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Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality

 
Bucephelus
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Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
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A challenge filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation contends that the Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional because the bill originated in the Senate, not the House. Under the Origination Clause of the Constitution, all bills raising revenue must begin in the House.

The Supreme Court upheld most provisions of the act in June, but Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. took pains in the majority opinion to define Obamacare as a federal tax, not a mandate. That was when the Sacramento, Calif.-based foundation’s attorneys had their “aha” moment.

“The court there quite explicitly says, ‘This is not a law passed under the Commerce Clause; this is just a tax,’” foundation attorney Timothy Sandefur said at a Cato Institute forum on legal challenges to the health care act. “Well, then the Origination Clause ought to apply. The courts should not be out there carving in new exceptions to the Origination Clause.”

Legal opinion on the matter is split. Randy Barnett, a Georgetown University Law Center professor, said in an article for the Volokh Conspiracy that, “If any act violates the Origination Clause, it would seem to be the Affordable Care Act.”

[link to www.washingtontimes.com]

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Last Edited by Bucephelus on 04/01/2013 05:20 PM
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The Democrats would count their lucky stars
if the SCOTUS killed the Obama Care "tax".


Nobody wants Obama Care.


obamacare-screwe

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Bucephelus
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

Because this lawsuit is at the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.

For those who don't know, the USDCDC is a fast track to the US Supreme Court.


Chief Justice Roberts may yet redeem himself by declaring Obama Care a "tax".


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Bucephelus
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
good call
Bucephelus (OP)

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
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BTW, this is NOT an April Fool's joke.


.
Bucephelus
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
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BTW, this is NOT an April Fool's joke.


This is for REAL, people!

.

Last Edited by Bucephelus on 04/01/2013 05:23 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.


More on this story here too: [link to thestir.cafemom.com]

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Bucephelus
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2013 05:30 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
bump

Why the heck isn't this pinned GLP???

This is REAL news, and it's true. Obamacare did originate in the Senate and all bills implementing new taxes MUST originate in the House.
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2013 05:32 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
From the link:

"Where did the bill originate? If HR 3590 was a “shell bill” that had its contents completely replaced and even its title changed, did it really originate in the House, as the Justice Department says? Does the Senate have the power to turn something about home ownership for service members into an expansive health care entitlement program? If not, then could we reasonable argue that the legislation itself began in the Senate, even if the resolution number was the same?

Only one thing seems certain: We haven’t seen the last of the legal challenges over Obamacare.

Do you think the Pacific Legal Foundation has a case here?"


So GLP, what's up?
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2013 05:39 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
PIN IT!!!
Crazy Harriet

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04/01/2013 05:44 PM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Hell yes!

This is the most regressive and painful tax for the poor, regardless of income or assets, that I've seen in any developed nation. Since it was passed, the cost of our (family's) health insurance has now passed our energy costs and property taxes combined, and it's going to be multiples of this by 2014. Both families and businesses will be lined up to declare bankruptcy. Perhaps we'll have to do it in stadiums, all together now. More likely, the farmers will put down their pitchforks and march on the capital.

Just evil madness.

If it can be cut off now, there is a chance that Pelosi and the others who strong-armed this into existence might live longer than Marie Antoinette after "let them eat cake". I fear for them. I may despise them, yes, and the emperor's own evil hatred can surface(Star Wars)but above all I don't want to see the country dissolve into the likes of Paris in the terror. Please let's take the side road.

Paris in the Terror:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Let's all agree this has to go, and support everyone on that side of the aisle.
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay
ANNONYMOUS
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
5a

I think that the Attorneys involved in this suit are on shaky ground. The Bill may have originated in the Senate but in effect it was a Health Care Bill which carried with it a means to pay for it. The Bill had to go through a Conference Committee and then was returned to each respective House for passage. Since both Houses concurred in the Conference Bill it will probably stand.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Can't this be fixed by Executive Order like everything else?
Bucephelus (OP)

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
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Can't this be fixed by Executive Order like everything else?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37270235
.

Nope, this would kill Obama Care.


Some have been suggesting that Chief Justice Roberts and the
other conservatives on the Supreme Court knew this would happen.


If you get down to it, Obama Care really originated in the White House
with Obama and his staff plotting with the Unions and the AARP.

.
Bucephelus
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
The 'obamacare' fraud is ; unconstitutional in it's inception, unlawful in it's construction and illegal in it's passage by the corporation.

As with ALL mandates, rules, and codices emanating from
Washington DC, especially those so called Executive Orders,
are soley intended for those (c)itizens who reside within the ten square miles of DC, Puerto Rico, Guam, the US Virgin Islands. If you voluntarily adhere to any of these edicts from the Corporate United States, you are a fool.
Bucephelus (OP)

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
5a

I think that the Attorneys involved in this suit are on shaky ground. The Bill may have originated in the Senate but in effect it was a Health Care Bill which carried with it a means to pay for it. The Bill had to go through a Conference Committee and then was returned to each respective House for passage. Since both Houses concurred in the Conference Bill it will probably stand.
 Quoting: ANNONYMOUS 8415236
.

If you look at the Obama Care ruling, Justice Roberts hints
where he's going with this, and that he left the door open
to KILLING Obama Care at a later date:

Taxes have never been popular, see, e.g., Stamp Act of 1765,
and in part for that reason, the Constitution requires
tax increases to originate in the House of Representatives.
See Art. I, §7, cl. 1. That is to say, they must originate
in the legislative body most accountable to the people,
where legislators must weigh the need for the tax against
the terrible price they might pay at their next election,
which is never more than two years off.
The Federalist
No. 58 “defend[ed] the decision to give the origination
power to the House on the ground that the Chamber that is
more accountable to the people should have the primary role
in raising revenue.” United States v. Munoz-Flores, 495 U.
S. 385, 395 (1990).


.
Bucephelus
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
5a

I think that the Attorneys involved in this suit are on shaky ground. The Bill may have originated in the Senate but in effect it was a Health Care Bill which carried with it a means to pay for it. The Bill had to go through a Conference Committee and then was returned to each respective House for passage. Since both Houses concurred in the Conference Bill it will probably stand.
 Quoting: ANNONYMOUS 8415236
.

If you look at the Obama Care ruling, Justice Roberts hints
where he's going with this, and that he left the door open
to KILLING Obama Care at a later date:

Taxes have never been popular, see, e.g., Stamp Act of 1765,
and in part for that reason, the Constitution requires
tax increases to originate in the House of Representatives.
See Art. I, §7, cl. 1. That is to say, they must originate
in the legislative body most accountable to the people,
where legislators must weigh the need for the tax against
the terrible price they might pay at their next election,
which is never more than two years off.
The Federalist
No. 58 “defend[ed] the decision to give the origination
power to the House on the ground that the Chamber that is
more accountable to the people should have the primary role
in raising revenue.” United States v. Munoz-Flores, 495 U.
S. 385, 395 (1990).


.
 Quoting: Bucephelus
.


Understand that the reason the Majority of the Court couldn't
kill Obama Care was because the Origination Clause was not the
main argument brought forth by those who were suing the Government.

However, that's what THIS case specifically argues.

.
Bucephelus
Alexander

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04/01/2013 07:45 PM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Hell yes!

This is the most regressive and painful tax for the poor, regardless of income or assets, that I've seen in any developed nation. Since it was passed, the cost of our (family's) health insurance has now passed our energy costs and property taxes combined, and it's going to be multiples of this by 2014. Both families and businesses will be lined up to declare bankruptcy. Perhaps we'll have to do it in stadiums, all together now. More likely, the farmers will put down their pitchforks and march on the capital.

Just evil madness.

If it can be cut off now, there is a chance that Pelosi and the others who strong-armed this into existence might live longer than Marie Antoinette after "let them eat cake". I fear for them. I may despise them, yes, and the emperor's own evil hatred can surface(Star Wars)but above all I don't want to see the country dissolve into the likes of Paris in the terror. Please let's take the side road.

Paris in the Terror:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Let's all agree this has to go, and support everyone on that side of the aisle.
 Quoting: Crazy Harriet


Indeed, the negative karma the've brought down upon themselves by pushing this evil through is immense and unrelenting.
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.
Winston Churchill
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04/01/2013 07:49 PM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

A challenge filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation contends that the Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional because the bill originated in the Senate, not the House. Under the Origination Clause of the Constitution, all bills raising revenue must begin in the House.

The Supreme Court upheld most provisions of the act in June, but Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. took pains in the majority opinion to define Obamacare as a federal tax, not a mandate. That was when the Sacramento, Calif.-based foundation’s attorneys had their “aha” moment.

“The court there quite explicitly says, ‘This is not a law passed under the Commerce Clause; this is just a tax,’” foundation attorney Timothy Sandefur said at a Cato Institute forum on legal challenges to the health care act. “Well, then the Origination Clause ought to apply. The courts should not be out there carving in new exceptions to the Origination Clause.”

Legal opinion on the matter is split. Randy Barnett, a Georgetown University Law Center professor, said in an article for the Volokh Conspiracy that, “If any act violates the Origination Clause, it would seem to be the Affordable Care Act.”

[link to www.washingtontimes.com]

,
 Quoting: Bucephelus


Let's hope this is successful....and/or the Republicans take the House, Senate and the Presidency and repeal this monstrosity.

The useful idiots and sheep are realizing they have been had.

olies obamapool olies
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
It's a tax bullshit it is

It's a fucking mandate and they know it.
--> [link to nextgenfm.com]

We used to look up at the sky and wonder at our place in the stars, now we just look down and worry about our place in the dirt.
Bucephelus (OP)

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
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It's a tax bullshit it is

It's a fucking mandate and they know it.

.
 Quoting: Astral Goat
.


Indeed.

But we need to kill Obama Care using the right legal language.


Team Obama argues that the Senate took a Bill that originated
in the House, gutted the language, inserted the Obama Care
language, then followed with the "deemed it passed in the
House".

However, the fact is that a "Deeming Resolution" is not
officially defined, nor is there any specific statute or standing
rule authorizing such legislation.


.
Bucephelus
Bucephelus (OP)

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

It's a tax bullshit it is

It's a fucking mandate and they know it.

.
 Quoting: Astral Goat
.


Indeed.

But we need to kill Obama Care using the right legal language.


Team Obama argues that the Senate took a Bill that originated
in the House, gutted the language, inserted the Obama Care
language, then followed with the "deemed it passed in the
House".

However, the fact is that a "Deeming Resolution" is not
officially defined, nor is there any specific statute or standing
rule authorizing such legislation.


.
 Quoting: Bucephelus
.

That will be a big part of what kills Obama Care in this lawsuit ...

... a "Deeming Resolution" is not representative government, and
thus recognized when weighed against Article 1, Section 7 of the
US Constitution.

It just took a major case like this one about Obama Care to
finally get the issue in front of the Supreme Court.

.
Bucephelus
anonanon
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04/01/2013 08:44 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Can't happen fast enough.

People are already getting screwed with being reduced to workiing fewer thn 30 hours a week because companies do not know how much this will cost them.

Premiums are already going up and doctors offices are being inundated with useless paperwork.

Who knows how much is being spent building the bureaucracy that will be needed to enforce the 20,000 pages of regulations --- yes, that is right -- recently written by all sorts of non-health care agencies.

All anyone really wanted was a little reasonabe insurance and malpractice lawsuit reforms such as selling insurance across state lines, giving individuals the same rates as groups, and not refusing coverage for pre-existing conditions and removing the lifetime limits.

All of that could have been done in a few pages. Did not need 2700 pages to do it and we still don't really know what all is in those pages.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Nothing will kill this thing.

Origination from the senate was pointed out from the outset by Ron Paul and others.

I'm not sure what reality you guys are living in, but from where I stood Republicans helped nudge this thing through multiple times when it could have been stalled. There was always ONE REPUBLICAN who got it through committee, or ONE REPUBLICAN who waved right to stall, or ONE REPUBLICAN got it to the floor to vote on it. There was a good bit of political theater involved to be sure - but this thing was a bipartisan smokescreen.

Here is the bottom line:

The U.S. Dollar is collapsing, and an unprecedented number of penniless "baby boomers" will be broke and seeking health care... this is a plan to manage the crisis... and by manage it I mean ration it.

You guys can keep waiting a year or two at a time for the SCOTUS to hear a case, or for the REPUBLICANS to fix it... but the fact is the REPUBLICANS worked with the DEMOCRATS to get it passed - it isn't going anywhere.
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2013 08:56 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
THIS is what happens when people have a LITTLE knowledge, and STILL can't understand what they know!!

REVENUE Bills must originate in The House, the Affordable Care Act IS NOT a 'revenue' Bill.


sigh



.
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/01/2013 09:01 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

You guys can keep waiting a year or two at a time for the SCOTUS to hear a case, or for the REPUBLICANS to fix it... but the fact is the REPUBLICANS worked with the DEMOCRATS to get it passed - it isn't going anywhere.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816
.

No, in all of the votes back and forth on Obama Care, there
was only ONE republican defector, and he was a fucking RINO
who lost re-election anywa.

Meanwhile, the House had as many as 40 Democrat defectors
join the republicans to vote against Obama Care.

In the Senate, there was never 60 votes to pass Obama Care.


Sorry -- Obama Care had a built-in poison pill by starting
in the Senate. Now someone is finally asking a Court to agree
with that supposition.

.
Bucephelus
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
bump for pin!
Waterbug

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
THIS is what happens when people have a LITTLE knowledge, and STILL can't understand what they know!!

REVENUE Bills must originate in The House, the Affordable Care Act IS NOT a 'revenue' Bill.


sigh



.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9253150



It is if it is determined to be a tax.
CatBTX

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04/01/2013 09:04 PM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
THIS is what happens when people have a LITTLE knowledge, and STILL can't understand what they know!!

REVENUE Bills must originate in The House, the Affordable Care Act IS NOT a 'revenue' Bill.


sigh



.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9253150


Tax is revenue. The only reason it made it through the Supreme Court is due to that very point.
Bucephelus (OP)

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
THIS is what happens when people have a LITTLE knowledge, and STILL can't understand what they know!!

REVENUE Bills must originate in The House, the Affordable Care Act IS NOT a 'revenue' Bill.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9253150
.


Obama Care is a TAX.

And that will be its undoing.


[link to www.supremecourt.gov]

.
Bucephelus
Bucephelus (OP)

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bump
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