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Religion vs. Jesus

 
Nine's

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03/04/2013 12:48 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
You seem to be wanting to make the point that one can be a Christian without an established form of worship shared by others (a religion). However, this goes contrary to Scriptures... contrary to words Jesus himself, and later other inspired Bible writers, proclaimed.

For example, on the night before he died in prayer to his heavenly father, Jesus made a fervent request pertaining to the importance of unity of his disciples:

John 17:20,21 "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth"

Also, Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 1:10: "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.

Unity in worship is a rare thing indeed amongst today's churches... even those of the supposedly same denomination. Yet, how were Christians supposed to carry on doing God's will if they weren't united?

Matthew 28:19, 20: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

And once new disciples were made, how were Christians supposed to help one another and encourage one another to be faithful and the doing of fine works if there wasn't a united religion (or unity in worship)?

Heb 10:24,25 "And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near."

Therefore, the Bible teaches that those who would follow Jesus in truth would be a united worldwide organization (or religion; ie, form of worship) modeled after that of the first-century Christians. There can only be one true faith. (Ephesians chapter 4)

How would you recognize them?
Matt 7:20 "Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]."... as an organization, they would stand out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23801109


I think I know the religion you're speaking of. It has many good people trying their best to live good lives and follow His Word. Unfortunately, they believe hook line and sinker, the words that the corporation tells them. Almost to the extent of brainwashing.

No war or killing right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in stocks that support the weapons manufacture. Clean lives, right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in Philip Morris cigarette company. Can't serve God and mammon right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in hedge funds. Yes, by their fruits. United Nations is bad, but it's ok to have a membership with them. Though the followers do have some nice qualities, supporting a corporation that sets itself up as a mediator between it's followers and Jesus isn't scriptural.

These things shouldn't have happened and if they do, they should be taken care of "before" people get wise to them. Not the day after.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 12:54 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
It's like this people, the current state of affairs is pretty much a 150mph car wreck. Instead of calling it modern art, and debating which famous artist would have come up with it, call it the car wreck that it is, and start searching for the VIN plate.

Because if you cannot reverse engineer this car, you will be spending eternity walking...
Revo/elation

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03/04/2013 12:57 PM

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Jesus was a rumour spread by the weak.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33809069


So the people who made a decision to die rather than renounce their faith, had full knowledge that they would be used as sport in the coliseum, who endured and continue to endure total opposition were weak?
I don't think you would last that long tiny little Japanese man.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 12:57 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
You are not ONE or even close to anything resembling ONE unless you are secure without your church. It has a place in this process, much the same as boot camp has a place in warfare.

Nowadays, the world is all boot camp, and no actual war. So why invest in soldiers anymore?

I've said it a million times in no uncertian terms, this is a misbirth and abomination among all things that exist. There is very little about this world and the current structure that should be looked to in any way for a template.

Worst. Case. Scenario.
 Quoting: Obsequious Pachyderm


The Bible actually agrees with some of what you post with regards to: "There is very little about this world and the current structure that should be looked to in any way for a template". Man was never meant to rule over man.. and history - and the many forms of failed human government in all its flavors - attest to that.

God's original plan hasn't changed... the earth will be a paradise. No human governments. No injustices. No starvation. No immoral activity of any kind. No national borders. No sickness. No death. All will love and worship the one true God and all will love one another.

Best. Case. Scenario.
morphic oceans
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03/04/2013 01:00 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
Aspire to be as spiritual (of the soul) as Christ, believe in God and follow the ten commandments. Society would be far more healthier.
geminilion

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03/04/2013 01:05 PM
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That first video is right on point for me!
..."The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you choose, what you think, and what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny ... it is the light that guides your way."
Heraclitus
Revo/elation

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03/04/2013 01:07 PM

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Im amazed on a conspiracy forum the biggest conspiracy of all time: the deliberate creation of belief systems and the the gradual generalization under "religion" is so hard for some to grasp.

Religion is a trick. Created like a smoke screen to obscure the path to the one true God. Everyone can't be right. It's called mutual exclusivity.

This was created to plant doubt and to send little brains and imaginations from laptops all over the world into confusion who try to apply their tiny understanding - to God. It was created and perpetuated by the rebellious enemy of God the former high Angel. his right hand man, his chief musician and most beautiful creation to that point.

Also, any argument that says that God is not real based on the world today makes the assumption that this age, this era we live in will always be. Any GLp regular knows this is not how it works. therefore a change is coming, engineered by the one true God. Even he has an end to his patience and the age of grace is about to end.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 01:08 PM
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You are not ONE or even close to anything resembling ONE unless you are secure without your church. It has a place in this process, much the same as boot camp has a place in warfare.

Nowadays, the world is all boot camp, and no actual war. So why invest in soldiers anymore?

I've said it a million times in no uncertian terms, this is a misbirth and abomination among all things that exist. There is very little about this world and the current structure that should be looked to in any way for a template.

Worst. Case. Scenario.
 Quoting: Obsequious Pachyderm


The Bible actually agrees with some of what you post with regards to: "There is very little about this world and the current structure that should be looked to in any way for a template". Man was never meant to rule over man.. and history - and the many forms of failed human government in all its flavors - attest to that.

God's original plan hasn't changed... the earth will be a paradise. No human governments. No injustices. No starvation. No immoral activity of any kind. No national borders. No sickness. No death. All will love and worship the one true God and all will love one another.

Best. Case. Scenario.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23801109


Best Case Scenario bypasses Earth entirely.

That's where my efforts are currently. Unless I find something worth saving.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 01:12 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
I think I know the religion you're speaking of. It has many good people trying their best to live good lives and follow His Word. Unfortunately, they believe hook line and sinker, the words that the corporation tells them. Almost to the extent of brainwashing.

No war or killing right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in stocks that support the weapons manufacture. Clean lives, right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in Philip Morris cigarette company. Can't serve God and mammon right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in hedge funds. Yes, by their fruits. United Nations is bad, but it's ok to have a membership with them. Though the followers do have some nice qualities, supporting a corporation that sets itself up as a mediator between it's followers and Jesus isn't scriptural.

These things shouldn't have happened and if they do, they should be taken care of "before" people get wise to them. Not the day after.
 Quoting: Nine's


Very good points. The one true faith I'm talking about has an established reputation (that even there opposers admit) doesn't get involved in politics - therefore it and all its members are 100% neutral to wars and such. No, even if threatened with imprisonment or even death, members absolutely refuse to "be no part of this world" (as Jesus said his followers would be no part of this world - see John 15:19). And, no, the corporation (necessary legal entity in order to exist in any government) doesn't "invest" in anything other than doing God's will worldwide.

And they especially have nothing to do with the UN... which they long ago foretold (as in decades ago, even before it existed in the form of its predecessor - The League of Nations) would be a key figure in the fulfillment of prophecy.

So, what is God's will that they so relentlessly (think honey badger) do?
Matthew 24:14: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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03/04/2013 01:13 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
I think I know the religion you're speaking of. It has many good people trying their best to live good lives and follow His Word. Unfortunately, they believe hook line and sinker, the words that the corporation tells them. Almost to the extent of brainwashing.

No war or killing right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in stocks that support the weapons manufacture. Clean lives, right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in Philip Morris cigarette company. Can't serve God and mammon right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in hedge funds. Yes, by their fruits. United Nations is bad, but it's ok to have a membership with them. Though the followers do have some nice qualities, supporting a corporation that sets itself up as a mediator between it's followers and Jesus isn't scriptural.

These things shouldn't have happened and if they do, they should be taken care of "before" people get wise to them. Not the day after.
 Quoting: Nine's


Very good points. The one true faith I'm talking about has an established reputation (that even there opposers admit) doesn't get involved in politics - therefore it and all its members are 100% neutral to wars and such. No, even if threatened with imprisonment or even death, members absolutely refuse to "be no part of this world" (as Jesus said his followers would be no part of this world - see John 15:19). And, no, the corporation (necessary legal entity in order to exist in any government) doesn't "invest" in anything other than doing God's will worldwide.

And they especially have nothing to do with the UN... which they long ago foretold (as in decades ago, even before it existed in the form of its predecessor - The League of Nations) would be a key figure in the fulfillment of prophecy.

So, what is God's will that they so relentlessly (think honey badger) do?
Matthew 24:14: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23801109


You a JW?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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03/04/2013 01:24 PM
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JW's are good hearted people, but it is a highly controlled christian cult. Nothing wrong with it if that's what floats your boat.
Nine's

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03/04/2013 01:40 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
I think I know the religion you're speaking of. It has many good people trying their best to live good lives and follow His Word. Unfortunately, they believe hook line and sinker, the words that the corporation tells them. Almost to the extent of brainwashing.

No war or killing right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in stocks that support the weapons manufacture. Clean lives, right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in Philip Morris cigarette company. Can't serve God and mammon right? Then the corporation shouldn't invest in hedge funds. Yes, by their fruits. United Nations is bad, but it's ok to have a membership with them. Though the followers do have some nice qualities, supporting a corporation that sets itself up as a mediator between it's followers and Jesus isn't scriptural.

These things shouldn't have happened and if they do, they should be taken care of "before" people get wise to them. Not the day after.
 Quoting: Nine's


Very good points. The one true faith I'm talking about has an established reputation (that even there opposers admit) doesn't get involved in politics - therefore it and all its members are 100% neutral to wars and such. No, even if threatened with imprisonment or even death, members absolutely refuse to "be no part of this world" (as Jesus said his followers would be no part of this world - see John 15:19). And, no, the corporation (necessary legal entity in order to exist in any government) doesn't "invest" in anything other than doing God's will worldwide.

And they especially have nothing to do with the UN... which they long ago foretold (as in decades ago, even before it existed in the form of its predecessor - The League of Nations) would be a key figure in the fulfillment of prophecy.

So, what is God's will that they so relentlessly (think honey badger) do?
Matthew 24:14: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23801109


Well either you're not JW or you're in denial because those things are/were true. In addition to being the only religious organization on the world hedge funds meetings.

You sure talk like a JW. If you are one, they DO invest. The
Watchtower Corporation was listed in 2001 as being "among the top 40 revenue generating companies in New York City, reporting an annual revenue of $951,000,000.00 US."

All tax free, much to the dismay of Brooklyn's taxpayers:

Hallelujah! Jehovah's Witnesses' land sell-off has Brooklyn dreaming big

Behold: The day of the biggest real estate sale to hit Brooklyn in decades is nearing and a swelling crowd of potential beneficiaries is salivating. At stake are 34 mint-condition properties in Brooklyn Heights and Dumbo that the Jehovah's Witnesses spent decades accumulating and now are considering selling as they ponder a headquarters move upstate. All told, the portfolio spans 3.2 million square feet—more than the entire Empire State Building—and is worth well over $1 billion.

“There is great potential here to transform the surrounding neighborhoods,” said Marty Markowitz, Brooklyn borough president.

Even with the sale likely a few years away, he and others are dreaming big about what could be. For the city, the sales could return the holdings of the largest landlord in Brooklyn Heights and vicinity—the nonprofit Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, the Witnesses' business arm—to the city's tax rolls. The move could net City Hall millions of dollars a year in revenue.
[link to www.crainsnewyork.com]

Even if you're not JW, a corporation is not a "necessary legal entity in order to exist in any government". It's being a part of the government you say you're no part of. It's a choice, not a necessity.

501c3 church corporation is by lawful state definition:

The creator of a corporation is the State.

The State is the sole authority and sovereign head over the corporation.

The corporation is subject to the laws of the State which limits its powers.

The corporation has no constitutionally protected rights.

The corporation is an artificial person.

The corporation submits to a State Charter declaring it is a creature of the State.

The corporation is created for the benefit of the public.

The corporation is a State franchise.

The corporation is a privilege granted by the State.


Matthew 6:24
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 01:48 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
[link to www.vergenetwork.org]

I did this all weekend, none of the Churches where I loved would support so I did on my own , I believe Churches are worse that in NT -right now and that is sadverysad


I never thought Church Family could be so hurtful but guess whatabduct
 Quoting: Goofy for God


I was raised in a wonderful baptist church where we helped the community in need as well as helping each other grow in Christ.
Once I stepped outside of that I was in shock.

The first church I went to cared about the older members and refused to start to let the church be lead by the younger newer members. They were basically saying that if you didn't like the old hymns and the way they ran the church you could get out. To me that screams ego and self fulfillment.
It was a real shame to, I could see/feel the spirit working there in miracles and love.

The second church I tried was a small church but it was packed every week. The trouble with that was after a while I noticed that for 20 minutes of every service they preached on tithing, not just the 10% you owed to god, but how you needed to go over and above that for the new building fund so they could buy this old warehouse and make it into the new church.
I feel like the spirit should guide you on how to give to his ministry, not 20 minutes from a man trying to guilt me on how to "help" others. I believed that god could make a way for a bigger church if/when the time ever came, no need to work so hard for that when that isn't the mission Jesus left us with.

Still, I kept looking, moving from one then to another. Most of them, I realized, were run by a core group who: #1 Had been there for ages, and felt they had a right no one else did. #2 Contributed the most money and therefore felt they were most invested in the church and their opinion most mattered.

Those reasons aren't even the most betraying I had for walking away. I saw things that made my jaw drop, and most of them had to do with in-laws who were supposed to be preachers.
I'm sorry if I got off topic.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 01:52 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
Can't watch youtube at work.

But since when is Jesus above God?
...If he is the son of God?
 Quoting: thisguyistheguy


Jesus is part of God, God has 3 parts. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


That's not what the Russian say.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 01:53 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
In Search of the Historical Jesus

October 9, 1998 By davidjones
BY RICHARD HEINBERG

As you want people to treat you, do the same to them. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even tax collectors love those who love them, do they not? And if you embrace only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Doesn’t everybody do that? If you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even wrongdoers lend to their kind because they expect to be repaid. Instead, love your enemies, do good, and lend without expecting anything in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of God.
– The Book of Q

[Jesus’s] ecstatic vision and social program sought to rebuild a society upward from its grass roots but on principles of religious and economic egalitarianism, with free healing brought directly to the peasant homes and free sharing of whatever they had in return. The deliberate conjunction of magic and meal, miracle and table, free compassion and open commensurality, was a challenge launched not just at Judaism’s strictest purity regulations, or even at the Mediterranean’s patriarchal combination of honor and shame, patronage and clientage, but at civilization’s eternal inclination to draw lines, invoke boundaries, establish hierarchies, and maintain discriminations. It did not invite a political revolution but envisaged a social one at the imagination’s most dangerous depths. No importance was given to distinctions of Gentile and Jew, female and male, slave and free, poor and rich. Those distinctions were hardly even attacked in theory; they were simply ignored in practice.
– John Dominick Crossan, The Historical Jesus

In this essay I intend to convey some thoughts about the origins of Christianity and the historical Jesus. But before doing so I should first confess that for me this subject carries no slight emotional charge. I grew up in a Midwestern Protestant household and attended church throughout my youth (though at about age twelve I began to question the religious teachings with which I was being indoctrinated); meanwhile, the rest of my family was beginning a slow drift toward evangelical fundamentalism. For years afterward I was torn between the desire to escape the tight-lipped Puritan ethic and unreasoning faith of my parents, and the need to validate at least a fragment of their beliefs in order to maintain a thread of connection with them and to feel that there was something right about the spiritual context in which I had been raised.

This latter need led me to embrace, for many years, a New Age version of Christianity that regarded Jesus not as the only son of God, but as the spiritual point of focus for our particular planet, a significant member of a cosmic hierarchy of god beings. Increasingly, however, I’ve felt compelled to examine even these liberalised beliefs in the light of reason and experience: before I regard Jesus as the spiritual point of focus for myself and for the world, should I not put forth some effort to learn whatever facts exist concerning his teachings, his life, and how various beliefs about him originated?

At the same time, my ongoing study of the history of civilisation has led me to conclude that in very many cases Christianity has exerted a force in the direction of intolerance, the concentration of power, and the suppression of free thought. This is certainly the case in America today, where the Christian Right is villainising gays, feminists, environmentalists, and “godless humanists,” while working to protect and expand the rights of powerful corporations to undermine traditional cultures and to pillage ecosystems. The fundamentalists plead for “family values” while promoting ideas and institutions that are actively destroying the cultural medium in which healthy communities and families thrive. What is worse, I see my own relations enthusiastically contributing (by way of the evangelical ministries of Pat Robertson and his brethren of the TV pulpit) not only to hatred and atrocities in the world today, but to what will almost surely be a biological catastrophe of unprecedented scope in the century ahead. For me, this painful personal circumstance only intensifies the importance of determining, to whatever extent is possible, the truth of Jesus.

Decoding the Gospels

The search for the historical Jesus has been going on for more than a century now, and anyone who embarks on even a cursory study of the findings of New Testament scholars quickly discovers a glaring disparity: while the scholars have been making important discoveries about the gospels, their sources, and the history of first-century Palestine, the average church-going layman knows virtually nothing at all about these findings. It is easy enough to find parties to blame for this situation – the clergy, for wishing to spare their parishioners the possibility of confusion or loss of faith; the flock themselves, for preferring comfortable beliefs over unfamiliar new information; and the scholars themselves, for maintaining an aloof position that says to the layman, “You have no right to an opinion about the historical Jesus because you have not acquired the necessary intellectual tools; only specialists are entitled to pass judgment in this matter.” And so we have two groups growing ever further apart as time goes on: on one hand, millions of faithful Christians for whom evidence is irrelevant and faith is everything, of whom many regard every word of the Bible as historically accurate; and on the other, a small coterie of academics, and their readers, who are intent on following the evidence wherever it leads regardless of its agreement or disagreement with received teachings.

The scholars (who include historians, archaeologists, anthropologists, linguists, and literary experts) have approached the New Testament the same way they would any other piece of ancient writing, directing their efforts simultaneously along two lines: first, the literary analysis of the gospels and of related texts, including the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi scrolls (What do they have in common? In what ways are they different? When were they written and by whom? What sources did the authors draw upon?); and second, historical studies of events and characters and anthropological research into their cultural context (What religious ideas, philosophies, and myths were current in the Near East during the first century? What was the political and social situation in Palestine? What were the cultural backgrounds of the people mentioned in the narratives?).

Today most textual analysts agree that the earliest stratum in the Jesus literature is comprised of the genuine sayings of the master. The Jesus Seminar – an ongoing collaboration of eminent New Testament scholars seeking to determine the most probably authentic teachings of Jesus – has helped somewhat to clarify the conclusion that most independent investigators had already reached: that the authors of the canonical gospels (which were written several decades after the events they describe, and almost certainly not by the individuals to whom they are attributed) each drew upon a lost so-called sayings gospel. Known by the scholars as “Q” (for Quelle, German for “source”), this text was recently reconstructed and published by Burton Mack of Claremont College in his popular book The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q and Christian Origins. Scholars may still dispute the authenticity of individual sayings, but the gist of Jesus’s original message, which we will explore below, seems clear enough.

The narrative biography of Jesus contained in the gospels is another matter, however. Clearly, some elements were derived from mythical sources. We know, for instance, that Mithras (a Syrian hero-god whose cult was popular throughout the Roman Empire during the first century) was believed to have been born in the company of shepherds and to have shared a last supper with his followers, later commemorated by them in a communion of bread and wine. Mithraism also taught the immortality of the soul and a future judgment and resurrection of the dead. The idea of a god who dies in order to save, redeem, or give life to the world had antecedents not only in the mythic biography of Mithras, but those of Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and Tammuz as well. Even the ascension story easily fits a mythic type well known during this period: all admired Roman emperors were said to have ascended to heaven after their deaths; as Morton Smith (author ofThe Secret Gospel and Jesus the Magician) tells us, “By the early second century there was a regular ritual to assure the ascension. Augustus’s ascension was attested to the senate by the sworn witness of a Roman Praetorian.”

But there is disagreement over just how much of the biography is history and how much is myth. Burton Mack argues that we must assume that everything but the sayings is myth; he writes: “The first followers of Jesus did not know about or imagine any of the dramatic events upon which the narrative gospels hinge. These include the baptism of Jesus; his conflict with the Jewish authorities and their plot to kill him; Jesus’ instruction to the disciples; Jesus’ transfiguration, march to Jerusalem, last supper, trial, and crucifixion as king of the Jews; and finally, his resurrection from the dead and the stories of an empty tomb. All of these events must and can be accounted for as mythmaking in the [early] Jesus movements….” On the other hand, Morton Smith and John Dominick Crossan (author of The Historical Jesus and Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography) accept at least some of the narrative material as factual; Smith contends, for instance, that the miracle stories resemble reports of the works of itinerant magicians known to have flourished throughout the Near East during the time in question, and proposes that Jesus was merely an example of the type.

Who Was Jesus?

Which brings us to the question, Who was the utterer of these sayings on which so great a religion was built?

One of the most radical interpreters of the evidence, G.A. Wells of the University of London, argues that Jesus did not exist as a historical person, but was invented by a group of first-century proto-Christians who merely expanded upon certain passages in 2 Isaiah and the Wisdom of Solomon describing a supernatural entity sent by God into the world as a man. However, most scholars dispute this interpretation, concluding instead that the number and character of early references to Jesus establish his historicity beyond doubt. And most agree that the evidence portrays him as a remarkable, charismatic individual.

But to grasp, to any significant degree, how Jesus’s cont-emporaries viewed him, we must first try to understand the context of the place and times in which he lived. During the first few decades of the first century, Palestine was a centre of religious and political ferment. The Hellenistic culture that had come to dominate the eastern Mediterranean region during the previous three hundred years had also profoundly affected Jewish society, and foreign myths, cults, and philosophies were current in the land. Politically, Palestine was under Roman domination, and the Jews were a repressed and exploited people whose aspirations for independence would erupt in the war of 66-73 c.e.

Anthropologists and historians agree that revelatory world-views tend predictably to spring from situations of intense social conflict and crisis. Such revelations take forms appropriate to the unique circumstances of time and place. In the case in point, according to Mack, “One important phenomenon of the Greco-Roman age was the appearance of the religious and philosophical entrepreneur, sometimes called the divine man, sometimes the sophist or sage. The entrepreneur stepped into the void left vacant by the demise of traditional priestly functions at the ancient temple sites and addressed the confusion, concern, and curiosity of people confronted with a complex world that was felt to be at the mercy of the fates.” In addition to freelance visionaries and prophets, the eastern Mediterranean during the first century was also home to magicians, protesters, bandits, messiahs, and revolution-aries. Jesus seems to have fit well into this milieu.

Continue to read:
[link to www.newdawnmagazine.com]

hf
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
Jesus was a rumour spread by the weak.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33809069


So the people who made a decision to die rather than renounce their faith, had full knowledge that they would be used as sport in the coliseum, who endured and continue to endure total opposition were weak?
I don't think you would last that long tiny little Japanese man.
 Quoting: Revo/elation


The same courage that convinced many a Roman to become Christian in the first place.
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Jesus was a rumour spread by the weak.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33809069


So the people who made a decision to die rather than renounce their faith, had full knowledge that they would be used as sport in the coliseum, who endured and continue to endure total opposition were weak?
I don't think you would last that long tiny little Japanese man.
 Quoting: Revo/elation


If I was convinced that such a choice would guarantee me eternal paradise then whatever happens to me here is irrelevant.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather teach my kids that morality is doing something for someone who can't return the favor than to believe in a system of making decisions based on what personal rewards (and consequences) it reaps.
Anonymous Coward
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Aruba
03/04/2013 02:00 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
never ending religious debate putin
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 02:01 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
Jesus was a rumour spread by the weak.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33809069


So the people who made a decision to die rather than renounce their faith, had full knowledge that they would be used as sport in the coliseum, who endured and continue to endure total opposition were weak?
I don't think you would last that long tiny little Japanese man.
 Quoting: Revo/elation


If I was convinced that such a choice would guarantee me eternal paradise then whatever happens to me here is irrelevant.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather teach my kids that morality is doing something for someone who can't return the favor than to believe in a system of making decisions based on what personal rewards (and consequences) it reaps.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


So for example, you would rather help a homeless guy with a few bucks since it means you are most assuredly giving money and only recieving gratitude (perhaps), than give your taxes to the State, to help the same guy before he becomes homeless and becomes "inferior" to you?

Not picking on you here, I'm spitballing everyone today.
Kurdish Shepherd
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Finland
03/04/2013 02:08 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
Can't watch youtube at work.

But since when is Jesus above God?
...If he is the son of God?
 Quoting: thisguyistheguy


Jesus is part of God, God has 3 parts. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


It's quite interesting that you appear to be against "religion" but then still believe and support the Dogma of Personified God, (which is religious invention) Instead of reading Bible with open-minded attitude, and allowing the chips fall where they may, for what ever reason most of you Christians try to mold what the Scripture says to fit nicely into the Dogma of Christendom.

I thought you might want to check this site out, cheers.

"Jesus Christ revealed clearer than anyone else had ever done that "I" is God. "I" is the bread of life. "I" is the resurrection. "I" is life eternal. "I am come that you might have life and have it more abundantly." "I will never leave or forsake thee." However in just a few short years the veil had been brought back by Christendom, so now it is not "I" am the way, but Jesus is the way. God had again been personalized. The truth is not that Jesus was God, but "I" am. I want you to see beloved that once we personalize God we have put the veil back on and the truth can no longer break through. A true understanding of God will make you free and remove every limitation anyone may try to put on your life.

The truth is not simply that Jesus is the way, but "I" am the way the truth and the life. "I" in the midst of you is mighty. Listen, be still and know the "I" IS God, this is the "I" in the midst of you who has never left you, even if you walk through the valley of the shadow of death "I" will be with you so fear not. When you perceive the nature of God is the impersonal "I," the omnipotent, the omniscient, and the omnipresent one, the veil will drop from your eyes and you will see God face to face. No longer will we pray asking God to do this or heal that, for he is the "I" that "I" am."

[link to sigler.org]
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 02:23 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
Jesus was a rumour spread by the weak.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33809069


So the people who made a decision to die rather than renounce their faith, had full knowledge that they would be used as sport in the coliseum, who endured and continue to endure total opposition were weak?
I don't think you would last that long tiny little Japanese man.
 Quoting: Revo/elation


If I was convinced that such a choice would guarantee me eternal paradise then whatever happens to me here is irrelevant.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather teach my kids that morality is doing something for someone who can't return the favor than to believe in a system of making decisions based on what personal rewards (and consequences) it reaps.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


So for example, you would rather help a homeless guy with a few bucks since it means you are most assuredly giving money and only recieving gratitude (perhaps), than give your taxes to the State, to help the same guy before he becomes homeless and becomes "inferior" to you?

Not picking on you here, I'm spitballing everyone today.
 Quoting: Obsequious Pachyderm


It's cool. I'm always up for open discussion. Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm following what you're saying completely to be honest. Perhaps I can rephrase my previous thought...

In regards to being courageous for welcoming certain (and possibly painful) death in defense of one's faith, how much courage does it take when the person truly believes they are being rewarded in a way that makes any tribulation in this life worth it? I mean, the comparison of a finite lifetime to an infinitely long afterlife is like asking if you would pay 1 cent for a billion dollar winning lottery ticket. There is no risk involved.

On the other hand, I think courage (and in the same light, morality) can be better defined as doing the right thing when you have no guarantee that it will be worth it. The good deed is the reward in itself. It's that warm-and-fuzzy sense of accomplishment that comes from helping someone who you have nothing to gain from.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 5849985
United States
03/04/2013 02:28 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
...


So the people who made a decision to die rather than renounce their faith, had full knowledge that they would be used as sport in the coliseum, who endured and continue to endure total opposition were weak?
I don't think you would last that long tiny little Japanese man.
 Quoting: Revo/elation


If I was convinced that such a choice would guarantee me eternal paradise then whatever happens to me here is irrelevant.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather teach my kids that morality is doing something for someone who can't return the favor than to believe in a system of making decisions based on what personal rewards (and consequences) it reaps.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


So for example, you would rather help a homeless guy with a few bucks since it means you are most assuredly giving money and only recieving gratitude (perhaps), than give your taxes to the State, to help the same guy before he becomes homeless and becomes "inferior" to you?

Not picking on you here, I'm spitballing everyone today.
 Quoting: Obsequious Pachyderm


It's cool. I'm always up for open discussion. Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm following what you're saying completely to be honest. Perhaps I can rephrase my previous thought...

In regards to being courageous for welcoming certain (and possibly painful) death in defense of one's faith, how much courage does it take when the person truly believes they are being rewarded in a way that makes any tribulation in this life worth it? I mean, the comparison of a finite lifetime to an infinitely long afterlife is like asking if you would pay 1 cent for a billion dollar winning lottery ticket. There is no risk involved.

On the other hand, I think courage (and in the same light, morality) can be better defined as doing the right thing when you have no guarantee that it will be worth it. The good deed is the reward in itself. It's that warm-and-fuzzy sense of accomplishment that comes from helping someone who you have nothing to gain from.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


You speak with the "knowledge" of a transcendant faith but with the motivation of an endorphin junkie. Gaining a feeling is a major contributor to EVERY racket today. Much the less professions like a cop or firefighter, the default entry level endorphin junkie.

(Hell, some fat bus monitor got more money in donations than I will ever earn just for being called names by SCHOOL KIDS.)

Unfortunately this means that you are double minded, fortunately, I will feel better about myself now that I have told you that putting down a shovel is the first step to climbing out of a hole. In other words, your attention span is likely a day to day thing, like most peoples.

Don't even try to crush my high by thanking me.
Mrgravyard

User ID: 33808446
United States
03/04/2013 02:29 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
Oh I Love the title..
Religion is==========Man Made!!!!
Jesus is God's Son.
We go to Heaven ONLY if we Believe in our Hearts that we are sinners and no matter how much Good we do we CANT earn our way to Heaven.. ONLY By BELIEVING Jesus Paid the price of our sins on the CROSS!!!!!!!!!!!
a Simple but GREAT Gift from God===Jesus.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34253287
United States
03/04/2013 02:48 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
You seem to be wanting to make the point that one can be a Christian without an established form of worship shared by others (a religion). However, this goes contrary to Scriptures... contrary to words Jesus himself, and later other inspired Bible writers, proclaimed.

For example, on the night before he died in prayer to his heavenly father, Jesus made a fervent request pertaining to the importance of unity of his disciples:

John 17:20,21 "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth"

Also, Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 1:10: "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.

Unity in worship is a rare thing indeed amongst today's churches... even those of the supposedly same denomination. Yet, how were Christians supposed to carry on doing God's will if they weren't united?

Matthew 28:19, 20: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

And once new disciples were made, how were Christians supposed to help one another and encourage one another to be faithful and the doing of fine works if there wasn't a united religion (or unity in worship)?

Heb 10:24,25 "And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near."

Therefore, the Bible teaches that those who would follow Jesus in truth would be a united worldwide organization (or religion; ie, form of worship) modeled after that of the first-century Christians. There can only be one true faith. (Ephesians chapter 4)

How would you recognize them?
Matt 7:20 "Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]."... as an organization, they would stand out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23801109


Thank you Brother or Sister...

Acts 20:24 Nevertheless, I do not make my soul of any account as dear to me, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received of the Lord Jesus, to bear thorough witness to the good news of the undeserved kindness of God.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35566116
Brazil
03/04/2013 03:00 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
Lisa Lisa is awesome.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
03/04/2013 03:09 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
...


If I was convinced that such a choice would guarantee me eternal paradise then whatever happens to me here is irrelevant.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather teach my kids that morality is doing something for someone who can't return the favor than to believe in a system of making decisions based on what personal rewards (and consequences) it reaps.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


So for example, you would rather help a homeless guy with a few bucks since it means you are most assuredly giving money and only recieving gratitude (perhaps), than give your taxes to the State, to help the same guy before he becomes homeless and becomes "inferior" to you?

Not picking on you here, I'm spitballing everyone today.
 Quoting: Obsequious Pachyderm


It's cool. I'm always up for open discussion. Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm following what you're saying completely to be honest. Perhaps I can rephrase my previous thought...

In regards to being courageous for welcoming certain (and possibly painful) death in defense of one's faith, how much courage does it take when the person truly believes they are being rewarded in a way that makes any tribulation in this life worth it? I mean, the comparison of a finite lifetime to an infinitely long afterlife is like asking if you would pay 1 cent for a billion dollar winning lottery ticket. There is no risk involved.

On the other hand, I think courage (and in the same light, morality) can be better defined as doing the right thing when you have no guarantee that it will be worth it. The good deed is the reward in itself. It's that warm-and-fuzzy sense of accomplishment that comes from helping someone who you have nothing to gain from.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


You speak with the "knowledge" of a transcendant faith but with the motivation of an endorphin junkie. Gaining a feeling is a major contributor to EVERY racket today. Much the less professions like a cop or firefighter, the default entry level endorphin junkie.

(Hell, some fat bus monitor got more money in donations than I will ever earn just for being called names by SCHOOL KIDS.)

Unfortunately this means that you are double minded, fortunately, I will feel better about myself now that I have told you that putting down a shovel is the first step to climbing out of a hole. In other words, your attention span is likely a day to day thing, like most peoples.

Don't even try to crush my high by thanking me.
 Quoting: Obsequious Pachyderm


It's very limiting to generalize. We are all double minded. There is no flow with an ebb.
Anonymous Coward
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03/04/2013 03:09 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
*without
'LIL ANGEL
Faithful Seeker

User ID: 1053878
United States
03/04/2013 03:18 PM

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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
Lisa Lisa is awesome.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35566116


Yes, you are so right! :)
I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me. -Jesus Christ
Stay small(in ego), stay teachable(in life), stay in the basics(keep it simple) and pay attention(to guidance). -me
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does. (Anonymous)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 5721079
United States
03/04/2013 03:24 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
...


So for example, you would rather help a homeless guy with a few bucks since it means you are most assuredly giving money and only recieving gratitude (perhaps), than give your taxes to the State, to help the same guy before he becomes homeless and becomes "inferior" to you?

Not picking on you here, I'm spitballing everyone today.
 Quoting: Obsequious Pachyderm


It's cool. I'm always up for open discussion. Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm following what you're saying completely to be honest. Perhaps I can rephrase my previous thought...

In regards to being courageous for welcoming certain (and possibly painful) death in defense of one's faith, how much courage does it take when the person truly believes they are being rewarded in a way that makes any tribulation in this life worth it? I mean, the comparison of a finite lifetime to an infinitely long afterlife is like asking if you would pay 1 cent for a billion dollar winning lottery ticket. There is no risk involved.

On the other hand, I think courage (and in the same light, morality) can be better defined as doing the right thing when you have no guarantee that it will be worth it. The good deed is the reward in itself. It's that warm-and-fuzzy sense of accomplishment that comes from helping someone who you have nothing to gain from.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


You speak with the "knowledge" of a transcendant faith but with the motivation of an endorphin junkie. Gaining a feeling is a major contributor to EVERY racket today. Much the less professions like a cop or firefighter, the default entry level endorphin junkie.

(Hell, some fat bus monitor got more money in donations than I will ever earn just for being called names by SCHOOL KIDS.)

Unfortunately this means that you are double minded, fortunately, I will feel better about myself now that I have told you that putting down a shovel is the first step to climbing out of a hole. In other words, your attention span is likely a day to day thing, like most peoples.

Don't even try to crush my high by thanking me.
 Quoting: Obsequious Pachyderm


It's very limiting to generalize. We are all double minded. There is no flow with an ebb.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27317240


Ya lunatic, don't fall into the whirlpool.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
03/04/2013 03:31 PM
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Re: Religion vs. Jesus
I believe in intelligent design of genetic manipulation of evolved primates. Jesus may have been a son of ENKI. ENKI loved humans just as Jesus did.

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