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Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?

 
Fret Wiz
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08/09/2013 09:52 AM

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Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Short: Is it legal for a nurse's assistant to bring home vaccinations and administer them at home?

Is it normal for a tetanus shot to leave a red mark for 8-9 weeks?

Specific: My GF's ex is hooking up w/ a nurse's assitant who's brought home flu vaccinations from a remote vaccination event & gave everyone shots. She's done the same with Tetanus. Those are the only two I'm aware of so far.

I'm not completely sure she's a nurse's assistant, but I know she was substitute teaching 2 years ago, and don't think she could be a RN in that timeframe.

My GF's 11 year old still has a red, dime sized mark on his arm from the Tetanus shot that was over 2 months ago.

Is this even legal (I'm in VA if that helps), should I be concerned about that red mark?

Thanks in advance for your expertise and advice!
hf

Last Edited by Fret Wiz on 08/09/2013 09:54 AM
Fret Wiz

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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 44215412
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08/09/2013 09:56 AM
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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Death by vaccination

[link to rense.com]

VACCINE INGREDIENTS

MSG
Antifreeze
Formaldehyde
Aluminium
Glycerin
Lead
Cadmium
Sulfates
Yeast proteins
Antibiotics
Acetone
Neomycin
Streptomycin
Mercury
Monkey kidney
Dog kidney
Chick embryo
Chicken egg
Duck egg
Calf serum
Aborted fetal tissue
Pig blood
Horse blood
Sheep blood
Rabbit brain
Guinea pig etc.
PLUS - Germs get a free ride into the bloodstream, without having to fight their way through the immune system - oh - I forgot - babies don't have an immune system. Since vaccines are meant to stimulate the immune system, and babies don't have one, why are they vaccinated?

Educate BEFORE you Vaccinate -
Vaccine Injury Coalition
[link to www.vacinfo.org]

See the book "Vaccine legal exemptions"
ceawaves

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08/09/2013 09:58 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Anyone can give a shot..
Fret Wiz (OP)
Give Away the Stone

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08/09/2013 09:59 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Death by vaccination

[link to rense.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44215412


I hear ya, friend, but we can't stop what we don't see when they are with their father. Sucks!
Fret Wiz

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Watching the world
Crypt Watcher

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08/09/2013 10:00 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Depending on the state you are in CNA's cannot give injections. If she is a medical assistant, it may be a different story.

Most states do not allow CNA's to give any kind of injections.
Ignorance is bliss until reality bites you in the ass.

I bury the dead.
beeches

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08/09/2013 10:01 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
No.
if mighty oaks are the king of the forest, beeches are surely its queen.
Watching the world
Crypt Watcher

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08/09/2013 10:01 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Here is their scope of practice

[link to www.in.gov]
Ignorance is bliss until reality bites you in the ass.

I bury the dead.
Watching the world
Crypt Watcher

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08/09/2013 10:02 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Just google the state you are in then type CNA scope of practice
Ignorance is bliss until reality bites you in the ass.

I bury the dead.
Fret Wiz (OP)
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08/09/2013 10:03 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Depending on the state you are in CNA's cannot give injections. If she is a medical assistant, it may be a different story.

Most states do not allow CNA's to give any kind of injections.
 Quoting: Watching the world


Thanks, but I know she was doing it at the vaccination fair, or whatever it was. I'll look into the VA laws to the best of my ability.
Fret Wiz

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Fret Wiz (OP)
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08/09/2013 10:04 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Here is their scope of practice

[link to www.in.gov]
 Quoting: Watching the world


Ya beat me, thanks!

hf

Hi, beeches! cheers
Fret Wiz

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beeches

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08/09/2013 10:08 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Anyone can give a shot..
 Quoting: ceawaves


but not legally.

FretWiz, any time a vaccination is given by anyone, there are forms to sign, releases and such. Did they sign any papers?

But as to the larger question:

No it is NOT legal!!!

First of all, was there an MD's order for the shots to be given at all?

Second, no provider in their right minds would let injectables travel out of the office or pharmacy - are they going to be tampered with prior to being given? kind of a chain of evidence thing.

Third: who took the liability here? No ethical provider would accept liability for someone taking the meds home to give out.

Here's my take: some people give their dogs their worming stuff or vaccinations at home.
This may be legal - don't know, I was never a vet. But I was a nurse.

This person may also be injecting narcotics, may have taken the vaccines without permission - ie stealing.

I hope I am completely wrong.

But it does not look legit.
if mighty oaks are the king of the forest, beeches are surely its queen.
beeches

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08/09/2013 10:09 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Here is their scope of practice

[link to www.in.gov]
 Quoting: Watching the world


Ya beat me, thanks!

hf

Hi, beeches! cheers
 Quoting: Fret Wiz


Hi back!

Those georgeous trees of yours doing better? We still never got any cicadas here.
if mighty oaks are the king of the forest, beeches are surely its queen.
AlkaliDesert

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08/09/2013 10:10 AM
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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Giving a shot may or may not be legal. I don't know all the state laws and some states have medication aude courses for CNAs, medical assistants that can give injections, and so on.

Bringing stuff home and giving it without an order definitely isn't.
Fret Wiz (OP)
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08/09/2013 10:12 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Those georgeous trees of yours doing better? We still never got any cicadas here.
 Quoting: beeches


Ya know, they didn't. Seems like it was the oaks in the whole area. I don't think it's serious, just a little cicada pruning, but the branch tips are falling all over the place & giving me fits, haha!
Fret Wiz

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beeches

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08/09/2013 10:14 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
back to the red mark - not normal. Former GF should have it checked out.

that would also definitively answer the question of the okay-ness of getting that shot that way.

I am all for reliance on self, but this is not good. The kid may have some issues at the injection site that may need to be looked at.
and for his mother's sake, she should have it looked at so it does not appear she knew something was wrong and hid it.
The upper arm ( deltoid area) is a prime place for bruises and such in children, if parents grab them there.

Can of worms here. Hope that red spot is not painful.
if mighty oaks are the king of the forest, beeches are surely its queen.
beeches

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08/09/2013 10:17 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Those georgeous trees of yours doing better? We still never got any cicadas here.
 Quoting: beeches


Ya know, they didn't. Seems like it was the oaks in the whole area. I don't think it's serious, just a little cicada pruning, but the branch tips are falling all over the place & giving me fits, haha!
 Quoting: Fret Wiz


I feel that way when squirrels nip the ends of the branches from my pin oak.

The cottonwood tree across the street never put out its fluffy cotton this year!

I was even going to collect the stuff to show to someone who didn't believe me that they actually send a kind of cotton into the wind.

oh well. Trees, go figure.
if mighty oaks are the king of the forest, beeches are surely its queen.
Fret Wiz (OP)
Give Away the Stone

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08/09/2013 10:18 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Anyone can give a shot..
 Quoting: ceawaves


but not legally.

FretWiz, any time a vaccination is given by anyone, there are forms to sign, releases and such. Did they sign any papers?

But as to the larger question:

No it is NOT legal!!!

First of all, was there an MD's order for the shots to be given at all?

Second, no provider in their right minds would let injectables travel out of the office or pharmacy - are they going to be tampered with prior to being given? kind of a chain of evidence thing.

Third: who took the liability here? No ethical provider would accept liability for someone taking the meds home to give out.

Here's my take: some people give their dogs their worming stuff or vaccinations at home.
This may be legal - don't know, I was never a vet. But I was a nurse.

This person may also be injecting narcotics, may have taken the vaccines without permission - ie stealing.

I hope I am completely wrong.

But it does not look legit.
 Quoting: beeches


You know, I really wish I had more info than what the kids told us.

For the flu shot, I know she did it after a sanctioned event (shopping mall, something like that), so I was thinking the same as you, she just pocketed a vial and some sharps.

You bring up good points about liability and paperwork, seems kind of moot to administer a tetanus shot & not document it, for sure.

I think I should probably just call my state's board of health, this is all very worrying.

I'd hate to stir up a shitstorm over there if it was all on the up & up. The kids are gonna be pissed at us either way.
Fret Wiz

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3pic

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08/09/2013 10:22 AM
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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
I have been both a CNA and LP in VA.

As far as I know a CNA cannot give injections and has no Med certification (separate documentation needed) ... although if she was doing so in another state she may have proper certification in another state and therefore reciprocity can be filed in VA, but to be legal the paperwork needed to be filed with the state and returned approved.


As for the mark. If it was Dtp redness and soreness can be expected for several days however if it persist or there are signs of fever I would take the child to the doctor. It maybe the infection site has become infected.

You mentioned the influenza shot (several weeks ) ago. I went for mine (required for work) it is NOT available yet this year. If this was last years vac it will not be the right strains for the upcoming flu season.

(If the mark does not abate go to the doctor. Be honest. Flow your gut.)


Hope this helps. :)
Watching the world
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08/09/2013 10:24 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
That's weird. I use to be a CNA many years ago in VA. Unless the rules and regs have changed, CNA's cannot give injections.

I only work with burying dead people now, I can inject all kinds of things. Lol

Good luck to you.

construction
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I bury the dead.
3pic

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08/09/2013 10:29 AM
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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Read everything again.

2013 flu is not available in va... so I would question that.

And that mark has been there too long. I would go to doctor. If the mark is warm or painful do not hesitate.


:(
Fret Wiz (OP)
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08/09/2013 10:36 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Read everything again.

2013 flu is not available in va... so I would question that.

And that mark has been there too long. I would go to doctor. If the mark is warm or painful do not hesitate.


:(
 Quoting: 3pic


I believe the flu was around Nov of 2012. The mark, it's a mild pink, not painful, no fever, but I think we may take him for good measure this upcoming week. We can also see if it's been documented.

Just got off the phone w/ the VA board of health. They wouldn't give me "legal advice", even though I clearly stated I just wanted a definition of the scope of practice. Ugh.

Onto the board of nursing next.

Thanks, you guys, I really appreciate all the input!
Fret Wiz

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Fret Wiz (OP)
Give Away the Stone

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08/09/2013 10:40 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
That's weird. I use to be a CNA many years ago in VA. Unless the rules and regs have changed, CNA's cannot give injections.

I only work with burying dead people now, I can inject all kinds of things. Lol

Good luck to you.
 Quoting: Watching the world


Haha, thanks for the giggle!
Fret Wiz

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Anonymous Coward
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08/09/2013 10:44 AM
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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
CNA's take people to the bathroom, change diapers, feed people, dress people, brush teeth, clean bedpans and do a lot of the dirty work no one else would want to do, but they don't give shots.
Fret Wiz (OP)
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08/09/2013 11:07 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
CNA's take people to the bathroom, change diapers, feed people, dress people, brush teeth, clean bedpans and do a lot of the dirty work no one else would want to do, but they don't give shots.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7526978


Hm, all the evidence in this thread is leading me to believe she may be in a position higher than a CNA, since I know she gives injections at work.

Gonna have to do a little digging on her position before I go any further.

Thanks!
Fret Wiz

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"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it."
AlkaliDesert

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08/09/2013 11:39 AM
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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Here's my take: some people give their dogs their worming stuff or vaccinations at home.
This may be legal - don't know, I was never a vet. But I was a nurse.
 Quoting: beeches


I agree totally with the rest of what you say, but you can get some vet meds, especially vaccinations and dewormers, without a prescription at a farm store, at least in many states. I have a vial of cow tetanus vaccination in my fridge right now.

Hm, all the evidence in this thread is leading me to believe she may be in a position higher than a CNA, since I know she gives injections at work.

Gonna have to do a little digging on her position before I go any further.

Thanks!
 Quoting: Fret Wiz


It sounds to me like, whatever the route, she's legitimately allowed to give injections if she's doing so at a public event. There are pathways to this that are much quicker than an RN degree.

Whether she's allowed to or not doesn't matter - she's not allowed to take them home and give them to family like that.

This would, by the way, be easy for someone running a flu shot clinic to do. They ship you the supplies, you may or may not ship back the sealed stuff that isn't used and ship the used sharps/opened vials separately to a disposal company. There's going to be an expected amount of waste (vials that were opened and not fully used, needles that got accidentally contaminated before use), so taking home a few doses would not be particularly difficult. But not legit.

Last Edited by AlkaliDesert on 08/09/2013 11:43 AM
Fret Wiz (OP)
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08/09/2013 11:41 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
I think I'm getting closer. Linkedin tells me she's a Medical Assistant, so she's not licensed. In researching their Scope of Practice, I found this:

Virginia permits licensed physicians to delegate the administration of controlled substances to medical assistants under his or her direct and immediate supervision, provided the route of administration is not intravenous, intrathecal, or epidural.

I'm just not certain if a vaccine is considered a "controlled substance"
Fret Wiz

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Fret Wiz (OP)
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08/09/2013 11:45 AM

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Re: Nurses/Healthcare peeps, can you answer a question, please?
Hm, all the evidence in this thread is leading me to believe she may be in a position higher than a CNA, since I know she gives injections at work.

Gonna have to do a little digging on her position before I go any further.

Thanks!
 Quoting: Fret Wiz


It sounds to me like, whatever the route, she's legitimately allowed to give injections if she's doing so at a public event. There are pathways to this that are much quicker than an RN degree.

Whether she's allowed to or not doesn't matter - she's not allowed to take them home and give them to family like that.

This would, by the way, be easy for someone running a flu shot clinic to do. They ship you the supplies, you may or may not ship back the sealed stuff that isn't used and ship the used sharps/opened vials separately to a disposal company. There's going to be an expected amount of waste (vials that were opened and not fully used, needles that got accidentally contaminated before use), so taking home a few doses would not be particularly difficult. But not legit.
 Quoting: AlkaliDesert


Flu shot is gonna be hard to prove. If this is correct, there should be no record of the Tetanus shot, either. I may not be able to prove either. Argh.
Fret Wiz

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"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it."

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