHOVE OFF you are not wanted here.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 11:24 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
I love it, the more these nasa defenders post the more i think it was fake.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35518192

That's not logical or rational. That is your choice though.
And yet no one believes a word they say, so why bother, is it really important to you guys or is IT YOUR JOB ?

Ok nasa defenders, why the hell do you care if me or anyone else on this site thinks the moon landings where fake, why is it so important to you what the heck i think, if i come to conclusion it was all a hoax, so be it, what the hell does it matter to you ??
 Quoting: AC


Here we go with the shill bullshit again. I don't care if anyone believes anything I say, I enjoy speaking the truth regardless. That said, you do not speak for everyone here, so kindly shove off. Your personal opinion is irrelevant to my decision to be here.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


I never said you was a shill i just asked why you was here on a site that you have no intrest in, you clearly don't believe in conspiracys so why are you here ??

So YOU SHOVE OFF you are not wanted here
.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35518192


you couldnt be more wrong.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 11:32 AM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
NASA discovers NEW Van Allen Belt!

So, if we didn't know about this, what else don't we know about?

[link to science.nasa.gov]

...and how could we get through it safely on our way to the moon??

spock
 Quoting: Just the facts!

How do you manage to use a computer?
Sometimes you just get by, on dumb luck.
--Voltaic--

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03/04/2013 12:24 PM

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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
First symptom would have been glitter vision (phosphene). The level of radiation they would have gotten is easily lethal in short time.
 Quoting: --Voltaic--

So WHAT WAS THE LEVEL of radiation?

Why are hoaxies always so afraid of actual numbers?
book
 Quoting: Halcyon Dayz, FCD


My fault, it was the electronics they used that would have died (not worked).

Total brain fart, lol.

It was a long time ago I did the research. WAY before the internet and GLP.

The circuits they used with the protection they offered was not enough to protect the circuits.

At the time, the radiation belts were unknown.



I'm not convinced either way. It is possible the radiation belts at the time were much weaker. OR they are a part of an oscillating, natural cycle and at the time is was weak enough to allow the Apollo missions to succeed.

Maybe this is why we don't go back until recently.

Last Edited by --Voltaic-- on 03/04/2013 12:26 PM
Do your absolute best and the rest is fate.
Just the facts! (OP)

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03/04/2013 01:20 PM

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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
...


The NASA images aren't very definitive are they?
 Quoting: Just the facts!

Yes, they are.

They're also consistent with the known specifications of the LRO optics. Thanks.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


Mmm... I believe they left a reflector on the moon for range finding? But! If they can't optically see it, how do they bounce a laser off it?

spock
 Quoting: Just the facts!


What does that even have to do with anything I said? They know the coordinates of the landing site, and by the time the laser beam reaches the moon it's spread out enough that they are able to hit the retroreflector.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


Sorry let's just get this quite clear!

What you're saying is, NASA or whoever it is, just shoots a laser beam in the general direction of the reflector in the vain hope that some, now very diffused light might just hit it and bounce back in an even more diffused form to be collected and used for accurate measurements?

Not very scientific is it?

spock
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth"
nomuse (not logged in)
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03/04/2013 01:39 PM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
A few years ago, NASA made headlines with their announcement that they planned to publish a book proving that they landed men on the moon with Apollo. This made the media rounds, talking heads discussed it; it was well publicized. Then a funny thing happened. A few months later, to NO fanfair and barely any press, NASA quietly canceled its plans to publish said book. As a matter of fact, try to find the announcement of NASA canceling the book on Google.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen


NASA never made a fuss about the proposal. Which wasn't a particularly expensive one, either; it was towards the low end of a typical book job. Some press picked up the story, while they were noising about it NASA thought it over and decided the book wasn't so good a deal. They didn't break contract; it was a proposal that was considered strongly for a while then people moved on. Which NASA does all the time; their books are full of proposals (mostly much more expensive ones involving functional spacecraft and missions), that never came to pass.

Someone earlier in the thread speculated that NASA canceled its book plans because "moon hoax people wouldn't believe it anyway". There are 2 things wrong with this speculation. First, in writing a book like this, the objective wouldn't be to convince the "moon hoax" people. It would be to convince the undecideds. Second, if someone chose not to write a book because their opponents wouldn't agree with it, NOTHING would ever be written.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen


The truly undecided are better reached with the existing history and documentation. It is almost a contradiction in terms; to make a book that exists only to argue "for" something as if there is real reason to believe there is a legitimate "against." Every time anyone takes on one of the denier claims -- as Mythbusters did, for instance -- they also inadvertently publicize that claim for people who may not have heard it before. NASA feels -- they have almost always held to this line -- that debunking is counter-productive and does not fall under their mission of exploration and education.

Even in the mainstream of debunking, most of the energy is towards using the flawed thinking of the denier claims merely as a jumping-off point for educational writing. This is what Mythbusters does, this is what Phil Plait's first book was about, this is what most of my posting is.


Regarding allegedly taking an entire vehicle to the moon with them on Apollo 15, 16, and 17, it's interesting that one of the many criticisms of the Apollo missions is that the protection needed for humans to safely transit the Apollo capsule through the Van Allen radiation belts (during heightened solar storm activity to boot in 1969-70) would require a thick lead lining around the capsule. NASA opted not to utilize this thick, protective layer of lead because it would surpass the weight restrictions for Apollo and its Saturn V rocket. (Interesting note: NASA concerned about being able to lift off with the proper weight, but not about the Apollo astronauts' lives passing through the Van Allen radiation belts. Is this because Apollo lifted off and never went through the Van Allen radiation belts, but merely orbited the earth in Low Earth Orbit (LEO) for 8 days, as we, and every single other nation, have done exclusively since Apollo?). What's interesting, then, about taking an entire vehicle (the lunar rover) on board the Apollo capsule is: Wouldn't that extra weight be better served as lead protection for the astronauts from deadly radiation from the Van Allen radiation belts?
 Quoting: John Cocktosen


No. Lead is neither mandated nor appropriate, nor has it ever been considered by any space program.

Put it this way; there are million-dollar commercial satellites operating in the VARB right this moment. Are they lined with lead? No. They are protected, and their circuitry is hardened -- make no mistake about that. The interactions with the belt are a major consideration for their design and one of the restrictions on their lifetime. But that protection is not lead.

Secondly, the Rover was part of the J missions, which also included longer duration EVAs and larger sample returns.

But to understand why there are J missions, and how the round of upgrades worked, you'd have to grasp the principle of test flights. And that's a trick few deniers are capable of.



Another dirty little secret is that, although the prowess of Dr. Werner von Braun was much ballyhooed about regarding his acquisition by America via Operation Paperclip, the Soviets procured the best of the German rocket scientists. Remember, the Russians reached Berlin first. And the Russian space program was head and shoulders above America's...until we suddenly leap-frogged past them, landed men on the moon successfully 6 times, and they never put man on the moon? Russians, besides procuring brilliant German rocket scientists after WWII, have had a tradition of brilliance in science. Further, when the U.S. developed the first atomic weapons, did the Russians stop trying? No. Through espionage, and the huge pool of capable Russian scientists, the Soviets were able, in just a few years, to also develop nuclear weapons. The Manhattan Project was the most top secret program in American history. Within just a few years, the Soviets achieved nuclear parity with America. Yet, Russia never went to the moon? Hmmmm...doesn't make sense; unless you realize that America had one thing the Russians never possessed: Hollywood. Our ace in the hole. As I've said before, although there are "scientific" reasons to doubt that we landed men on the moon with Apollo, the thrust of the doubt comes from logical considerations. And that, sadly, is what the robotic, borg-like thinking of Halcyon Dayz fails (is incapable?) to comprehend.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen
nomuse (not logged in)
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03/04/2013 01:47 PM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
Mmm... I believe they left a reflector on the moon for range finding? But! If they can't optically see it, how do they bounce a laser off it?

 Quoting: Just the facts!


They know its coordinates.


Actually, there is a little more detail here. The Apollo Program dropped off three retro-reflector arrays, in two different sizes. The Soviets put an even smaller array (of somewhat different mechanical design) on the Lunkhod rovers.

The first pick-up of one of the targets was made by Lick, on the Apollo 11 LRRR. They knew they were aimed correctly because even though the beam is about 5 km in diameter when it hits the Moon, the return spike from the LRRR is very strong and sharply defined -- quite easy to discriminate from other stray light.

Various observatories over the years have "tuned in" on the LRRR, seeing when that spike appears. One of them managed to pick up the array on a Lunkhod that had lost contact, wandered off course, and was considered lost.

I may be getting a few details wrong. Start with the Apache Point Observatory's web site, which has several nice articles, and read on from there.

One of my favorite stories about the LRRR programs is one observatory that had nailed down all sorts of minor shifts -- even the change in surface height from the warming of the ground during the day! -- but had an error of several feet they couldn't resolve. Until they realized the survey point they were taking their figures from wasn't actually at the telescope, but had been placed out in the observatory's parking lot!
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
It's hard to take Halcyon Dayz seriously when his avatar is a piece of sh*t with an antenna sticking out of it. LOL Seriously, is that what that is?
 Quoting: John Cocktosen


I'd advise not saying that to the Sergeant.

"Ominous Hummmmmm..."






(It's a character from a very funny web comic.)
nomuse (not logged in)
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03/04/2013 01:52 PM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
the supposedly transmitted videos are understandably low resolution. but high reso and panoramic recording that they could have brought back were not provided the public. was there any high reso video?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35138294


In which universe do you live?

I have seen, and even have prints, of images that were made from negatives roughly the size of a frame of IMAX film.

And you can download scans of them easily.
nomuse (not logged in)
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03/04/2013 02:11 PM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
Sorry let's just get this quite clear!

What you're saying is, NASA or whoever it is, just shoots a laser beam in the general direction of the reflector in the vain hope that some, now very diffused light might just hit it and bounce back in an even more diffused form to be collected and used for accurate measurements?

Not very scientific is it?

 Quoting: Just the facts!


Yes, I'm afraid so. Not very scientific. Perhaps you should stop using the Spock image.


First thing you have to think about is the fact that they are using a laser. What makes a laser interesting is not just spacial coherence, but tight control of frequency and temporal coherence.

So first off, you aren't looking for photons to return from the Moon. You are looking for photons at -- say -- 532 nanometers. And you aren't looking for a flash to happen "some time." You know the speed of light, and you know the distance of the Moon (some Greek guys figured it out a few years ago). So you are looking for a change in illumination at the detector that is happening during a precise fraction of a second.

In fact, these observatories are using pulsed lasers with pulse lengths in the nanometer range -- pulse lengths shorter than the wavelength of the photons themselves! And they are sending out multiple pulses, spaced a very carefully timed distance apart.

So rather than looking for a single flash, you are looking for a PATTERN to appear in the data coming off the photodetector. Which is, of course, mounted behind a high-power telescope which is aimed right at the known location of the reflector.

And, yes, the spot on Earth has spread to a good fifty miles in diameter.

Which, however, if you drew to scale, would be damned near a straight line. Because this is over the distance from the Earth to the Moon -- 250 THOUSAND miles. That's a divergence of one part in 50 thousand.

As a first approximation, light coming off any OTHER part of the Moon is following the inverse-square law; 250 thousand miles from the Moon, those photons are spread over an area that is 250 thousand times 250 thousand miles.

So as a first approximation, that little corner-cube array is sending light back towards your observatory some 10 MILLION times more efficiently than the rest of the Moon.



(There's a lot more detail to this and it is fascinating. Take just for a starter that the Moon is not in fact Lambertian, but is overall an anisotropic reflector -- an optical effect most notable at Full Moon. Or there is the function of the corner-cube reflector, an effect seen not just in crosswalks, Nike shoes, and dewdrops, but biologically in the form of the tapetum lucidum -- which to the dismay of many people dropped out of the primate lineage right after our ancestors parted company with the Ay-Ay.)
Halcyon Dayz, FCD
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03/04/2013 02:21 PM

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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
Mmm... I believe they left a reflector on the moon for range finding? But! If they can't optically see it, how do they bounce a laser off it?
 Quoting: Just the facts!

By knowing where they are.
The same way ICBMs can hit Moscow without actually seeing it.
book


I love it, the more these nasa defenders post the more i think it was fake.
 Quoting: Japanese Coward 35518192

This is know as the Shill Gambit and it is only ever used by people who cannot support their claims with facts and evidence.
Because if they could they would.
book

the moon landing has a backup ready made footage and pictures. the grainy footage were videos with props and film showing behind. then it was projected further and filmed again and deliberately lowered in resolution.
 Quoting: Philipino Coward 35138294

Everything that can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Just stating your believe is useless.

the supposedly transmitted videos are understandably low resolution. but high reso and panoramic recording that they could have brought back were not provided the public. was there any high reso video?
 Quoting: Philipino Coward 35138294

They brought back 16mm film from the Data Acquisition Camera.
And of course thousands of high resolution photographs.
Which is of course are all publicly available.

The question here is of course why don't you know that?
Why are hoaxies always people who know absolutely nothing about Apollo, space travel, space engineering, astronomy, physics, history, economics, etcetera ad nauseam?
book

First symptom would have been glitter vision (phosphene). The level of radiation they would have gotten is easily lethal in short time.
 Quoting: --Voltaic--

So WHAT WAS THE LEVEL of radiation?

Why are hoaxies always so afraid of actual numbers?
book
 Quoting: Halcyon Dayz, FCD

My fault, it was the electronics they used that would have died (not worked).
 Quoting: --Voltaic--

Proof it.

Total brain fart, lol.
 Quoting: --Voltaic--

Indeed.

The circuits they used with the protection they offered was not enough to protect the circuits.
 Quoting: --Voltaic--

Proof it.

At the time, the radiation belts were unknown.
 Quoting: --Voltaic--

A lie.

And still no numbers...
book

Last Edited by Halcyon Dayz, FCD on 03/04/2013 02:34 PM
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.


Hi! My name is Halcyon Dayz and I'm addicted to morans.
Just the facts! (OP)

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03/04/2013 02:31 PM

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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
Sorry let's just get this quite clear!

What you're saying is, NASA or whoever it is, just shoots a laser beam in the general direction of the reflector in the vain hope that some, now very diffused light might just hit it and bounce back in an even more diffused form to be collected and used for accurate measurements?

Not very scientific is it?

 Quoting: Just the facts!


Yes, I'm afraid so. Not very scientific. Perhaps you should stop using the Spock image.


First thing you have to think about is the fact that they are using a laser. What makes a laser interesting is not just spacial coherence, but tight control of frequency and temporal coherence.

So first off, you aren't looking for photons to return from the Moon. You are looking for photons at -- say -- 532 nanometers. And you aren't looking for a flash to happen "some time." You know the speed of light, and you know the distance of the Moon (some Greek guys figured it out a few years ago). So you are looking for a change in illumination at the detector that is happening during a precise fraction of a second.

In fact, these observatories are using pulsed lasers with pulse lengths in the nanometer range -- pulse lengths shorter than the wavelength of the photons themselves! And they are sending out multiple pulses, spaced a very carefully timed distance apart.

So rather than looking for a single flash, you are looking for a PATTERN to appear in the data coming off the photodetector. Which is, of course, mounted behind a high-power telescope which is aimed right at the known location of the reflector.

And, yes, the spot on Earth has spread to a good fifty miles in diameter.

Which, however, if you drew to scale, would be damned near a straight line. Because this is over the distance from the Earth to the Moon -- 250 THOUSAND miles. That's a divergence of one part in 50 thousand.

As a first approximation, light coming off any OTHER part of the Moon is following the inverse-square law; 250 thousand miles from the Moon, those photons are spread over an area that is 250 thousand times 250 thousand miles.

So as a first approximation, that little corner-cube array is sending light back towards your observatory some 10 MILLION times more efficiently than the rest of the Moon.



(There's a lot more detail to this and it is fascinating. Take just for a starter that the Moon is not in fact Lambertian, but is overall an anisotropic reflector -- an optical effect most notable at Full Moon. Or there is the function of the corner-cube reflector, an effect seen not just in crosswalks, Nike shoes, and dewdrops, but biologically in the form of the tapetum lucidum -- which to the dismay of many people dropped out of the primate lineage right after our ancestors parted company with the Ay-Ay.)
 Quoting: nomuse (not logged in) 2380183


Mmm... All very interesting! So, you do this type of work for a living then?

spock
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth"
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 02:35 PM
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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
The real reason that we could go to the moon then and we can't go now is because men were men back then and now there ain't nothing but a bunch of pussies.

Back then all we needed was a thin sheet of aluminum foil between the astronauts and outer space, now they say we need at least six feet of lead shielding. Pussies!

Back then we had real men who could go through the Van Allen belts and live into their seventies and more. Now today they say that going through the belts will kill you. What a bunch of pussies.

In the 60's real men didn't care or even think about solar radiation on the surface of the moon. No protection from Gamma rays or synchrotron radiation either. This is what pussies worry about. Back then we whacked a golf ball around the moon just to prove we could do it.

Physics couldn't stop real men back then.

Today we let physics push us around and dictate reality.

Pussies.
Halcyon Dayz, FCD
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03/04/2013 02:38 PM

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Re: HOW did we get to the MOON if we didn't know about this??
Do you even bother to read your own links? Your "If I ran a zoo" analogy is idiotic -- On one hand, you insinuate that NASA's book cancelation was a monetary decision. On the other hand, you link to an article that says something completely different: "Nasa declined to comment specifically on the reasons for dropping the publication, but it is understood the decision resulted from the bad publicity that followed the announcement of the project. Criticism that Nasa was displaying poor judgement and a lack of confidence in commissioning the book caused it to abort the project, agency spokesman Bob Jacobs said.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen

NASA can't comment on Congress.
The criticism was about NASA spending taxpayers money on a fool's errand.
You can't reason people out of a position they did not reason themselves into in the first place.
Considering the ridiculous amount of evidence hoaxies already ignore it is rather obvious that no amount of evidence can change their minds.

Prove they need lead shielding? The point IS: Prove they DIDN'T! That's the point.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen

You make the counter-factual claim, your burden of proof.
EVERY space-radiation expert disagrees with you. Proof them wrong.

You say that Russia was only ahead at first because they took excessive risks. Uh...isn't that how people get ahead? By taking excessive risks? Otherwise, we'd all be in the same spot, no? Again, do you read what you write?
 Quoting: John Cocktosen

At some point one needs to improve ones technology though.

You also write that Russia had an active program to get to the moon until 1974. And you add that "They couldn't get their heavy lifting booster ( the N-1) to work.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen

You disagree?

Hmmmm...so they just gave up? Interesting timing that the Russians "gave up" barely a year after the Apollo program ended.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen

Coming in second would only have emphasised they lost the space race.
The reason their moon project lasted so long was mainly bureaucratic inertia.

It's almost as if they were in cahoots.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen

Than what was the point of the Space Race.
And why would they?
And why wouldn't the Soviets fake their own Moon missions?

And don't say they were bought of with grain.
The USSR had record harvest during that period, how could they have known they would need grain in the late 70s?

Just for the record, I like and very much respect Dr. Astro. I don't know Weasel and Halcyon. But it's cool. We can disagree on things.
 Quoting: John Cocktosen

Not on physical facts.
You practically claimed, prolly without realising it, that there is no such thing as bremsstralung.

It's hard to take Halcyon Dayz seriously when his avatar is a piece of sh*t with an antenna sticking out of it. LOL Seriously, is that what that is?
 Quoting: John Cocktosen

No.
Are you under some sort of delusion that hoaxism is taken serious by anyone that matters?
At all?
In the greater scheme of things the only purpose of hoaxies is to entertain us and to provide occasional educational opportunities.

IF you have any FACTS or EVIDENCE to support your accusations don't you think it's time to start presenting them?
So far you've only presented ignorance and red herrings.
Why are hoaxies so afraid of discussing the nuts and bolts of the issue?
Men on the Moon is a statement of physical facts.
It can only be disproven with physical facts.

Give it a shot.
Surprise us and make an actual argument.
book
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.


Hi! My name is Halcyon Dayz and I'm addicted to morans.