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Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34240456
United States
03/04/2013 12:47 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
My worry is that the person is suffering, choking, having trouble breathing and in terrible distress...If this is the case, definitely give CPR. I would want the patient/resident to be comfortable. If there is an DNR then respect their wishes but I would still feel awful having to watch a person struggling for air.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33042555


you can provide O2 to a pt that is not getting air the DNR only prevents you from doing CPR. the hymlick is not under dnr orders.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 12:53 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
CPR is not all that it is "cracked" up to be.

It has a lot of hugely negative aspects. First, it breaks ribs, which is an extremely painful injury to have.

Secondly, it rarely extends the person's life more than a few days while they die in agony with broken ribs.

Not giving CPR is a blessing and an enlightened policy for elderly people.

She did the right thing not further crippling the poor lady who died. Had the woman been given CPR it most likely have made her final minutes excruciatingly (sp?) painful.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 12:53 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
[quote:Superduper:MV8yMTU3MjcyXzM2NDYyNTMxX0I1NDAxRDU5]
It is true that this country is down the tubes, very especially regarding our elders. I take care of a 'very senior' senior who is a family member. I see the attitude of even doctors with elders, even those doctors who specialize in elder medical care. It's like the attitude is that 'well, this person has lived long enough and therefore they do not, in my estimation, deserve to live any longer or receive the same care as others, and certainly not in any dignified manner.'

And I disagree with all of the above. It's the latest "playing God trickling down effect".


As to whether the worker should have performed CPR - WELL HELL YES!



This was the same attitude I received from the doctor "caring" for my husband at the N.H...No matter what I said he would repeat his mantra: "He's old, he's had a stroke, he's a very sick man". In other words, he is not worth saving..Well, they got around the no DNR by not calling 911 until it was too late to do anything...I shudder to think how much agony he went through before he passed away.

As a Catholic Christian I am supposed to forgive and I try to..but it is very hard to do so..
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 12:56 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
CPR is not all that it is "cracked" up to be.

It has a lot of hugely negative aspects. First, it breaks ribs, which is an extremely painful injury to have.

Secondly, it rarely extends the person's life more than a few days while they die in agony with broken ribs.

Not giving CPR is a blessing and an enlightened policy for elderly people.

She did the right thing not further crippling the poor lady who died. Had the woman been given CPR it most likely have made her final minutes excruciatingly (sp?) painful.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 719828


yes well CPR may crack ribs and be painful but the pt also has a higher chance of living. cracked ribs are not life threatning, theres pain meds for the pain. and if you dont break ribs doing cpr your not compressing far enough
eddy

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03/04/2013 01:06 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
Wow, lots of emotion re this subject.

1. Nurses do NOT take an oath as one person suggested.

2. Time will tell, but I would think that a contract with a SNF is indeed a contract and therefore a legal binding act between the residents and the staff that CPR will not be done. Both parties are obligated.

3. No law suit will occur based on the contract and the daughters own statement.

4. People need to learn more about what happens to folks after CPR in the elderly, ie >80.

5. People need to understand that other peoples wishes are indeed their own and we should not project our own beliefs, desires, fears, etc upon them.

6. Almost all people in SNFs do indeed have DNRs, unless they are young and there strictly due to their debilitation, or for rehab etc.

7. We all need to think about how we can respect others desires and wishes.

8. We all need to put in writting our desires so our familes can see that they are carried out appropriately.

9. Please do not respond to my post. I do not want my BP to go up and ..............
joinca

User ID: 23928361
United States
03/04/2013 01:10 PM

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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
Glenwood Gardens visitors withhold judgment on nurse's refusal to provide CPR
Visitors to Glenwood Gardens said they were withholding judgment Sunday on reports that a nurse there refused a 911 dispatcher's pleas last week to perform CPR on a woman who had fallen unconscious and later died.
The article is here:
[link to www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com]
goodnews
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."-- Thomas Jefferson
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 33733231
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03/04/2013 01:11 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
"Jeffrey Toomer, executive director of Glenwood Gardens, issued a statement on behalf of the facility, extending his sympathies to the Bayless family. But Toomer also defended the nurse, saying she followed policy.

"In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community our practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives," he said. "That is the protocol we followed. As with any incident involving a resident, we will conduct a thorough internal review of this matter, but we have no further comments at this time."
[link to www.latimes.com]

So, apparently the nurses at this facility do nothing in any health emergency except call 911.
SunnyDaze

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03/04/2013 01:13 PM

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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
She was in a nursing home and had prolly already signed a DNR and the Nurse was prolly respecting her wishing and doing her job. Now if there was no DNR the yea the nurse should be in trouble.
 Quoting: notta



bingo ... and if there WAS a DNR (do not resuscitate) the staff could have been sued for taking life-saving measures

Last Edited by SunnyDaze on 03/04/2013 01:14 PM
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 01:14 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
5 dead stars.

dead dead dead dead dead
 Quoting: Rorschach


5 dead stars.

dead dead dead dead dead
 Quoting: Rorschach


lmao!!!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34760435
United States
03/04/2013 01:22 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
I just noticed something.......

There is no contract stating that CPR will not be administered.

The contract states that in this situation the employee is to call emergency services and stay with the patient until they arrive. In most situations this is fine. They are to do nothing until the emergency services arrive.

Why?

Because they do not want to be sued.

Remember the guy that refused to help a pregnant woman even though he was an off duty emergency worker. That is what they are told to do even though good samaritan laws should protect them from any type of litigation.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35565866
United Kingdom
03/04/2013 01:47 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
A 911 operator urges a staffer at a senior living center to perform CPR on an unconscious woman. KGET reports.

[link to www.cnn.com]




THIS BRINGS UP A GOOD QUESTION?? After I read To Heaven and Back by Neal

I feel we should not always do CPR do you??
 Quoting: Goofy for God


As I work at an old peoples home I will tell you that some people have a DNR on file, now usually that means we can't help them if they have an attack etc because they want to die. But if we don't have the correct forms, or it is deemed OK to CPR them then we will always follow the 911 operators guidelines regarding CPR. Because all calls are recorded we will use that as our proof in case we are sued for reviving an individual. We've never been sued, but we have been 'told off' before for saving lives and the person/s going on to live a long life well into old age.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34240456
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03/04/2013 01:52 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
I just noticed something.......

There is no contract stating that CPR will not be administered.

The contract states that in this situation the employee is to call emergency services and stay with the patient until they arrive. In most situations this is fine. They are to do nothing until the emergency services arrive.

Why?

Because they do not want to be sued.

Remember the guy that refused to help a pregnant woman even though he was an off duty emergency worker. That is what they are told to do even though good samaritan laws should protect them from any type of litigation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34760435


The aha standards have changed since the. It was abc now it's cab compression airway and the. Breathing thus making 50 compressions with no ventilation a viable also protects the Good Samaritan that dosnt wish.to lip lock the pt for fear of comuniciple desisease so if that EMT had the same choice today I'm sure he would administered CPR I'm positive his concern was he did not want to liplock
BRIEF
Rebel with morals

User ID: 381742
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03/04/2013 01:56 PM

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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
They signed the agreement going into the retirement home that they would just watch you flop on the floor and only call 911...always read the fine print...
With freedom comes responsibility.

Heterosexual pride!

Briefcut4892
Superduper
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03/04/2013 02:08 PM

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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
[quoteSuperduperMV8yMTU3MjcyXzM2NDYyNTMxX0I1NDAxRDU5]
It is true that this country is down the tubes, very especially regarding our elders. I take care of a 'very senior' senior who is a family member. I see the attitude of even doctors with elders, even those doctors who specialize in elder medical care. It's like the attitude is that 'well, this person has lived long enough and therefore they do not, in my estimation, deserve to live any longer or receive the same care as others, and certainly not in any dignified manner.'

And I disagree with all of the above. It's the latest "playing God trickling down effect".


As to whether the worker should have performed CPR - WELL HELL YES!

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33042555


This was the same attitude I received from the doctor "caring" for my husband at the N.H...No matter what I said he would repeat his mantra: "He's old, he's had a stroke, he's a very sick man". In other words, he is not worth saving..Well, they got around the no DNR by not calling 911 until it was too late to do anything...I shudder to think how much agony he went through before he passed away.

As a Catholic Christian I am supposed to forgive and I try to..but it is very hard to do so..



God bless you!
Judethz
Israel is Eternal

User ID: 20521597
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03/04/2013 02:15 PM

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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
it's my understanding that this particular place is an independent living facility not a skilled nursing facility.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6595530


9teen Yeah well administrating CPR ain't exactly brain surgery.
Matt C

User ID: 12216826
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03/04/2013 02:33 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
Some people (myself included) are DNR requestors. Meaning if they have cardiac failure they are requesting "do not resuscitate." If you perform CPR in these instances, as a samaritan or otherwise, you can be charged with assault.

Also, if you are not properly trained to perform CPR or have continued practice it is unwise to think that you will be able to perform effective resuscitations.

Both of these circumstances are not covered in the case you have provided. However, the woman on the phone seemed like a real piece of shit so I'm not trying to protect her just provide facts.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6218052
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03/04/2013 02:37 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
This is nowhere near the level of sensationalism the article's title implies. She was 87 years old and likely very near death already.

Resuscitating people of that age usually does more harm than good. She might live for a few more days; but, she also might be brain dead or in immense pain from being revived. I don't blame the nurse at all.
Eazy D

User ID: 35315493
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03/04/2013 02:40 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
Dang. That's where I live. I drive by there every day. Sad to see how policy impedes rational choice and refrains people from doing what is right based on silly bureaucratic mindsets.
Eazy D

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03/04/2013 02:43 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
I don't know. Maybe it is best for the elderly to not have received CPR. But just the way I think, I don't see how letting someone sit there, dying, no matter how old or ready to die, is okay.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 02:46 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
she was in an independent living facility means she can still drive if she wants to. she probably still had an active life. otherwise she would of been transferred to a nursing home. to be bed ridden for the rest of her days just because shes 87 does not mean she has a poor quality of life
semperfi
User ID: 26802368
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03/04/2013 02:50 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
What's with all this fuss she was 87 for gods sake she might have had a DNR and why would anyone want to come to this fucked world we live in
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 20589235
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03/04/2013 02:53 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
Also to consider: The Legal Aspect.

I've been told that if you attempt to do CPR on a person and they die anyway, YOU can be SUED because you FAILED to perform CPR properly (or one of many other trumped up charges).

..And if you DO decide to risk litigation, you must continue doing CPR until EMTs arrive and take over.

If they had a DNR and you do CPR, you get sued.

If they didn't have DNR and you do CPR, and they die, you get sued.

No longer can anyone be a "Good Samaritan" without risk of being sued for not being "Good ENOUGH Samaritan".

Blech.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1492996



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This
XSlyOneX

User ID: 1446631
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03/04/2013 02:58 PM

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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
I think a lot of people are missing a critical point - regardless of the 'type' of facility this is, it has a clear policy that nurses employed by the facility CANNOT give CPR to patients/residents and in the event emergency medical care is needed they must call 911 and remain with the patient but CANNOT give CPR.

This is a policy that, I am certain, is explained in detail to family members prior to residents moving in.

The daughter of the woman was interviewed following the incident, and she indicated that she had no problem with the way the facility/nurse handled the situation.

So, regardless of a DNR, the nurse did her job - as advertised.

Not EVERYONE desires a life prolonged by artificial means - some people respect the fact that we all die eventually and want a little bit of dignity when the time comes. The woman was in her 80's if I recall - CPR would have broken ribs, the length of time she was deprived of oxygen could have resulted in brain damage and she may have spent the remaining months of her life in pain, in bed and possibly a vegetable. This matter, this end of life care and decision making, was NOT the business of the dumb dispatcher who believed she knew better than the care facility and the woman's family.
 Quoting: Em18966



CPR is hardly artificial... Oh the use of the English language by people these days...
Ron Paul or Bust
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35291633
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03/04/2013 03:05 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
There's two schools of thought on this issue:

The news report is that this facility was not prepared for critically ill people, so they "did not know how" to perform CPR.

The second issue to consider is did this woman have a living will declaring "DNR?"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25676821


This was not critically ill but an event. Until then she was able to take care. If she had fallen down a step, woul someone not help her up? If I was visiting her and choked on a piece of meat, woul someone have done the heimlick maneuver.

DNR is for acute care facilities. Emergency room, paramedic etc. nobody bothered to find out if DNR on file.

Despite the facility, ANY person who does not assist but has the training can lose their license. And so can the assisted living facility. And by rights they should.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 03:08 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
My wife and I moved in with my grandmother for the final year of her life to help take care of her. She had alzheimers. The family decided to not seek to try to extend her life through respirators or feeding tubes or CPR or anything like that. What would have been the point? She lived a very long and good life and we let her go in her time.
 Quoting: Unixlike


That's a different case entirely.
Your case, next of kin knows the patients intentions.
In this case, nobody even bothered to find out.
They should have tried to keep her alive until they found out, but instead just let her die.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 03:08 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
Just listened to the 911 call. Wow that nurse is so casual, she doesnt even care then she twisted the 911 responders words when talking to a coworker.

The 911 said "get another person anyone..."

The nurse said "the 911 person is yelling at me and she wants another resident to perform cpr"
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 03:09 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
I've worked in a few nursing homes, and for me - what we were told is: You can only do CPR is the person does NOT have a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) order. If they did have an DNR, you aren't supposed to.
 Quoting: amywood71605


And nobody bothered to find out.
If there was a DNR why did she call 911?
BRIEF
Rebel with morals

User ID: 381742
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03/04/2013 03:12 PM

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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
Nobody said it yet so here goes:

Maybe she was just a bitch...
With freedom comes responsibility.

Heterosexual pride!

Briefcut4892
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 03:13 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
She was in a nursing home and had prolly already signed a DNR and the Nurse was prolly respecting her wishing and doing her job. Now if there was no DNR the yea the nurse should be in trouble.
 Quoting: notta


1- she was not in a nursing home. She was living in the assisted living housing on campus but not the nursing home
2- nobody bothered to find out if she signed for a DNR
3- in any case then why did the nurse call 911?
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 03:17 PM
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Re: Why did staff refuse to give woman CPR?
There's two schools of thought on this issue:

The news report is that this facility was not prepared for critically ill people, so they "did not know how" to perform CPR.

The second issue to consider is did this woman have a living will declaring "DNR?"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25676821


ALL CNA's & nurses go thru a CPR course at some point during their schooling.
 Quoting: mopar28m


Truth is ALL workers in nursing homes are required to learn CPR just because you work in a health facility.

I'm a secretary with no patient contact but CPR is required anyway just like in cases like this.