The two witnesses in different books

And I, 444 believe that Joshua is just an example of Zerubbabel after the Lord exchanges his dirty garments, and zerubabbel appears as the Branch. Now, the common teaching is towards waterman's belief. Nevertheless, I believe discernment manifest a hidden depiction /message.

Listen, I have to go to bed. Got to go to the Zoo tomorrow and if I should fall asleep while there, I might get ate by one of the less friendly creatures...good nite all discerning and wise viewers, and good nite to you also waterman.

you were about right as a left hand turn but I can ignore your wrong interpretations for a few days I guess..happy memorial day weekend 227...don't stay inside all weekend

The zoo?! Zoos always depress me. I can feel the animals' unhappiness. Please pray for the animals tmrw!

Agree, but the children I accompany, only see what they want, and the truth would be cruel. So yes, prayer is in order.

I see the dilemma.... I hate that it would be cruel. I wish everyone could handle the truth. This really bugs me. It's not how it's supposed to be.

Like this monkey?

[link to youtu.be]

nope ...not like that monkey

I am far more correct than assuming that the Word says Joshua and Zerrubbabel are the two anointed that stand before the Lord.

Waterman, you are making that up! It actually says the two olive trees represents those two anointed , but it does not say it is Joshua and Zerubbabel. This is the teachings of men. Nevertheless, simply because the statement is in the same surroundings as the verses of the Joshua and Zerubbabel chapters, does not mean it is them. not either both, or one, or even others being discussed.

God's Word is not always the easy directive when it is declared. His Word, and his ways are a mystery. All the wisest men on earth thought they knew what the Word was saying, but when Christ came they didn't have the slightest idea, and didn't even recognize him as their messiah. So dead set, in their beliefs by wrong teachings they still do not recognize him 2000 years later!. So, also will it be with the prince/priest [Isa.52:15kjv.] Because, they had believed a lie, taught them wrongly by misinterpretations of the scripture. For they read what they thought it taught and what others told them what it taught. Yet, they could not correctly discern from mans'... the worlds teachings.

The state of a fallen world. Much different than the creator intended.

Joshua and Zerubbabel are the high priest and the govenor of judah and are the two olive trees. Reference Revealation 11 to the separation of the two witnesses:

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.



two witnesses are the two olive trees just as Joshua the high preist and zerubbabel are described building the physical temple and in the end the high priest and the davidic king will be building the spiritual temple of God

Indeed. Remember, words are meaningless, but it is the Spirit which gives life. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And Jesus said, "My Father is greater than I."

Again, the assumptions of the teachings of men, Olive trees represents different things to different interpreters, so builders are just another office of many, performed by others. Just like Elijah represents one witness..one of the olive trees, prophet/messenger in the latter/end days to warn the people. Nevertheless, Elijah has always represented himself and needs no substituted name as Joshua...read the Word! If Joshua had suppose to have been Elijah, all of the men knew well his name by Zechariah's days. They would have known him to be Elijah/not Joshua as that other witness. This is because it didn't represent that one witness (prophet/messenger/Elijah) but the one witness (Prince/priest/Enoch, still hidden because God took him) who they did not recognize because he was hidden from their understanding.

So, like Jesus, he who is both king and Priest in one.. so is Joshua/Zerubbabel one man named in two representations, Prince and priest in one. Just like two names for one man.... Jacob/Israel, is.. Israel. So Josuah/Zerubbabel, is.. Zerubbabel!!

One witness to come forth in the end days is Elijah. The Word makes that plan, but all will see him and his anointing, the other is hidden, the prince/priest.

I got to go, and to stop this nonsense for good, with you.

I hope you're happy now..a bear or a lion will probably eat me tomorrow, now that I got to bed so late!!

Elijah is "surnamed" messiah ben Joseph and will gather the lost 10 tribes and go to Jerusalem before being killed by armilius. He will lay there until messiah ben David raises him back to life. This is how the Jews will know who messiah ben David is. Elijah is sent "BEFORE" the great and terrible day of the Lord but after he dies and comes back to life he is still a priest but now he is Joshua as his filthy clothes have been removed when he was in heaven for those 40/45 days before messiah ben David raises him back to life..more than likely messiah ben joseph will die on a passover and messiah ben david will raise him back to life 40 to 45 days later on Pentecost.....and messiah ben david will raise him back to life because the scriptures have to be fulfilled "I will give my 2 witnesses power for 1260 days" before they both die in the street and then raise again 3.5 days later



Last Edited by waterman on 05/24/2014 12:07 PM

Consider the prophecy concerning Zerubbabel, John, and the Two witnesses.

"shadow"fax the lord of all horses









The king thought he was alone:



Last Edited by waterman on 05/25/2014 10:30 AM

Our Sacred Sages had a tradition that in the beginning [of the End Times] there would arise a Messiah [i.e. Anointed Saviour] from the house of Joseph who will reign over the Ten Tribes. He will wage wars and all of Israel will be gathered together under his banner. This will continue until later on, a descendant of David will appear and he will reign over them....
A transformation will take place. The Ten Tribes and the stick of Joseph will draw themselves closer unto the stick of Judah, and this too, will be through the agency of a Prophet and by miracles.
The Commentary of "Malbim" on Ezekiel 37:15


The story of Joseph in the Bible is an historical account of what really did happen to Joseph, the ancestor of people in Britain and America, as well as other areas. The story of Joseph, in addition to being an historical account of what happened to a particular person named Joseph, is also symbolic of what will happen to his descendants. In Rabbinical tradition we have the concept of the “Mashiach ben Yoseph” (Messiah, son of Joseph), who will be a DESCENDANT OF JOSEPH. “Mashiach ben Yoseph” also represents the actions of the descendants of Joseph in the Last Days and the times leading up to these last days. In Jewish tradition there will be two Messiahs: “Mashiach ben Yoseph” (Messiah, son of Joseph), and “Mashiach ben David” (Messiah, son of David).

The Two Messiahs

The concept of the Messiah is derived from the definition of “Mashiach.” “Mashiach” means “anointed one” in Hebrew. A person could be anointed in order to be consecrated for a special purpose. For instance, in times of war a special priest was “anointed” to declare before the Israelite soldiers their God-ordained duty to fight bravely (Deuteronomy 19;2-4). The kings were ALSO anointed. The idea of an anointed savior, of a “Mashiah” i.e. Messiah, is contained in the Prophets. The “Messiah” was to be descended from King David. He was to be the “Messiah, son of David.” In addition to the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID, a tradition existed that there would also be a “Messiah, son of Joseph” who would come shortly before the “Messiah, son of David.” The MESSIAH, SON OF JOSEPH was to be a descendant of Joseph, from the Tribe of Ephraim. According to the Biblical Commentary known as the Malbim (1809-1879), the MESSIAH, SON OF JOSEPH, was to head the Lost Ten Tribes in the latter days in the period leading up to the return of the Lost Ten Tribes and their eventual re-unification with Judah. The full name of the MALBIM was Meir Leib ben Yechiel Michael [Weiser], but he is called “MALBIM” for short. He lived in 1809-1879 CE. The Malbim comments on Ezekiel 37:
THE WORD OF THE LORD CAME AGAIN UNTO ME, SAYING, MOREOVER, THOU SON OF MAN, TAKE THEE ONE STICK, AND WRITE UPON IT, FOR JUDAH, AND FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL HIS COMPANIONS:

THEN TAKE ANOTHER STICK, AND WRITE UPON IT, FOR JOSEPH, THE STICK OF EPHRAIM AND FOR ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL HIS COMPANIONS:

AND JOIN THEM ONE TO ANOTHER INTO ONE STICK; AND THEY SHALL BECOME ONE IN THINE HAND.


AND WHEN THE CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEE, SAYING, WILT THOU NOT SHEW US WHAT THOU MEANEST BY THESE? SAY UNTO THEM, THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD;

BEHOLD, I WILL TAKE THE STICK OF JOSEPH, WHICH IS IN THE HAND OF EPHRAIM, AND THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL HIS FELLOWS, AND WILL PUT THEM WITH HIM, EVEN WITH THE STICK OF JUDAH, AND MAKE THEM ONE STICK, AND THEY SHALL BE ONE IN MINE HAND. AND THE STICKS WHEREON THOU WRITEST SHALL BE IN THINE HAND BEFORE THEIR EYES.

AND SAY UNTO THEM, THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD; BEHOLD, I WILL TAKE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FROM AMONG THE HEATHEN, WHITHER THEY BE GONE, AND WILL GATHER THEM ON EVERY SIDE, AND BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND: AND I WILL MAKE THEM ONE NATION IN THE LAND UPON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL; AND ONE KING SHALL BE KING TO THEM ALL:

AND THEY SHALL BE NO MORE TWO NATIONS, NEITHER SHALL THEY BE DIVIDED INTO TWO KINGDOMS ANY MORE AT ALL. NEITHER SHALL THEY DEFILE THEMSELVES ANY MORE WITH THEIR IDOLS, NOR WITH THEIR DETESTABLE THINGS, NOR WITH ANY OF THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS:

BUT I WILL SAVE THEM OUT OF ALL THEIR DWELLING PLACES, WHEREIN THEY HAVE SINNED, AND WILL CLEANSE THEM: SO SHALL THEY BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD. AND DAVID MY SERVANT SHALL BE KING OVER THEM; AND THEY ALL SHALL HAVE ONE SHEPHERD:

THEY SHALL ALSO WALK IN MY JUDGMENTS, AND OBSERVE MY STATUTES, AND DO THEM. AND THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE LAND THAT I HAVE GIVEN UNTO JACOB MY SERVANT, WHEREIN YOUR FATHERS HAVE DWELT; AND THEY SHALL DWELL THEREIN, EVEN THEY, AND THEIR CHILDREN, AND THEIR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN FOR EVER:

AND MY SERVANT DAVID SHALL BE THEIR PRINCE FOR EVER. MOREOVER I WILL MAKE A COVENANT OF PEACE WITH THEM; IT SHALL BE AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH THEM: AND I WILL PLACE THEM, AND MULTIPLY THEM, AND WILL SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM:

YEA, I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. AND THE HEATHEN SHALL KNOW THAT I THE LORD DO SANCTIFY ISRAEL, WHEN MY SANCTUARY SHALL BE IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE.

[Ezekiel chapter 37: 15-28]
The Malbim explained the above verses that we have just read from the 37th chapter of Ezekiel in the following manner: [Ezekiel 37;15] "He [the Prophet] was commanded to take one stick and to write upon it, these words, ~FOR JUDAH AND FOR THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, HIS COMPANIONS~; [this stick] represented Judah and those [others] joined unto him from the Children of Israel, such as the Tribe of Benjamin, and the Sons of Levi, and the rest of the people who had attached themselves to Judah.

[And he goes on in Ezekiel] "~And he took another stick, and he wrote upon it, these words: ~FOR JOSEPH, THE STICK OF EPHRAIM, AND FOR ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, HIS COMPANIONS~; [this stick] represents Joseph who was the source of the tribe [of Ephraim]. From Joseph developed the Kingdom of Ephraim, which began with Jeroboam, and therefore [the stick of Joseph] is [also] termed , ~THE STICK OF EPHRAIM.

Ezekiel says: ~AND ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL~, for unto him [unto Joseph] were joined all of Israel which belong to the Ten Tribes... Our Sacred Sages had a tradition that in the beginning (of the End Times) would arise a Messiah, [i.e. Anointed Saviour], from the house of Joseph who will reign over the Ten Tribes. He will wage wars and all of Israel will be gathered together under his banner. [This will continue] until a descendant of David later appears and he will reign over them... [over all the tribes].

The Malbim continues: "A transformation will take place. The Ten Tribes and the stick of Joseph will draw themselves closer unto the stick of Judah, and this too, will be through the agency of a Prophet and by miracles".

The MALBIM connects the Prophecy in Ezekiel 37 with that in the Book of Micah chapter 5. The fifth chapter of Micah was explained in the historical sections of our work “The Tribes” by Yair Davidiy (first edition 1993, second edition 1999). The fifth chapter of Micah was seen to describe the union of King Josiah ben Amon of Judah with the Israelite-Scythian rulers of the Middle East at that time. The Scythians were actually the sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons of Israelites exiled to Assyria and elsewhere in the Assyrian Empire. The Assyrians had settled the exiled Israelites in border areas and had also absorbed segments of them into the armed forces. The Kingdom of Assyria was attacked by outsiders and also suffered from the rebellions of peoples it had conquered. The Empire of Assyria became weakened so many of the peoples within the Assyrian Empire began to assert their independence. Part of the Israelite Exiles also asserted their independence in their places of Exile. The Israelite exiles had joined up with other groups. The Israelite Exiles can be identified as part of a confederation of peoples known as the Cimmerians. From the Cimmerians the Scythians and Goths emerged. The Scythians and Goths, who emerged from the Cimmerians, were also Israelites or at least Israelites were an important major element amongst them. The Assyrians made terms with the Scythians and attempted to use the Scythians against the enemies of Assyria. The Scythians became the protectors of Assyria. From being protectors of Assyria the Scythians progressed to take control of most of the Assyrian they Empire. The Scythians then attempted to join forces with the Kingdom of Judah and assisted King Josiah ben Amon of Judah against his enemies. King Josiah of Judah in turn assisted the Scythians. King Josiah of Judah made an attempt to resettle some of the Scythians in and around Beth-Shean in the former territory of Menasseh, in the northern part of Israel. This attempt was not successful. Eventually the Assyrians attempted to re-assert themselves and there were wars and changes of alliances. King Josiah of Judah lost his life fighting on behalf of the Scythians. At all events, the Scythians then fought against the Assyrians and they played the main role in destroying the Empire of Assyria. The Scythians destroyed Assyria. The main allies of the Scythians were the Medes and Babylonians. The Medes and Babylonians betrayed the Scythians and drove the Scythians northward into Southern Russia. From Southern Russia the Scythians later moved by stages to Western Europe. The Prophet Micah in Chapter Five, Talmudic passages, archaeological evidence, and historical accounts all confirm what we have just told you.

[Micah 5:1] NOW GATHER THYSELF IN TROOPS, O DAUGHTER OF TROOPS: HE HATH LAID SIEGE AGAINST US: THEY SHALL SMITE THE JUDGE OF ISRAEL WITH A ROD UPON THE CHEEK. [Micah 5:2] BUT THOU, BETHLEHEM EPHRATAH, THOUGH THOU BE LITTLE AMONG THE THOUSANDS OF JUDAH, YET OUT OF THEE SHALL HE COME FORTH UNTO ME THAT IS TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING. [Micah 5:3] THEREFORE WILL HE GIVE THEM UP, UNTIL THE TIME THAT SHE WHICH TRAVAILETH HATH BROUGHT FORTH: THEN THE REMNANT OF HIS BRETHREN SHALL RETURN UNTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.

The above verses speak of a King from the House of David who came out of Beth-Lehem. He shall rule over some of the exiled of Israel who will return. This is what King Josiah did. It is also what the Messiah is destined to do at first.

[Micah 5:4] AND HE SHALL STAND AND FEED IN THE STRENGTH OF THE LORD, IN THE MAJESTY OF THE NAME OF THE LORD HIS GOD; AND THEY SHALL ABIDE: FOR NOW SHALL HE BE GREAT UNTO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH. [Micah 5:5] AND THIS MAN SHALL BE THE PEACE, WHEN THE ASSYRIAN SHALL COME INTO OUR LAND: AND WHEN HE SHALL TREAD IN OUR PALACES, THEN SHALL WE RAISE AGAINST HIM SEVEN SHEPHERDS, AND EIGHT PRINCIPAL MEN.

The Assyrians had entered the Lands of Israel and Judah in the past and they had trodden down the cities and palaces of Israel. The Israelite Scythians after being exiled became at first allies and protectors of Assyria. They were “SHEPHERDS”, or protectors, as Micah says, then they became the main rulers (“EIGHT PRINCIPAL MEN”) just as Micah describes the Israelites as doing.

[Micah 5:6] AND THEY [i.e. the Israelites] SHALL WASTE THE LAND OF ASSYRIA WITH THE SWORD, AND THE LAND OF NIMROD IN THE ENTRANCES THEREOF: THUS SHALL HE DELIVER US FROM THE ASSYRIAN, WHEN HE COMETH INTO OUR LAND, AND WHEN HE TREADETH WITHIN OUR BORDERS.

They shall destroy the land of Assyria. The Israelites will destroy Assyria just as the Assyrians had formerly destroyed the Land of Israel. This is what the Israelite-Scythians did. They destroyed Assyria.

[Micah 5:7] AND THE REMNANT OF JACOB SHALL BE IN THE MIDST OF MANY PEOPLE AS A DEW FROM THE LORD, AS THE SHOWERS UPON THE GRASS, THAT TARRIETH NOT FOR MAN, NOR WAITETH FOR THE SONS OF MEN. [Micah 5:8] AND THE REMNANT OF JACOB SHALL BE AMONG THE GENTILES IN THE MIDST OF MANY PEOPLE AS A LION AMONG THE BEASTS OF THE FOREST, AS A YOUNG LION AMONG THE FLOCKS OF SHEEP: WHO, IF HE GO THROUGH, BOTH TREADETH DOWN, AND TEARETH IN PIECES, AND NONE CAN DELIVER.

The Scythians after taking over the Assyrian Empire ruled over the Middle East and spread terror of their name everywhere just like the “British Lion” was later to do.

[Micah 5:9] THINE HAND SHALL BE LIFTED UP UPON THINE ADVERSARIES, AND ALL THINE ENEMIES SHALL BE CUT OFF.

What we have just described is the historical context of the fifth chapter of Micah. Nevertheless, in our book “The Tribes” we emphasized that the major intention of Chapter Five of The Book of Micah, was for the Messianic period. This Chapter Five of Micah may be considered to incidentally describe events concerning the temporary Judaean and Israelite (Scythian) re-union that once took place. These historical events were a kind of partial forerunner or prototypical model of the re-union that will take place in the future. The future re-union is yet to happen but it will occur in the Messianic Era or in the period leading up to it. The MALBIM in his commentary on this Fifth Chapter of Micah intended to also throw additional light on Chapter 37 in Ezekiel. The Malbim considered chapter five of Micah and Chapter 37 of Ezekiel as talking about the same events. A few extracts from the Commentary of the Malbim on chapter five of Micah helps us understand his Commentary on Chapter 37 of Ezekiel. The Malbim says on:

MALBIM on Micah 5;1: ".....It has already been clarified in Ezekiel 37, that in the End Time, the Ten Tribes will be the first to arouse themselves and over them will reign the Messiah [i.e. Anointed Saviour] Descendant of Joseph and they will accomplish great things.

"The Tribe of Judah who are scattered amongst the nations [and are] weakly and few will attach themselves [unto the Ten Tribes]. They [i.e. the Tribe of Judah, the Jews] will be of secondary importance [at first] in the kingdom of the Anointed Descendant of Joseph. [This will continue] until later there will arise the Anointed Descendant of David in the Might of The LORD. At that time they will all [both Joseph and Judah] accept upon themselves the Kingship of the House of David. Then wars will cease for the Gentiles will request [guidance from] him [i.e. from the Messiah]...

"He [the Prophet Micah] wants to describe the situation that will exist as long as the general ingathering will not be completed and all of the Exiled of Judah will still not be gathered together in the Land of Israel: Then, all that time, the House of Israel [meaning the Ten Tribes and the Anointed Descendant of Joseph who belongs to them] will be the principal party. They will be the warriors and the rulers. The House of Judah will be secondary [in importance] unto them. This was explained in Ezekiel [37;19]
“BEHOLD , I WILL TAKE THE STICK OF JOSEPH…“I WILL TAKE THE STICK OF JOSEPH…AND I WILL PUT UPON HIM THE STICK OF JUDAH”, i.e. the Malbim understands the verse to say that the stick of Judah will be put on the stick of Joseph. The Malbim understands this to mean that Judah will be secondary to Joseph.

The KJ version of this verse (Ezekiel 37;19) that the Malbim is referring to has it translated as:

"[Ezekiel 37:19] SAY UNTO THEM, THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD; BEHOLD, I WILL TAKE THE STICK OF JOSEPH, WHICH IS IN THE HAND OF EPHRAIM, AND THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL HIS FELLOWS, AND WILL PUT THEM WITH HIM, EVEN WITH THE STICK OF JUDAH, AND MAKE THEM ONE STICK, AND THEY SHALL BE ONE IN MINE HAND.

The King James seems to understand that the stick of Joseph will be put with the stick of Judah and not that the stick of Judah will be put with Joseph. This is just the opposite of how the Malbim understands the verse. In the original Hebrew the verse could be understood either way. At all events, The MALBIM understands the Hebrew as saying that Judah will be put on (attached to) Joseph (and therefore will be at first of secondary "attache"status importance to Joseph. In Genesis chapter 44 it is related how the brothers sold Joseph. Joseph later had become the virtual ruler of Egypt. Meanwhile the Land of Canaan like the Land of Egypt was stricken with famine. The brothers of Joseph went up to Egypt to buy grain. Joseph recognized his brothers but the brothers of Joseph did not recognize him. Joseph forced his brothers to go back to Canaan and eventually return accompanied by Benjamin the younger brother of Joseph by the same mother. Joseph then framed Benjamin and made Benjamin look like a thief. Joseph threatened to keep Benjamin as a slave. Judah stepped forward and approached Joseph and pleaded on behalf of Benjamin. Judah offered to serve as a slave instead of Benjamin. The Commentators say that because Judah took responsibility for Benjamin Judah merited to be given Messianic responsibility as part of his Tribal Destiny. From Judah emerges the House of David and the future Messiah. Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the Lubavitcher (Chabad) Rabbi, made the following observations on the action of Judah (Genesis: VaYigash). Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was considered inspired by his followers and by many others. The relevant verse says:

[GENESIS 44:18] THEN JUDAH CAME NEAR UNTO HIM, AND SAID, OH MY LORD, LET THY SERVANT, I PRAY THEE, SPEAK A WORD IN MY LORD'S EARS, AND LET NOT THINE ANGER BURN AGAINST THY SERVANT: FOR THOU ART EVEN AS PHARAOH.

Commentary: On the verse: “FOR THOU ART EVEN AS PHARAOH”: Rabbi Schneerson quotes the source saying that Judah meant to say that Joseph is as powerful as Pharaoh and that Judah acknowledges his authority. Judah acknowledged the authority of Joseph. Because of this Judah merited the Promise in Ezekiel 37, “MY SERVANT DAVID SHALL BE THEIR PRINCE FOR EVER”. The Rabbi says that in order for Judah to bring on the Messiah, to help the Messiah come, and realize the promise given to his seed (“MY SERVANT DAVID SHALL BE THEIR PRINCE FOR EVER”) Judah must first do as the Patriarch Judah did when he CAME NEAR UNTO Joseph and he acknowledged the authority of Joseph and initially was influenced from Joseph.

The Rabbi then went on to mention how the USA is a merciful state that does kindness and enables the Jews to practice their religion and has good principles. He used the term “Chesed” meaning kindness. The USA does “Chesed”, kindness. The Kings of the Ten Tribes Kingdom of northern Israel before their exile were also described as “merciful kings”, kings of “chesed”, Kings who do kindness (1-Kings 20;31).

Regarding the future Messiah son of Joseph: The traditional Aramaic Translation of the Prophets (Targum Yehonathan on Exodus 40:11) says the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is descended from Joshua the son of Nun from the Tribe of Ephraim. Other sources say that the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is a descendant of Jeroboam the son of Nebath (Zohar Chadash, Balak 56b). Jeroboam had led the northern Ten Tribes when they rebelled against the House of David and broke away and formed their own kingdom of Israel (1-Kings chapter 12). All the Israelites in the separate kingdom of Israel were later exiled by the Assyrians and became the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH who is the descendant of Jeroboam will bring about the re-unification of the Lost Ten Tribes (Joseph) with Judah. He will therefore rectify the sin of his ancestor by re-uniting with Judah. He will make good what his forefather had done wrong. We too if we want to, and try hard, can make good what our fathers and forefathers and we ourselves have done wrong in the past. We can build a better future for the sake of our peoples and for the sake of our children and their children after them. This is our duty.

The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH in Jewish Tradition in later generations was taken to be a symbolic figure. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH was understood to represent an historical process in which the Jewish people would return to their land and rebuild themselves by natural means. Later the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID would appear and impart a spiritual dimension to the physical-material political structure that the process represented by the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH had prepared. This does not nullify the belief that the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is to be a real person. It merely supplements it. It adds to it. It helps us understand it. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH was to appear before the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID. In some sources the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is called “The First Redeemer.” The “Second Redeemer” will be the Messiah son of David.

The Messiah son of Joseph will be the leader of the Lost Ten Tribes. He will be descended from Joseph. In a sense The Messiah son of Joseph may be understood to represent Joseph and the Lost Ten Tribes, as a collective body. By considering some of the deeds and actions of The Messiah son of Joseph we can gain further evidence as to who the descendants of Joseph are today. Some points concerning the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH that are to be found in the book “Kol HaTor” (“The Voice of the Turtledove” in Hebrew). This book is a collection of the sayings of a great and famous Rabbi (Eliyahu of Vilna) and his followers in the eighteenth century. The book deals with the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. Rabbi Elyahu of Vilna is considered to have been one of the greatest Rabbis of all time. The ideas in this book “Kol HaTor” are all based on Biblical or related sources. Similar to Cyrus king of Persia “Kol HaTor” says [1.6.1] The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is similar to Cyrus the Persian Monarch who encouraged the Jews to return from the Babylonian Exile and rebuild the Temple. Cyrus, the King of Persia, in some respects may be considered a forerunner (or prototype) of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. Verses associated with Cyrus (Isaiah 42) are actually to a degree applicable to the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH will be revealed little by little.

The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH in some sources is referred to as the “Messiah son [descendant] of Ephraim.” The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is associated with the saving of lives and the rescue of Israelites and in this he is assisted by Judah and by the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID. By way of Comment: The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH, as we have seen, is connected with the ingathering of the exiles. America and Britain both in their own way in the past did helped the ingathering of the exiles of Judah to the Land of Israel. Our Prayers Are Needed “Kol HaTor” says [1.24] “With our deeds and prayers we shall come to the aid of MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. Through our exertions with all our might of self-arousal [arousal from below as distinct from arousal from heaven] we will achieve the union of the two messiahs, the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH and the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID, ‘the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah’ [mentioned by Ezekiel 37]. [The two sticks will join together just as Judah and Joseph will join together].

[In Ezekiel 37:16, Ezekiel was told to take one stick, FOR JUDAH. Ezekeil was then told to take ANOTHER STICK, FOR JOSEPH. Ezekiel was told in Ezekiel 37:17 to join the two sticks together. THEY SHALL BECOME ONE IN THINE HAND. The two sticks (representing Judah and Joseph) were to first become one in the hand of Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 37:19 God says that the two sticks SHALL BE ONE IN MINE HAND.] [Ezekiel says that] First the two sticks will become one in your hands and afterwards they will be one in my [God’s] hand.” [i.e. This means that: First Judah and Joseph should try to join together from below and afterwards God will help them from above]. On the same theme: “Kol HaTor” emphasizes The Two Sticks (representing Judah and Joseph) Must be Joined Together Through Our Initiative! [2.101] Ezekiel (37) speaks of the stick of Joseph [and Judah and the union of Judah with Joseph]. This concerns the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. The Redemption is dependent on the union of the two sticks, the stick of Joseph with the stick of Judah. These are the two Messiahs, the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH and the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID. [It says: “Join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in your hand” (Ezekiel 37;17)].

At first the union [of Judah with Joseph] comes about through arousal from below by way of nature [through our actions] as it says, “Join them one to another into one stick.” And afterwards [the re-union is confirmed] in a miraculous manner, [through the hand of God, as it says in Ezekiel “they shall become on in Your hand” meaning they shall become re-united in the hand of God! Comes From the North “Kol HaTor” says [2.11] “His glory is like the firstborn of his bull” (Deuteronomy 33;17). The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH comes from the north side and will be aroused by himself. “Kol HaTor” says [2.17] The guardian angel of Esau will be pulled down by the guardian angel of Joseph (This is also spoken about in the Biblical Book of Obadiah. We will discuss this subject and the Book of Obadiah. Expands Borders of Israel, Wars Against Amalek “Kol HaTor” says [2.36] “Enlarge the place of your tent and let them stretch forth the curtains of your habitations...” (Isaiah 54;2). The commandment to expand the borders [of Israel] is part of the task of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH has the duty of waging war against Amalek and of expanding the borders of Israel and of protecting Israel from destruction.

Ingathers the Exiles “Kol HaTor” says [2.40] “His [i.e. Joseph’s] bow abode in strength” (Genesis 49;24). This should be an important principle for us. We have to stand obstinately strong in the holy work of gathering in the exiles which is the task of the first redeemer [i.e. of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH]. Purifies the Land of Israel “Kol HaTor” says [2.41] “And Joseph was governor over the land” (Genesis 42;6). This means he will overcome all the forces of impurity. This is one of the great tasks of the First Redeemer [of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH]: to extirpate the spirit of impurity from the country by means of settling the Holy Land. When the Holy Land is not settled [with Israelites] a spirit of impurity settles over it. [When the Holy Land is settled with Israelites the Land becomes pure]. Joshua ben Nun Was a Forerunner “Kol HaTor” says [2.44]



“Kol HaTor” says [2.75] The Messiah Son of Joseph arouses not only Israel but also the Peoples of the World to Repent. Jonah the Prophet had the aspect of MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH in his generation. His task is, “to rebuke many nations” (Isaiah 2). Turns Defeat Into Victory “Kol HaTor” says [2.91] The characteristic of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is that out of tribulation he brings salvation. The Heavenly Ladder “Kol HaTor” says [2.97] A ladder on the ground and its head reaching to heaven (Genesis 28). This is an aspect of Joseph as is known. What happened to Jacob happened to Joseph. All of his deeds were an arousal from below with an accompanying assistance from heaven. Joseph was the son of Jacob and Rachel and had the characteristics of both Jacob and Rachel. Ingathers Exiles, Rebuilds Jerusalem, Settles the Wilderness “Kol HaTor” says [2.117] The rulership of Joseph overcomes all impurity.

The task of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is to remove the spirit of impurity from the Land through the ingathering of exiles, rebuilding Jerusalem, and the planting of the wilderness. Ransoming Captives “Kol HaTor” says [2.118] “And the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion” (Isaiah 35;10): The task of ransoming captives belongs to the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH who performs it by ingathering the Exiles…The Major Ingathering of the Exiles cannot be less than 600,000…They will come with rejoicing and happiness. Comment: “Kol HaTor” says The Major Ingathering of Exiles cannot be less than 600,000. 600,000 was taken to be a key number. It is interesting to note that when Israel declared its Independence in 1948 the total Jewish population in the Land at that time was a bit more than 600,000 which was the key number mentioned by “Kol HaTor” about two hundred years beforehand. Reveals Secrets of the Torah “Kol HaTor” says [122] “And Pharoah called Joseph’s name Zaphenat Paneah” [i.e. Uncover of Secrets] (Genesis 41;45). One of the tasks of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH in each generation is to reveal the secrets of the Torah. Horns of a Unicorn “Kol HaTor” says [131] “His horns are the horns of a unicorn with which he strikes the peoples” (Deuteronomy 33). The main task of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is the everlasting war against Amalek. Comment: The horns of a unicorn are linked with the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH.





Last Edited by waterman on 05/25/2014 12:45 PM

THE HIGH PRIEST ANOINTED FOR WAR


A subject not mentioned in most Bible studies, is that of the "second High Priest," who was called the (High) Priest Anointed for War. Scripture only gives a brief non-specific mention to this person and his role:

Deuteronomy 20:1-3: When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people, And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them.

This High Priest did not serve in the Tabernacle/Temple as did the High Priest we read much more about in the Tenakh. Rather, his assignment centered around the caring and preparedness of the men going to battle -- to assure they were prepared physically and spiritually, even sending home those he deemed unfit to fight.

The first Priest anointed for war that we find mention of, was Phineas, the grandson of Aaron:

Midrash Rabbah - Leviticus XX:2 - Elisheba the daughter of Amminadab did not enjoy happiness in the world. True, she witnessed five crowns [attained by her relatives] in one day: her brother-in-law was a king, her brother was a prince, her husband was High Priest, her two sons were both Deputy High Priests, Phinehas her grandson was a Priest anointed for war.

Talmud - Mas. Sotah 43a - Thus it states: And Moses sent them, a thousand of every tribe, to the war, them and Phinehas* — ‘them’ refers to the Sanhedrin; ‘Phinehas’ was the [priest] Anointed for Battle;

* Num. XXXI, 6.

Elsewhere in Midrash Rabbah (below) we find reference to the same person, this time called, "the War Messiah." What is interesting here is the footnote, which links the Priest Anointed for War to the coming Messiah.



* Lit.,the priest anointed for war’, an expression originally applied to the priest who accompanied the troops. Cf. Suk. 52a, where instead of ' War Messiah ' we have ' Messiah son of Joseph’. The two are probably identical, Messiah the son of Joseph being regarded as the forerunner of the Messiah during the wars that will precede his advent.

The grouping of Elijah, the Messiah, Melchizedek, and the War Messiah together (in the above section), is also interesting as the last three are linked to Yeshua, who was and again will be preceded by Elijah the prophet.

There are distinctions made in Talmud between the two High Priests. As might be expected, the Temple High Priest is given a higher "rank" than his counterpart. However the following section of the Talmud, shows distinctions drawn between the Deputy Temple High Priest and the High Priest Anointed for War, with the former taking precendent regarding issues of defilement, but the latter's life being considered more important (if one had to choose between the two of them) as he has a responsibility to many people:

Talmud - Mas. Nazir 47b - The question was propounded: As between [the High Priest] anointed for a war, and the deputy [High Priest], which is of superior sanctity? Does the [High Priest] anointed for war take precedence, because he is qualified to go to war, or does the deputy take precedence, because he is qualified to perform the Temple service?* — Come and hear: For it has been taught: The only difference between a [High Priest] anointed for war and a deputy is that if they were both walking by the way and encountered a meth mizwah, the [High Priest] anointed for war is to defile himself, but not the deputy. But has it not been taught: A [High Priest] anointed for war takes precedence of a deputy? — Mar Zutra replied: As far as saving his life is concerned, the [High Priest] anointed for war has a superior claim for many [people] depend upon him, but as regards defilement, the deputy is of superior sanctity, as has been taught: R. Hanina b. Antigonus said that the reason the office of deputy to the High Priest was created, was that should any disqualification happen to him [the High Priest], he can enter and minister in his stead.

* But once a priest had been anointed for war, he could no longer take part in the Temple service.












This is why we see Joshua the high priest(one of the 2 anointed witnesses) in heaven getting his dirty garments taken away because elijah(messiah ben joseph) is the war messiah anointed for war but can't serve as Temple High Priest service because of it therefore Elijah is killed by armillius and lays dead for 40/45 days and is in heaven as described in zechariah 3:

Zechariah 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.





Then messiah ben David raises messiah ben joseph from the dead and messiah ben joseph has clean garments so to be able to serve as High Priest!

Show me "YOUR" Glory!

Favorite one:

24 elders:

de·file 1 (dĭ-fīl′)
tr.v. de·filed, de·fil·ing, de·files
1. To make filthy or dirty; pollute: defile a river with sewage.
2. To debase the pureness or excellence of; corrupt: a country landscape that was defiled by urban sprawl.
3. To profane or sully (a reputation, for example).
4. To make unclean or unfit for ceremonial use; desecrate: defile a temple.
5. To violate the chastity of.



However the following section of the Talmud, shows distinctions drawn between the Deputy Temple High Priest and the High Priest Anointed for War, with the former taking precendent regarding issues of defilement,

Zechariah 3:3:

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.


Can you see yet 227 the high priest(prince of priests) is Elijah(messiah ben Joseph/Joshua)?....If not...you will in the end!




Last Edited by waterman on 05/26/2014 10:58 AM

227 you still have some memorial day to enjoy...don't spend it indoors all day

God Bless!

and get better....I know you will....just not right now






be back later

I didn't know you meant you was going to erase my longer post. I believe It was relevant to the earlier subjects, Cyrus, two witnesses, and the tribes. I thought you meant you was going to erase these last 5 or 6 post. I thought the longer post had some very strong points in its contention regarding the position of one of the witness. Oh I see, maybe a little stronger argument than you liked...lol.

I guess I failed to see the relavace of your post as it basically said.....you dont believe what the sages have to say and that I dont love my mother....so yeah that one got over ruled

227 you learn the hard way everytime:

[In Ezekiel 37:16, Ezekiel was told to take one stick, FOR JUDAH. Ezekeil was then told to take ANOTHER STICK, FOR JOSEPH. Ezekiel was told in Ezekiel 37:17 to join the two sticks together. THEY SHALL BECOME ONE IN THINE HAND. The two sticks (representing Judah and Joseph) were to first become one in the hand of Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 37:19 God says that the two sticks SHALL BE ONE IN MINE HAND.] [Ezekiel says that] First the two sticks will become one in your hands and afterwards they will be one in my [God’s] hand.” [i.e. This means that: First Judah and Joseph should try to join together from below and afterwards God will help them from above].


227 you learn the hard way everytime:




Last Edited by waterman on 05/26/2014 05:55 PM

"You Learn the hard way everytime:"

First of all to learn something requires a teacher. Even more so a very good teacher. Waterman I consider you to be neither. Although you will never acknowledge it.. much of your time line period, and explanations of certain mysteries in the Word, were taught you through me, not vice versa. I know you claim only 5 per cent. That's like asking a millionaire that stole most of your millions how much he stole.. and he says 5 dollars...lol. No waterman, I have received my tutorledge from a more qualified source, and His grace.

Stop adding your own meaning of what is being said in these verses. I could say anything to seek to prove my misconception, but it would not make it the correct interpretation. These passages are simply revealing the gathering of the tribes, for the end days. The tribes of Israel, as it states in the verse, "tribes of Israel", if read in completion [Ezek37:16-17kjv.] It's about the tribes, not the two witnesses.

you are going to be surprised in the end

You just dont recognize the relationship joseph and judah had before joseph became who he knew he would become

Joseph becomes no greater or lesser than his fellows. For the least in service toward his Lord is equal to Joseph's greatest, if that servant stands in the position that was assigned to him, and was faithful in that calling. Joseph was proud at the concept of the promise, but afterwards in his captivity he will simply be at the right place at the right time for God to use him, just as the other witness.. I am done reading this thread. You just bring me into the same spiral of nonsense, with your claims that are proved wrong over and over, but you refuse to see what the Word is actually saying. I have better things to occupy my time.. Go subterfuge those who will listen to your gospel of the witness.