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The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!

 
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 11:51 AM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
Wow, OP I looked into this a little further. I am still up in the air. Some of what Paul says seems good...but a lot of the stuff I like seems to be lifted from Gospel.

Regardless look at this:

Galatians 2:11

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

By Paul's own admission he is opposing Peter...the person that actually knew Jesus and the person he had asked to build his Church. Then we have Paul who never even freaking met Jesus!

I am going to study this more thanks OP.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22407179


Most Christians will say Peter did something wrong (in support of Paul), but that's only based on Paul's side of the story. We don't have Peter's side of the story now, do we? ;)


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111

Or anybody else's. In fact, there's a deafening silence from any and all the Twelve and other apostles criticizing Paul. Go find evidence that any of them said a word of warning about Paul.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


The epistles of James, 1 John, 2 Peter, Jude all contains veiled references against Paul. I believe that the authors wrote them to counter Paul's ministry, but did not outrightly name Paul because:

1. That would limit the application of their warnings to just one man, instead of generalizing it to apply to all anti-Christs down through time,

and 2. Jesus commanded his disciples to not separate the wheat from the chaff, he will do it himself. So they obeyed, and attacked his false doctrines instead.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
No, it's a legitimate observation. You claim to follow Paul and defend him, yet Paul says that women should not speak in the company of other believers.

You are not even following your own master's standards. How should I believe your defense of him then?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


No, it's a red herring to take the heat off of your (plural) refuted claims against Paul.

And it is YOU who defy and rebel against everything Jesus and all the apostles taught. Ad hominem will not change that.

I'd tell you to stick to the topic here, but I don't even care anymore. You all can go on bleating about things you don't understand.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


No, I follow Jesus and the genuine apostle. Not your false apostle and false master.
Keep2theCode

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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
"Veiled references"... what a joke.

My last statement here to you Paul and Jesus haters: The real Jesus rose from the dead. It is only by putting all your faith in him alone, forsaking all others, that you can be saved.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 08/23/2013 11:59 AM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 11:57 AM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
"Veiled references"... what a joke.

My last statement here to you Paul and Jesus haters: The real Jesus rose from the dead. It is only by putting all your faith in him alone, forsaking all others, that you can be saved.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20

I consider that a veiled reference to Paul and his faith-only theology.

Lovers of Paul the Pharisee must hate Jesus because they disobey what Jesus said about avoiding the Pharisees, right?
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 12:18 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
"Veiled references"... what a joke.

My last statement here to you Paul and Jesus haters: The real Jesus rose from the dead. It is only by putting all your faith in him alone, forsaking all others, that you can be saved.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.



You're doctrine of faith and grace is lukewarm!

Jesus said entering the Kingdom is difficult. If you really believed John 3:16 and Jesus did not taste death then you would try to do EVERYTHING he said down to the T!
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 12:30 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
"Veiled references"... what a joke.

My last statement here to you Paul and Jesus haters: The real Jesus rose from the dead. It is only by putting all your faith in him alone, forsaking all others, that you can be saved.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

You're doctrine of faith and grace is lukewarm!

Jesus said entering the Kingdom is difficult. If you really believed John 3:16 and Jesus did not taste death then you would try to do EVERYTHING he said down to the T!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22407179


True!

Most Christians need to understand things in a more simple way. "Faith", "faith vs works" - it all goes over their heads. Instead, I tell them this:

A wife who says she has faith in her husband but is not faithful (obedient) to him - is she a good wife?

A wife who not only has faith in her husband, but also follows him faithfully (obediently) - is she a good wife?

Which wife will Jesus the husband accept, and which one will he reject? See Matthew 7:21-23 for Jesus's answer. (But most Christians who follow Paul's easy way won't like Jesus's answer).
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 12:37 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
Paul taught it was okay to eat foods sacrificed to idols. This is what Yeshua says about that in Revelation...

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

I did a study on Balaam and it reminded me of Paul.

Yeshua also commends a church in Revelation for turning away false prophets and the church he named had turned Paul away. I'll have to look up which one it was. In the end it is said that all in Asia had turned against Paul. In my opinion the apostles tried to accept Paul in the beginning, but got word that he was going around teaching false doctrine. The apostles would then have to write letters correcting what he was teaching. An example is James with the faith versus works doctrine.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
Paul taught it was okay to eat foods sacrificed to idols. This is what Yeshua says about that in Revelation...

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

I did a study on Balaam and it reminded me of Paul.

Yeshua also commends a church in Revelation for turning away false prophets and the church he named had turned Paul away. I'll have to look up which one it was. In the end it is said that all in Asia had turned against Paul. In my opinion the apostles tried to accept Paul in the beginning, but got word that he was going around teaching false doctrine. The apostles would then have to write letters correcting what he was teaching. An example is James with the faith versus works doctrine.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45265819


Don't forget, Paul also taught his followers that it was OK to commit fornication.
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 01:08 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
Wrong wrong and wrong. Condemning people for sins was abolished. We now have grace. The new covenant replaces death with grace. God's commandments still apply though. Meaning no homosexuals, idolatry, prostitutes etc.

If you're not under a law, why did Paul quote from it and tell you who won't inherit the kingdom of God ?
 Quoting: Alexander The Great


You continually contradict yourself. The death penalty under the old testament law was a law just like all the other laws. You can't remove the death penalty laws and still claim to be obeying the Law of Moses. You break the Law of Moses by removing death penalty laws from it.

Christians are "under a law", but it is not the Law of Moses. It is the New Covenant law. It is not the same as the old covenant law, the Law of Moses.

In the new covenant law, God is merciful does not remember people's sins. Like the bible says:


12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
-- Hebrews 8:12-13
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45431181



No you are wrong! Flat out what did Jesus say when they were about to stone a woman that committed adultery!
4Q529

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08/23/2013 01:35 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
NO, the REAL reason they won't let you add that is because it is BASELESS. For all its faults, even wikipedia has standards, including corroborating documentation from legitimate sources.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Massacre at Montsegur--have you ever read it?--is a legitimate source when investigating the history of the Albigensian Crusade. And one of the things said in that book is that the Albigensians were considered the "Western Buddhists". (And what do Buddhists teach? A doctrine of 'Rebirth'. But was there any EVIDENCE of Buddhist documents with the Albigensians? NONE. So where did this Doctrine come from?)

All of that is permitted, as far as I remember, on Wikipedia.

What is NOT permitted is saying that the Doctrine of "resurrection" is a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

At that statement, all of Judaism, Christianity and Islam raises holy hell...

Because it threatens their economic interests.

At that point, Massacre at Montsegur is no longer a "legitimate" source, 'legitimate' sources being considered ONLY those that do not contradict the monotheistic DISinterpretation of the Doctrine of "resurrection".

Meanwhile, after the the Roman church exterminated tens of thousands of Albigensians (because it could NOT defeat them in debate--read the literature), it then made haste to DESTROY all of the legitimate sources for what the Albigensians believed; completely rewriting the history of those beliefs in the escalation of the totalitarian war against the Truth.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529

If you have a problem with wiki, don't go whining to me about it. Show proof that they only rejected your nonsense for financial reasons. But really, I don't care about your spat with wiki; that's between you and them.

As for your argument about why you believe 'rebirth' should be allowed, you're ignoring the fact that Christianity never taught such a thing as that 'rebirth' has anything at all to do with resurrection. YOU, not the Bible in any corner of it, are making that false connection. THIS IS ABOUT THE BIBLE, remember? You will NOT find any such teaching as 'rebirth' equated with 'resurrection'. The ONLY thing about 'being born again' is the conversation with Nicodemas where Jesus explained that it meant BORN OF THE SPIRIT, NOT BORN MULTIPLE TIMES TO RID ONESELF OF KARMA. I don't know how else to explain this to you.

Show me, oh demanding one, where Jesus said the Sadducees couldn't even ask the question or asked the wrong question.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


NOW NOW NOW we are getting some place.

You're on the right track.

WHY is the question asked by the Sadducees WRONG?

And WHERE in the Torah is that to be found?

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529

Getting some place? Please. Here, I'll paste the passage for you:
Later that day the Sadducees, who don't believe in the resurrection, came to him. They said, "Teacher, Moses said that if someone died childless, his brother was obligated to marry the widow and produce offspring for him...."

This was Jesus' response: "You are misled, because you understand neither that scripture nor the power of God."
 Quoting: Mat. 22:23--28


See exactly what they say Moses said? It is that if someone died without heirs, his brother had to marry the widow. It is first mentioned in Genesis 38:6-11, but codified in the Mosaic law in Deut. 25:5-10.

I SINCERELY hope that you understand this now, and stop this ridiculous attempt to shoehorn 'rebirth' into the Bible.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


How utterly pathetic you Christians are.

You have never had an original idea in your entire life.

You have the IDIOT Christian religious 'authorities' do your 'THINKING' for you; and, then, you just believe what you are TOLD to believe, just like the defendants at Nuremberg did what they were TOLD to do.

You can't say ANYTHING that has not already been said or written by an IDIOT Christian religious 'authority'.

You are nothing more than robots following your programming.

So, let me tell you something else you won't believe:

If someone put a mallet in your hand and placed you on Calvary at the time of the crucifixion, you would be required by Christian theology to torture Jesus to death in order to get your sorry 'donkey' into heaven...in order to keep from burning forever in hell.

This is the person you say that you 'love'.

Are you KIDDING me?

A person that you would, without any hesitation whatsoever, TORTURE to death to save your SORRY 'donkey'.

So, DON'T tell me that Christianity is any religion of "love" any more than Islam is a religion of "peace".

Michael
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 01:38 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
Wow, what a great thread. So, much of my confusion from scripture I can now pin down on Paul for the most part. I'm not saying he didn't ever have anything good to say.

But why were letters even put in the official canon. That's absurd.

Second, we essentially have two men as mentioned in the official canon of the Bible, that never died: Elijah and Enoch. Enoch has several books...yet none of them are good enough to include in the offical canon? WHY???????

We know the apostle Jude read Enoch. He quotes directly from it. And what about the Gospel of Thomas and Philip?
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 01:45 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
Wow, what a great thread. So, much of my confusion from scripture I can now pin down on Paul for the most part. I'm not saying he didn't ever have anything good to say.

But why were letters even put in the official canon. That's absurd.

Second, we essentially have two men as mentioned in the official canon of the Bible, that never died: Elijah and Enoch. Enoch has several books...yet none of them are good enough to include in the offical canon? WHY???????

We know the apostle Jude read Enoch. He quotes directly from it. And what about the Gospel of Thomas and Philip?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22407179


Paul said alot of good things, but some not so good stuff was mixed in. That's the worst kind of deceiver - hide the bad in lots of good!

Yes, I've also come to the realization that most of my previous confusion came from Paul and how he disagreed with much of the rest of the Bible.

Paul's letters wasn't considered "canon" or even "Scripture" in the first few decades after Jesus ascended. Many early believers rejected Paul's letters, including the Ebionites.
chauchat

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08/23/2013 01:53 PM

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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
...


Partly a figure of speech , but if you are one of Christ's brothers?:

Luke 22:28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck+ with me in my trials;+ 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant+ with me, for a kingdom,+ 30 that YOU may eat+ and drink at my table in my kingdom,+ and sit on thrones+ to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

31 “Simon, Simon, look! Satan+ has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat.+ 32 But I have made supplication+ for you that your faith may not give out; and you, when once you have returned, strengthen+ your brothers.
 Quoting: chauchat


So you really think Christ's sufferings were deficient, incomplete, and imperfect?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Partly a figure of speech , but if you are one of Christ's brothers?:

Luke 22:28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck+ with me in my trials;+Did their suffering Jesus' trials with him have a purpose? And is that purpose connected with what he says next? :
29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant+ with me, for a kingdom,+ 30 that YOU may eat+ and drink at my table in my kingdom,+ and sit on thrones+ to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
Wouldn't they be more empathetic judges,observing and experiencing some of how much humans can suffer and endure?
31 “Simon, Simon, look! Satan+ has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat.+ 32 But I have made supplication+ for you that your faith may not give out; and you, when once you have returned, strengthen+ your brothers.

Isn't Jesus indicating that Peter's endurance will help him strengthen his brothers? Down to this day? His suffering will not be in vain.


Why is there to be "a body of Christ"? Is Christ "the head" and the "savior of this body" not sufficient?
 Quoting: chauchat


What is this "figure of speech" that everyone keeps on talking about?

I think it is merely an excuse to try to hide away the plain meaning of Paul's words - that "Christ's sufferings were incomplete".

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


and so will you keep on saying apparently, no matter how politely and reasonably you are answered. Of course any of us reading your words are free to do our own surmising regarding the sincerity of the "righteous indignation" you seem at pains to portray.
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
...


So you really think Christ's sufferings were deficient, incomplete, and imperfect?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Partly a figure of speech , but if you are one of Christ's brothers?:

Luke 22:28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck+ with me in my trials;+Did their suffering Jesus' trials with him have a purpose? And is that purpose connected with what he says next? :
29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant+ with me, for a kingdom,+ 30 that YOU may eat+ and drink at my table in my kingdom,+ and sit on thrones+ to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
Wouldn't they be more empathetic judges,observing and experiencing some of how much humans can suffer and endure?
31 “Simon, Simon, look! Satan+ has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat.+ 32 But I have made supplication+ for you that your faith may not give out; and you, when once you have returned, strengthen+ your brothers.

Isn't Jesus indicating that Peter's endurance will help him strengthen his brothers? Down to this day? His suffering will not be in vain.


Why is there to be "a body of Christ"? Is Christ "the head" and the "savior of this body" not sufficient?
 Quoting: chauchat


What is this "figure of speech" that everyone keeps on talking about?

I think it is merely an excuse to try to hide away the plain meaning of Paul's words - that "Christ's sufferings were incomplete".

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


and so will you keep on saying apparently, no matter how politely and reasonably you are answered. Of course any of us reading your words are free to do our own surmising regarding the sincerity of the "righteous indignation" you seem at pains to portray.
 Quoting: chauchat


My question was serious, and if I come off with "righteous indignation", I apologize - that was not my intent.

I would like to know exactly what figure of speech Paul was using in his statement, and what using that figure of speech mean in terms of the meaning of his statement.
chauchat

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08/23/2013 02:27 PM

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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
You go girl!
 Quoting: chauchat


hf

And now I'm-a go sleep.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Interesting ... a girl here is teaching pro-Paul, yet she is disobeying her master?:

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law."

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Psalm 68:11 Jehovah himself gives the saying;

The women telling the good news are a large army.

""let the women keep silence in the churches:"" Is GLP "the churches"? Are you, for instance, part of the "Congregation of God"? [It's possible I guess, but probably won't seem likely to some of us.]

"" When did the “people for special possession” begin to be formed into the Christian congregation? It was at Pentecost 33 C.E. when God poured out holy spirit on the disciples assembled in Jerusalem. Later that day, Peter gave a masterful discourse to a group of Jews and proselytes. Many were stabbed to the heart over Jesus’ death; they repented and were baptized. We find in the historical report that three thousand did so, thereupon becoming part of the new and growing congregation of God. (Acts 2:1-4, 14, 37-47) It was growing because more and more Jews and proselytes accepted the fact that fleshly Israel was no longer the congregation of God. Rather, anointed Christians constituting the spiritual “Israel of God” had become the true congregation of God.—Galatians 6:16; Acts 20:28.""
[link to wol.jw.org]

At Pentecost of 33 C.E. holy spirit was poured out on both men and women. In explanation, the apostle Peter quoted Joel 2:28, 29, saying: “‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17, 18) In like manner today, women properly share in the Christian ministry, preaching from house to house and conducting home Bible studies." [link to wol.jw.org]

This is a public forum not "The Congregation" or "the churches" spoken of in the Bible.
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
You go girl!
 Quoting: chauchat


hf

And now I'm-a go sleep.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Interesting ... a girl here is teaching pro-Paul, yet she is disobeying her master?:

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law."

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Psalm 68:11 Jehovah himself gives the saying;

The women telling the good news are a large army.

""let the women keep silence in the churches:"" Is GLP "the churches"? Are you, for instance, part of the "Congregation of God"? [It's possible I guess, but probably won't seem likely to some of us.]

"" When did the “people for special possession” begin to be formed into the Christian congregation? It was at Pentecost 33 C.E. when God poured out holy spirit on the disciples assembled in Jerusalem. Later that day, Peter gave a masterful discourse to a group of Jews and proselytes. Many were stabbed to the heart over Jesus’ death; they repented and were baptized. We find in the historical report that three thousand did so, thereupon becoming part of the new and growing congregation of God. (Acts 2:1-4, 14, 37-47) It was growing because more and more Jews and proselytes accepted the fact that fleshly Israel was no longer the congregation of God. Rather, anointed Christians constituting the spiritual “Israel of God” had become the true congregation of God.—Galatians 6:16; Acts 20:28.""
[link to wol.jw.org]

At Pentecost of 33 C.E. holy spirit was poured out on both men and women. In explanation, the apostle Peter quoted Joel 2:28, 29, saying: “‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17, 18) In like manner today, women properly share in the Christian ministry, preaching from house to house and conducting home Bible studies." [link to wol.jw.org]

This is a public forum not "The Congregation" or "the churches" spoken of in the Bible.
 Quoting: chauchat


I have nothing against the prophecy of Joel & Peter's acknowledgement of Joel's prophecy. In fact, I agree with it - women of YHWH can indeed prophecy.

However, pro-Paul the Pharisee Christian women would have to follow Paul's command to keep silent in the ἐκκλησίαι&#962​;, right? The definition of ἐκκλησίαι&#962​; includes "a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly", "an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating", "an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting", etc.

Yes, this public forum is a gathering/assembly of people for the purpose of deliberating. In fact, this specific thread can be considered an assembly of Christians in a religious meeting.
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
...


hf

And now I'm-a go sleep.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Interesting ... a girl here is teaching pro-Paul, yet she is disobeying her master?:

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law."

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Psalm 68:11 Jehovah himself gives the saying;

The women telling the good news are a large army.

""let the women keep silence in the churches:"" Is GLP "the churches"? Are you, for instance, part of the "Congregation of God"? [It's possible I guess, but probably won't seem likely to some of us.]

"" When did the “people for special possession” begin to be formed into the Christian congregation? It was at Pentecost 33 C.E. when God poured out holy spirit on the disciples assembled in Jerusalem. Later that day, Peter gave a masterful discourse to a group of Jews and proselytes. Many were stabbed to the heart over Jesus’ death; they repented and were baptized. We find in the historical report that three thousand did so, thereupon becoming part of the new and growing congregation of God. (Acts 2:1-4, 14, 37-47) It was growing because more and more Jews and proselytes accepted the fact that fleshly Israel was no longer the congregation of God. Rather, anointed Christians constituting the spiritual “Israel of God” had become the true congregation of God.—Galatians 6:16; Acts 20:28.""
[link to wol.jw.org]

At Pentecost of 33 C.E. holy spirit was poured out on both men and women. In explanation, the apostle Peter quoted Joel 2:28, 29, saying: “‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17, 18) In like manner today, women properly share in the Christian ministry, preaching from house to house and conducting home Bible studies." [link to wol.jw.org]

This is a public forum not "The Congregation" or "the churches" spoken of in the Bible.
 Quoting: chauchat


I have nothing against the prophecy of Joel & Peter's acknowledgement of Joel's prophecy. In fact, I agree with it - women of YHWH can indeed prophecy.

However, pro-Paul the Pharisee Christian women would have to follow Paul's command to keep silent in the ἐκκλησίαι&#962​;, right? The definition of ἐκκλησίαι&#962​; includes "a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly", "an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating", "an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting", etc.

Yes, this public forum is a gathering/assembly of people for the purpose of deliberating. In fact, this specific thread can be considered an assembly of Christians in a religious meeting.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Sorry ἐκκλησίαι&#962​; should be "ekklesia"
chauchat

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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
""Yes, this public forum is a gathering/assembly of people for the purpose of deliberating. In fact, this specific thread can be considered an assembly of Christians in a religious meeting.""

It can be, true, "it's a free country"[< figure of speech]. However, it's not considered by me to be "an assembly of Christians in a religious meeting".

"By this all will know you are my disciples: If you have love amongst yourselves."

Last Edited by chauchat on 08/23/2013 03:02 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
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All you have to do to resolve this issue is to explain what this statement means and how it relates to the previous statements.

But don't start at the end of the reply.

Start at the beginning, by explaining what Jesus means by the statement "You are wrong."

That's all you have to do.

You can throw stones all day long against the Truth; but, until you explain precisely where I am in error--until you can explain the flow of the argument and the specific relevance of each thing Jesus says--it is of no avail.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


1. You are in error because you do not know the power of God, or
You are in error because you do not know the scriptures
2. Sadducees did not believe in resurrection
3. Sadducees gave him an example concerning the physical
resurrection of the dead, 7 brothers married to 1 woman.
4. Sadducees, who did not believe in resurrection, asked Jesus whose wife she will be upon resurrection
5. He confirms resurrection
He denies the resurrection to involve marriage
30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven
6. He denies that they are dead to God. When He told Moses (after the physical deaths of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) that "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" He was confirming that to God - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still living, not dead. Their physical bodies had long returned to the dust, but they themselves still lived.

We see this in the example and why Moses commanded that a brother of a dead man was to marry the widow and raise up children for his dead brother. The woman spiritually was one with the dead husband, and therefore any children born to the brother are still the dead brothers lineage. In this manner, as the author of creation, every person living in the 'mind' of God comes into this world. Just because one brother dies does not mean that his descendants do not come forth into the world. They do.

God is a God of the Living because like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, at the time of Moses, long after their physical death, they still are living. He is still their God. And they will receive a new body, what that will be we do not know, but just as we see that Jesus showed a body after resurrection which was somehow different, those too in Christ will receive such.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45557573

Most excellent response. Thorough and Biblically-sound. The benefit will be for someone else however, because 4q529 will have none of it. There is no point in answering his questions. They are not questions. They are self-assertions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45595821


"Biblically-sound" means NOTHING when Paul contradicts Jesus.

Let me tell you something.

The last time I met so many sniveling cowards all in one place was when I challenged the Jesus Seminar to a private debate on the Doctrine of "resurrection" in October, 1986--people are never allowed to address the general meeting; but, somehow, I convinced the moderator.

There was a murmur around the room and I was then asked "What is the other side of the argument?" by a Ph.D. theologian from Texas.

I told him: "The Truth. That Jesus presents a figurative description of the revelation of the memories of previous lives in his reply to the Sadducees"; then telling them that I would wager some $8,000 that they would lose the debate...even though they would be the ones to decide who had won.

They declined, but...

Some 11 years later, Marcus Borg, a founding member of the Jesus Seminar that I had addressed that day, wrote a book entitled Jesus and Buddha--the Parallel Sayings (look it up) in which he wrote that the similarity between the Teaching of Jesus and the teaching of the Buddha most probably derived 'from a similarity in religious experience'--his words; but never once acknowledging my statements to him from 1986. (What that 'similarity' was was the receiving of the memories of previous lives--duhhhh.)

You Christians--every one of you--remind me of the Cardinal who was so terrified that he refused even to look through Galileo's telescope, calling it an "instrument of the devil".

You Christians are terrified of looking too closely and carefully at the reply of Jesus to the Sadducees. You are nothing but sniveling cowards.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529



While I'm not 100% with you in your theology (if you could link or provide some good books I would love to read up on it), I admire your openness and willingness to question the Christian doctrine. I often disagree with Christians because I was not brought up Christian, but studied it from an outsider perspective, so I was never exposed to the usual expositions from pastors or priests.
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
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None.

Why do you hear:

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ

And yet, it actually states

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church

You are hearing something that is not there. Therefore the anti-Paul bias that you bring is clearly casting a veil on your understanding, your hearing. The verse does not state what you think it says. I have bolded the difference for you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45585740

"that which is lacking" is "the afflictions of Christ". "fill up on my part" - where? - "in my flesh".

NOT "that which is lacking in my flesh". This reading makes no sense, as "of the afflictions of Christ ... for his body's sake" would not fit in the sentence otherwise.

You are hearing something that is not there. Therefore the pro-Paul bias that you bring is clearly casting a veil on your understanding, your hearing. The verse does not state what you think it says

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


This was your question
"How did Paul's sufferings make up for what Christ's sufferings lacked, for me?"

He did not say that Christ's sufferings lacked.

He lacked them, in his flesh.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45585740

How does "of the afflictions of Christ" "for his body's sake" fit into your rearranged statement then?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


I did not rearrange the statement, but merely pointed out that you are the one that keeps declaring that Paul;
"claims to make up for what Christ lacked in his sacrifice"

Paul is not saying that, so please stop accusing him of it

It says no such thing. It states that he is filling up on that which is lacking of Christ's affliction in his own flesh, for the sake of Christ's body, which is his church.

Surely if we are to die to the old man in order to be transformed into the image of Christ then that would be beneficial to the congregation.

Nobody is your enemy here. All of us can read something wrongly and later be corrected. I do, and am corrected. But I will tell you again, preconceived assumptions like already concluding that Paul is Satan WILL influence how you read a sentence. This verse is proof positive. An honest and humble appraisal by you will reveal it. I have one in my own family who rejects Paul. I can see the progression which happens. Everything and everyone eventually gets rejected. Paul, then Luke, then Peter, then James, then only the three gospels.....then Jesus Christ. They fall in love with Moses and can see nothing else. They say that the old wine is better.
4Q529

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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
While I'm not 100% with you in your theology (if you could link or provide some good books I would love to read up on it), I admire your openness and willingness to question the Christian doctrine. I often disagree with Christians because I was not brought up Christian, but studied it from an outsider perspective, so I was never exposed to the usual expositions from pastors or priests.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45636231


I have a website on Doctrine and Prophecy at:

[link to unsealing-the-seven-seals.blogspot.com]

I also have a website on consciousness and Revelation:

[link to science-of-consciousness.blogspot.com]

and, also a YouTube channel: "4Q529", which is the designation of a Dead Sea Scroll entitled The Words of Michael.

I have maybe 2 or 3 recordings going into detail on the reply of Jesus to the Sadducees.

But the argument still ramifies in other directions, even today.

Michael

Last Edited by 4Q529 on 08/23/2013 03:20 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
You go girl!
 Quoting: chauchat


hf

And now I'm-a go sleep.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Interesting ... a girl here is teaching pro-Paul, yet she is disobeying her master?:

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law."

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Psalm 68:11 Jehovah himself gives the saying;

The women telling the good news are a large army.

""let the women keep silence in the churches:"" Is GLP "the churches"? Are you, for instance, part of the "Congregation of God"? [It's possible I guess, but probably won't seem likely to some of us.]

"" When did the “people for special possession” begin to be formed into the Christian congregation? It was at Pentecost 33 C.E. when God poured out holy spirit on the disciples assembled in Jerusalem. Later that day, Peter gave a masterful discourse to a group of Jews and proselytes. Many were stabbed to the heart over Jesus’ death; they repented and were baptized. We find in the historical report that three thousand did so, thereupon becoming part of the new and growing congregation of God. (Acts 2:1-4, 14, 37-47) It was growing because more and more Jews and proselytes accepted the fact that fleshly Israel was no longer the congregation of God. Rather, anointed Christians constituting the spiritual “Israel of God” had become the true congregation of God.—Galatians 6:16; Acts 20:28.""
[link to wol.jw.org]

At Pentecost of 33 C.E. holy spirit was poured out on both men and women. In explanation, the apostle Peter quoted Joel 2:28, 29, saying: “‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17, 18) In like manner today, women properly share in the Christian ministry, preaching from house to house and conducting home Bible studies." [link to wol.jw.org]

This is a public forum not "The Congregation" or "the churches" spoken of in the Bible.
 Quoting: chauchat


If I may add to your well cited scripture.


Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35


Now read the following also contained within 1 Corinthians 14

V6 "Now, brothers and sisters....v9 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying?"

V20 "20 Brothers and sisters,......v23 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues,"

V26"26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation"


"Women should remain silent in the churches" does not mean what the poster in red thinks it means. The answer is contained within the same chapter. Paul is in full agreement to the scriptures that you cited.
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 03:51 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
...

"that which is lacking" is "the afflictions of Christ". "fill up on my part" - where? - "in my flesh".

NOT "that which is lacking in my flesh". This reading makes no sense, as "of the afflictions of Christ ... for his body's sake" would not fit in the sentence otherwise.

You are hearing something that is not there. Therefore the pro-Paul bias that you bring is clearly casting a veil on your understanding, your hearing. The verse does not state what you think it says

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


This was your question
"How did Paul's sufferings make up for what Christ's sufferings lacked, for me?"

He did not say that Christ's sufferings lacked.

He lacked them, in his flesh.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45585740

How does "of the afflictions of Christ" "for his body's sake" fit into your rearranged statement then?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


I did not rearrange the statement, but merely pointed out that you are the one that keeps declaring that Paul;
"claims to make up for what Christ lacked in his sacrifice"

Paul is not saying that, so please stop accusing him of it

It says no such thing. It states that he is filling up on that which is lacking of Christ's affliction in his own flesh, for the sake of Christ's body, which is his church.

Surely if we are to die to the old man in order to be transformed into the image of Christ then that would be beneficial to the congregation.

Nobody is your enemy here. All of us can read something wrongly and later be corrected. I do, and am corrected. But I will tell you again, preconceived assumptions like already concluding that Paul is Satan WILL influence how you read a sentence. This verse is proof positive. An honest and humble appraisal by you will reveal it. I have one in my own family who rejects Paul. I can see the progression which happens. Everything and everyone eventually gets rejected. Paul, then Luke, then Peter, then James, then only the three gospels.....then Jesus Christ. They fall in love with Moses and can see nothing else. They say that the old wine is better.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45626409


I was established in protestant Christianity for 20+ years. I was also a teacher in it for 10+ years. Information came along about Paul, and I was willing to consider it with an open mind and prayer. After years of weighing both sides with lots of daily prayer on the subject, I've settled on the side that Paul was false. I would not say that my ideas about Paul are "preconceived" - I would say they were very, very carefully considered.

Rejecting Paul does not automatically mean rejecting Luke, Peter, James, or Christ. One example does not make that true for the rest of us.

Your statements are pro-Paul, and perhaps you have a preconceived notion that Paul is genuine. Perhaps that will influence how you read a sentence. This verse is proof positive. An honest and humble appraisal by you will reveal it.
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
^Agreed. And this Paul is a liar stuff... What the.. why? Paul's entire life was dedicated to God to the best of his understanding and experience. So Paul lies to serve the God that has always and only said "You shall not lie."?! And Paul's lies are to tell us believe in Christ and serve each other! What a horrible liar! Absurd. Madness. I can only think they must be psychotic Jew-haters. What else is there?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45595821


Agree. Except they seem to be lovers of the law, just like the Pharisees, since they keep calling Paul an antinomian.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Jesus said that the Pharisees were WEAK on the Law. They followed their own traditions instead of God's Law. (for example Matthew 23:23)

Paul, on the other hand, claims that he was a Pharisee and kept the Law perfectly. (see Phl 3:5-6)

Christians today forgot what Jesus said, and just listens to Paul. They think that the Pharisees kept the law closely, when in fact, they didn't.

Paul was an antinomian.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111



Thank you! The Pharisees followed what is called the oral law, the law of man, or the law of the elders. This became the Talmud, which modern Jews follow because they are Pharisees. Jesus condemned them for this, for twisting the laws of the Father.
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08/23/2013 03:53 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
...


hf

And now I'm-a go sleep.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Interesting ... a girl here is teaching pro-Paul, yet she is disobeying her master?:

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law."

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Psalm 68:11 Jehovah himself gives the saying;

The women telling the good news are a large army.

""let the women keep silence in the churches:"" Is GLP "the churches"? Are you, for instance, part of the "Congregation of God"? [It's possible I guess, but probably won't seem likely to some of us.]

"" When did the “people for special possession” begin to be formed into the Christian congregation? It was at Pentecost 33 C.E. when God poured out holy spirit on the disciples assembled in Jerusalem. Later that day, Peter gave a masterful discourse to a group of Jews and proselytes. Many were stabbed to the heart over Jesus’ death; they repented and were baptized. We find in the historical report that three thousand did so, thereupon becoming part of the new and growing congregation of God. (Acts 2:1-4, 14, 37-47) It was growing because more and more Jews and proselytes accepted the fact that fleshly Israel was no longer the congregation of God. Rather, anointed Christians constituting the spiritual “Israel of God” had become the true congregation of God.—Galatians 6:16; Acts 20:28.""
[link to wol.jw.org]

At Pentecost of 33 C.E. holy spirit was poured out on both men and women. In explanation, the apostle Peter quoted Joel 2:28, 29, saying: “‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17, 18) In like manner today, women properly share in the Christian ministry, preaching from house to house and conducting home Bible studies." [link to wol.jw.org]

This is a public forum not "The Congregation" or "the churches" spoken of in the Bible.
 Quoting: chauchat


If I may add to your well cited scripture.


Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35


Now read the following also contained within 1 Corinthians 14

V6 "Now, brothers and sisters....v9 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying?"

V20 "20 Brothers and sisters,......v23 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues,"

V26"26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation"


"Women should remain silent in the churches" does not mean what the poster in red thinks it means. The answer is contained within the same chapter. Paul is in full agreement to the scriptures that you cited.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45626409


Quoting other verses where Paul says the opposite to what he said elsewhere just gives additional support to the idea that he was the "double-minded" man that James warned about in his epistle, and also that he was the "Balaam" that Jesus warned about in Revelation.

Remember, Balaam (of which Paul is a type of in Revelation 2) spoke both truth and lies!
chauchat

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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
...


hf

And now I'm-a go sleep.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Interesting ... a girl here is teaching pro-Paul, yet she is disobeying her master?:

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law."

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Psalm 68:11 Jehovah himself gives the saying;

The women telling the good news are a large army.

""let the women keep silence in the churches:"" Is GLP "the churches"? Are you, for instance, part of the "Congregation of God"? [It's possible I guess, but probably won't seem likely to some of us.]

"" When did the “people for special possession” begin to be formed into the Christian congregation? It was at Pentecost 33 C.E. when God poured out holy spirit on the disciples assembled in Jerusalem. Later that day, Peter gave a masterful discourse to a group of Jews and proselytes. Many were stabbed to the heart over Jesus’ death; they repented and were baptized. We find in the historical report that three thousand did so, thereupon becoming part of the new and growing congregation of God. (Acts 2:1-4, 14, 37-47) It was growing because more and more Jews and proselytes accepted the fact that fleshly Israel was no longer the congregation of God. Rather, anointed Christians constituting the spiritual “Israel of God” had become the true congregation of God.—Galatians 6:16; Acts 20:28.""
[link to wol.jw.org]

At Pentecost of 33 C.E. holy spirit was poured out on both men and women. In explanation, the apostle Peter quoted Joel 2:28, 29, saying: “‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17, 18) In like manner today, women properly share in the Christian ministry, preaching from house to house and conducting home Bible studies." [link to wol.jw.org]

This is a public forum not "The Congregation" or "the churches" spoken of in the Bible.
 Quoting: chauchat


If I may add to your well cited scripture.


Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35


Now read the following also contained within 1 Corinthians 14

V6 "Now, brothers and sisters....v9 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying?"

V20 "20 Brothers and sisters,......v23 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues,"

V26"26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation"


"Women should remain silent in the churches" does not mean what the poster in red thinks it means. The answer is contained within the same chapter. Paul is in full agreement to the scriptures that you cited.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45626409


I fully agree with this and everything you've said on this thread and very much admire the way you say it [tears in my eyes]. And I would like to echo "No one here is your enemy." to #27752111.
In fact, now that I may have been a little cold to him, I'm worried about him, and would like to say I hope he can separate out anything that might be beneficial from anything I may have said too harshly.

And in case anyone's thinking, "[shudder] Thy tears are womanish!" [Wm. Shakespeare] , I'm a "girl" too, like K2TC.

Last Edited by chauchat on 08/23/2013 03:57 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
^Agreed. And this Paul is a liar stuff... What the.. why? Paul's entire life was dedicated to God to the best of his understanding and experience. So Paul lies to serve the God that has always and only said "You shall not lie."?! And Paul's lies are to tell us believe in Christ and serve each other! What a horrible liar! Absurd. Madness. I can only think they must be psychotic Jew-haters. What else is there?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45595821


Agree. Except they seem to be lovers of the law, just like the Pharisees, since they keep calling Paul an antinomian.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Jesus said that the Pharisees were WEAK on the Law. They followed their own traditions instead of God's Law. (for example Matthew 23:23)

Paul, on the other hand, claims that he was a Pharisee and kept the Law perfectly. (see Phl 3:5-6)

Christians today forgot what Jesus said, and just listens to Paul. They think that the Pharisees kept the law closely, when in fact, they didn't.

Paul was an antinomian.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Thank you! The Pharisees followed what is called the oral law, the law of man, or the law of the elders. This became the Talmud, which modern Jews follow because they are Pharisees. Jesus condemned them for this, for twisting the laws of the Father.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45636231


Agreed. Today's Reform/Conservative/Orthodox Jews are the descendants of the Pharisees. They've changed God's Laws into what they want them to be.

What's shocking is that most of today's Christians are also descendants of the Pharisees! They follow their rabbi, Paul the Pharisee's anti-God's Law reinterpretation of Jesus's gospel. They also change God's Laws into what they want them to be.
Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2013 04:00 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
...


Interesting ... a girl here is teaching pro-Paul, yet she is disobeying her master?:

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law."

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Psalm 68:11 Jehovah himself gives the saying;

The women telling the good news are a large army.

""let the women keep silence in the churches:"" Is GLP "the churches"? Are you, for instance, part of the "Congregation of God"? [It's possible I guess, but probably won't seem likely to some of us.]

"" When did the “people for special possession” begin to be formed into the Christian congregation? It was at Pentecost 33 C.E. when God poured out holy spirit on the disciples assembled in Jerusalem. Later that day, Peter gave a masterful discourse to a group of Jews and proselytes. Many were stabbed to the heart over Jesus’ death; they repented and were baptized. We find in the historical report that three thousand did so, thereupon becoming part of the new and growing congregation of God. (Acts 2:1-4, 14, 37-47) It was growing because more and more Jews and proselytes accepted the fact that fleshly Israel was no longer the congregation of God. Rather, anointed Christians constituting the spiritual “Israel of God” had become the true congregation of God.—Galatians 6:16; Acts 20:28.""
[link to wol.jw.org]

At Pentecost of 33 C.E. holy spirit was poured out on both men and women. In explanation, the apostle Peter quoted Joel 2:28, 29, saying: “‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.’” (Acts 2:17, 18) In like manner today, women properly share in the Christian ministry, preaching from house to house and conducting home Bible studies." [link to wol.jw.org]

This is a public forum not "The Congregation" or "the churches" spoken of in the Bible.
 Quoting: chauchat


If I may add to your well cited scripture.


Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35


Now read the following also contained within 1 Corinthians 14

V6 "Now, brothers and sisters....v9 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying?"

V20 "20 Brothers and sisters,......v23 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues,"

V26"26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation"


"Women should remain silent in the churches" does not mean what the poster in red thinks it means. The answer is contained within the same chapter. Paul is in full agreement to the scriptures that you cited.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45626409


I fully agree with this and everything you've said on this thread and very much admire the way you say it [tears in my eyes]. And I would like to echo "No one here is your enemy." to #27752111.
In fact, now that I may have been a little cold to him, I'm worried about him, and would like to say I hope he can separate out anything that might be beneficial from anything I may have said too harshly.

And in case anyone's thinking, "[shudder] Thy tears are womanish!" [Wm. Shakespeare] , I'm a "girl" too, like K2TC.
 Quoting: chauchat


I don't believe you're my enemy, and thank you. We are both trying to follow God and Jesus the best we can. I hope you can understand that too.
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
...


This was your question
"How did Paul's sufferings make up for what Christ's sufferings lacked, for me?"

He did not say that Christ's sufferings lacked.

He lacked them, in his flesh.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45585740

How does "of the afflictions of Christ" "for his body's sake" fit into your rearranged statement then?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


I did not rearrange the statement, but merely pointed out that you are the one that keeps declaring that Paul;
"claims to make up for what Christ lacked in his sacrifice"

Paul is not saying that, so please stop accusing him of it

It says no such thing. It states that he is filling up on that which is lacking of Christ's affliction in his own flesh, for the sake of Christ's body, which is his church.

Surely if we are to die to the old man in order to be transformed into the image of Christ then that would be beneficial to the congregation.

Nobody is your enemy here. All of us can read something wrongly and later be corrected. I do, and am corrected. But I will tell you again, preconceived assumptions like already concluding that Paul is Satan WILL influence how you read a sentence. This verse is proof positive. An honest and humble appraisal by you will reveal it. I have one in my own family who rejects Paul. I can see the progression which happens. Everything and everyone eventually gets rejected. Paul, then Luke, then Peter, then James, then only the three gospels.....then Jesus Christ. They fall in love with Moses and can see nothing else. They say that the old wine is better.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45626409


I was established in protestant Christianity for 20+ years. I was also a teacher in it for 10+ years. Information came along about Paul, and I was willing to consider it with an open mind and prayer. After years of weighing both sides with lots of daily prayer on the subject, I've settled on the side that Paul was false. I would not say that my ideas about Paul are "preconceived" - I would say they were very, very carefully considered.

Rejecting Paul does not automatically mean rejecting Luke, Peter, James, or Christ. One example does not make that true for the rest of us.

Your statements are pro-Paul, and perhaps you have a preconceived notion that Paul is genuine. Perhaps that will influence how you read a sentence. This verse is proof positive. An honest and humble appraisal by you will reveal it.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27752111


Everybody has a different background. On this one set of scripture, and I speak of this one alone, you were in error. Your error was in twisting this scripture to mean that Christ's afflictions were lacking. You have ascribed false words to Paul, words that he did not speak. Think of Peter's warning. I know that you also dismiss 2 Peter too so that caution will probably go unheeded. You twisted scripture.
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08/23/2013 04:05 PM
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Re: The biggest blunder in the church for years!! The Paul Deception!
Wow, what a great thread. So, much of my confusion from scripture I can now pin down on Paul for the most part. I'm not saying he didn't ever have anything good to say.

But why were letters even put in the official canon. That's absurd.

Second, we essentially have two men as mentioned in the official canon of the Bible, that never died: Elijah and Enoch. Enoch has several books...yet none of them are good enough to include in the offical canon? WHY???????

We know the apostle Jude read Enoch. He quotes directly from it. And what about the Gospel of Thomas and Philip?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22407179



Paul said some true things, but it's the falsehood he taught along with them that expose him. Satan will try to sell half truths and falsehoods built on true premises.

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