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Predator of Consciousness

 
4Q529

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03/30/2013 10:28 AM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
i guess you are aware that you have a very abstract take upon things. although you seem to explicitly seemto deny this, by saying that your distinction it's not a theory (and i agree to what you said in this respect), nevertheless what you transmit are mainly abstract meanings.

if you would give basic examples in which those 3 states could be unmistakenly observed, likewise one could show to a kid water,ice and stem, then it would all be clear.

but reading through your posts i could not clearly find the difference between 'the thinker' and 'the self' as two distinct states of counsciousness.

without all these abstract terms,maybe it would be easier if you wouldpoint to particular experiences and feelings that exemplify those states
 Quoting: andreidita


Fair enough.

Can you observe that the "self" is a curved 'spatiality' of consciousness? In other words, my "self" is over here and your "self" is over there? Can you see that? Can you see that the separation between these two "selves" is a consequence of the 'movement' of self-reflection by your nervous system and my nervous system which localizes my sensations and perceptions to one particular body, which is mine, rather than another; that is, yours?

This body has had experiences over time; sensations and perceptions; memories of those sensation and perceptions; relationships with people; performed certain behaviors rather than others. All of that is consciousness of the "self".

Its mechanisms are the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain at the neurological level as well as the psychological level; that is, in relation to its creation of images of itself and other images of relationships and understandings of reality.

But, if you observe the consciousness of the "self" carefully, you will see that it is tenaciously attached to images; and those images change quite rapidly. They have no inherent continuity. But, if those images collapse completely, the "self" will collapse into psychosis.

So in comes the consciousness of the 'thinker' to maintain the existence of the 'spatiality' of consciousness called the "self". And that consciousness has its own requirements, demands and characteristics of interaction.

Can the consciousness of the "self" absolutely be sharply differentiated at all times from the consciousness of the 'thinker'? Not really. Their interaction is more along the lines of a Lorenz "butterfly" strange attractor; that is, people usually oscillate very rapidly from one to the other in a seamless movement.

What is the language of the "self"? Emotions, poetry and the lyrics of songs; sensations and perception of the space-time reality; the evidence for the basis of scientific theory.

What is the language of the 'thinker'? Logic, scientific method, time going only in a forward direction etc.

This is a place to start.

But one must actually stand back and observe how these things operate to get the real story.

You are continually moving from one of these dimensions of consciousness to another in relation to events, emotions, and thoughts conveyed by others.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


to put what you say in the frame of reference of dream consciousness, it would be like:

'the self' - regular consciousness when one is continuously swept away by ever changing situations
'the thinker' - those moments inside regular dreams when one becomes conscious of the absurdity of some details in the flow of the dream, which do not fit a logical structure, and struggles to impose a logical structure on the seemingly non-sensical and continuously changing dream landscape
'the observer' - would be somehow akin to the consciousness which is available in lucid dreaming, when one knows that one is dreaming.

also it is interesting that as one grounds more and more in the 'observer' state in waking states it becomes more and more obvious that most people live their waking life exactly as in a dream - struggling most of the time between 'the self' and 'the thinker' states with very short and rare moments of awakening to the 'observer' state
 Quoting: andreidita


Certainly interesting.

But why would you want to put it into the context of dream consciousness"?

But your second paragraph is precisely what I am talking about; the world of "maya", "samsara" or "illusion" is most of our waking consciousness...

Precisely the consciousness that results in conflict and violence.

Michael
andreidita

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03/30/2013 11:39 AM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
Certainly interesting.

But why would you want to put it into the context of dream consciousness"?

But your second paragraph is precisely what I am talking about; the world of "maya", "samsara" or "illusion" is most of our waking consciousness...

Precisely the consciousness that results in conflict and violence.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


first of all because dreaming makes for half of our subjective experience :)

and second because it puts things in perspective.

in waking state the maya is much more dense, because 'the thinker' invested so much energy in making a flawless structured reality according to its logical rules, that even the perception of 'the self' is very hard to achieve.

in dream time, the order is somehow reversed, 'the self' being the rule and 'the thinker' the exception, so that using both waking and dreaming states one could get a better grip upon these things.
Focused_Intent (OP)

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03/30/2013 11:45 AM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
I don't know why there are so many disputes over what consciousness is. Consciousness is pure awareness. There is an infinite amount of levels of potential awareness that can be experienced by consciousness.

Ultimately there is no self - consciousness has no identity.

Ultimately there is no thinker - thinking and feeling is part of the experience our consciousness is currently having.
andreidita

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Re: Predator of Consciousness
I don't know why there are so many disputes over what consciousness is. Consciousness is pure awareness. There is an infinite amount of levels of potential awareness that can be experienced by consciousness.

Ultimately there is no self - consciousness has no identity.

Ultimately there is no thinker - thinking and feeling is part of the experience our consciousness is currently having.
 Quoting: Focused_Intent


ultimately yes, but in practice i like how don juan explained to carlos that he knows 9 (or 7 i don't remember well) ways of perceiving the world, and that reason is just one of them.

and when carlos asked don juan how does he know there are only 9, don juan laughed and said that he does not know that, but that until then he knows only those.
Anonymous Coward
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03/30/2013 12:10 PM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
Hello everyone, Im really stuggling to comprehend all this..

I asked a couple of questions on last page that I think would help tremendously because in learning how things would be without this predators influence, we might be able to better understand them.

maybe no one can answer them but if so then stating such would help a little bit also. or if I am asking the wrong way or something else, if anyone can offer some critisizm I am open to that as well as I consider it constructive. so please..






what would it be like if there was no predator?

how would we be different individualy and as society?


thanks
Focused_Intent (OP)

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03/30/2013 12:41 PM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
ultimately yes, but in practice i like how don juan explained to carlos that he knows 9 (or 7 i don't remember well) ways of perceiving the world, and that reason is just one of them.

and when carlos asked don juan how does he know there are only 9, don juan laughed and said that he does not know that, but that until then he knows only those.
 Quoting:
Yes I remember there were 48 bands of emanations on earth 7 that produced awareness if I recall.

Hello everyone, Im really stuggling to comprehend all this..

I asked a couple of questions on last page that I think would help tremendously because in learning how things would be without this predators influence, we might be able to better understand them.

maybe no one can answer them but if so then stating such would help a little bit also. or if I am asking the wrong way or something else, if anyone can offer some critisizm I am open to that as well as I consider it constructive. so please..






what would it be like if there was no predator?

how would we be different individualy and as society?


thanks
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29203778


To me the question doesn't make sense. It is like asking prisoners what the prison would be like if there were no guards. There would be no prison. People would live in harmony with nature.

Last Edited by Focused_Intent on 03/30/2013 12:50 PM
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
here is my discussion. my head is empty of thoughts. i feel a calm neutral warm flame below my rib cage. i can't hold onto the past image or thoughts. i'm not negative at all. etc.etc.

the "force/archons/flyers/matrix" targets those around me to influence me but also attacks my ability to get work, money, rideshares, housing

great post!

here is mine:
Thread: everything about this world is bullshit LIES
Anonymous Coward
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03/30/2013 01:16 PM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
In this low vibration reality dominated by 'past/future' mind maintaining the higher vibration 'present mind' (via meditation) is the energetic equivalent of shouting "TARGET ME SOCIETY!"

Call them what you will... gang stalkers, matrix agents, jinn possessed... if the sharks can't coax you into the ocean they'll isolate you on the shore and drop sand bombs until you find a way off the beach.
Anonymous Coward
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03/30/2013 04:08 PM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
50/50 good/bad info here but the good info is _VERY_ Good.

[link to veilofreality.com]
4Q529

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03/30/2013 04:20 PM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
Certainly interesting.

But why would you want to put it into the context of dream consciousness"?

But your second paragraph is precisely what I am talking about; the world of "maya", "samsara" or "illusion" is most of our waking consciousness...

Precisely the consciousness that results in conflict and violence.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


first of all because dreaming makes for half of our subjective experience :)

and second because it puts things in perspective.

in waking state the maya is much more dense, because 'the thinker' invested so much energy in making a flawless structured reality according to its logical rules, that even the perception of 'the self' is very hard to achieve.

in dream time, the order is somehow reversed, 'the self' being the rule and 'the thinker' the exception, so that using both waking and dreaming states one could get a better grip upon these things.
 Quoting: andreidita


Certainly instructive.

And precisely correct, as I see it.

Thanks.

(Seldom dream any more. Used to, more than 35 years ago.)

Sort of like the consciousness of the 'thinker' fills in the gaps in the consciousness of the "self".

Sure.

That is what I mean by temporal continuity.

But the "observing consciousness" is still the best frame of reference; the consciousness that "walks on the water" of the unconscious, or dreams, or images of the "self".

Michael
4Q529

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Re: Predator of Consciousness
I don't know why there are so many disputes over what consciousness is. Consciousness is pure awareness. There is an infinite amount of levels of potential awareness that can be experienced by consciousness.

Ultimately there is no self - consciousness has no identity.

Ultimately there is no thinker - thinking and feeling is part of the experience our consciousness is currently having.
 Quoting: Focused_Intent


The term "pure awareness" MAKES NO SENSE.

Any awareness has a point of origin.

That point of origin immediately sets up a duality; the duality of a consciousness and what that consciousness is aware of; that is, the "self" is aware of the "not self".

This is simply inescapable.

If you 'think' this is not inescapable, what that means is that you are too enmeshed in the duality--you are still on the moving train--rather than standing in the train station in the "observing consciousness".

Your statement about "infinite amount of levels of potential awareness" is further evidence of the tenaciousness of the attachment to thought. It has no reality other than thought.

In any case, my consciousness has an identity. I am 'over here' and you are 'over there'. My experiences are different than yours; both of my "self" as well as my 'thinker'.

Denial that consciousness has any identity is a metaphysical fantasy-land no better than 'heaven' and 'hell'.

The structures and mechanisms of the consciousnesses of the "self" and the consciousnesses of the 'thinker' are IDENTICAL.

It is the contents that differ in terms of experiences, memories, thoughts, etc.

And those contents of consciousness mean different identities.

Michael
Focused_Intent (OP)

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03/30/2013 05:07 PM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
I don't know why there are so many disputes over what consciousness is. Consciousness is pure awareness. There is an infinite amount of levels of potential awareness that can be experienced by consciousness.

Ultimately there is no self - consciousness has no identity.

Ultimately there is no thinker - thinking and feeling is part of the experience our consciousness is currently having.
 Quoting: Focused_Intent


The term "pure awareness" MAKES NO SENSE.

Any awareness has a point of origin.

That point of origin immediately sets up a duality; the duality of a consciousness and what that consciousness is aware of; that is, the "self" is aware of the "not self".

This is simply inescapable.

If you 'think' this is not inescapable, what that means is that you are too enmeshed in the duality--you are still on the moving train--rather than standing in the train station in the "observing consciousness".

Your statement about "infinite amount of levels of potential awareness" is further evidence of the tenaciousness of the attachment to thought. It has no reality other than thought.

In any case, my consciousness has an identity. I am 'over here' and you are 'over there'. My experiences are different than yours; both of my "self" as well as my 'thinker'.

Denial that consciousness has any identity is a metaphysical fantasy-land no better than 'heaven' and 'hell'.

The structures and mechanisms of the consciousnesses of the "self" and the consciousnesses of the 'thinker' are IDENTICAL.

It is the contents that differ in terms of experiences, memories, thoughts, etc.

And those contents of consciousness mean different identities.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


As Bill Hicks stated, "All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves."

When you observe your identity it is part of your experience. Your identity is only as real as the reality you are experiencing.
Anonymous Coward
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03/30/2013 05:47 PM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
here is my discussion. my head is empty of thoughts. i feel a calm neutral warm flame below my rib cage. i can't hold onto the past image or thoughts. i'm not negative at all. etc.etc.

the "force/archons/flyers/matrix" targets those around me to influence me but also attacks my ability to get work, money, rideshares, housing


great post!

here is mine:
Thread: everything about this world is bullshit LIES
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34883306



I came to the same conclusion after many years of practice.
In fact, the more you're aware the more you're attacked. Right along with the elements stirring up and relating to you.. the magical part of it. That is my experience.

So much mental gymnastics here. There's a vid where my teacher sat with Krishnamurti yammering for more than an hour. He replied only one comment after 45 minutes that let us know he was listening the whole time. He said "that's right!" and chuckled and that was all he said.

What's not being discussed is dealing with what arises. All fabulous high-minded stuff unworkable until actual solutions are presented. And they never are.
Otherwise, it's just verbiage.
Anonymous Coward
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03/30/2013 06:46 PM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
All you got to do is listen low key
wow
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03/30/2013 06:56 PM
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
I could so see this being true, period.
ad
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
I just hope I dont start turning around and saying get away from mlolsigne get away from meeeeeeeeeeeeee
4Q529

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Re: Predator of Consciousness
As Bill Hicks stated, "All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves."
 Quoting: Focused_Intent


So, what?

So Bill Hicks said this.

Who is Bill Hicks? (not that I care)

What is the basis of his statement?

And why should anyone look upon him as any 'authority' about consciousness?

Just look at this sentence, first of all.

What is going on here?

The first phrase appears to originate in the consciousness of the 'thinker'. That is, it appears to be a logical conclusion based upon observations of one kind or another. And there is a tenacious attachment to that thought out of both desire and fear.

But the second phrase: "we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively" is not at all a statement of a consciousness of the 'thinker'. It is, on the contrary, a statement of a consciousness of the "self".

Why?

Because it is not merely logically contradictory--in other words it is a poetic rather than logical description of reality (purportedly)--it actually eats itself for breakfast:

"We" is plural; "are" is plural; "one" is singular; "itself" is singular. In other words, the words "one" and "itself" eat the first two words of the phrase; the result being utter gibberish. But it is pleasurable--and, for that reason, not questioned--because it maintains the existence of the "self" while claiming an understanding of the reality of consciousness which it does not possess. That is, the phrase is a manifestation of the "serpent with its tail in its mouth".

This is something that can be observed.

Both the poetic images of the "self" and the logical conclusions of the 'thinker' claim to be the the truth about human consciousness.

But the reality of consciousness can be determined only if it is observed.

Michael
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
really good thread...
This is what Glp should be about

Only problem is Michael is intellectualising everything.
I cannot even read his words because I feel too much ego is attached to what he is saying. He always wants to correct the OP by saying ,"but".

I cannot meditate,and do not meditate, because of disturbing experiences but whenI am working with my hands and creating which is my work, I feel it is a meditation.
I do not sit still, but I am focused with intent ,(pardon the pun), to produce the most beautiful creation, I can.
Obviously,ego is involved because, I want to produce something spectactular.
There is some inner chattering going on which is leading me,
but generally it is about the work I am doing.
Yes, I am aware of the predator and that is when emotions are heightened..anger,jealously,wanting more,envy everything that one knows is going to lead me to space that is negative for me.It results in behaviour that is also negative.
Dolorus Cannon also states that we as humans were very pure,being tended in the garden,until the weeds came and invaded our space..same anology as the predator.
I also found that when we are with animals ,an inner peace overcomes us,as if we go into their space. I loved holding chickens because I would become one with them.
I would like to hear more from the OP and less of
concepts that we have all read in books.
I personally do not follow any guru,religion,etc because if you have read Steiners book on 2012 you will understand how the predators work..they horn onto fear and even the gurus etc are part of the predator's team!
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Predator of Consciousness
As Bill Hicks stated, "All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves."
 Quoting: Focused_Intent


So, what?

So Bill Hicks said this.

Who is Bill Hicks? (not that I care)

What is the basis of his statement?

And why should anyone look upon him as any 'authority' about consciousness?

Just look at this sentence, first of all.

What is going on here?

The first phrase appears to originate in the consciousness of the 'thinker'. That is, it appears to be a logical conclusion based upon observations of one kind or another. And there is a tenacious attachment to that thought out of both desire and fear.

But the second phrase: "we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively" is not at all a statement of a consciousness of the 'thinker'. It is, on the contrary, a statement of a consciousness of the "self".

Why?

Because it is not merely logically contradictory--in other words it is a poetic rather than logical description of reality (purportedly)--it actually eats itself for breakfast:

"We" is plural; "are" is plural; "one" is singular; "itself" is singular. In other words, the words "one" and "itself" eat the first two words of the phrase; the result being utter gibberish. But it is pleasurable--and, for that reason, not questioned--because it maintains the existence of the "self" while claiming an understanding of the reality of consciousness which it does not possess. That is, the phrase is a manifestation of the "serpent with its tail in its mouth".

This is something that can be observed.

Both the poetic images of the "self" and the logical conclusions of the 'thinker' claim to be the the truth about human consciousness.

But the reality of consciousness can be determined only if it is observed.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


What are you saying?

Can you explain what you are saying to a child?
Trying doing so and try and become a child and see what you are saying?

If you did not have language, how would you explain to someone what you are saying above?

You do not provide any real life examples in your posts?
I would not want to spend more than 3 mins in your company because you sound very egoistic. You need to humble yourself.

Please stop hogging this thread with your same repetitions.

Have you read anything about Tao masters and how they
teach their disciples about consciousness and enlightenment?

certainly not the way you are approaching the subject.
4Q529

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really good thread...
This is what Glp should be about

Only problem is Michael is intellectualising everything.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36313572


A classical response of a consciousness of a 'thinker'.

What I write about are observations; they are not the result of the thoughts of a 'thinker'.

Because, apparently, you cannot observe what I am talking about, you characterize it as the thoughts of a 'thinker'.

Being on the moving train, you really have no other option than to deny any forward motion to the falling ball. The only frame of reference that you have any direct experience of is on the moving train.

You conclude that my observations are nothing more than thoughts of the 'thinker'.

The only way you can observe what I am observing is to get off the train.

Michael
4Q529

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What are you saying?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36313572


Apparently, you are unable to observe what I am talking about.

Maybe it would be helpful for you to read Krishnamurti for a few years before you try to understand what I am saying.

Michael
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Sorry,

I will not read his works because there is so much more knowledge and awareness since his times.
It is like saying read the bible....
We as humans have awakened in the last 10 years, more than the last thousands of years.The nano-second of this special time that awakened so many.So many came to get this ride on earth and soon we will go.This special time was not in Khrisnamurti's time.it is now and going soon and will fade away.

At no time was such hunger or knowledge that exists now.
At no time was there a forum where people could share such experiences. Certainly not in Khrisnamurti's time.Remember he would not believe it himself...

The nano-second will finish and all the spirits/souls will go because they have got so much...never did they enviage they would get this much....
mysterynomore

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03/31/2013 01:54 AM

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I see everyone is trying to explain the inner meaning of self and our conscious state.
Words won't get close to understanding the inner meaning...there to limited.

Your all missing the obvious.

The geometries and geometric relationship we all have in creation...this includes the grid lines ...consciousness...planets...stars and every other known tangible and non tangible.

The answer lies there...if you look else were...you'll miss the point of creation and it's relationship with us all.

The great pyramid is a reflection of our own self...our very being.

Search that angle and you will find your answer.

If i'm to put the whole story here...it's going to take me a far while to lay out the whole concept.



All cultures have built the key into there sacred places about the geometries of life.
They weren't put there for nothing...they new the relationship of creation.

There lies your answer.
Anonymous Coward
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I see everyone is trying to explain the inner meaning of self and our conscious state.
Words won't get close to understanding the inner meaning...there to limited.

Your all missing the obvious.

The geometries and geometric relationship we all have in creation...this includes the grid lines ...consciousness...planets...stars and every other known tangible and non tangible.

The answer lies there...if you look else were...you'll miss the point of creation and it's relationship with us all.

The great pyramid is a reflection of our own self...our very being.

Search that angle and you will find your answer.

If i'm to put the whole story here...it's going to take me a far while to lay out the whole concept.



All cultures have built the key into there sacred places about the geometries of life.
They weren't put there for nothing...they new the relationship of creation.

There lies your answer.

have read your threads and gained so much..
yes please can you start and write. I have always looked out for your writings and bought books you recommended.
This recent find was interesting:

[link to wespenre.com]


 Quoting: mysterynomore
4Q529

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If i'm to put the whole story here...it's going to take me a far while to lay out the whole concept.
 Quoting: mysterynomore


Of what use is a "concept"?

There are eleventy gazillion concepts about consciousness.

How is one any different than another?

They all have approximately the same 'value'.

They are all thought.

The function of thought is to preserve the temporal continuity of the "self", which is a dualistic consciousness.

We do not need another concept about consciousness.

What we need is an ability to observe the dualistic consciousness and the precise mechanisms which lead to conflict and violence.

Holding to another concept of consciousness will not, in any way, resolve the problems originating in duality.

This is what Krishnamurti was talking about.

Michael
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i'm being targeted HEAVILY already since i was a young child

key in this discussion is to IGNORE the INTELLECTUAL types that sound mechanical in their words. you can hear arrogance in their words which is a warning you are dealing with the parasite
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Anonymous Coward
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this Michael is infested. EGO is the parasite. intellect is the mind of the parasite.
Anonymous Coward
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Anonymous Coward
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this Michael is infested. EGO is the parasite. intellect is the mind of the parasite.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34883306



Thank you! As said by the OP in the opening passage, the parasite/predator is very clever and we have its mind!I was getting irritable by the intectualisation of the discussion,Probably because I am a feely person with lots of vivid imagination and I love stories and concepts to be able to understand and learn!
Lots of love to you!
4Q529

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intellect is the mind of the parasite.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34883306


Read Krishnamurti.

You need to learn how to differentiate between observation and intellect.

Just because words are used to describe an observation of consciousness does not mean that the 'thinker' is the origin of those words.

Michael
4Q529

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Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom,

this Michael is infested. EGO is the parasite.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34883306


I understand your perspective.

Seriously.

To the person on the moving train, any report of a horizontal component to the path of the ball that is dropped on the train is considered to be imagination or delusion.

The classic response of the dualistic consciousness is to project all manner of evil on statements made from the frame of reference of the "observing consciousness".

This is why Jesus was murdered.

Michael

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