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Math of Salvation

 
MagTog
The King of Greenland

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09/21/2013 02:26 PM

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Math of Salvation
Before you read this, just know that neither God nor any Angels came down and made themselves manifest to tell me I was right...so I may be wrong. Debate is welcome.

Many people have a hard time believing Christianity. Many cannot attach themselves to the faith without more in-depth answers to puzzling questions the Bible leaves us with. For these types, it is not enough to follow emotionally based appeals to a state where they can proclaim that they believe, but they must analytically examine the Bible and understand it through the prism of logic in order to come to the faith. That being said, I do not think there is a great enough effort to reach out to these folks, and I also do not think that we spend enough time enriching and strengthening our own faiths through the type of thinking that would appeal to these people. Some people in the faith actually believe that it cannot be explained or understood within the constraints of logic – at least not all the time - but that because God is God, he sometimes steps outside the laws of logic and miraculously provides truths that one can only come to believe through faith – not logic. With these people, I disagree. To me, God is Love, the Creator, the Origin of the Universe and That Which Separated (Divided) somethingness from nothingness, when all there was was nothingness. God is the Law Maker, the Promise Keeper, incapable of contradicting himself, and ultimately, the Origin and Ultimate Result of Perfect Logic.

Anyhow, I'm not going to go further down the path of explaining my understanding of God right now. I mainly intend to show you the “Math of Salvation” through Christ.

One of the big questions people seem to have about Salvation, is “How?”. How does one man save the souls of ALL people on earth? How does that make sense in terms of numbers? How is it that the penalty for ALL of our sins can be canceled out by the death and resurrection of Jesus?

Let's examine the factors involved.

First, no impurity can enter Heaven. Just one sin committed will make you impure. Having sinned only once in our lives, we are eternally separated from God, and the added – or same – punishment is eternal damnation. Also, remember that we all came into this world with original sin, and this sin also makes us impure. The Bible tells us that original sin passes down from the biological father, not the mother. Therefore, as Jesus was born of a virgin birth, he was free of original sin.

Second, before Christ arrived, the Jews (God's Chosen People) would atone for their sins through the sacrifice of blood (animals). I do not really know how that kind of atonement would work, but it seems that those judged to be righteous (and I would assume that means generally “atoned for and of a good heart, action and love for God”), would not go to Heaven, but to “Abraham's Bosom”.

Third, the original Law of the Jews and the only official System of Governance and Law for them, has been, and will always be, their Theocracy. This means Rule By God. The laws given to the Jews by God were both the laws on earth for them and the spiritual laws they were bound to. They were the same. To put it in today's terms, if our laws in America were the Laws that God gave us, it would mean that not paying your taxes, or running a red light, or smoking in a non-smoking area, would not only get you in trouble with the system of law enforcement on earth, but it would also be counted as a sin in heaven.

Fourth, in the Law of the Jews (God's Law for them), you could atone for your crimes/sins, and equally as important in my mind, you could intercede in the punishment of another's crimes/sins. An understanding of intercession is crucial. Example: Say you stole a loaf of bread and the punishment for that is that you have a hand cut off. You're judged to be guilty, and then sentenced. Then, because I have not committed the same crime/sin, I can step in and say that I want my hand cut off as a substitute for yours. In that case, you, the criminal/sinner, would obviously have to agree to the offer made by me. I can't just step in and have my hand cut off without your knowledge and acceptance, and count that as having paid your penalty. This is why you must acknowledge your sins through repentance and accept the gift of salvation.

Numbers play a part here. If you stole two loaves of bread and the punishment is then to have two hands cut off, to intercede fully, I would have to offer up both my hands to be cut off for yours. What happens then if you stole 3? I cannot step in and have 3 hands cut off. I only have 2. You only have 2 as well, so I don't know how they would handle that...but I hope you're getting the gist of this... On Earth, punishments are mathematically linked. One for One. What then can I do if the total punishment for your crime is death? I would then have to give my life to intercede for yours.

The punishments on Earth are not the same as the spiritual punishment. As you may recall, the only spiritual punishment for us is eternal damnation (there are degrees within, but it's still all eternal damnation) - and this is for having sinned only once. If you sin twice, the total punishment is the punishment for the first sin plus the punishment for the second sin. This is where more math starts to kick in. Remember, God is the God of Logic...

An eternity (as in eternal damnation) is an infinite amount of time. Mathematically then, we need to treat eternity like its numerical equivalent (or conceptual, I guess), “Infinity”. Now, what is infinity + 1? That's right, it's infinity. What's infinity times 2 (This would be the amount of time in damnation you would spend for having sinned twice)? Infinity times 2 is also infinity. What is infinity times infinity? Infinity. Infinity to the infinitieth power? Infinity. Get the idea?

So, what could I do to intercede for your sins, spiritually speaking? Well, nothing. I have sinned, and I was tainted from the start with original sin. Plus, because I have sinned once (and much more than once, obviously), I am just as guilty and damned as the rest of mankind. If, however, I had never sinned and had not original sin, I could take on the one sin you have (let's just say you only have one sin to pay for), and I would be damned eternally, and you would not. What if you had committed two sins? Could I pay the penalty for BOTH of your sins, had I never been marked by sin? Absolutely. The spiritual penalty of committing one sin is the same as having committed two, as eternal damnation + eternal damnation = eternal damnation. As a matter of fact, lets say you have committed 8,755,932,001,234 sins in your life. Could I intercede for you spiritually if I had never sinned? Yes. The math is the same. The conditions for it to work would be that I would have never sinned, and that the intercession can be done in terms of the Law. Basically, the system of law under which I would intercede would actually have to have the authority or ability to be not just an Earth-law, but it would also have to be Spiritual-law, which is what we find through the Law - the Theocracy - of the Jews.

So now, what if you had committed an infinite number of sins (not recommended), could you be saved? Yes! The math is still the same. Would I, the person who has never sinned, be able to save two people though? Even if they had both committed an infinite number of sins? Yes! The penalty is the same. As a matter of mathematical fact, if I had never been touched by sin, and the system of law I acted under had authority spiritually to let me intercede, then I could save an infinite number of people even if they had each committed an infinite number of sins. I could intercede for them all because the penalty I would pay is the same penalty I would pay for saving just one person from one of their sins. This is why Jesus is The Perfect Lamb, the Perfect Sacrifice for all our sins. The atonement by his blood and the intercession he gives us as a gift is mathematically perfect to save us from our sins. (It is perfect in many other ways besides just mathematically, as well...but I digress...)

You will never encounter a person on Earth whose love, grace, and mercy exceeds that of God's. He has done His part, it is now up to us to accept His love, grace, mercy, and salvation – and if we have already accepted this, then to thank God and revel in His grace and love, and to love Him back (as you should anyway, even if you had not been given or accepted salvation...because as you know...He kind of gave you everything you have already, and all of existence owes itself to Him).

I am definitely not perfect. I however do not think that my imperfections and unfitness allow me to stand on the sidelines and neglect the Great Commission - the duties I have as a Christian to speak the word. I am a horrible sinner, but my life and my heart are overjoyed by the Love, Grace, Mercy, and Perfection of God and His Plans, and this is why I am sharing what I know. So that you may feel what I feel, no matter what kind of vile sinner you think you may be. God Loves you and gives you salvation freely. You're covered if you accept the gift. It's been mathematically proven.

P.S. The Judeo-Christian faith is the only one that is Mathematically Perfect that I know of. It's been hidden by inattentiveness and a lack of mathematical understanding on our part for thousands of years (infinity as a mathematical concept has only been understood pretty recently). I've studied many other religions, and I cannot find another religion which even makes a real attempt to be mathematical. Most others just try to emulate the mystery and power which is contained in the Bible, but none understood that the Bible was mathematically perfect, so none (as far as I can tell) emulated that. The End.
Anonymous Coward
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09/21/2013 02:28 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
2 + 2 = 5
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

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09/21/2013 02:41 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Small posts are a problem for me. Sorry.
MagTog (OP)
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09/21/2013 02:44 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
2 + 2 = 5
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


Only if Obama approves.
rekameohsnad

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09/21/2013 02:49 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
2 + 2 = 5
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


2 and 2 = 5

human fetal heartbeat begins 22 days after conception, which is the 5th week of pregnancy


22 days = 5 weeks
Anonymous Coward
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09/21/2013 02:53 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
2 + 2 = 5
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


2 and 2 = 5

human fetal heartbeat begins 22 days after conception, which is the 5th week of pregnancy


22 days = 5 weeks
 Quoting: rekameohsnad


5 weeks, 7 days in a week. 7 * 5 = 35.
5 is the sum of 2+ 2, so take the 5 off the end, left with 3.
3, and 22 days to heartbeat = 322
322 = Skull & Bones = ILLUMINATI!!!!

ahhh
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

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09/21/2013 03:04 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
2 + 2 = 5
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


2 and 2 = 5

human fetal heartbeat begins 22 days after conception, which is the 5th week of pregnancy


22 days = 5 weeks
 Quoting: rekameohsnad


5 weeks, 7 days in a week. 7 * 5 = 35.
5 is the sum of 2+ 2, so take the 5 off the end, left with 3.
3, and 22 days to heartbeat = 322
322 = Skull & Bones = ILLUMINATI!!!!

ahhh
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


That's some impressive math right there.
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

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09/21/2013 03:14 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

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09/21/2013 03:33 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


Ok...well, the thread has been posted. Guess it'll just sit here until it becomes useful in some conversation.
Anonymous Coward
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09/21/2013 03:34 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


The bible is bullshit
SavedByGraceAlone

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09/21/2013 03:41 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


AMEN!
SavedByGraceAlone
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

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09/21/2013 03:45 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


The bible is bullshit
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8852527


No it isn't. You just don't understand it.
Anonymous Coward
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09/21/2013 03:48 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


The bible is bullshit
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8852527


No it isn't. You just don't understand it.
 Quoting: MagTog


I was given a bible in 1977, dated, inscription, very personal gift, for successfully going through all the training, being confirmed, official member of the church, etc..

In 2009 I finally read the whole thing.
Then I threw it in the trash.
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

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09/21/2013 03:48 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


AMEN!
 Quoting: SavedByGraceAlone


Thanks. Speaking of "Saved By Grace", do you believe (as I do) that the only way to be saved is through Christ?

I used to think there were other ways, but when I understood the math and legality of what was done through Christ's intercession, I knew that the only way was through Him.

Also, do you think that salvation can be taken away, lost or forfeited?
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

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09/21/2013 03:56 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


The bible is bullshit
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8852527


No it isn't. You just don't understand it.
 Quoting: MagTog


I was given a bible in 1977, dated, inscription, very personal gift, for successfully going through all the training, being confirmed, official member of the church, etc..

In 2009 I finally read the whole thing.
Then I threw it in the trash.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


I did the same.

For about 9 years, I left the faith in a big way. I became suicidal and didn't see the point in much of anything.

I kept investigating other religions and philosophies and would just sit for dozens of hours every week thinking about my purpose and the point of it all.

I went to school for Math and Computer Science. Came out believing in the Bible and Salvation through Christ again, because of the education I got in math.

Unfortunately, I also came out of my 9 years in the wilderness with some bad habits and a kind of disconnect from the type of Christians I was able to easily interact with previously... but I'm still trying to improve...

Question:
Why did you throw it in the trash?
Anonymous Coward
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09/21/2013 04:03 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
...


The bible is bullshit
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8852527


No it isn't. You just don't understand it.
 Quoting: MagTog


I was given a bible in 1977, dated, inscription, very personal gift, for successfully going through all the training, being confirmed, official member of the church, etc..

In 2009 I finally read the whole thing.
Then I threw it in the trash.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


I did the same.

For about 9 years, I left the faith in a big way. I became suicidal and didn't see the point in much of anything.

I kept investigating other religions and philosophies and would just sit for dozens of hours every week thinking about my purpose and the point of it all.

I went to school for Math and Computer Science. Came out believing in the Bible and Salvation through Christ again, because of the education I got in math.

Unfortunately, I also came out of my 9 years in the wilderness with some bad habits and a kind of disconnect from the type of Christians I was able to easily interact with previously... but I'm still trying to improve...

Question:
Why did you throw it in the trash?
 Quoting: MagTog


I realized, it's a collection of stories. Probably written by either delusional men, or men that never intended it to be taken literally word for word. It has been translated and re-translated over and over, parts are missing, much has probably been deliberately altered for various agendas, and most of it simply defies any logic or reason.

It is a metaphorical story. And not a very good one. And I'm certainly not going to completely change and devote my life to a book like that. (or any book for that matter).

If there is an ultimate power in the universe that created everything, I expect it would want us to use the brains it gave us to THINK, and reason, and work things out for ourselves, and explore and discover, and make mistakes, and all the things that go into being a living thing.

Not obsess over some cryptic garbage in an ancient book, and spend our entire lives trying to decipher it.

.
Anonymous Coward
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09/21/2013 04:06 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


OP, this is how I see it too, for it makes to me much sense.
Although I am not confident relying on my own understanding.

Sorry for not being able to come up with something to add to what you've said.
MagTog (OP)
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09/21/2013 04:39 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
...


No it isn't. You just don't understand it.
 Quoting: MagTog


I was given a bible in 1977, dated, inscription, very personal gift, for successfully going through all the training, being confirmed, official member of the church, etc..

In 2009 I finally read the whole thing.
Then I threw it in the trash.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


I did the same.

For about 9 years, I left the faith in a big way. I became suicidal and didn't see the point in much of anything.

I kept investigating other religions and philosophies and would just sit for dozens of hours every week thinking about my purpose and the point of it all.

I went to school for Math and Computer Science. Came out believing in the Bible and Salvation through Christ again, because of the education I got in math.

Unfortunately, I also came out of my 9 years in the wilderness with some bad habits and a kind of disconnect from the type of Christians I was able to easily interact with previously... but I'm still trying to improve...

Question:
Why did you throw it in the trash?
 Quoting: MagTog


I realized, it's a collection of stories. Probably written by either delusional men, or men that never intended it to be taken literally word for word. It has been translated and re-translated over and over, parts are missing, much has probably been deliberately altered for various agendas, and most of it simply defies any logic or reason.

It is a metaphorical story. And not a very good one. And I'm certainly not going to completely change and devote my life to a book like that. (or any book for that matter).

If there is an ultimate power in the universe that created everything, I expect it would want us to use the brains it gave us to THINK, and reason, and work things out for ourselves, and explore and discover, and make mistakes, and all the things that go into being a living thing.

Not obsess over some cryptic garbage in an ancient book, and spend our entire lives trying to decipher it.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


What do you think it was like for Christians before the Bible was compiled? Many churches only had segments of what we now call the Bible. I think the one thing central to all of those old churches was their belief in the gospels...the rest was an aid to help put Christ and Salvation in context.

I don't think ALL of the Bible needs to be known, understood, or even examined to gain salvation.

For me, the proof is in the Math of Salvation. Truly, even if I personally saw a person writing the Bible and the person told me he/she was making everything up, I would still believe the Salvation through Christ that randomly came from this person's pen...just because the math and logic are perfect. God perfect.

I have my doubts about parts of the Bible too. Right now, I'm struggling with Paul, and trying to determine whether his involvement was legit.

I don't think it matters all that much what Paul said though. What's of the most importance is what Jesus said and what he did. The other words, in my opinion, can be ignored.
Anonymous Coward
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09/21/2013 04:42 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
Before you read this, just know that neither God nor any Angels came down and made themselves manifest to tell me I was right...so I may be wrong. Debate is welcome.

Many people have a hard time believing Christianity. Many cannot attach themselves to the faith without more in-depth answers to puzzling questions the Bible leaves us with. For these types, it is not enough to follow emotionally based appeals to a state where they can proclaim that they believe, but they must analytically examine the Bible and understand it through the prism of logic in order to come to the faith. That being said, I do not think there is a great enough effort to reach out to these folks, and I also do not think that we spend enough time enriching and strengthening our own faiths through the type of thinking that would appeal to these people. Some people in the faith actually believe that it cannot be explained or understood within the constraints of logic – at least not all the time - but that because God is God, he sometimes steps outside the laws of logic and miraculously provides truths that one can only come to believe through faith – not logic. With these people, I disagree. To me, God is Love, the Creator, the Origin of the Universe and That Which Separated (Divided) somethingness from nothingness, when all there was was nothingness. God is the Law Maker, the Promise Keeper, incapable of contradicting himself, and ultimately, the Origin and Ultimate Result of Perfect Logic.

Anyhow, I'm not going to go further down the path of explaining my understanding of God right now. I mainly intend to show you the “Math of Salvation” through Christ.

One of the big questions people seem to have about Salvation, is “How?”. How does one man save the souls of ALL people on earth? How does that make sense in terms of numbers? How is it that the penalty for ALL of our sins can be canceled out by the death and resurrection of Jesus?

Let's examine the factors involved.

First, no impurity can enter Heaven. Just one sin committed will make you impure. Having sinned only once in our lives, we are eternally separated from God, and the added – or same – punishment is eternal damnation. Also, remember that we all came into this world with original sin, and this sin also makes us impure. The Bible tells us that original sin passes down from the biological father, not the mother. Therefore, as Jesus was born of a virgin birth, he was free of original sin.

Second, before Christ arrived, the Jews (God's Chosen People) would atone for their sins through the sacrifice of blood (animals). I do not really know how that kind of atonement would work, but it seems that those judged to be righteous (and I would assume that means generally “atoned for and of a good heart, action and love for God”), would not go to Heaven, but to “Abraham's Bosom”.

Third, the original Law of the Jews and the only official System of Governance and Law for them, has been, and will always be, their Theocracy. This means Rule By God. The laws given to the Jews by God were both the laws on earth for them and the spiritual laws they were bound to. They were the same. To put it in today's terms, if our laws in America were the Laws that God gave us, it would mean that not paying your taxes, or running a red light, or smoking in a non-smoking area, would not only get you in trouble with the system of law enforcement on earth, but it would also be counted as a sin in heaven.

Fourth, in the Law of the Jews (God's Law for them), you could atone for your crimes/sins, and equally as important in my mind, you could intercede in the punishment of another's crimes/sins. An understanding of intercession is crucial. Example: Say you stole a loaf of bread and the punishment for that is that you have a hand cut off. You're judged to be guilty, and then sentenced. Then, because I have not committed the same crime/sin, I can step in and say that I want my hand cut off as a substitute for yours. In that case, you, the criminal/sinner, would obviously have to agree to the offer made by me. I can't just step in and have my hand cut off without your knowledge and acceptance, and count that as having paid your penalty. This is why you must acknowledge your sins through repentance and accept the gift of salvation.

Numbers play a part here. If you stole two loaves of bread and the punishment is then to have two hands cut off, to intercede fully, I would have to offer up both my hands to be cut off for yours. What happens then if you stole 3? I cannot step in and have 3 hands cut off. I only have 2. You only have 2 as well, so I don't know how they would handle that...but I hope you're getting the gist of this... On Earth, punishments are mathematically linked. One for One. What then can I do if the total punishment for your crime is death? I would then have to give my life to intercede for yours.

The punishments on Earth are not the same as the spiritual punishment. As you may recall, the only spiritual punishment for us is eternal damnation (there are degrees within, but it's still all eternal damnation) - and this is for having sinned only once. If you sin twice, the total punishment is the punishment for the first sin plus the punishment for the second sin. This is where more math starts to kick in. Remember, God is the God of Logic...

An eternity (as in eternal damnation) is an infinite amount of time. Mathematically then, we need to treat eternity like its numerical equivalent (or conceptual, I guess), “Infinity”. Now, what is infinity + 1? That's right, it's infinity. What's infinity times 2 (This would be the amount of time in damnation you would spend for having sinned twice)? Infinity times 2 is also infinity. What is infinity times infinity? Infinity. Infinity to the infinitieth power? Infinity. Get the idea?

So, what could I do to intercede for your sins, spiritually speaking? Well, nothing. I have sinned, and I was tainted from the start with original sin. Plus, because I have sinned once (and much more than once, obviously), I am just as guilty and damned as the rest of mankind. If, however, I had never sinned and had not original sin, I could take on the one sin you have (let's just say you only have one sin to pay for), and I would be damned eternally, and you would not. What if you had committed two sins? Could I pay the penalty for BOTH of your sins, had I never been marked by sin? Absolutely. The spiritual penalty of committing one sin is the same as having committed two, as eternal damnation + eternal damnation = eternal damnation. As a matter of fact, lets say you have committed 8,755,932,001,234 sins in your life. Could I intercede for you spiritually if I had never sinned? Yes. The math is the same. The conditions for it to work would be that I would have never sinned, and that the intercession can be done in terms of the Law. Basically, the system of law under which I would intercede would actually have to have the authority or ability to be not just an Earth-law, but it would also have to be Spiritual-law, which is what we find through the Law - the Theocracy - of the Jews.

So now, what if you had committed an infinite number of sins (not recommended), could you be saved? Yes! The math is still the same. Would I, the person who has never sinned, be able to save two people though? Even if they had both committed an infinite number of sins? Yes! The penalty is the same. As a matter of mathematical fact, if I had never been touched by sin, and the system of law I acted under had authority spiritually to let me intercede, then I could save an infinite number of people even if they had each committed an infinite number of sins. I could intercede for them all because the penalty I would pay is the same penalty I would pay for saving just one person from one of their sins. This is why Jesus is The Perfect Lamb, the Perfect Sacrifice for all our sins. The atonement by his blood and the intercession he gives us as a gift is mathematically perfect to save us from our sins. (It is perfect in many other ways besides just mathematically, as well...but I digress...)

You will never encounter a person on Earth whose love, grace, and mercy exceeds that of God's. He has done His part, it is now up to us to accept His love, grace, mercy, and salvation – and if we have already accepted this, then to thank God and revel in His grace and love, and to love Him back (as you should anyway, even if you had not been given or accepted salvation...because as you know...He kind of gave you everything you have already, and all of existence owes itself to Him).

I am definitely not perfect. I however do not think that my imperfections and unfitness allow me to stand on the sidelines and neglect the Great Commission - the duties I have as a Christian to speak the word. I am a horrible sinner, but my life and my heart are overjoyed by the Love, Grace, Mercy, and Perfection of God and His Plans, and this is why I am sharing what I know. So that you may feel what I feel, no matter what kind of vile sinner you think you may be. God Loves you and gives you salvation freely. You're covered if you accept the gift. It's been mathematically proven.

P.S. The Judeo-Christian faith is the only one that is Mathematically Perfect that I know of. It's been hidden by inattentiveness and a lack of mathematical understanding on our part for thousands of years (infinity as a mathematical concept has only been understood pretty recently). I've studied many other religions, and I cannot find another religion which even makes a real attempt to be mathematical. Most others just try to emulate the mystery and power which is contained in the Bible, but none understood that the Bible was mathematically perfect, so none (as far as I can tell) emulated that. The End.
 Quoting: MagTog


There is no bending the rules of transfinite arithmatic. Welcome to Hotel Infinity.
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

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09/21/2013 04:45 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


OP, this is how I see it too, for it makes to me much sense.
Although I am not confident relying on my own understanding.

Sorry for not being able to come up with something to add to what you've said.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46779649


Thanks, bud. I'm right there with you in not trusting my own understanding. However, when something is confirmed through logic and math, I can tell you of my certainty of understanding, at least that logical portion.

What part of Spain are you in?
I was there in '99 for a Missions trip, handing bibles to Muslims coming over from Morrocco on the ferries. Algeciras, Almeria, some other place near there with ancient Roman aqueducts and some time in Gibraltar. I loved it.
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

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United States
09/21/2013 05:00 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Before you read this, just know that neither God nor any Angels came down and made themselves manifest to tell me I was right...so I may be wrong. Debate is welcome.

Many people have a hard time believing Christianity. Many cannot attach themselves to the faith without more in-depth answers to puzzling questions the Bible leaves us with. For these types, it is not enough to follow emotionally based appeals to a state where they can proclaim that they believe, but they must analytically examine the Bible and understand it through the prism of logic in order to come to the faith. That being said, I do not think there is a great enough effort to reach out to these folks, and I also do not think that we spend enough time enriching and strengthening our own faiths through the type of thinking that would appeal to these people. Some people in the faith actually believe that it cannot be explained or understood within the constraints of logic – at least not all the time - but that because God is God, he sometimes steps outside the laws of logic and miraculously provides truths that one can only come to believe through faith – not logic. With these people, I disagree. To me, God is Love, the Creator, the Origin of the Universe and That Which Separated (Divided) somethingness from nothingness, when all there was was nothingness. God is the Law Maker, the Promise Keeper, incapable of contradicting himself, and ultimately, the Origin and Ultimate Result of Perfect Logic.

Anyhow, I'm not going to go further down the path of explaining my understanding of God right now. I mainly intend to show you the “Math of Salvation” through Christ.

One of the big questions people seem to have about Salvation, is “How?”. How does one man save the souls of ALL people on earth? How does that make sense in terms of numbers? How is it that the penalty for ALL of our sins can be canceled out by the death and resurrection of Jesus?

Let's examine the factors involved.

First, no impurity can enter Heaven. Just one sin committed will make you impure. Having sinned only once in our lives, we are eternally separated from God, and the added – or same – punishment is eternal damnation. Also, remember that we all came into this world with original sin, and this sin also makes us impure. The Bible tells us that original sin passes down from the biological father, not the mother. Therefore, as Jesus was born of a virgin birth, he was free of original sin.

Second, before Christ arrived, the Jews (God's Chosen People) would atone for their sins through the sacrifice of blood (animals). I do not really know how that kind of atonement would work, but it seems that those judged to be righteous (and I would assume that means generally “atoned for and of a good heart, action and love for God”), would not go to Heaven, but to “Abraham's Bosom”.

Third, the original Law of the Jews and the only official System of Governance and Law for them, has been, and will always be, their Theocracy. This means Rule By God. The laws given to the Jews by God were both the laws on earth for them and the spiritual laws they were bound to. They were the same. To put it in today's terms, if our laws in America were the Laws that God gave us, it would mean that not paying your taxes, or running a red light, or smoking in a non-smoking area, would not only get you in trouble with the system of law enforcement on earth, but it would also be counted as a sin in heaven.

Fourth, in the Law of the Jews (God's Law for them), you could atone for your crimes/sins, and equally as important in my mind, you could intercede in the punishment of another's crimes/sins. An understanding of intercession is crucial. Example: Say you stole a loaf of bread and the punishment for that is that you have a hand cut off. You're judged to be guilty, and then sentenced. Then, because I have not committed the same crime/sin, I can step in and say that I want my hand cut off as a substitute for yours. In that case, you, the criminal/sinner, would obviously have to agree to the offer made by me. I can't just step in and have my hand cut off without your knowledge and acceptance, and count that as having paid your penalty. This is why you must acknowledge your sins through repentance and accept the gift of salvation.

Numbers play a part here. If you stole two loaves of bread and the punishment is then to have two hands cut off, to intercede fully, I would have to offer up both my hands to be cut off for yours. What happens then if you stole 3? I cannot step in and have 3 hands cut off. I only have 2. You only have 2 as well, so I don't know how they would handle that...but I hope you're getting the gist of this... On Earth, punishments are mathematically linked. One for One. What then can I do if the total punishment for your crime is death? I would then have to give my life to intercede for yours.

The punishments on Earth are not the same as the spiritual punishment. As you may recall, the only spiritual punishment for us is eternal damnation (there are degrees within, but it's still all eternal damnation) - and this is for having sinned only once. If you sin twice, the total punishment is the punishment for the first sin plus the punishment for the second sin. This is where more math starts to kick in. Remember, God is the God of Logic...

An eternity (as in eternal damnation) is an infinite amount of time. Mathematically then, we need to treat eternity like its numerical equivalent (or conceptual, I guess), “Infinity”. Now, what is infinity + 1? That's right, it's infinity. What's infinity times 2 (This would be the amount of time in damnation you would spend for having sinned twice)? Infinity times 2 is also infinity. What is infinity times infinity? Infinity. Infinity to the infinitieth power? Infinity. Get the idea?

So, what could I do to intercede for your sins, spiritually speaking? Well, nothing. I have sinned, and I was tainted from the start with original sin. Plus, because I have sinned once (and much more than once, obviously), I am just as guilty and damned as the rest of mankind. If, however, I had never sinned and had not original sin, I could take on the one sin you have (let's just say you only have one sin to pay for), and I would be damned eternally, and you would not. What if you had committed two sins? Could I pay the penalty for BOTH of your sins, had I never been marked by sin? Absolutely. The spiritual penalty of committing one sin is the same as having committed two, as eternal damnation + eternal damnation = eternal damnation. As a matter of fact, lets say you have committed 8,755,932,001,234 sins in your life. Could I intercede for you spiritually if I had never sinned? Yes. The math is the same. The conditions for it to work would be that I would have never sinned, and that the intercession can be done in terms of the Law. Basically, the system of law under which I would intercede would actually have to have the authority or ability to be not just an Earth-law, but it would also have to be Spiritual-law, which is what we find through the Law - the Theocracy - of the Jews.

So now, what if you had committed an infinite number of sins (not recommended), could you be saved? Yes! The math is still the same. Would I, the person who has never sinned, be able to save two people though? Even if they had both committed an infinite number of sins? Yes! The penalty is the same. As a matter of mathematical fact, if I had never been touched by sin, and the system of law I acted under had authority spiritually to let me intercede, then I could save an infinite number of people even if they had each committed an infinite number of sins. I could intercede for them all because the penalty I would pay is the same penalty I would pay for saving just one person from one of their sins. This is why Jesus is The Perfect Lamb, the Perfect Sacrifice for all our sins. The atonement by his blood and the intercession he gives us as a gift is mathematically perfect to save us from our sins. (It is perfect in many other ways besides just mathematically, as well...but I digress...)

You will never encounter a person on Earth whose love, grace, and mercy exceeds that of God's. He has done His part, it is now up to us to accept His love, grace, mercy, and salvation – and if we have already accepted this, then to thank God and revel in His grace and love, and to love Him back (as you should anyway, even if you had not been given or accepted salvation...because as you know...He kind of gave you everything you have already, and all of existence owes itself to Him).

I am definitely not perfect. I however do not think that my imperfections and unfitness allow me to stand on the sidelines and neglect the Great Commission - the duties I have as a Christian to speak the word. I am a horrible sinner, but my life and my heart are overjoyed by the Love, Grace, Mercy, and Perfection of God and His Plans, and this is why I am sharing what I know. So that you may feel what I feel, no matter what kind of vile sinner you think you may be. God Loves you and gives you salvation freely. You're covered if you accept the gift. It's been mathematically proven.

P.S. The Judeo-Christian faith is the only one that is Mathematically Perfect that I know of. It's been hidden by inattentiveness and a lack of mathematical understanding on our part for thousands of years (infinity as a mathematical concept has only been understood pretty recently). I've studied many other religions, and I cannot find another religion which even makes a real attempt to be mathematical. Most others just try to emulate the mystery and power which is contained in the Bible, but none understood that the Bible was mathematically perfect, so none (as far as I can tell) emulated that. The End.
 Quoting: MagTog


There is no bending the rules of transfinite arithmatic. Welcome to Hotel Infinity.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39229363


Did I bend some rules?
Transfinite arithmetic is really only good for explaining how discreet items can be subdivided infinitely while still being separate from other items, and for explaining rates toward infinity. Am I wrong about that?

What are your insights?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 46779649
Spain
09/21/2013 05:02 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


OP, this is how I see it too, for it makes to me much sense.
Although I am not confident relying on my own understanding.

Sorry for not being able to come up with something to add to what you've said.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46779649


Thanks, bud. I'm right there with you in not trusting my own understanding. However, when something is confirmed through logic and math, I can tell you of my certainty of understanding, at least that logical portion.

What part of Spain are you in?
I was there in '99 for a Missions trip, handing bibles to Muslims coming over from Morrocco on the ferries. Algeciras, Almeria, some other place near there with ancient Roman aqueducts and some time in Gibraltar. I loved it.
 Quoting: MagTog


I am in Canarian Islands; but am a russian guy, ukrainian, to be more precise.

I like the math here... with probabilities:



Although they are 351, it seems

[link to www.accordingtothescriptures.org]
rekameohsnad

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United States
09/21/2013 05:05 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


there is a reason why Psalm 22 was Jesus' last words
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 46779649
Spain
09/21/2013 05:14 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
2 + 2 = 5
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


2 and 2 = 5

human fetal heartbeat begins 22 days after conception, which is the 5th week of pregnancy


22 days = 5 weeks
 Quoting: rekameohsnad


5 weeks, 7 days in a week. 7 * 5 = 35.
5 is the sum of 2+ 2, so take the 5 off the end, left with 3.
3, and 22 days to heartbeat = 322
322 = Skull & Bones = ILLUMINATI!!!!

ahhh
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45922344


That's some impressive math right there.
 Quoting: MagTog


Yeh, but even before his impressive intuitive math I wanted to suggest that that psalmist with heartbeat was somewhat masonic.
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

User ID: 39292843
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09/21/2013 05:18 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


there is a reason why Psalm 22 was Jesus' last words
 Quoting: rekameohsnad


Please enlighten me.
rekameohsnad

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09/21/2013 05:32 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


there is a reason why Psalm 22 was Jesus' last words
 Quoting: rekameohsnad


Please enlighten me.
 Quoting: MagTog


childbirth- 2 and 2 being 5


My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.

Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.

They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.

All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

“He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.

I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
rekameohsnad

User ID: 46971647
United States
09/21/2013 05:34 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
Yeh, but even before his impressive intuitive math I wanted to suggest that that psalmist with heartbeat was somewhat masonic.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46779649

something like that, yes..


Genesis 2:2, 33rd verse of the Bibles

On the seventh day he rested....
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

User ID: 39292843
United States
09/21/2013 05:41 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
Ok, any real responses?
 Quoting: MagTog


there is a reason why Psalm 22 was Jesus' last words
 Quoting: rekameohsnad


Please enlighten me.
 Quoting: MagTog


childbirth- 2 and 2 being 5


My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.

Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.

They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.

All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

“He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.

I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb

 Quoting: rekameohsnad


I'm still not getting it...

Could I bother you for the completed puzzle and not just its pieces?

Also, when were the chapters and verses separated from one another and given their numbers? Could it be that the "22" in "Psalm 22" was arbitrarily ascribed?
rekameohsnad

User ID: 46971647
United States
09/21/2013 05:45 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
...


there is a reason why Psalm 22 was Jesus' last words
 Quoting: rekameohsnad


Please enlighten me.
 Quoting: MagTog


childbirth- 2 and 2 being 5


My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.

Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.

They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.

All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

“He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.

I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb

 Quoting: rekameohsnad


I'm still not getting it...

Could I bother you for the completed puzzle and not just its pieces?

Also, when were the chapters and verses separated from one another and given their numbers? Could it be that the "22" in "Psalm 22" was arbitrarily ascribed?
 Quoting: MagTog


when ?? why would that matter ??

Omega = 22

there are many 'pieces' to the puzzle, chapter 4 of the Bibles is a good place to start
MagTog (OP)
The King of Greenland

User ID: 39292843
United States
09/21/2013 05:51 PM

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Re: Math of Salvation
...


Please enlighten me.
 Quoting: MagTog


childbirth- 2 and 2 being 5


My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.

Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.

They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.

All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

“He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.

I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb

 Quoting: rekameohsnad


I'm still not getting it...

Could I bother you for the completed puzzle and not just its pieces?

Also, when were the chapters and verses separated from one another and given their numbers? Could it be that the "22" in "Psalm 22" was arbitrarily ascribed?
 Quoting: MagTog


when ?? why would that matter ??

Omega = 22

there are many 'pieces' to the puzzle, chapter 4 of the Bibles is a good place to start
 Quoting: rekameohsnad


I just don't know if the numbers of verses or chapters really matters, as they are not - as far as I know - the Word of God. They are just numbers we humans placed in there so we could navigate and reference portions in the Bible. Am I wrong about that?
rekameohsnad

User ID: 46971647
United States
09/21/2013 05:59 PM
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Re: Math of Salvation
...


childbirth- 2 and 2 being 5


My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.

Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.

They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.

All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

“He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.

I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb

 Quoting: rekameohsnad


I'm still not getting it...

Could I bother you for the completed puzzle and not just its pieces?

Also, when were the chapters and verses separated from one another and given their numbers? Could it be that the "22" in "Psalm 22" was arbitrarily ascribed?
 Quoting: MagTog


when ?? why would that matter ??

Omega = 22

there are many 'pieces' to the puzzle, chapter 4 of the Bibles is a good place to start
 Quoting: rekameohsnad


I just don't know if the numbers of verses or chapters really matters, as they are not - as far as I know - the Word of God. They are just numbers we humans placed in there so we could navigate and reference portions in the Bible. Am I wrong about that?
 Quoting: MagTog


well, i consider the whole of the Bibles to be the word of God- the numbers being divinely inspired just as the text
is

true, the content matters most, but numbers can reveal common themes and ideas throughout the texts

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