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The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.

 
Shinto Trainee
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The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
This idea is essentially untranslatable into English by dictionary tools. I tried hard but they don't grasp the subtle sense of multiple resonnance among separate things.

We can approach understanding through analogy, however. You see into a dictionary, it is telling you kokorois mean Is "pure heart" or similar misunderstanding. The arrow flies wide of the mark. It is like defining that a hat is an umbrella because they both keep the rain off. Essence of definition is lost easily.

Let us to define the subtle sense of Kokoro with analogy regarding resonnance. (interestingly, analogy itself also works by reasonnance. But irrelevant to our main issue at hand).

Then, The Analogy: A great post stands on a mountain and feels the power of nature, the mononoaware or "Primal awe." He is touched deeply, and writes a masterwork of poetry, inspired.

The western view is like "Genius poet was inspired by nature to create this masterwork of poetry."

The Shinto view of what happened is a little different. The poet, the natural scene, and the words of the language each have their own separate kokoros. When the primal awe is felt, this is the triple resonance of the three Kokoros: the Kokoro of the poet, the Kokoro of nature, and the Kokoro inherent in language itself. ("in the beginning their was the Word... Sound familiar? Shinto doctrine sees language itself as dynamic and charged with inherent spiritual power). The three resonate. Perfectly and the masterpiece of poetry emerges as the fruit of this triple resonance.

The awe is powerful; hair on arms stands up. But all credit cannot go to the author: it was the triple interaction of the three seperate, aforementioned Kokoros that wrote it. Not the man alone. The poem is a living being born of intense meshwork of three separate Kokoros reasonatng beautifully in a single thought-moment.

There is overlap, but also separateness. The post could not have written the poem without the natural world that inspired, or without the language to express. So the author is not the only author: All three are "authors" equally. Not putting person as "lone genius" in Weatwrn sense. He is only one-third of equation. He need the owed of language and the experience of being where he was.

On the largest possible level, the entire cosmos is an uncountable large number of separate Kokoros intermeshing at every node to create unfathomable awe through manifold harmony. This is different than the "all is one" mode of Buddhism. Buddhism holostic view is like salt that disaolves in water, while Shinto holistics is more like putting tiny gold flakes into the water: They do not dissolve and merge, they remain separate, but they dance with each other and the light to create endless patterns. Or like different instruments at the orchestra, resonating and vibrating in cosmic awe-generative lattice.

Awe is the "purpose of life" and simultaneous reaonnance of Kokoro from different sources (no "lone geniuses" in Shinto) is the means by which the cosmos generates awe. Why? Why not! Primal Awe is its own answer!
Shinto Trainee (OP)

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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
A simple selfish bump because it took me a long time to write that, you ungreatful bitches. Lol.
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05/02/2013 10:39 PM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
Very interesting. The analogy resonated with me
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05/02/2013 10:43 PM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
Awe is the "purpose of life"
 Quoting: Shinto Trainee


Great write up.
The universe is essentially ecstatic, by one road or another, it will lead to ecstasy.

Last Edited by Cloud Hidden on 05/02/2013 10:44 PM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
I loved your post OP, thank you !
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05/02/2013 10:46 PM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
I thought it was the religion of testing the sharpness of your katana on the necks of POWs. Meh what do I know.
1908247

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thanks a lot!

I practice Ninjutsu and have come across the word, nice to understand better its meaning and the reason why I've used it myself (:
- ? Nus.

-You Hold Witness I Witness

As if he could, by himself, say:
_Alive, therefore life itself.
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
I liked the piece. I'm a christian so not essentially interested in other faiths.
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
Are you Wapanese or Japanese?
Starknight

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05/02/2013 11:24 PM

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Why would you want to translate that into English in the first place. Is it really necessary?
1 John 1–3._ 1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.

@Starknight921
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
Thank you for taking the time to read. Those of you who have me positive messages, I thank you very much. It makes me happy, verycool

I thought it was the religion of testing the sharpness of your katana on the necks of POWs. Meh what do I know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1426055


Every religion has a dark side. I'm sure the Salem Witch burners and cruisaders and 30-year-war solders era got plenty of blloody hands too. But there are also beautiful things too in that religion. A mature mind knows things usually have dark and light sides.

Shinto has a dark side and too and it seems in particular dark because it's worst days are tall in the memory of people who are still alive today. I am not proud of that. But that doesn't mean it tells the whole story of Shinto any more than "Westboro Baptist Church" or Jim Jones is the only side of the Christian story. I am not here to argue or say "I'm right and you are wrong;" under Shinto doctrine it is perfectly OK to be Chriatian and Shinto at same time (but maybe not OK according to chriatian doctrine.)

Actually If you look at history overall, Zen has a lot more bloody hands than Shinro. Zen archery masters and sword masters? What do you think they shooting and cutting? Harmless woodblock or human living flesh? Why they were always saying "no difference between life and death", "to obey without thinking is highesf wcp death an moag spiritual achievement" etc. but there are good thing in this religion too. Nothing ever is ever purely old or purely bad.

But a actually we can See how something beautiful like "kokoro" and the theology of resonnance can be perverted. True Shinto teaches a a kind of "overlap" where every part of cosmos contains every other while also retains its on parts as an indicizual. You can enter Shinto Awe if through almost any gate: a child finds penny on the sidewalk and is delighted; the shape of a cloud or tree that reminds you of mysterious beauty etc. But scholars on branch of Shinto theologies called as "ko-Shinto" later give rise to even darker branch called as "Kokka Shinyo" taught as "we are all automatically share kokoro with emperor because of being"we are divine special nation beause our oldeat ancestors were gods and living emerald is a god ." or, " when we die for the emperor it doesn't matter, it is like a a cell dying in a bigger body (the state, the emperor).

I will answer a few other posts below. Getting
Very sleepy now.
Marxist

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05/03/2013 07:54 AM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
This idea is essentially untranslatable into English by dictionary tools. I tried hard but they don't grasp the subtle sense of multiple resonnance among separate things.

We can approach understanding through analogy, however. You see into a dictionary, it is telling you kokorois mean Is "pure heart" or similar misunderstanding. The arrow flies wide of the mark. It is like defining that a hat is an umbrella because they both keep the rain off. Essence of definition is lost easily.

Let us to define the subtle sense of Kokoro with analogy regarding resonnance. (interestingly, analogy itself also works by reasonnance. But irrelevant to our main issue at hand).

Then, The Analogy: A great post stands on a mountain and feels the power of nature, the mononoaware or "Primal awe." He is touched deeply, and writes a masterwork of poetry, inspired.

The western view is like "Genius poet was inspired by nature to create this masterwork of poetry."

The Shinto view of what happened is a little different. The poet, the natural scene, and the words of the language each have their own separate kokoros. When the primal awe is felt, this is the triple resonance of the three Kokoros: the Kokoro of the poet, the Kokoro of nature, and the Kokoro inherent in language itself. ("in the beginning their was the Word... Sound familiar? Shinto doctrine sees language itself as dynamic and charged with inherent spiritual power). The three resonate. Perfectly and the masterpiece of poetry emerges as the fruit of this triple resonance.

The awe is powerful; hair on arms stands up. But all credit cannot go to the author: it was the triple interaction of the three seperate, aforementioned Kokoros that wrote it. Not the man alone. The poem is a living being born of intense meshwork of three separate Kokoros reasonatng beautifully in a single thought-moment.

There is overlap, but also separateness. The post could not have written the poem without the natural world that inspired, or without the language to express. So the author is not the only author: All three are "authors" equally. Not putting person as "lone genius" in Weatwrn sense. He is only one-third of equation. He need the owed of language and the experience of being where he was.

On the largest possible level, the entire cosmos is an uncountable large number of separate Kokoros intermeshing at every node to create unfathomable awe through manifold harmony. This is different than the "all is one" mode of Buddhism. Buddhism holostic view is like salt that disaolves in water, while Shinto holistics is more like putting tiny gold flakes into the water: They do not dissolve and merge, they remain separate, but they dance with each other and the light to create endless patterns. Or like different instruments at the orchestra, resonating and vibrating in cosmic awe-generative lattice.

Awe is the "purpose of life" and simultaneous reaonnance of Kokoro from different sources (no "lone geniuses" in Shinto) is the means by which the cosmos generates awe. Why? Why not! Primal Awe is its own answer!
 Quoting: Shinto Trainee


Fuck. So you reckon they chuck sum of dat korokoro into Japanese exports?
Workers of the World, Unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains!
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05/03/2013 08:52 AM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
Forgot to log In for my last post  which came as anon coward.  But it was me. Sorry.


Are you Wapanese or Japanese?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39238684


I had to use the  internet slang dictionqry for "waponeae." lol. But that Is kind of harsh. It's interesting to be interesed in " the other" so why be so harsh on them?. it's natural. But I guess it gets funny when taken to extremes. There are Japan housewives who put on lace high collars a ams have  a "proper English afternoon tea" and they look like idiots and get laughed at. And manga/anmie geeks are also kind of sad and get laughed at too, foreigners or Japanese here as well. Nooooo sorry that is not me.

So no I'm not one of those. I am 100% Japanese. However I lived abroad for most of my childhood in The UK and USA, when my dad was doing international operations for a no-so-big company back then. 

A friend ofine says being Shnto priest is just an extreme solution to an identity crisis. But he can cram his Freud up his ass. I'm doing it because it interests me. And it is better than working on my strict uncle's rice far, where I have been and stzdoin the work. 

I like both the UK and the UA very much. Americans really are a kind-hearted people, whatever you migh think about their politics etc.  I am very fond of UK too. I learned to speak English pretty well in these place, but far from perfect as you can see here. I came back here because japanese college is much cheaper, but I lost a lot of my Japanese skills growing up abroad too  so I am in a kind of "no mans land." 

Actually there are many types like that in Japan and there are even night schools to teach  people like me "how to rember how to be Japanese". Lol. Something a little creepy and Orwellian about that.  It is true returnees are treated with a kind of "light discriminations" and so
somebody did a study showing such kind of person rarely gets ahead in the business world, etc.

Now I think of i, it is a little fucked up that I can't speak either English or Japanese  with the flawless tonge. Lol. Man of no language.

But I dont mean to complain, people have been wry kind and patient with me, here too  always. No negative experiences.

 Humanity's saving grace is that there really are good people on this planet.



Why would you want to translate that into English in the firs t place.  Is it really necessary?[i/quote]

1) Yes I need to try to keep up my english skills or I lose them faster than you might think. Already it takes too much concentrated efforts.

2) If Shinto is going to survive It has to move beyond its obsession with its Japanese-ness and I what it flourish with ties not only to location of Japan. I want to be part of this effort.

3) there are very few good writing on Shinto in English and a lot of if is old and full of mistakes. I want to "we the record straight" so to speak. 

I'm too tired to write more tonight so I'll check by this thread tomorrow. I would like how talk about the Shinto terms mi, tama and musubi because these are fuundmetals  poorly understood.

Thatnks for reading, it cheers me to see some are interested.
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05/03/2013 08:59 AM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
A simple selfish bump because it took me a long time to write that, you ungreatful bitches. Lol.
 Quoting: Shinto Trainee


Great read!
Not enough thinkers out there to appreciate it !
Blessings and Namaste !
7even

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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
I read of a very ancient Korean doctrine that internalised the idea of three threads pre-dating Freud by a few thousand years. I have not been able to find it since, have you heard of it OP?
7even
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
Aruba, Jamaica ooo I wanna take you
To Bermuda, Bahama come on pretty mama
Key Largo, Montego baby why don't we go
Down to Kokoro
We'll get there fast and then we'll take
it slow That's where we wanna go
Way down to Kokoro
luckyophelia

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05/03/2013 05:19 PM
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lovin it OP. very interesting!
bump

Last Edited by luckyophelia on 05/03/2013 05:19 PM
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05/03/2013 05:27 PM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
I liked the piece. I'm a christian so not essentially interested in other faiths.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39238684


shinto is a state religion for the benefit of the state.
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
Very interesting, OP. I've never known of a real life Shinto priest before or much about the Shinto religion. I really liked the explanation of kokoros. It really resonated with me.
I look forward to seeing more of your explanations about Shintoism.
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
Shinto is horse-shit.
SteamrolledGobias

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05/24/2013 05:33 PM

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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
adding this to my collection great work I love your posts

hf
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
There should be a lot of signal drop between what the poet chooses to relay through a medium (language, color etc) because a human is setup at far extremes of a volume while absorbing the contents only while on the move. In other words he only could gain traction to relay while interacting. Oh well, that is my take on it. :)
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
afro





OP what do you think of Sukyo Mahikari as an expression of Shintoism?











bumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbump
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03/18/2014 01:03 PM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
This idea is essentially untranslatable into English by dictionary tools. I tried hard but they don't grasp the subtle sense of multiple resonnance among separate things.

We can approach understanding through analogy, however. You see into a dictionary, it is telling you kokorois mean Is "pure heart" or similar misunderstanding. The arrow flies wide of the mark. It is like defining that a hat is an umbrella because they both keep the rain off. Essence of definition is lost easily.

Let us to define the subtle sense of Kokoro with analogy regarding resonnance. (interestingly, analogy itself also works by reasonnance. But irrelevant to our main issue at hand).

Then, The Analogy: A great post stands on a mountain and feels the power of nature, the mononoaware or "Primal awe." He is touched deeply, and writes a masterwork of poetry, inspired.

The western view is like "Genius poet was inspired by nature to create this masterwork of poetry."

The Shinto view of what happened is a little different. The poet, the natural scene, and the words of the language each have their own separate kokoros. When the primal awe is felt, this is the triple resonance of the three Kokoros: the Kokoro of the poet, the Kokoro of nature, and the Kokoro inherent in language itself. ("in the beginning their was the Word... Sound familiar? Shinto doctrine sees language itself as dynamic and charged with inherent spiritual power). The three resonate. Perfectly and the masterpiece of poetry emerges as the fruit of this triple resonance.

The awe is powerful; hair on arms stands up. But all credit cannot go to the author: it was the triple interaction of the three seperate, aforementioned Kokoros that wrote it. Not the man alone. The poem is a living being born of intense meshwork of three separate Kokoros reasonatng beautifully in a single thought-moment.

There is overlap, but also separateness. The post could not have written the poem without the natural world that inspired, or without the language to express. So the author is not the only author: All three are "authors" equally. Not putting person as "lone genius" in Weatwrn sense. He is only one-third of equation. He need the owed of language and the experience of being where he was.

On the largest possible level, the entire cosmos is an uncountable large number of separate Kokoros intermeshing at every node to create unfathomable awe through manifold harmony. This is different than the "all is one" mode of Buddhism. Buddhism holostic view is like salt that disaolves in water, while Shinto holistics is more like putting tiny gold flakes into the water: They do not dissolve and merge, they remain separate, but they dance with each other and the light to create endless patterns. Or like different instruments at the orchestra, resonating and vibrating in cosmic awe-generative lattice.

Awe is the "purpose of life" and simultaneous reaonnance of Kokoro from different sources (no "lone geniuses" in Shinto) is the means by which the cosmos generates awe. Why? Why not! Primal Awe is its own answer!
 Quoting: Shinto Trainee
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03/18/2014 01:14 PM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
OP can you write up something like this long and beautiful on events related to
Kinbaku Shibari of comfort women in Nankin.

To do this.... them officers must have been on some high Shinto Kokoros shit
that came down right from great emperor himself....

[link to kinbakuluxuria.com]
NowHeather

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03/18/2014 01:22 PM

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Awesome post OP! Thank you for taking the time to write it. hf
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03/18/2014 01:31 PM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
What a gorgeous post!!! Again, it goes to show how much we have to gain by understanding and listening to other cultures. Western arrogance, belief that superiority is through might and force, is causing most of the horrors in the world. If for one second, everyone tried to contemplate the meaning of Kokoro, we would all benefit. I am humbly in awe of your putting this on GLP. Brave and beautiful.
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03/18/2014 01:34 PM
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
OP can you write up something like this long and beautiful on events related to
Kinbaku Shibari of comfort women in Nankin.

To do this.... them officers must have been on some high Shinto Kokoros shit
that came down right from great emperor himself....

[link to kinbakuluxuria.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54935753


Examine the subtle horror of your own ignorant culture first.. at least OP is presenting something that perhaps your mind might benefit from. Why must everyone be an arm-chair, pajama-wearing, bully? OP was trying to explain a concept of great beauty and subtly, it does not mean he has to explain everything that even happened in Japan. Go back to your dark hole.
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Re: The Shinto concept "Kokoro" involves triple (at least) resonance and is not translatable onto English.
This idea is essentially untranslatable into English by dictionary tools. I tried hard but they don't grasp the subtle sense of multiple resonnance among separate things.

We can approach understanding through analogy, however. You see into a dictionary, it is telling you kokorois mean Is "pure heart" or similar misunderstanding. The arrow flies wide of the mark. It is like defining that a hat is an umbrella because they both keep the rain off. Essence of definition is lost easily.

Let us to define the subtle sense of Kokoro with analogy regarding resonnance. (interestingly, analogy itself also works by reasonnance. But irrelevant to our main issue at hand).

Then, The Analogy: A great post stands on a mountain and feels the power of nature, the mononoaware or "Primal awe." He is touched deeply, and writes a masterwork of poetry, inspired.

The western view is like "Genius poet was inspired by nature to create this masterwork of poetry."

The Shinto view of what happened is a little different. The poet, the natural scene, and the words of the language each have their own separate kokoros. When the primal awe is felt, this is the triple resonance of the three Kokoros: the Kokoro of the poet, the Kokoro of nature, and the Kokoro inherent in language itself. ("in the beginning their was the Word... Sound familiar? Shinto doctrine sees language itself as dynamic and charged with inherent spiritual power). The three resonate. Perfectly and the masterpiece of poetry emerges as the fruit of this triple resonance.

The awe is powerful; hair on arms stands up. But all credit cannot go to the author: it was the triple interaction of the three seperate, aforementioned Kokoros that wrote it. Not the man alone. The poem is a living being born of intense meshwork of three separate Kokoros reasonatng beautifully in a single thought-moment.

There is overlap, but also separateness. The post could not have written the poem without the natural world that inspired, or without the language to express. So the author is not the only author: All three are "authors" equally. Not putting person as "lone genius" in Weatwrn sense. He is only one-third of equation. He need the owed of language and the experience of being where he was.

On the largest possible level, the entire cosmos is an uncountable large number of separate Kokoros intermeshing at every node to create unfathomable awe through manifold harmony. This is different than the "all is one" mode of Buddhism. Buddhism holostic view is like salt that disaolves in water, while Shinto holistics is more like putting tiny gold flakes into the water: They do not dissolve and merge, they remain separate, but they dance with each other and the light to create endless patterns. Or like different instruments at the orchestra, resonating and vibrating in cosmic awe-generative lattice.

Awe is the "purpose of life" and simultaneous reaonnance of Kokoro from different sources (no "lone geniuses" in Shinto) is the means by which the cosmos generates awe. Why? Why not! Primal Awe is its own answer!
 Quoting: Shinto Trainee


clappa

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