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Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?

 
Anonymous Coward
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06/18/2013 04:45 PM
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Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
There are claims now surfacing in Poland that the "Polish" Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin, and that he was a CIA agent.

Is that true?


crisco
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06/18/2013 04:57 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
What do you think?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/18/2013 05:10 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
bump
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/18/2013 05:28 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
It looks like Ukrainians have themselves made this claim, already at least back in 2001:



"Jeszcze raz wrócę do tej sprawy. Otóż rzuciło mi się w oczy, że siostra Karola Wojtyły, która urodziła się i zmarła tego samego dnia - 7 lipca 1916r. - miała na imię Olga. Oczywiście takie imię zdarzało się czasami, najpowszechniejsze jednak wśród "łacinników" nie było. Wojtyłowie byli raczej religijni, więc zapewne brali pod uwagę postać, z którą to imię się wiąże. A jedyną świętą Olgą była Olga Kijowska - w kościele rzymskokatolickim raczej zapomniana, natomiast bardzo ważna figura dla obrządków sławnych - jako Równa Apostołom jest tam wymieniana razem ze św. Włodzimierzem, Chrzcicielem Rusi. Możliwe też, że Wojtyłowie wybrali imię córki bo jakichś babciach, prababciach...

(...).

Temat "ukraińskich" korzeni przodków Karola Wojtyły pojawił się przed wizytą Jana Pawła II na Ukrainie w lecie 2001 roku. Wówczas to lwowski dziennik "Za Vilnu Ukrainu" opublikował artykuł w którym padały stwierdzenia, że "rodzina Kaczorowskich, przodków Papieża wywodziła się z Chełmszczyzny, z której uszli do Galicji z powodu prześladowań unitów, a w domu rodzinnym Emilii Wojtyłowej mówiło się po ukraińsku; od matki Papież miał się nauczyć tego języka".




[link to austro-wegry.info]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/18/2013 05:45 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
I have translated a small bit of the above into English:


"...in the family home of Emilia Wojtyla they talked [among themselves] in Ukrainian. (...)"



So, what do you think?
Anonymous Coward
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06/18/2013 05:47 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
I'm wondering if the book AA-1025 is about Wojtyla. He did more to destroy the Catholic Church than most.

"What do expect to gain by entering Holy Orders?"

"To destroy the Church from within."

[link to www.fatimamovement.com]
Crush_the_ZOG_Cockroa​ch
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06/18/2013 05:51 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Nonsense. The Ukrainians are among the most J**-aware peoples on the planet, whilst JPII worked for the D0enmeh crypto-J**s to further corrupt and destroy the RCC.
INK3

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06/18/2013 05:53 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Who knows, my paternal grandparents were Ukrainian and Polish (one Pole, one Ukrainian). They spoke both languages, probably not that unusual.
"When tyrants tremble in their fear, and hear their death knell ringing,
When friends rejoice both far and near, how can I keep from singing"

page7
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/18/2013 05:58 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Not extremely common either.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/18/2013 06:18 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
I'm wondering if the book AA-1025 is about Wojtyla. He did more to destroy the Catholic Church than most.

"What do expect to gain by entering Holy Orders?"

"To destroy the Church from within."

[link to www.fatimamovement.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1627112


Perhaps that is the case, but the thread is about Karol Wojtyla's ethnic Ukrainian ancestry.

May I ask what is that book precisely about?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/18/2013 06:39 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
bump
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/18/2013 06:58 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
If CIA, then was Gestapo earlier?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/18/2013 07:12 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
yoda
EMPerror

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06/18/2013 07:22 PM

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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
I have translated a small bit of the above into English:


"...in the family home of Emilia Wojtyla they talked [among themselves] in Ukrainian. (...)"



So, what do you think?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36555443


He was Polish. Only speculation was that his mother Emilia Kaczorowska was from Lithuanian descent from his own hints. She was born in Silesia, Poland. That can possibly solve this case, who she was. Pope was talking in seven or eight languages and possibly was the first to address numerous nations in their own language. Anyway there are no proof about his supposed different descent.
It needs proof.
Anonymous Coward
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06/18/2013 07:22 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
No, the first and last name is pure polsky.
the borders between the two nations changed places wildly for centuries and the two nations hated one another and warred more than most due to big differences in religion and culture in general based on Roman vs Byzantine influences.
Anonymous Coward
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06/18/2013 07:25 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
I have translated a small bit of the above into English:


"...in the family home of Emilia Wojtyla they talked [among themselves] in Ukrainian. (...)"



So, what do you think?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36555443


He was Polish. Only speculation was that his mother Emilia Kaczorowska was from Lithuanian descent from his own hints. She was born in Silesia, Poland. That can possibly solve this case, who she was. Pope was talking in seven or eight languages and possibly was the first to address numerous nations in their own language. Anyway there are no proof about his supposed different descent.
It needs proof.
 Quoting: EMPerror


All the slavonic languages are related and can be understood fairly easily, and germanic/yiddish was also very common through out the region as well as a parallel language of commerce, so speaking half dozen languages was fairly standard for anyone in the region.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/18/2013 07:31 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Not entirely easily, and you can easily distinguish between Ukrainian and Polish.

These languages are NOT that similar.
Anonymous Coward
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06/18/2013 07:41 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Not entirely easily, and you can easily distinguish between Ukrainian and Polish.

These languages are NOT that similar.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36555443


Similar yet have many words in common, the big difference is the way poles speak, their word formation results in significant pronounciation differences that make the same basic words sound significantly different to someone unfamiliar with the languages
Anonymous Coward
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06/18/2013 07:42 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
He was s jew who sold himself to the devil. He lost big time and the devil has a gun. Apparently.
EMPerror

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06/18/2013 08:19 PM

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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
I have translated a small bit of the above into English:


"...in the family home of Emilia Wojtyla they talked [among themselves] in Ukrainian. (...)"



So, what do you think?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36555443


He was Polish. Only speculation was that his mother Emilia Kaczorowska was from Lithuanian descent from his own hints. She was born in Silesia, Poland. That can possibly solve this case, who she was. Pope was talking in seven or eight languages and possibly was the first to address numerous nations in their own language. Anyway there are no proof about his supposed different descent.
It needs proof.
 Quoting: EMPerror


All the slavonic languages are related and can be understood fairly easily, and germanic/yiddish was also very common through out the region as well as a parallel language of commerce, so speaking half dozen languages was fairly standard for anyone in the region.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 41602944


That part was once part of Lithuanian-Polish commonwealth with Ruthenian lands (where old Slavonic including Ukrainian languages were used), then Austria. History is undeniable. Lithuanian language is from different language group, extremely complicated to learn, hard to understand so was not used widely by others.
That is right, Slavic languages are related and once your native language is one of them, you can understand or easily learn others. Half dozen languages is a lot. The ones speaking in so many languages are simply linguistically gifted or well linguistically educated.

Last Edited by EMPerror on 06/18/2013 08:24 PM
Anonymous Coward
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06/18/2013 08:39 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
I have translated a small bit of the above into English:


"...in the family home of Emilia Wojtyla they talked [among themselves] in Ukrainian. (...)"



So, what do you think?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36555443


He was Polish. Only speculation was that his mother Emilia Kaczorowska was from Lithuanian descent from his own hints. She was born in Silesia, Poland. That can possibly solve this case, who she was. Pope was talking in seven or eight languages and possibly was the first to address numerous nations in their own language. Anyway there are no proof about his supposed different descent.
It needs proof.
 Quoting: EMPerror


All the slavonic languages are related and can be understood fairly easily, and germanic/yiddish was also very common through out the region as well as a parallel language of commerce, so speaking half dozen languages was fairly standard for anyone in the region.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 41602944


That part was once part of Lithuanian-Polish commonwealth with Ruthenian lands (where old Slavonic including Ukrainian languages were used), then Austria. History is undeniable. Lithuanian language is from different language group, extremely complicated to learn, hard to understand so was not used widely by others.
That is right, Slavic languages are related and once your native language is one of them, you can understand or easily learn others. Half dozen languages is a lot. The ones speaking in so many languages are simply linguistically gifted or well linguistically educated.
 Quoting: EMPerror


it is interesting that his mothers last name is remarkably pronounced kazarowska, which essetially means 'khazarian' in english suggestiong khazarian origin.
I have no dog in this hunt, I really dont care, but etymologically, thats what it means and indicates and is in accordance with the fundamental tribalistic nature of the regions involved
EMPerror

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06/18/2013 09:24 PM

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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
No, the first and last name is pure polsky.
the borders between the two nations changed places wildly for centuries and the two nations hated one another and warred more than most due to big differences in religion and culture in general based on Roman vs Byzantine influences.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 41602944


Conflict was much more complicated.
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Anonymous Coward
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06/18/2013 11:44 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
2 thoughts not yet mentioned
First the borders between countries there change with each war and new treaty
Second J P 2 was Roman Catholic.( Latin rite )
Ukrainians are not Roman Catholic but eastern rite similar to orthodox but are under the pope
EMPerror

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06/19/2013 10:02 AM

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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
2 thoughts not yet mentioned
First the borders between countries there change with each war and new treaty
Second J P 2 was Roman Catholic.( Latin rite )
Ukrainians are not Roman Catholic but eastern rite similar to orthodox but are under the pope
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34353211


It's a result of first ecumenical movement after the split of church. Council of Constance 1414-1418 which was called for the first time to discuss matters of a country (Lithuania). Pope's army was defeated and Lithuanians prevented total destruction of Teutonic order by not attacking their last castles (siege of Marienburg).
[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

It ended Crusades and started process of emergence from middle-age era, brought more civilized ways to the West to deal with problems. Oldest European country disappears Scythia or Sarmatia, with last pagans in Lithuania, Samogitians becoming Catholic.
Lithuanians wanted to end all and any religious wars in the area.

Lithuanian Orthodox (in Ruthenian lands) metropolitan Grigalius Camblakas (who was Bulgarian) presented unification idea, but it didn't find much attention in the Council. He died in Vilnius 1419 and didn't see it come true. It came true in Council of Florence 1439. In 1453 Constantinople fell and new country appeared which proclaimed itself Third Rome, Russia. Full unification lasted (some are still following treaties of this unification) until 1472 with another split or conflict.

Last Edited by EMPerror on 06/19/2013 10:20 AM
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/19/2013 11:28 AM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Can you cut that "Lithuanian" crap?


Kaczorowska - that surname does not sound even remotely Lithuanian.

Wojtyla - that surname does not sound even remotely Lithuanian, but it does sound Ukrainian.



As for evidence, I already posted it above, with a link to go with it, and if you do not know Polish, that is not my fault.
Korats01

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06/19/2013 11:30 AM

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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Could have been a martian I would not care less. He gave his last breath doing what he believe to be important that's enough for me.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/19/2013 12:00 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Wojtyla sounds like a Ukrainian surname, many of them tend to end with the letter "a".

Some genuine ethnic Poles also have such surnames; however, they tend to be more common among ethnic Ukrainians.


Plus the evidence presented above is compelling enough.


On the other hand, there is nothing Lithuanian about the surnames in question.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/19/2013 12:17 PM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Could have been a martian I would not care less. He gave his last breath doing what he believe to be important that's enough for me.
 Quoting: Korats01


And what was that? Travelling around the world and having a good time? And being worshipped by the Catholic masses?
EMPerror

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06/19/2013 01:31 PM

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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Can you cut that "Lithuanian" crap?


Kaczorowska - that surname does not sound even remotely Lithuanian.

Wojtyla - that surname does not sound even remotely Lithuanian, but it does sound Ukrainian.



As for evidence, I already posted it above, with a link to go with it, and if you do not know Polish, that is not my fault.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36555443


Names don't show a thing, they can be Polanized, translated which was common throughout history. Kacerauskas, Vaityla, now they do sound differently? These are the real surnames found in Lithuania. It's likely they are found in Ukraine with a different variation too.

Surnames were chosen freely some time ago in the past. Such evidence is worth nothing.

Some "Lithuanian" connection is expressed in almost every Lithuanian article, newspapers. The reality is noone really looked at it, it's a mystery. Noone knows for sure. Noone knows where did it come from originally.
It's one of the earliest found in digital form, 1981-07-04 article
[link to www.aidai.us]

Last Edited by EMPerror on 06/19/2013 01:46 PM
Anonymous Coward
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06/21/2013 08:44 AM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
So, whats the verdict? Was he a good guy caught in web of spiders, or not? Pope before him was suicided, MKUltra killer attempted to kill him (Ali Agca send probably by the russians). I mean he really seem like a good guy, i think that he was unaware to real/evil Vatican.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2013 10:38 AM
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Re: Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) was of ethnic Ukrainian origin?
Lithuanian surnames do not end with the letter "a", but instead they tend to have the "is" ending.

On the other hand, many Ukrainian surnames end with the letter "a".


Besides, it is not purely about the surnames, but also the other evidence, which I posted above already, but it appears that either you do not know Polish, or you simply decided to ignore it.

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