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Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality

 
Little Baby Jesus
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04/02/2013 06:32 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
...


Uh....No. Many laws have been passed by Congress that have later been held as unconstitutional by SCOTUS. That's why we have the three branches of government. Checks and balances.
 Quoting: Little Baby Jesus



Have you not being paying attention to the last 4+ years... Obama doesn't think there are 3 branches... he thinks and acts as if there is one... him... open your eyes and look at what he has done...
militiamilitia
 Quoting: Sleeping Giant16


Calm down my friend, I have been paying attention and am well aware of what's going on. I was merely answering Latvia's question, not stating an opinion. This is a problem on this site. Many people are spring loaded to attack based upon pure emotion and false assumptions. And let it be ivery clear, this is EXACTLY what TPTB count on.

Appology accepted.
 Quoting: Little Baby Jesus

I was not spring loaded to attack anything. Relax... maybe you should have went a bit deeper in your answer to her. Keep calm and Chive on.
militia
 Quoting: Sleeping Giant16


Fair enough.

This erosion of 'inalienable' rights is frightening. Unfortunately, the manipulation of public opinion and perception is being waged by a very clever and patient class of corporatists. But that's just my opinion.
BKK
-----------------------
"A God of the Gaps is assigned
responsibility for what we do not yet understand." Carl Sagan
calin

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04/02/2013 06:32 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

Because this lawsuit is at the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.

For those who don't know, the USDCDC is a fast track to the US Supreme Court.


Chief Justice Roberts may yet redeem himself by declaring Obama Care a "tax".


.
 Quoting: Bucephelus


He did declare it as a tax. Please reread the first post. hf
Saddletramp
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04/02/2013 06:39 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Obamacare originated in the House. The original bill had almost nothing to do with health care. That bill changed and made into Obamacare in the Senate.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9422178


What they called the Mandate, and what the Court changed to a tax in order to make it semi-Constitutional originated in the Senate...

The House Bill was not passed by the Senate if you remember, an entirely new bill was put together (Obamacare), passed by the Senate...then thrown back to the House in what was one of the most protested events in the history of the Capitol!
"And how can a man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods..." ~ Horatius

"Because he told the truth, and once you've heard the truth, everything else is just cheap whiskey..."
Sleeping Giant16

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04/02/2013 06:58 AM

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...



Have you not being paying attention to the last 4+ years... Obama doesn't think there are 3 branches... he thinks and acts as if there is one... him... open your eyes and look at what he has done...
militiamilitia
 Quoting: Sleeping Giant16


Calm down my friend, I have been paying attention and am well aware of what's going on. I was merely answering Latvia's question, not stating an opinion. This is a problem on this site. Many people are spring loaded to attack based upon pure emotion and false assumptions. And let it be ivery clear, this is EXACTLY what TPTB count on.

Appology accepted.
 Quoting: Little Baby Jesus

I was not spring loaded to attack anything. Relax... maybe you should have went a bit deeper in your answer to her. Keep calm and Chive on.
militia
 Quoting: Sleeping Giant16


Fair enough.

This erosion of 'inalienable' rights is frightening. Unfortunately, the manipulation of public opinion and perception is being waged by a very clever and patient class of corporatists. But that's just my opinion.
 Quoting: Little Baby Jesus


The end game is about who gives us our rights? I am not a religious person. But the Constitution states our rights are given to us by our creator. Now why do you suppose god and traditions having to do with god are being taken out of our schools, counties, etc.? The end game is to change who gives us our rights... Government doesn't give us our rights. Being born a citizen in this country is what gives us our rights, not government. People need to start thinking outside the box and past tomorrow. We aren't dealing with stupid people here. Obama and our government is not incompetent. They know exactly what they are doing... but many people are to stupid to see this. growing government works well for the government. You think all of those federal employees are going to vote for a guy that has vowed to cut the size of government? Look at all the waste... tests for shrimp sexually practices. Who do you think does these tests? Makes the products that help them do the tests. Who do you think all of these people are going to vote for? Hence the continuation and down fall of America. Everyone and I mean everyone has their hands out. I love when people say those evil rich people use loop holes. Um yeah so do you just on a smaller level. Own a house? mortgage interest deduction tax loop hole. Kids in day care or college or private school. Tax loop hole. People are hypocrites...militia

Last Edited by Sleeping Giant16 on 04/02/2013 06:59 AM
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WatcherJ

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04/02/2013 07:02 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I just hope the ones filing the suit realize that not only is it the "penalty" mandate "tax" a tax, but there is also the tax imposed on medical devices and if I am not mistaken there is also a tax increase on anyone making over 250k to help pay for it. That in and of itself should cause it to be unconstitutional since it originated in the senate.
Saddletramp
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04/02/2013 07:12 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I just hope the ones filing the suit realize that not only is it the "penalty" mandate "tax" a tax, but there is also the tax imposed on medical devices and if I am not mistaken there is also a tax increase on anyone making over 250k to help pay for it. That in and of itself should cause it to be unconstitutional since it originated in the senate.
 Quoting: WatcherJ


Well it would kill the bill's entire funding mechanism...it would just die.

But here's the fun part, they've already hired people, they've spent billions moving towards this train wreck of a bill...now to have all of that undone...

What a fuckin' waste...and a waste from a "Constitutional Scholar" like Obama, who should have known better...

Looks bad...looks very very bad...
"And how can a man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods..." ~ Horatius

"Because he told the truth, and once you've heard the truth, everything else is just cheap whiskey..."
Sleeping Giant16

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04/02/2013 07:16 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I just hope the ones filing the suit realize that not only is it the "penalty" mandate "tax" a tax, but there is also the tax imposed on medical devices and if I am not mistaken there is also a tax increase on anyone making over 250k to help pay for it. That in and of itself should cause it to be unconstitutional since it originated in the senate.
 Quoting: WatcherJ


Well it would kill the bill's entire funding mechanism...it would just die.

But here's the fun part, they've already hired people, they've spent billions moving towards this train wreck of a bill...now to have all of that undone...

What a fuckin' waste...and a waste from a "Constitutional Scholar" like Obama, who should have known better...

Looks bad...looks very very bad...
 Quoting: Saddletramp


That is exactly why nothing will come of all of this or anything in the future. The excuse will be... Obamacare has already dug into the system on every level and to do away with it now will bring down the system and the economy. Republicans and Democrats are in on it... wake u people. Do you trust Republicans because? Because why? Think they are for the Constitution? Tell me again who started the DHS? TSA? Patriot Act? Shall I go on? Both parties are in on it.
militia
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Saddletramp
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04/02/2013 07:18 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I just hope the ones filing the suit realize that not only is it the "penalty" mandate "tax" a tax, but there is also the tax imposed on medical devices and if I am not mistaken there is also a tax increase on anyone making over 250k to help pay for it. That in and of itself should cause it to be unconstitutional since it originated in the senate.
 Quoting: WatcherJ


Well it would kill the bill's entire funding mechanism...it would just die.

But here's the fun part, they've already hired people, they've spent billions moving towards this train wreck of a bill...now to have all of that undone...

What a fuckin' waste...and a waste from a "Constitutional Scholar" like Obama, who should have known better...

Looks bad...looks very very bad...
 Quoting: Saddletramp


That is exactly why nothing will come of all of this or anything in the future. The excuse will be... Obamacare has already dug into the system on every level and to do away with it now will bring down the system and the economy. Republicans and Democrats are in on it... wake u people. Do you trust Republicans because? Because why? Think they are for the Constitution? Tell me again who started the DHS? TSA? Patriot Act? Shall I go on? Both parties are in on it.
militia
 Quoting: Sleeping Giant16


Frankly I dunno how they get around this one, but we'll see what "Creative" language SCOTUS comes up with this time...
"And how can a man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods..." ~ Horatius

"Because he told the truth, and once you've heard the truth, everything else is just cheap whiskey..."
aqmah

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04/02/2013 07:22 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality


damned
Sleeping Giant16

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04/02/2013 07:28 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I just hope the ones filing the suit realize that not only is it the "penalty" mandate "tax" a tax, but there is also the tax imposed on medical devices and if I am not mistaken there is also a tax increase on anyone making over 250k to help pay for it. That in and of itself should cause it to be unconstitutional since it originated in the senate.
 Quoting: WatcherJ


Well it would kill the bill's entire funding mechanism...it would just die.

But here's the fun part, they've already hired people, they've spent billions moving towards this train wreck of a bill...now to have all of that undone...

What a fuckin' waste...and a waste from a "Constitutional Scholar" like Obama, who should have known better...

Looks bad...looks very very bad...
 Quoting: Saddletramp


That is exactly why nothing will come of all of this or anything in the future. The excuse will be... Obamacare has already dug into the system on every level and to do away with it now will bring down the system and the economy. Republicans and Democrats are in on it... wake u people. Do you trust Republicans because? Because why? Think they are for the Constitution? Tell me again who started the DHS? TSA? Patriot Act? Shall I go on? Both parties are in on it.
militia
 Quoting: Sleeping Giant16


Frankly I dunno how they get around this one, but we'll see what "Creative" language SCOTUS comes up with this time...
 Quoting: Saddletramp

Same way our government (Republicans) passed the Patriot Act. Same way that DHS is quickly turning into the civilian army Obama spoke about. Same way our government can now pick up people with no warrant like Brandon Raub and others. Same way Obama has skipped even the easiest of laws that he as president needs to keep in line with. Obama is/was the perfect storm. Black, didn't not grow up in the US. raised by Marxists. Funded by Arabs, and owes much to many with outside American interests. After the shit storm Bush put on the Constitution, did people really think Obama would be better? They are always worse... they are politicians that are puppets. as a society we continue to deal with more and more infractions on our liberties and rights. Clinton punched us in the gut, Bush punched us in the face, Obama picked up a 2x4 and hit us over the head with it, the next guy will be worse and then the next will be even worse then him/her. Hillary will win in 2016. Unless we stop the blame game paradigm. Go Libertarian...
militia
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Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 07:31 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

Because this lawsuit is at the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.

For those who don't know, the USDCDC is a fast track to the US Supreme Court.


Chief Justice Roberts may yet redeem himself by declaring Obama Care a "tax".


.
 Quoting: Bucephelus


Roberts knew exactly what he was doing when he called it a tax. The right lawsuit has finally been brought to fit that ruling.
Sleeping Giant16

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04/02/2013 07:35 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

Because this lawsuit is at the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.

For those who don't know, the USDCDC is a fast track to the US Supreme Court.


Chief Justice Roberts may yet redeem himself by declaring Obama Care a "tax".


.
 Quoting: Bucephelus


Roberts knew exactly what he was doing when he called it a tax. The right lawsuit has finally been brought to fit that ruling.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1699830

clappa

let's hope but I still don't think anything will come of it. I mean look at fast and Furious, Benghazi, Obama's SS#, him running guns in the middle east arming Al-Qaeda, nothing will come of it... repubs r in on it too.////
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Little Baby Jesus
§ Control is an Illusion §

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04/02/2013 07:35 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I just hope the ones filing the suit realize that not only is it the "penalty" mandate "tax" a tax, but there is also the tax imposed on medical devices and if I am not mistaken there is also a tax increase on anyone making over 250k to help pay for it. That in and of itself should cause it to be unconstitutional since it originated in the senate.
 Quoting: WatcherJ


Well it would kill the bill's entire funding mechanism...it would just die.

But here's the fun part, they've already hired people, they've spent billions moving towards this train wreck of a bill...now to have all of that undone...

What a fuckin' waste...and a waste from a "Constitutional Scholar" like Obama, who should have known better...

Looks bad...looks very very bad...
 Quoting: Saddletramp


That is exactly why nothing will come of all of this or anything in the future. The excuse will be... Obamacare has already dug into the system on every level and to do away with it now will bring down the system and the economy. Republicans and Democrats are in on it... wake u people. Do you trust Republicans because? Because why? Think they are for the Constitution? Tell me again who started the DHS? TSA? Patriot Act? Shall I go on? Both parties are in on it.
militia
 Quoting: Sleeping Giant16


Frankly I dunno how they get around this one, but we'll see what "Creative" language SCOTUS comes up with this time...
 Quoting: Saddletramp


That's assuming it gets to the SCOTUS. Remember, they have the final say on whether or not to 'cert' (accept) a case for adjudication. They can merely refuse to hear the case.
BKK
-----------------------
"A God of the Gaps is assigned
responsibility for what we do not yet understand." Carl Sagan
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 07:38 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
All they have to do is run is run it through the Congress after this is killed. Maybe give us an extra 1 - 2 years of freedom until then
Little Baby Jesus
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I just hope the ones filing the suit realize that not only is it the "penalty" mandate "tax" a tax, but there is also the tax imposed on medical devices and if I am not mistaken there is also a tax increase on anyone making over 250k to help pay for it. That in and of itself should cause it to be unconstitutional since it originated in the senate.
 Quoting: WatcherJ


Well it would kill the bill's entire funding mechanism...it would just die.

But here's the fun part, they've already hired people, they've spent billions moving towards this train wreck of a bill...now to have all of that undone...

What a fuckin' waste...and a waste from a "Constitutional Scholar" like Obama, who should have known better...

Looks bad...looks very very bad...
 Quoting: Saddletramp


That is exactly why nothing will come of all of this or anything in the future. The excuse will be... Obamacare has already dug into the system on every level and to do away with it now will bring down the system and the economy. Republicans and Democrats are in on it... wake u people. Do you trust Republicans because? Because why? Think they are for the Constitution? Tell me again who started the DHS? TSA? Patriot Act? Shall I go on? Both parties are in on it.
militia
 Quoting: Sleeping Giant16


The two party system is a clever sham. Remember divide and conquer? Neither 'party' controls anything; those behind the scenes with the real power, an unlimited supply of money are who control.
BKK
-----------------------
"A God of the Gaps is assigned
responsibility for what we do not yet understand." Carl Sagan
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 07:43 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
That's not a technicality, that's the law.

And something needs to kill Obama care, because if not, it's going to kill us.
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 07:54 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
If you'd like to put your money where your mouth is applause here is the donation page for the Pacific Legal Foundation:

[link to www.pacificlegal.org (secure)]

<<<For 40 years, we’ve been America’s leading litigators to “rescue liberty” — regardless of who’s in power in the White House, Congress, or the state houses. YOUR GENEROUS SUPPORT will help us keep standing up to overreaching elected officials and bureaucrats, and defending their victims in court. With your help, we will keep defending American liberties, for this generation and those to come!>>>
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/02/2013 07:57 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

Because this lawsuit is at the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.

For those who don't know, the USDCDC is a fast track to the US Supreme Court.


Chief Justice Roberts may yet redeem himself by declaring Obama Care a "tax".


.
 Quoting: Bucephelus
,

He did declare it as a tax. Please reread the first post. hf

.
 Quoting: calin
.


Yes, that's the point.


By declaring Obama Care a "tax", he is thought to have set up
the very means to kill Obama Care.

Because Obama Care did NOT start in the House -- only "deemed
as passed"
-- it did not follow the Origination Clause of the
Constitution requiring Tax (Revenue) Bills to originate in the
House of Representatives.


Again: the fact is that a "Deeming Resolution" is not
officially defined, nor is there any specific statute or standing
rule authorizing such legislation as being compliant with Article I,
Section 7 of the Constitution requiring Tax Bills to originate
in the House.


.
Bucephelus
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04/02/2013 07:57 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Nothing will happen and black jesus care will be implemented. Both sides want it for a campaign issue but that is all.

A pox on both their houses!!!
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 08:07 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Please god, let the people win and have this obama care tax thrown out.
Little Baby Jesus
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04/02/2013 08:16 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Here's the salient verbiage in the proposed Complaint:

SECOND CLAIM FOR RELIEF FOR VIOLATION OF THE ORIGINATION CLAUSE (U.S. CONST. ART. I, § 7, CL. 1)

35. Plaintiff incorporates and re-alleges each and every allegation contained in the preceding paragraphs of this Complaint as though fully set forth herein.

36. The Act requires nonexempt individuals who do not buy a federally prescribed health-insurance plan to make a “shared responsibility payment” along with their tax filings.

37. The Supreme Court held that the “shared responsibility payment” is a tax on nonexempt individuals who do not purchase health insurance, and is constitutional under Congress’s power to “lay and collect Taxes” under Article I, section 8, clause 1, of the Constitution. NFIB, 132 respects”—for example, it is assessed and collected by the IRS, it is paid into the Treasury, and it raises revenue for the Government. Id. at 2594. The Court had no occasion to consider the constitutionality of the tax under other provisions of the Constitution, including the Origination Clause.

38. The Origination Clause of the Constitution provides that “[a]ll Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives.” U.S. Const. Art. I, § 7, cl. 1. Bills that are subject to the Origination Clause “rais[e] revenue to support Government generally.” United States v. Munoz-Flores, 495 U.S. 385, 398 (1990).

39. The “shared responsibility payment” is a tax that raises revenue to support Government generally. The tax is paid into the Treasury when individuals file their tax returns, and the amount is based on “such familiar factors as taxable income, number of dependents, and joint filing status.” NFIB, 132 S. Ct. at 2594. The requirement to pay is in the Internal Revenue Code and is enforced by the IRS, which “must assess and collect it ‘in the same manner as taxes.’” Id. (quoting Act). Most importantly, the tax produces “considerable revenue” for the Government, id. At 2596—“about $4 billion per year by 2017,” id. at 2594. The purpose of the tax is not to finance or defray the cost of any particular government program. And, while “[e]very tax is in some measure regulatory,” this tax raises substantial revenue to support the Government generally. Id. at 2596 (internal citation and quotation marks omitted).

40. Despite the fact that the Act raises considerable revenues, it originated in the Senate, not the House. In September, 2009, the House passed H.R. 3590, entitled the “Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009.” H.R. 3590, 111th Cong. (2009) (attached hereto as Exhibit 1). The bill would have “amend[ed] the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify first-time homebuyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees”; it had nothing to do with health insurance reform. Id. In November of that year, the Senate purported to “amend” the House bill by gutting its contents, replacing them with health-insurance reforms (including the purchase requirement and associated payment), and renaming the bill the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.” Senate Amendment No. 2786, 111th Cong. (2009) (purporting to “amend” H.R. 3590) (attached hereto as Exhibit 2). The Senate’s substitute legislation—a revenue-raising tax bill—became the Affordable Care Act. See attached Exhibit 3 (official history of H.R. 3590 from the original bill concerning the first-time homebuyer credit through to passage of Act).

41. Because the tax originated in the Senate, and not in the House, it violates the
Origination Clause.


[link to www.pacificlegal.org]

We'll see what happens.
BKK
-----------------------
"A God of the Gaps is assigned
responsibility for what we do not yet understand." Carl Sagan
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 08:26 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Here's the salient verbiage in the proposed Complaint:

SECOND CLAIM FOR RELIEF FOR VIOLATION OF THE ORIGINATION CLAUSE (U.S. CONST. ART. I, § 7, CL. 1)

35. Plaintiff incorporates and re-alleges each and every allegation contained in the preceding paragraphs of this Complaint as though fully set forth herein.

36. The Act requires nonexempt individuals who do not buy a federally prescribed health-insurance plan to make a “shared responsibility payment” along with their tax filings.

37. The Supreme Court held that the “shared responsibility payment” is a tax on nonexempt individuals who do not purchase health insurance, and is constitutional under Congress’s power to “lay and collect Taxes” under Article I, section 8, clause 1, of the Constitution. NFIB, 132 respects”—for example, it is assessed and collected by the IRS, it is paid into the Treasury, and it raises revenue for the Government. Id. at 2594. The Court had no occasion to consider the constitutionality of the tax under other provisions of the Constitution, including the Origination Clause.

38. The Origination Clause of the Constitution provides that “[a]ll Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives.” U.S. Const. Art. I, § 7, cl. 1. Bills that are subject to the Origination Clause “rais[e] revenue to support Government generally.” United States v. Munoz-Flores, 495 U.S. 385, 398 (1990).

39. The “shared responsibility payment” is a tax that raises revenue to support Government generally. The tax is paid into the Treasury when individuals file their tax returns, and the amount is based on “such familiar factors as taxable income, number of dependents, and joint filing status.” NFIB, 132 S. Ct. at 2594. The requirement to pay is in the Internal Revenue Code and is enforced by the IRS, which “must assess and collect it ‘in the same manner as taxes.’” Id. (quoting Act). Most importantly, the tax produces “considerable revenue” for the Government, id. At 2596—“about $4 billion per year by 2017,” id. at 2594. The purpose of the tax is not to finance or defray the cost of any particular government program. And, while “[e]very tax is in some measure regulatory,” this tax raises substantial revenue to support the Government generally. Id. at 2596 (internal citation and quotation marks omitted).

40. Despite the fact that the Act raises considerable revenues, it originated in the Senate, not the House. In September, 2009, the House passed H.R. 3590, entitled the “Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009.” H.R. 3590, 111th Cong. (2009) (attached hereto as Exhibit 1). The bill would have “amend[ed] the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify first-time homebuyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees”; it had nothing to do with health insurance reform. Id. In November of that year, the Senate purported to “amend” the House bill by gutting its contents, replacing them with health-insurance reforms (including the purchase requirement and associated payment), and renaming the bill the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.” Senate Amendment No. 2786, 111th Cong. (2009) (purporting to “amend” H.R. 3590) (attached hereto as Exhibit 2). The Senate’s substitute legislation—a revenue-raising tax bill—became the Affordable Care Act. See attached Exhibit 3 (official history of H.R. 3590 from the original bill concerning the first-time homebuyer credit through to passage of Act).

41. Because the tax originated in the Senate, and not in the House, it violates the
Origination Clause.


[link to www.pacificlegal.org]

We'll see what happens.
 Quoting: Little Baby Jesus


What is described in paragraph 40 is exactly what happened with TARP iirc. Was it Constitutional then?
Little Baby Jesus
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04/02/2013 08:29 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Here's the salient verbiage in the proposed Complaint:

SECOND CLAIM FOR RELIEF FOR VIOLATION OF THE ORIGINATION CLAUSE (U.S. CONST. ART. I, § 7, CL. 1)

35. Plaintiff incorporates and re-alleges each and every allegation contained in the preceding paragraphs of this Complaint as though fully set forth herein.

36. The Act requires nonexempt individuals who do not buy a federally prescribed health-insurance plan to make a “shared responsibility payment” along with their tax filings.

37. The Supreme Court held that the “shared responsibility payment” is a tax on nonexempt individuals who do not purchase health insurance, and is constitutional under Congress’s power to “lay and collect Taxes” under Article I, section 8, clause 1, of the Constitution. NFIB, 132 respects”—for example, it is assessed and collected by the IRS, it is paid into the Treasury, and it raises revenue for the Government. Id. at 2594. The Court had no occasion to consider the constitutionality of the tax under other provisions of the Constitution, including the Origination Clause.

38. The Origination Clause of the Constitution provides that “[a]ll Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives.” U.S. Const. Art. I, § 7, cl. 1. Bills that are subject to the Origination Clause “rais[e] revenue to support Government generally.” United States v. Munoz-Flores, 495 U.S. 385, 398 (1990).

39. The “shared responsibility payment” is a tax that raises revenue to support Government generally. The tax is paid into the Treasury when individuals file their tax returns, and the amount is based on “such familiar factors as taxable income, number of dependents, and joint filing status.” NFIB, 132 S. Ct. at 2594. The requirement to pay is in the Internal Revenue Code and is enforced by the IRS, which “must assess and collect it ‘in the same manner as taxes.’” Id. (quoting Act). Most importantly, the tax produces “considerable revenue” for the Government, id. At 2596—“about $4 billion per year by 2017,” id. at 2594. The purpose of the tax is not to finance or defray the cost of any particular government program. And, while “[e]very tax is in some measure regulatory,” this tax raises substantial revenue to support the Government generally. Id. at 2596 (internal citation and quotation marks omitted).

40. Despite the fact that the Act raises considerable revenues, it originated in the Senate, not the House. In September, 2009, the House passed H.R. 3590, entitled the “Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009.” H.R. 3590, 111th Cong. (2009) (attached hereto as Exhibit 1). The bill would have “amend[ed] the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify first-time homebuyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees”; it had nothing to do with health insurance reform. Id. In November of that year, the Senate purported to “amend” the House bill by gutting its contents, replacing them with health-insurance reforms (including the purchase requirement and associated payment), and renaming the bill the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.” Senate Amendment No. 2786, 111th Cong. (2009) (purporting to “amend” H.R. 3590) (attached hereto as Exhibit 2). The Senate’s substitute legislation—a revenue-raising tax bill—became the Affordable Care Act. See attached Exhibit 3 (official history of H.R. 3590 from the original bill concerning the first-time homebuyer credit through to passage of Act).

41. Because the tax originated in the Senate, and not in the House, it violates the
Origination Clause.


[link to www.pacificlegal.org]

We'll see what happens.
 Quoting: Little Baby Jesus


What is described in paragraph 40 is exactly what happened with TARP iirc. Was it Constitutional then?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24537404


IDK, was it challenged in a case that made it to SCOTUS?
BKK
-----------------------
"A God of the Gaps is assigned
responsibility for what we do not yet understand." Carl Sagan
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 37282989
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04/02/2013 08:39 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Why don't you meanies want the pooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrr to have health care!!!!!!!!!!!!
 Quoting: chuckles 36801153


Oh even the poor would not like this type of healthcare.
 Quoting: Superduper


Just you wait...Drug testing for everyone is coming,not just welfare recipients.
And, if they do what they are doing here, its no painkillers if you have any cannabis in your system, even if you have a broken neck.

Rehab for drinkers, smokers, fat people, gun owners...
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/02/2013 08:40 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Here's the salient verbiage in the proposed Complaint:

SECOND CLAIM FOR RELIEF FOR VIOLATION OF THE ORIGINATION CLAUSE (U.S. CONST. ART. I, § 7, CL. 1)

....

38. The Origination Clause of the Constitution provides that “[a]ll Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives.” U.S. Const. Art. I, § 7, cl. 1. Bills that are subject to the Origination Clause “rais[e] revenue to support Government generally.” United States v. Munoz-Flores, 495 U.S. 385, 398 (1990).

...

40. Despite the fact that the Act raises considerable revenues, it originated in the Senate, not the House. In September, 2009, the House passed H.R. 3590, entitled the “Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009.” H.R. 3590, 111th Cong. (2009) (attached hereto as Exhibit 1). The bill would have “amend[ed] the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify first-time homebuyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees”; it had nothing to do with health insurance reform. Id. In November of that year, the Senate purported to “amend” the House bill by gutting its contents, replacing them with health-insurance reforms (including the purchase requirement and associated payment), and renaming the bill the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.” Senate Amendment No. 2786, 111th Cong. (2009) (purporting to “amend” H.R. 3590) (attached hereto as Exhibit 2). The Senate’s substitute legislation—a revenue-raising tax bill—became the Affordable Care Act. See attached Exhibit 3 (official history of H.R. 3590 from the original bill concerning the first-time homebuyer credit through to passage of Act).

41. Because the tax originated in the Senate, and not in the House, it violates the
Origination Clause.


[link to www.pacificlegal.org]

We'll see what happens.
 Quoting: Little Baby Jesus
.


What is described in paragraph 40 is exactly what
happened with TARP iirc.

Was it Constitutional then?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24537404
.


No, but I'm not aware of any group who actually challenged
TARP in Federal Court citing the "Origination Clause" of the
Constitution.


The Supreme Court is very UNLIKELY to recognize the so-called
"Deeming Resolution" that Pelosi and Reid used for Obama Care.

.
Bucephelus
Little Baby Jesus
§ Control is an Illusion §

User ID: 36900483
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04/02/2013 08:40 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Why don't you meanies want the pooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrr to have health care!!!!!!!!!!!!
 Quoting: chuckles 36801153


Oh even the poor would not like this type of healthcare.
 Quoting: Superduper


Just you wait...Drug testing for everyone is coming,not just welfare recipients.
And, if they do what they are doing here, its no painkillers if you have any cannabis in your system, even if you have a broken neck.

Rehab for drinkers, smokers, fat people, gun owners...
 Quoting: zenobiaphobia


Oh brother, can't wait to see the reaction to this.
BKK
-----------------------
"A God of the Gaps is assigned
responsibility for what we do not yet understand." Carl Sagan
Crazy Harriet

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04/02/2013 08:42 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Actually, while it's nice to remember that everything these clowns are doing is unlawful from the get-go, it won't amount to a hill of beans.

They will ignore the laws and where they are found in the wrong in court, will ignore the judgment of the courts.

So don't get your hopes up. Not saying don't prove your point, just don't attach any emotion of hope to it.
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 08:50 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I don't recall the constitutionality of TARP ever being challenged! So yes there is hope Obamacare can be challenged and won. How the hell can the Senate take a House Bill that has nothing to do with healthcare,completely gut it, and make it into something totally different?
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/02/2013 08:53 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

I don't recall the constitutionality of TARP ever being challenged! So yes there is hope Obamacare can be challenged and won. How the hell can the Senate take a House Bill that has nothing to do with healthcare,completely gut it, and make it into something totally different?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37262676
.


Exactly.


,
Bucephelus
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/02/2013 09:09 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.


Liberals better hope that Obama Care is KILLED before the 2014
mid-term Congressional elections.


As parts start kicking in, people are going to hate it even MORE!


.
Bucephelus

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