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Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism

 
Astral Goat
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08/09/2013 02:28 AM

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Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
Wanted to discuss this with some of the scholars on here after watching that pinned thread of the man shouting Allahu akbar

[link to www.islamreligion.com]

from article...

If we were to take into consideration the general meaning of the word ‘monotheism’ Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Zoroastrianism, and some Hindu philosophies could all be included. However it is, more commonplace to refer to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as the three monotheistic religions and group them together; nonetheless, there are glaring differences between Christianity and Islam.

The concept of a trinity inherent in most Christian denominations ostensibly includes aspects of plurality. The belief that one God is some how three divinities (father, son, and holy spirit) contradicts the concept of Monotheism inherent in Islam, where the Oneness of God is unquestionable. Some Christian groups, including those known as Unitarians believe that God is One and cannot be God and human at the same time. They take the words of Jesus in John 17:3, “the One True God” literally. However, the vast majority of Christians do not share this belief.


Who are these Christians that do not share that belief?

I realize the website/article is pushing Islam...so I feel it is biased


What do you think?

So Muslims obviously believe Jesus died and rose correct and he was a prophet?

This would seem to go against what they say about God not having partners, children, or associates...


___________________________________________________________

Please watch, explains a lot of the concepts we've been talking about.

It appears that even Islam relies on a duality of God in the form of the spirit of allah being divine.

Not making it truly monotheistic.

Will post to front.



Last Edited by Astral Goat on 08/09/2013 11:38 PM
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Astral Goat (OP)
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08/09/2013 02:31 AM

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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
When does Bible ever say God is not one with everything?
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Astral Goat (OP)
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08/09/2013 02:34 AM

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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
I will eagerly await your responses...


:)
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Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 02:35 AM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
schloars? yew troll!
Astral Goat (OP)
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08/09/2013 02:39 AM

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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
WHere is DGN when you need him...?
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Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 02:40 AM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
So Muslims obviously believe Jesus died and rose correct and he was a prophet?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


don't they say Jesus didn't die?

[link to www.themuslimtimes.org]

[link to www.letusreason.org]
Astral Goat (OP)
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08/09/2013 02:42 AM

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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
I suppose what they ultimately reject is that you can find God through Jesus, which is central to Christians...
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Astral Goat (OP)
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08/09/2013 04:25 PM

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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
Bumping for discussion posted late last night
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Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:31 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
Who are the Christians that don't share the Unitarian belief of One God Above All who is not a man and never was? That would be all the Christians who believe Jesus is God .
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:33 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
I was a "pure monotheist" until April 23, 2013.


Now I think monotheism makes no sense at all.
Astral Goat (OP)
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08/09/2013 04:36 PM

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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
I was a "pure monotheist" until April 23, 2013.


Now I think monotheism makes no sense at all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44852032


Thank u for replying can u elaborate?
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Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:41 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
So Muslims obviously believe Jesus died and rose correct and he was a prophet?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


Muzzies believe Jesus was a prophet, but deny he ever died for our sins, or even died on a cross.

Quran And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them.

Also if we use NDE's as evidence, many including non-Christians (even Muslims), have seen Jesus, with his crucifixion wounds. This is counter to what the Quran teaches.

In addition, in many of these NDE's, the people learned of things, which they didn't previously know about, but then was later proven and researched to be true. This means, the NDE was not a hallucination, or a product of the imagination, subconscious, beliefs, or expectations.
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:41 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
I grew up Jewish but am now Messianic, but unitarian

Trinitarians are not monotheistic imo

I don't think there is Biblical support for this viewpoint
It was adopted from paganism

Additionally, those who believe in a supernatural devil/satan are also not monotheistic

The Bible tells us there is one and only one God and He does it all
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:43 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
So Muslims obviously believe Jesus died and rose correct and he was a prophet?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


Muzzies believe Jesus was a prophet, but deny he ever died for our sins, or even died on a cross.

Quran And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them.

Also if we use NDE's as evidence, many including non-Christians (even Muslims), have seen Jesus, with his crucifixion wounds. This is counter to what the Quran teaches.

In addition, in many of these NDE's, the people learned of things, which they didn't previously know about, but then was later proven and researched to be true. This means, the NDE was not a hallucination, or a product of the imagination, subconscious, beliefs, or expectations.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5842790


The Quran passage number from above is

4:157
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:43 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
So Muslims obviously believe Jesus died and rose correct and he was a prophet?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


Muzzies believe Jesus was a prophet, but deny he ever died for our sins, or even died on a cross.

Quran And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them.

Also if we use NDE's as evidence, many including non-Christians (even Muslims), have seen Jesus, with his crucifixion wounds. This is counter to what the Quran teaches.

In addition, in many of these NDE's, the people learned of things, which they didn't previously know about, but then was later proven and researched to be true. This means, the NDE was not a hallucination, or a product of the imagination, subconscious, beliefs, or expectations.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5842790


NDE are not supported by the Bible either

Have a look at Ecc 9:5
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:46 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
So Muslims obviously believe Jesus died and rose correct and he was a prophet?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


Muzzies believe Jesus was a prophet, but deny he ever died for our sins, or even died on a cross.

Quran And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them.

Also if we use NDE's as evidence, many including non-Christians (even Muslims), have seen Jesus, with his crucifixion wounds. This is counter to what the Quran teaches.

In addition, in many of these NDE's, the people learned of things, which they didn't previously know about, but then was later proven and researched to be true. This means, the NDE was not a hallucination, or a product of the imagination, subconscious, beliefs, or expectations.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5842790


NDE are not supported by the Bible either

Have a look at Ecc 9:5
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39758213


Many verses would state otherwise.

For example "to be absent from the body, is to be present with God.

Jesus's speaking of the richman in hell.

Jesus, being seen with Moses and Elijah

Paul, stating a man taking to heaven, either in our out of the body. He wouldn't have stated, he may have been out of the body, if this wasn't even possible.
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:50 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
When does Bible ever say God is not one with everything?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


How could God be one with everything when he clearly rejects evil, and pagan gods, etc. You are speaking of Pantheism which is the basis of many pagan religions. Judaism and Judeo-Christian values do not believe in this theory. However, a lot of new age "Christian" churches do.
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:51 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
in islam there is 99 names of the creator.
thinking that the creator is three is like thinking he is 99.

there is one supreme creator. he comes in different forms.

pagan people just got confused a bit.. they pray to many gods thinking that they are different. they didn't realise that they where praying to different expressions of our beloved creator.

i hope this help
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 04:56 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
in islam there is 99 names of the creator.
thinking that the creator is three is like thinking he is 99.

there is one supreme creator. he comes in different forms.

pagan people just got confused a bit.. they pray to many gods thinking that they are different. they didn't realise that they where praying to different expressions of our beloved creator.

i hope this help
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44869604


And one of these 99 names, is that Allah is a cheater/ deceiver.

Qur'an 3:54 And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.

The Qur'an openly states many times that Allah is the 'best deceiver'. The root word used in these verses is Makr which means deception.
[link to wikiislam.net]
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 05:00 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
jews don't believe in a Trinity either. Christianity should be reclassified as a polytheistic religion like Hinduism which has the Grand Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
Astral Goat (OP)
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08/09/2013 05:05 PM

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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
When does Bible ever say God is not one with everything?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


How could God be one with everything when he clearly rejects evil, and pagan gods, etc. You are speaking of Pantheism which is the basis of many pagan religions. Judaism and Judeo-Christian values do not believe in this theory. However, a lot of new age "Christian" churches do.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26300532


I suppose i should have phrased it differently

That everything is aspect of God

The oneness is that he cannot have peers relatives...

However islam recognizes prophets which invalidates this claim
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Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 05:05 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
in islam there is 99 names of the creator.
thinking that the creator is three is like thinking he is 99.

there is one supreme creator. he comes in different forms.

pagan people just got confused a bit.. they pray to many gods thinking that they are different. they didn't realise that they where praying to different expressions of our beloved creator.

i hope this help
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44869604


And one of these 99 names, is that Allah is a cheater/ deceiver.

Qur'an 3:54 And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.

The Qur'an openly states many times that Allah is the 'best deceiver'. The root word used in these verses is Makr which means deception.
[link to wikiislam.net]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5842790


no its not one of the 99 names

''makr'' which is the arabic word used here does not mean cheat; it means to ambush

yes i assure you that the people who try to ambush righteous servants of the creator shall indeed fine themselves ambushed by the creator and he is really good at it too

and when i say righteous people i mean people from all creeds.
peace
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 05:06 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
So Muslims obviously believe Jesus died and rose correct and he was a prophet?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


don't they say Jesus didn't die?

[link to www.themuslimtimes.org]

[link to www.letusreason.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44325564


Muslims deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
Astral Goat (OP)
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08/09/2013 05:06 PM

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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
Theoretically


Christianity would be most verifiable of all religions in that if Jesus really did die and was resurrected it would be proof of gods covenant

Islam relies on those outright believing Muhammad did night journey etc...taking him by his word

Last Edited by Astral Goat on 08/09/2013 05:08 PM
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08/09/2013 05:10 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
I suppose what they ultimately reject is that you can find God through Jesus, which is central to Christians...
 Quoting: Astral Goat


One can find God through Jesus just as one can find God through anything in creation (even within your own self) - but that doesn't make Jesus or any other vehicle God. The Driver isn't the vehicle nor does He become one with it or identify Himself as the vehicle.

To identify one's self (vehicle) as God is to make one's self an object of worship which is what Christianity and many other so-called religions are all about; making Jesus an object of worship and identifying Jesus the vehicle as God - which is idolatry - and idols get smashed to dust. Man has transformed himself into an idol - and he is being disabused of his ignorance as we speak.

The Trinity was the Roman Empire's attempt to maintain the imperial deification of the emperors under the cloak of a religion crafted around insurrection leaders who rejected Rome's tyranny and sickening 'culture' of faggotry, beastiality, pedastry, and drunkenness.
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 05:11 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
When does Bible ever say God is not one with everything?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


How could God be one with everything when he clearly rejects evil, and pagan gods, etc. You are speaking of Pantheism which is the basis of many pagan religions. Judaism and Judeo-Christian values do not believe in this theory. However, a lot of new age "Christian" churches do.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26300532


I suppose i should have phrased it differently

That everything is aspect of God

The oneness is that he cannot have peers relatives...

However islam recognizes prophets which invalidates this claim
 Quoting: Astral Goat


God did create everything that's true. Personally, i don't agree with Islam and can't really expand on it for fear of persecution. A true Christian would never persecute, any "Christian" that has persecuted is false (ex. inquisition). God is love, Jesus said turn the other cheek so they are false Christians. That being said i think Christians should defend themselves at times.
Monotheist
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08/09/2013 05:14 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
Long story...

I appreciate the question OP but cannot answer it thoroughly now but would like to open up a discussion with you.

I have the benefit of being raised catholic, and then converting to Sunni Islam, and then leaving Islam to become a true Muslim.

If you are a true seeker I can answer your questions but to do so would take some time that I do not have now.

Please, check back later on your thread as I would like to discuss further.

I'll start here though and elaborate later.

All of these "religions", including Islam are NOT monotheistic, although the Quran as a document in itself is.

The Quran is the document that leads one to pure monotheism.

If one reads it carefully, it reveals the tricks and failings of all the religions and how the well meaning are lead into other than monotheism.

For people in the non monotheistic sects of Sunni and Shia Islam for example it is the ADDITION of HADITH, (secondary books) that take Muslims as far from monotheism as trinitarians.

God has been trying to give us ALL one simple message - (worship me and me alone) in every religion.

Every religion adds more to it and takes us away.

They all just do it in different ways.
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 05:17 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
Theoretically


Christianity would be most verifiable of all religions in that if Jesus really did die and was resurrected it would be proof of gods covenant

Islam relies on those outright believing Muhammad did night journey etc...taking him by his word
 Quoting: Astral Goat


Christianity as it is out of Bible (not stuff added to it which is a big no-no) lines up the most with prophecy in the old testament. The Messiah was prophesied to come from the throne of David, there are many, many prophecies fulfilled. He was sent to the Jew first, but they rejected him, but only until the fulfillment of the Gentiles, which is probably soon. This is also prophesied in Isaiah 53, beautiful read.
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 05:18 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
When does Bible ever say God is not one with everything?
 Quoting: Astral Goat


How could God be one with everything when he clearly rejects evil, and pagan gods, etc. You are speaking of Pantheism which is the basis of many pagan religions. Judaism and Judeo-Christian values do not believe in this theory. However, a lot of new age "Christian" churches do.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26300532


I suppose i should have phrased it differently

That everything is aspect of God

The oneness is that he cannot have peers relatives...

However islam recognizes prophets which invalidates this claim
 Quoting: Astral Goat


God did create everything that's true. Personally, i don't agree with Islam and can't really expand on it for fear of persecution. A true Christian would never persecute, any "Christian" that has persecuted is false (ex. inquisition). God is love, Jesus said turn the other cheek so they are false Christians. That being said i think Christians should defend themselves at times.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26300532


Jesus didn't say turn the other cheek. Roman imperial scribes wrote those words so that the people would stop rising up against Rome's oppression. Now there may be some validity to the tactic of passive resistance to tyranny which calls forth other forces to destroy it - but it also convicts those 'turning the other cheek' of complicity in the tyranny.
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 05:21 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
Long story...

I appreciate the question OP but cannot answer it thoroughly now but would like to open up a discussion with you.

I have the benefit of being raised catholic, and then converting to Sunni Islam, and then leaving Islam to become a true Muslim.

If you are a true seeker I can answer your questions but to do so would take some time that I do not have now.

Please, check back later on your thread as I would like to discuss further.

I'll start here though and elaborate later.

All of these "religions", including Islam are NOT monotheistic, although the Quran as a document in itself is.

The Quran is the document that leads one to pure monotheism.

If one reads it carefully, it reveals the tricks and failings of all the religions and how the well meaning are lead into other than monotheism.

For people in the non monotheistic sects of Sunni and Shia Islam for example it is the ADDITION of HADITH, (secondary books) that take Muslims as far from monotheism as trinitarians.

God has been trying to give us ALL one simple message - (worship me and me alone) in every religion.

Every religion adds more to it and takes us away.

They all just do it in different ways.
 Quoting: Monotheist 40028507


The Hadiths are where the Romans and Persians attempt to get hold of the Message and steer the populations back into alignment with either Rome or Persia - which sets the general, fundamental division of the middle eastern peoples between two poles - Rome (sunni) and Persia (Shia).
Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 05:24 PM
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Re: Discussion on Islam's rejection of the Trinity in Christianity and pure monotheism
I grew up Jewish but am now Messianic, but unitarian

Trinitarians are not monotheistic imo

I don't think there is Biblical support for this viewpoint
It was adopted from paganism

Additionally, those who believe in a supernatural devil/satan are also not monotheistic

The Bible tells us there is one and only one God and He does it all
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39758213


Just throwing my two cents in here, but their have been many Rabbinic scholars who agreed the term for God in the Old Testament at times was referring to a plurality or "we" if you will, which could refer to the Father, Son & Holy Ghost. (Of course being Rabbinic they did not use those exact words, but Messianic believers have).

Also, many Messianic Jews have brought this point up along with bringing up the term "Shekinah" as meaning God among us, similar to Holy Spirit in Christianity.

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