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Some thoughts on Jews

 
Dreamily Resonant VIP

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10/16/2013 02:53 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
there is no THE MESSIAH THE SAVIOUR THE ONE in Daniel 9. it speaks of messiah nagid - cyrus! whom god calls him 'my shepherd"
and A messiah, who was the priest who was cut off! being cut off is always in regards of wicked people! are you saying that jesus was wicked????


also Daniel prophecies about the messiah! only he says he will come at the end of the rule of iron and clay, which are the times we are living in NOW!

jews are not confused, Christians are.
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
The missionaries) Compress two periods of time (in Daniel 9) into one period of time. This is the major problem with the King James Version / KJV (translation of Daniel 9).


The KJV takes 7 weeks and 62 weeks and compresses it into 69 weeks -- which is a total distortion.


The passage in Daniel says that an anointed prince (moshiach nagid) will come after 7 weeks (49 years). After this there are 62 weeks (434 years) and a second anointed person appears and that one is cut off.


A question


The Rabbi wrote "we like to ask Chrstian missionaries speaking of Daniel 9 is "who are the TWO messiahs being spoken of here?"


The first one after 49 years (7 weeks)

The second one after 434 years (62 weeks) who will be cut off.


The KJV makes it seem as if there is only ONE messiah and that he will be cut off after 483 years.


If it were 69 Hebrew would say "69" (sixty + nine). Daniel 9 says "7 and 62" (seven yeas and sixty-two years). They are obviously two distinct time frames, not one time frame. But the Chrstian translators are trying to make Daniel 9 seem to be about only one messiah (when it really speaks of two messiahs / anointed ones) and one time frame leading up to the death of Jsus instead of two separate time frames and two separate anointed ones. Thus they speak of 69 years and not seven years and sixty-two years.


The King James ignores the Hebrew grammar in Daniel 9 which very clearly tells us the seven years and the sixty-two years are two time frames. "Shavuim shiva" (7 weeks) has an etnach punctuation mark after it:


"7 weeks;"


An etnach is a mid-verse pause. A break in the flow of the text. An etnach is a Hebrew version of a semicolon or a break (similar to a period it puts a "stop" after a word). The King James totally ignores the etnach! The etnach makes it clear that there is a BREAK after the 7 weeks and before the 62 weeks -- it is dishonest to lump them together as "69 weeks."


The KJV puts the semicolon after the 69 weeks, not between the 7 weeks ; (etnach) and 62 weeks. This is either very sloppy translating, or far more likely -- total dishonesty to make the case for Jsus by mistranslating the text.


Look at verse 26 next. It proves the 62 weeks is a completely separate time frame from the first 7 weeks.


"And after 3 score and 2 weeks"


In line 25 the KJV translators inserted the definitive article "the" in front of "Messiah" even though it does not occur in the text. Now the KJV leaves out the definite article "the" which is IN the Hebrew):


after the sixty-two weeks this anointed one is cut off (Daniel 9:26)


Having added "the" to messiah they ignore "the" when it relates to the 62 weeks! They are trying to avoid the fact that "THE 62 weeks" are completely separate from the first 7? After all Daniel 9 does not say "after the 69 weeks," but "after THE 62 weeks"!


There are no 69 weeks, there are 7 weeks and 62 weeks. There is not one time frame, but two.


There is not one "the Messiah," but two separate anointed ones: the first is an anointed prince (moshiach nagid) who will arrive after the first 7 weeks (49 years) and the second is simply "an anointed one" who will be cut off after 62 weeks (434 years).

Then Daniel 9 says that after the second messiah is cut off the Temple will be destroyed. Yet, per Chrstians Jsus died 40 years before the Temple was destroyed (4 1/2 weeks in Daniel's dating). Why is there a "4 1/2 year gap" between Jsus' supposed death and the destruction of the Temple? Daniel 9 says the Temple will be destroyed after the second messiah is cut off.


Another problem with the Chrstian POV is that in the beginning of Daniel 9 it says (25)


Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until the anointment of the prince will be seven septets


Chrstians like to date the "emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem" to King Artaxerxes of Persia (444 BCE). The counting begins with the "emergence of the word to rebuild Jerusalem."


Chrstians add 69 weeks of years (483 years) to the year 444 BCE and you come out to the year 39 of the common era. Even if you want to stretch things it is a bit too late for Jsus.


Chrstians say Jsus may have died in the year 31, 32 or even 33 of the common era (CE), but no Chrstians claim Jsus died in the year 39 CE!


So what do Chrstians do with the extra 7 years? How do they get rid of these 7 years?


They claim that in the Bible there are two kinds of years a solar year of 365 1/4 days and a prophetic years of 360 days.


Next the missionaries say Daniel was speaking of prophetic years (not solar years).


Having decided Daniel mean "prophetic years of 360 days" the missionaries take the 360 days and multiply them by 483 years (ignoring again the 7 years and 62 years, but lumping them together as 69 years) and this gives them 173,880 days of prophetic years.


360 x 483 = 173,800 days of prophetic years.


Now, this still doesn't get them to the right date for Jsus.


What to do? What to do?


Ah! Let's divide the prophetic years by 365 1/4 days to get them back to solar years!


Why?


Why not! Maybe the math will "work"!


So missionaries take the 173,880 days they got from the already weird math and convert them back to solar years by dividing 173,880 days by 365 1/4 days.


173,800 divided by 365 1/4 = 476 years.


Ah! This is looking better for Jsus. If it wasn't they'd no doubt come back with yet another type of year: maybe the "black hole year"? Maybe the "oh heck that didn't work year"?


At any rate this machination with prophetic years multiplied and solar years divided gives them 476 years.


Magically if you add 476 years + 444 BCE = 32 CE!


Fantastic! We got within shouting distance of Jsus supposed death!


I'm sure if magically it did not add up to 32 CE they would have added yet another mathematical step to somehow get to the right year!


But all this strange math of prophetic years divided by solar years and then adding 476 years to 444 BCE to get to 32 of the common era is seen as not only logical (rather than amazing gymnastics), but pointed to with pride as proving Daniel 9 was talking about Jsus.


This is called the fudge factor. This is fudging your numbers. This is stretching things out of whack like silly putty!


There is an even bigger problem than mathematical gymnastics.


It is all a pack of lies.


There is no such thing as a solar year in Judaism or a prophetic year. There never has been.


All this mathematical gymnastics is all made up. The 360 day "prophetic year" was actually a Chrstian invention from the 19th century (not that long ago).


There is no such thing in the bible as a prophetic year. There is no such concept. It was a desperate attempt to fix the math problem of Daniel's numbers ending too late for Jesus.

Jews use a combined lunar / solar calendar. A lunar calendar loses 11 days against a solar calendar. Some Jewish holidays are specified as being in the Spring (such as Passover) so every three years we add a leap year (approximately). Chrstians ignore Jewish dating and make up fake solar years and prophetic years that never existed.


Chrstians use circular reasoning in Daniel 9. They have to fit Jsus' into Daniel 9 so they do mathematical machinations to force fit Jsus into the timing. They have to reconstruct Jsus' life to the chronology of Daniel.


Remember that Chrstians start their dating with Artaxerxes "decree to rebuild Jerusalem." In reality there were four people who issued decrees to rebuild Jerusalem. Nehemiah tells us (chapter 2) that Artaxerxes decreed to rebuild Jerusalem. There was another decree given to Ezra (Artaxerxes) and then a degree of Darius and another from Cyrus.


So why do the Chrstians pick the decree of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah? Because they think it FITS JSUS. They simply ignore the other decrees!


As we showed it doesn't really fit him (39 CE, not 31, 32 or 33 CE).


But Daniel cannot be referring to Artaxerxes. Daniel speaks of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.


Artaxerxes never gave Nehemiah a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. The city was already rebuilt and restored by the time Nehemiah asked Artaxerxes for a decree for a safe passage to Judah. The Samaritans who were living in Jerusalem tried to stop the Jews from returning. So Nehemiah got permission from Artaxerxes to send people back to Israel to simply repair some breaches in the walls of Jerusalem.


It is counter intuitive to maintain that Daniel is giving us the exact year that the messiah would be killed. There is no reason for the bible to tell us when. It would paint G-d into a box hundreds of years before the event, meaning man has no free will and history is "pre-written." In Genesis 49 Jacob wanted to reveal the end of days to his sons and we're told G-d would not allow him to reveal the end times to his children. Jacob never revealed this.


In the Book of Daniel the possibility of Daniel being told when the messianic age will begin and he is told to "seal the book until the end of time" (Daniel 12). When Daniel does talk about the messianic age it tells us not to reveal when it is going to happen!

The New Testament does not mention Daniel 9 even ONCE. If Daniel 9 were a messianic prophecy you would expect the New Testament to quote Daniel 9. This indicates that it is not a messianic prophecy. None of the early church fathers bring up Daniel 9 as a messianic proof text either (think of Justin Martyr's "Discussions with Trypho the Jew" to prove that Jsus was the messiah and out of this very long book Daniel 9 is not quoted even once).


Moshe Rosen (founder of Jews for Jsus) wrote a book giving a complete list of Jewish prophecies (61 he claimed) that Jsus was the messiah, and he does not mention Daniel 9 either.


To understand Daniel 9 we have to read it IN CONTEXT. Missionaries jump right down to Daniel 9:25 ignoring the first 24 lines! This is the third weakness of the missionaries thinking (mistranslations and circular reasoning being the other two).


Daniel 9 gives us a time line in the first verse.


9:2 In the first year of his (Darius) reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of years about which the word of HaShem had come to the prophet Jeremiah, to complete the seventy years since the ruin of Jerusalem. 2. I set my face toward the L-rd, G-d, to beseech (with) prayer and supplication, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.


Darius the Mede (Jewish year 3389) who just conquered the Babylonian. Why is Daniel bothered by something that the angel had to come and explain to him?


Daniel was trying to figure out the number of years that the devastation of Jerusalem had to have happened per the prophecy of Jeremiah. Read Jeremiah 25 and 29.


In chapter 25 Jeremiah said "and this whole land shall be in desolation" (for 70 years) "when 70 years are accomplished I shall punish the King of Babylon. . .and make it perpetual desolation."


Then in chapter 29 Jeremiah said:


For thus said HaShem: After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will remember you, and perform My good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.


Daniel is thinking "the Babylonians have been destroyed" (year 3389, 70 years after the conquest of Judah)." Daniel assumed the 70 years began with the subjugation of the Jews and that Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years is "up."

The second prophecy of Jeremiah says the Jews will go back to Judah (Israel).


The main topic of Daniel 9 is his pain at the destruction of the Temple. What Daniel is bothered by is that one part of the prophecy came true (the Babylonians have been deposed) but the second part, the rebuilding of the Temple, has not happened. It is one year from where he sat (3389). But there were no Jews in Israel one year before the 70th year -- so how could Jeremiah's prophecy that the Temple would be rebuilt by 3390 when there were no Jews in Israel (Judah)?


Daniel was confused because he thought Jeremiah had made one prophecy and that they both had the same starting date. Daniel was nervous that the Temple was not going to be rebuilt and that G-d was going to cancel the promise to rebuild the Temple.


Daniel then prays to G-d to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple, even though the people have sinned.


O L-rd, hear; O L-rd, forgive; O L-rd, hearken and do, do not delay; for Your sake, my G-d, for Your Name is called upon Your city and upon Your people." Daniel 9:19


Then the angel Gavriel comes and tells Daniel. This is when 9:25 tells us that the 70 weeks (of years) of the Babylonian exile -- Gavriel tells Daniel that the first prophecy was 70 years of subjugation of Israel, but the return to Israel begins from the destruction of the Temple (which was 18 years after the Jews were sent into exile). The year 3338 was when the destruction of the Temple happened. 3408 is when the Temple was complete and built -- 70 years as prophecied.


So it is from the destruction of Jerusalem, not from the exile -- so Daniel's concern about the Temple being rebuilt was off by 18 years.


Daniel 9:25 says "you shall know and comprehend from the word to rebuild Jerusalem" (the word is d'var, translated as "word", not "command" as many Chrstians including the KJV translate it. The word for "command" in Hebrew is mitzvah, not d'var).


There is a second reason the starting point cannot be Artaxerxes as the Chrstians like to state. Daniel is sitting in the year 3389 / 90. The angel Gavriel is going to "make Daniel wise" how could Daniel know that sometime in the future there is going to be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem -- Daniel would not be any wiser. He would know nothing more than he did before the angel told him anything.


If the starting point for the count down is some indefinite time after Daniel is sitting with the angel the message is meaningless to him. Clearly the starting point must be some time before 3389 so Daniel can count "7 weeks of years" and then he will know what the angel is saying.


And he enabled me to understand, and he spoke with me, and he said, "Daniel, now I have come forth to make you skillful in understanding. Daniel 9:22


Daniel needs to start counting the 49 years at some point. Is it the year 444 of the common era which is long past his death?? How does that make any sense at all? How does that make Daniel "skillful in understanding"?


From the Chrstian understanding if they starting counting from 444 BCE Daniel knows nothing more than he did before the angel spoke to him, putting lie to what the angel told Daniel (that he would be able to understand!).


The angel says there is a d'var (a word) concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem. That is the word of Jeremiah. Daniel is being told that 7 weeks from the destruction of Jerusalem (49 years) an anointed prince will come.


Daniel wants to know WHEN WILL THE TEMPLE BE REBUILT? If Artaxerxes were the starting point Daniel would have been long dead and would not have understood anything.

also it says that the A messiah is cut off! cut off is always used in regards of wicked people!
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Your big long copy and paste drive-by is indicative of someone who is afraid to answer someones questions. Why are you afraid to answer my questions? Do you have something to hide?
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10/16/2013 02:55 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
The missionaries) Compress two periods of time (in Daniel 9) into one period of time. This is the major problem with the King James Version / KJV (translation of Daniel 9).


The KJV takes 7 weeks and 62 weeks and compresses it into 69 weeks -- which is a total distortion.


The passage in Daniel says that an anointed prince (moshiach nagid) will come after 7 weeks (49 years). After this there are 62 weeks (434 years) and a second anointed person appears and that one is cut off.


A question


The Rabbi wrote "we like to ask Chrstian missionaries speaking of Daniel 9 is "who are the TWO messiahs being spoken of here?"


The first one after 49 years (7 weeks)

The second one after 434 years (62 weeks) who will be cut off.


The KJV makes it seem as if there is only ONE messiah and that he will be cut off after 483 years.


If it were 69 Hebrew would say "69" (sixty + nine). Daniel 9 says "7 and 62" (seven yeas and sixty-two years). They are obviously two distinct time frames, not one time frame. But the Chrstian translators are trying to make Daniel 9 seem to be about only one messiah (when it really speaks of two messiahs / anointed ones) and one time frame leading up to the death of Jsus instead of two separate time frames and two separate anointed ones. Thus they speak of 69 years and not seven years and sixty-two years.


The King James ignores the Hebrew grammar in Daniel 9 which very clearly tells us the seven years and the sixty-two years are two time frames. "Shavuim shiva" (7 weeks) has an etnach punctuation mark after it:


"7 weeks;"


An etnach is a mid-verse pause. A break in the flow of the text. An etnach is a Hebrew version of a semicolon or a break (similar to a period it puts a "stop" after a word). The King James totally ignores the etnach! The etnach makes it clear that there is a BREAK after the 7 weeks and before the 62 weeks -- it is dishonest to lump them together as "69 weeks."


The KJV puts the semicolon after the 69 weeks, not between the 7 weeks ; (etnach) and 62 weeks. This is either very sloppy translating, or far more likely -- total dishonesty to make the case for Jsus by mistranslating the text.


Look at verse 26 next. It proves the 62 weeks is a completely separate time frame from the first 7 weeks.


"And after 3 score and 2 weeks"


In line 25 the KJV translators inserted the definitive article "the" in front of "Messiah" even though it does not occur in the text. Now the KJV leaves out the definite article "the" which is IN the Hebrew):


after the sixty-two weeks this anointed one is cut off (Daniel 9:26)


Having added "the" to messiah they ignore "the" when it relates to the 62 weeks! They are trying to avoid the fact that "THE 62 weeks" are completely separate from the first 7? After all Daniel 9 does not say "after the 69 weeks," but "after THE 62 weeks"!


There are no 69 weeks, there are 7 weeks and 62 weeks. There is not one time frame, but two.


There is not one "the Messiah," but two separate anointed ones: the first is an anointed prince (moshiach nagid) who will arrive after the first 7 weeks (49 years) and the second is simply "an anointed one" who will be cut off after 62 weeks (434 years).

Then Daniel 9 says that after the second messiah is cut off the Temple will be destroyed. Yet, per Chrstians Jsus died 40 years before the Temple was destroyed (4 1/2 weeks in Daniel's dating). Why is there a "4 1/2 year gap" between Jsus' supposed death and the destruction of the Temple? Daniel 9 says the Temple will be destroyed after the second messiah is cut off.


Another problem with the Chrstian POV is that in the beginning of Daniel 9 it says (25)


Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until the anointment of the prince will be seven septets


Chrstians like to date the "emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem" to King Artaxerxes of Persia (444 BCE). The counting begins with the "emergence of the word to rebuild Jerusalem."


Chrstians add 69 weeks of years (483 years) to the year 444 BCE and you come out to the year 39 of the common era. Even if you want to stretch things it is a bit too late for Jsus.


Chrstians say Jsus may have died in the year 31, 32 or even 33 of the common era (CE), but no Chrstians claim Jsus died in the year 39 CE!


So what do Chrstians do with the extra 7 years? How do they get rid of these 7 years?


They claim that in the Bible there are two kinds of years a solar year of 365 1/4 days and a prophetic years of 360 days.


Next the missionaries say Daniel was speaking of prophetic years (not solar years).


Having decided Daniel mean "prophetic years of 360 days" the missionaries take the 360 days and multiply them by 483 years (ignoring again the 7 years and 62 years, but lumping them together as 69 years) and this gives them 173,880 days of prophetic years.


360 x 483 = 173,800 days of prophetic years.


Now, this still doesn't get them to the right date for Jsus.


What to do? What to do?


Ah! Let's divide the prophetic years by 365 1/4 days to get them back to solar years!


Why?


Why not! Maybe the math will "work"!


So missionaries take the 173,880 days they got from the already weird math and convert them back to solar years by dividing 173,880 days by 365 1/4 days.


173,800 divided by 365 1/4 = 476 years.


Ah! This is looking better for Jsus. If it wasn't they'd no doubt come back with yet another type of year: maybe the "black hole year"? Maybe the "oh heck that didn't work year"?


At any rate this machination with prophetic years multiplied and solar years divided gives them 476 years.


Magically if you add 476 years + 444 BCE = 32 CE!


Fantastic! We got within shouting distance of Jsus supposed death!


I'm sure if magically it did not add up to 32 CE they would have added yet another mathematical step to somehow get to the right year!


But all this strange math of prophetic years divided by solar years and then adding 476 years to 444 BCE to get to 32 of the common era is seen as not only logical (rather than amazing gymnastics), but pointed to with pride as proving Daniel 9 was talking about Jsus.


This is called the fudge factor. This is fudging your numbers. This is stretching things out of whack like silly putty!


There is an even bigger problem than mathematical gymnastics.


It is all a pack of lies.


There is no such thing as a solar year in Judaism or a prophetic year. There never has been.


All this mathematical gymnastics is all made up. The 360 day "prophetic year" was actually a Chrstian invention from the 19th century (not that long ago).


There is no such thing in the bible as a prophetic year. There is no such concept. It was a desperate attempt to fix the math problem of Daniel's numbers ending too late for Jesus.

Jews use a combined lunar / solar calendar. A lunar calendar loses 11 days against a solar calendar. Some Jewish holidays are specified as being in the Spring (such as Passover) so every three years we add a leap year (approximately). Chrstians ignore Jewish dating and make up fake solar years and prophetic years that never existed.


Chrstians use circular reasoning in Daniel 9. They have to fit Jsus' into Daniel 9 so they do mathematical machinations to force fit Jsus into the timing. They have to reconstruct Jsus' life to the chronology of Daniel.


Remember that Chrstians start their dating with Artaxerxes "decree to rebuild Jerusalem." In reality there were four people who issued decrees to rebuild Jerusalem. Nehemiah tells us (chapter 2) that Artaxerxes decreed to rebuild Jerusalem. There was another decree given to Ezra (Artaxerxes) and then a degree of Darius and another from Cyrus.


So why do the Chrstians pick the decree of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah? Because they think it FITS JSUS. They simply ignore the other decrees!


As we showed it doesn't really fit him (39 CE, not 31, 32 or 33 CE).


But Daniel cannot be referring to Artaxerxes. Daniel speaks of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.


Artaxerxes never gave Nehemiah a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. The city was already rebuilt and restored by the time Nehemiah asked Artaxerxes for a decree for a safe passage to Judah. The Samaritans who were living in Jerusalem tried to stop the Jews from returning. So Nehemiah got permission from Artaxerxes to send people back to Israel to simply repair some breaches in the walls of Jerusalem.


It is counter intuitive to maintain that Daniel is giving us the exact year that the messiah would be killed. There is no reason for the bible to tell us when. It would paint G-d into a box hundreds of years before the event, meaning man has no free will and history is "pre-written." In Genesis 49 Jacob wanted to reveal the end of days to his sons and we're told G-d would not allow him to reveal the end times to his children. Jacob never revealed this.


In the Book of Daniel the possibility of Daniel being told when the messianic age will begin and he is told to "seal the book until the end of time" (Daniel 12). When Daniel does talk about the messianic age it tells us not to reveal when it is going to happen!

The New Testament does not mention Daniel 9 even ONCE. If Daniel 9 were a messianic prophecy you would expect the New Testament to quote Daniel 9. This indicates that it is not a messianic prophecy. None of the early church fathers bring up Daniel 9 as a messianic proof text either (think of Justin Martyr's "Discussions with Trypho the Jew" to prove that Jsus was the messiah and out of this very long book Daniel 9 is not quoted even once).


Moshe Rosen (founder of Jews for Jsus) wrote a book giving a complete list of Jewish prophecies (61 he claimed) that Jsus was the messiah, and he does not mention Daniel 9 either.


To understand Daniel 9 we have to read it IN CONTEXT. Missionaries jump right down to Daniel 9:25 ignoring the first 24 lines! This is the third weakness of the missionaries thinking (mistranslations and circular reasoning being the other two).


Daniel 9 gives us a time line in the first verse.


9:2 In the first year of his (Darius) reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of years about which the word of HaShem had come to the prophet Jeremiah, to complete the seventy years since the ruin of Jerusalem. 2. I set my face toward the L-rd, G-d, to beseech (with) prayer and supplication, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.


Darius the Mede (Jewish year 3389) who just conquered the Babylonian. Why is Daniel bothered by something that the angel had to come and explain to him?


Daniel was trying to figure out the number of years that the devastation of Jerusalem had to have happened per the prophecy of Jeremiah. Read Jeremiah 25 and 29.


In chapter 25 Jeremiah said "and this whole land shall be in desolation" (for 70 years) "when 70 years are accomplished I shall punish the King of Babylon. . .and make it perpetual desolation."


Then in chapter 29 Jeremiah said:


For thus said HaShem: After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will remember you, and perform My good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.


Daniel is thinking "the Babylonians have been destroyed" (year 3389, 70 years after the conquest of Judah)." Daniel assumed the 70 years began with the subjugation of the Jews and that Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years is "up."

The second prophecy of Jeremiah says the Jews will go back to Judah (Israel).


The main topic of Daniel 9 is his pain at the destruction of the Temple. What Daniel is bothered by is that one part of the prophecy came true (the Babylonians have been deposed) but the second part, the rebuilding of the Temple, has not happened. It is one year from where he sat (3389). But there were no Jews in Israel one year before the 70th year -- so how could Jeremiah's prophecy that the Temple would be rebuilt by 3390 when there were no Jews in Israel (Judah)?


Daniel was confused because he thought Jeremiah had made one prophecy and that they both had the same starting date. Daniel was nervous that the Temple was not going to be rebuilt and that G-d was going to cancel the promise to rebuild the Temple.


Daniel then prays to G-d to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple, even though the people have sinned.


O L-rd, hear; O L-rd, forgive; O L-rd, hearken and do, do not delay; for Your sake, my G-d, for Your Name is called upon Your city and upon Your people." Daniel 9:19


Then the angel Gavriel comes and tells Daniel. This is when 9:25 tells us that the 70 weeks (of years) of the Babylonian exile -- Gavriel tells Daniel that the first prophecy was 70 years of subjugation of Israel, but the return to Israel begins from the destruction of the Temple (which was 18 years after the Jews were sent into exile). The year 3338 was when the destruction of the Temple happened. 3408 is when the Temple was complete and built -- 70 years as prophecied.


So it is from the destruction of Jerusalem, not from the exile -- so Daniel's concern about the Temple being rebuilt was off by 18 years.


Daniel 9:25 says "you shall know and comprehend from the word to rebuild Jerusalem" (the word is d'var, translated as "word", not "command" as many Chrstians including the KJV translate it. The word for "command" in Hebrew is mitzvah, not d'var).


There is a second reason the starting point cannot be Artaxerxes as the Chrstians like to state. Daniel is sitting in the year 3389 / 90. The angel Gavriel is going to "make Daniel wise" how could Daniel know that sometime in the future there is going to be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem -- Daniel would not be any wiser. He would know nothing more than he did before the angel told him anything.


If the starting point for the count down is some indefinite time after Daniel is sitting with the angel the message is meaningless to him. Clearly the starting point must be some time before 3389 so Daniel can count "7 weeks of years" and then he will know what the angel is saying.


And he enabled me to understand, and he spoke with me, and he said, "Daniel, now I have come forth to make you skillful in understanding. Daniel 9:22


Daniel needs to start counting the 49 years at some point. Is it the year 444 of the common era which is long past his death?? How does that make any sense at all? How does that make Daniel "skillful in understanding"?


From the Chrstian understanding if they starting counting from 444 BCE Daniel knows nothing more than he did before the angel spoke to him, putting lie to what the angel told Daniel (that he would be able to understand!).


The angel says there is a d'var (a word) concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem. That is the word of Jeremiah. Daniel is being told that 7 weeks from the destruction of Jerusalem (49 years) an anointed prince will come.


Daniel wants to know WHEN WILL THE TEMPLE BE REBUILT? If Artaxerxes were the starting point Daniel would have been long dead and would not have understood anything.

also it says that the A messiah is cut off! cut off is always used in regards of wicked people!
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Are you serious? Do you usually answer questions with other questions? Answer my questions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


I answered your question on this page.

answer me this, why does jeremiah say that 'jesus who is the perfect sin offering' to offer a bull as a sin offering in third temple?
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Ok I'll pre-empt so that maybe people can learn from my mistak.
Does the 2 black bar have anything to do with the law?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48436391


I was given a more abstract interpretation. the jews are in the middle bound by the laws - upper of the universal soul, lower of the severity of nature.
 Quoting: Montclair de Rallo-Tubbs 48437688


That is incredible man, thank you for sharing. I have not come across this infor but I also know that zion is long song, not I47
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
there is no THE MESSIAH THE SAVIOUR THE ONE in Daniel 9. it speaks of messiah nagid - cyrus! whom god calls him 'my shepherd"
and A messiah, who was the priest who was cut off! being cut off is always in regards of wicked people! are you saying that jesus was wicked????


also Daniel prophecies about the messiah! only he says he will come at the end of the rule of iron and clay, which are the times we are living in NOW!

jews are not confused, Christians are.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


here is your answer.

now answer my question.
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
there is no THE MESSIAH THE SAVIOUR THE ONE in Daniel 9. it speaks of messiah nagid - cyrus! whom god calls him 'my shepherd"
and A messiah, who was the priest who was cut off! being cut off is always in regards of wicked people! are you saying that jesus was wicked????


also Daniel prophecies about the messiah! only he says he will come at the end of the rule of iron and clay, which are the times we are living in NOW!

jews are not confused, Christians are.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Eh no, it clearly says this,


24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Anoint the most holy you stupid idiot!!! Who will bring in everlasting righteousness and make reconciliation for sin, exactly what Yeshua the Messiah did you imbecile. Is that clear enough for you? So, who was this wicked messiah in your opinion?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
The missionaries) Compress two periods of time (in Daniel 9) into one period of time. This is the major problem with the King James Version / KJV (translation of Daniel 9).


The KJV takes 7 weeks and 62 weeks and compresses it into 69 weeks -- which is a total distortion.


The passage in Daniel says that an anointed prince (moshiach nagid) will come after 7 weeks (49 years). After this there are 62 weeks (434 years) and a second anointed person appears and that one is cut off.


A question


The Rabbi wrote "we like to ask Chrstian missionaries speaking of Daniel 9 is "who are the TWO messiahs being spoken of here?"


The first one after 49 years (7 weeks)

The second one after 434 years (62 weeks) who will be cut off.


The KJV makes it seem as if there is only ONE messiah and that he will be cut off after 483 years.


If it were 69 Hebrew would say "69" (sixty + nine). Daniel 9 says "7 and 62" (seven yeas and sixty-two years). They are obviously two distinct time frames, not one time frame. But the Chrstian translators are trying to make Daniel 9 seem to be about only one messiah (when it really speaks of two messiahs / anointed ones) and one time frame leading up to the death of Jsus instead of two separate time frames and two separate anointed ones. Thus they speak of 69 years and not seven years and sixty-two years.


The King James ignores the Hebrew grammar in Daniel 9 which very clearly tells us the seven years and the sixty-two years are two time frames. "Shavuim shiva" (7 weeks) has an etnach punctuation mark after it:


"7 weeks;"


An etnach is a mid-verse pause. A break in the flow of the text. An etnach is a Hebrew version of a semicolon or a break (similar to a period it puts a "stop" after a word). The King James totally ignores the etnach! The etnach makes it clear that there is a BREAK after the 7 weeks and before the 62 weeks -- it is dishonest to lump them together as "69 weeks."


The KJV puts the semicolon after the 69 weeks, not between the 7 weeks ; (etnach) and 62 weeks. This is either very sloppy translating, or far more likely -- total dishonesty to make the case for Jsus by mistranslating the text.


Look at verse 26 next. It proves the 62 weeks is a completely separate time frame from the first 7 weeks.


"And after 3 score and 2 weeks"


In line 25 the KJV translators inserted the definitive article "the" in front of "Messiah" even though it does not occur in the text. Now the KJV leaves out the definite article "the" which is IN the Hebrew):


after the sixty-two weeks this anointed one is cut off (Daniel 9:26)


Having added "the" to messiah they ignore "the" when it relates to the 62 weeks! They are trying to avoid the fact that "THE 62 weeks" are completely separate from the first 7? After all Daniel 9 does not say "after the 69 weeks," but "after THE 62 weeks"!


There are no 69 weeks, there are 7 weeks and 62 weeks. There is not one time frame, but two.


There is not one "the Messiah," but two separate anointed ones: the first is an anointed prince (moshiach nagid) who will arrive after the first 7 weeks (49 years) and the second is simply "an anointed one" who will be cut off after 62 weeks (434 years).

Then Daniel 9 says that after the second messiah is cut off the Temple will be destroyed. Yet, per Chrstians Jsus died 40 years before the Temple was destroyed (4 1/2 weeks in Daniel's dating). Why is there a "4 1/2 year gap" between Jsus' supposed death and the destruction of the Temple? Daniel 9 says the Temple will be destroyed after the second messiah is cut off.


Another problem with the Chrstian POV is that in the beginning of Daniel 9 it says (25)


Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until the anointment of the prince will be seven septets


Chrstians like to date the "emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem" to King Artaxerxes of Persia (444 BCE). The counting begins with the "emergence of the word to rebuild Jerusalem."


Chrstians add 69 weeks of years (483 years) to the year 444 BCE and you come out to the year 39 of the common era. Even if you want to stretch things it is a bit too late for Jsus.


Chrstians say Jsus may have died in the year 31, 32 or even 33 of the common era (CE), but no Chrstians claim Jsus died in the year 39 CE!


So what do Chrstians do with the extra 7 years? How do they get rid of these 7 years?


They claim that in the Bible there are two kinds of years a solar year of 365 1/4 days and a prophetic years of 360 days.


Next the missionaries say Daniel was speaking of prophetic years (not solar years).


Having decided Daniel mean "prophetic years of 360 days" the missionaries take the 360 days and multiply them by 483 years (ignoring again the 7 years and 62 years, but lumping them together as 69 years) and this gives them 173,880 days of prophetic years.


360 x 483 = 173,800 days of prophetic years.


Now, this still doesn't get them to the right date for Jsus.


What to do? What to do?


Ah! Let's divide the prophetic years by 365 1/4 days to get them back to solar years!


Why?


Why not! Maybe the math will "work"!


So missionaries take the 173,880 days they got from the already weird math and convert them back to solar years by dividing 173,880 days by 365 1/4 days.


173,800 divided by 365 1/4 = 476 years.


Ah! This is looking better for Jsus. If it wasn't they'd no doubt come back with yet another type of year: maybe the "black hole year"? Maybe the "oh heck that didn't work year"?


At any rate this machination with prophetic years multiplied and solar years divided gives them 476 years.


Magically if you add 476 years + 444 BCE = 32 CE!


Fantastic! We got within shouting distance of Jsus supposed death!


I'm sure if magically it did not add up to 32 CE they would have added yet another mathematical step to somehow get to the right year!


But all this strange math of prophetic years divided by solar years and then adding 476 years to 444 BCE to get to 32 of the common era is seen as not only logical (rather than amazing gymnastics), but pointed to with pride as proving Daniel 9 was talking about Jsus.


This is called the fudge factor. This is fudging your numbers. This is stretching things out of whack like silly putty!


There is an even bigger problem than mathematical gymnastics.


It is all a pack of lies.


There is no such thing as a solar year in Judaism or a prophetic year. There never has been.


All this mathematical gymnastics is all made up. The 360 day "prophetic year" was actually a Chrstian invention from the 19th century (not that long ago).


There is no such thing in the bible as a prophetic year. There is no such concept. It was a desperate attempt to fix the math problem of Daniel's numbers ending too late for Jesus.

Jews use a combined lunar / solar calendar. A lunar calendar loses 11 days against a solar calendar. Some Jewish holidays are specified as being in the Spring (such as Passover) so every three years we add a leap year (approximately). Chrstians ignore Jewish dating and make up fake solar years and prophetic years that never existed.


Chrstians use circular reasoning in Daniel 9. They have to fit Jsus' into Daniel 9 so they do mathematical machinations to force fit Jsus into the timing. They have to reconstruct Jsus' life to the chronology of Daniel.


Remember that Chrstians start their dating with Artaxerxes "decree to rebuild Jerusalem." In reality there were four people who issued decrees to rebuild Jerusalem. Nehemiah tells us (chapter 2) that Artaxerxes decreed to rebuild Jerusalem. There was another decree given to Ezra (Artaxerxes) and then a degree of Darius and another from Cyrus.


So why do the Chrstians pick the decree of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah? Because they think it FITS JSUS. They simply ignore the other decrees!


As we showed it doesn't really fit him (39 CE, not 31, 32 or 33 CE).


But Daniel cannot be referring to Artaxerxes. Daniel speaks of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.


Artaxerxes never gave Nehemiah a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. The city was already rebuilt and restored by the time Nehemiah asked Artaxerxes for a decree for a safe passage to Judah. The Samaritans who were living in Jerusalem tried to stop the Jews from returning. So Nehemiah got permission from Artaxerxes to send people back to Israel to simply repair some breaches in the walls of Jerusalem.


It is counter intuitive to maintain that Daniel is giving us the exact year that the messiah would be killed. There is no reason for the bible to tell us when. It would paint G-d into a box hundreds of years before the event, meaning man has no free will and history is "pre-written." In Genesis 49 Jacob wanted to reveal the end of days to his sons and we're told G-d would not allow him to reveal the end times to his children. Jacob never revealed this.


In the Book of Daniel the possibility of Daniel being told when the messianic age will begin and he is told to "seal the book until the end of time" (Daniel 12). When Daniel does talk about the messianic age it tells us not to reveal when it is going to happen!

The New Testament does not mention Daniel 9 even ONCE. If Daniel 9 were a messianic prophecy you would expect the New Testament to quote Daniel 9. This indicates that it is not a messianic prophecy. None of the early church fathers bring up Daniel 9 as a messianic proof text either (think of Justin Martyr's "Discussions with Trypho the Jew" to prove that Jsus was the messiah and out of this very long book Daniel 9 is not quoted even once).


Moshe Rosen (founder of Jews for Jsus) wrote a book giving a complete list of Jewish prophecies (61 he claimed) that Jsus was the messiah, and he does not mention Daniel 9 either.


To understand Daniel 9 we have to read it IN CONTEXT. Missionaries jump right down to Daniel 9:25 ignoring the first 24 lines! This is the third weakness of the missionaries thinking (mistranslations and circular reasoning being the other two).


Daniel 9 gives us a time line in the first verse.


9:2 In the first year of his (Darius) reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of years about which the word of HaShem had come to the prophet Jeremiah, to complete the seventy years since the ruin of Jerusalem. 2. I set my face toward the L-rd, G-d, to beseech (with) prayer and supplication, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.


Darius the Mede (Jewish year 3389) who just conquered the Babylonian. Why is Daniel bothered by something that the angel had to come and explain to him?


Daniel was trying to figure out the number of years that the devastation of Jerusalem had to have happened per the prophecy of Jeremiah. Read Jeremiah 25 and 29.


In chapter 25 Jeremiah said "and this whole land shall be in desolation" (for 70 years) "when 70 years are accomplished I shall punish the King of Babylon. . .and make it perpetual desolation."


Then in chapter 29 Jeremiah said:


For thus said HaShem: After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will remember you, and perform My good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.


Daniel is thinking "the Babylonians have been destroyed" (year 3389, 70 years after the conquest of Judah)." Daniel assumed the 70 years began with the subjugation of the Jews and that Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years is "up."

The second prophecy of Jeremiah says the Jews will go back to Judah (Israel).


The main topic of Daniel 9 is his pain at the destruction of the Temple. What Daniel is bothered by is that one part of the prophecy came true (the Babylonians have been deposed) but the second part, the rebuilding of the Temple, has not happened. It is one year from where he sat (3389). But there were no Jews in Israel one year before the 70th year -- so how could Jeremiah's prophecy that the Temple would be rebuilt by 3390 when there were no Jews in Israel (Judah)?


Daniel was confused because he thought Jeremiah had made one prophecy and that they both had the same starting date. Daniel was nervous that the Temple was not going to be rebuilt and that G-d was going to cancel the promise to rebuild the Temple.


Daniel then prays to G-d to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple, even though the people have sinned.


O L-rd, hear; O L-rd, forgive; O L-rd, hearken and do, do not delay; for Your sake, my G-d, for Your Name is called upon Your city and upon Your people." Daniel 9:19


Then the angel Gavriel comes and tells Daniel. This is when 9:25 tells us that the 70 weeks (of years) of the Babylonian exile -- Gavriel tells Daniel that the first prophecy was 70 years of subjugation of Israel, but the return to Israel begins from the destruction of the Temple (which was 18 years after the Jews were sent into exile). The year 3338 was when the destruction of the Temple happened. 3408 is when the Temple was complete and built -- 70 years as prophecied.


So it is from the destruction of Jerusalem, not from the exile -- so Daniel's concern about the Temple being rebuilt was off by 18 years.


Daniel 9:25 says "you shall know and comprehend from the word to rebuild Jerusalem" (the word is d'var, translated as "word", not "command" as many Chrstians including the KJV translate it. The word for "command" in Hebrew is mitzvah, not d'var).


There is a second reason the starting point cannot be Artaxerxes as the Chrstians like to state. Daniel is sitting in the year 3389 / 90. The angel Gavriel is going to "make Daniel wise" how could Daniel know that sometime in the future there is going to be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem -- Daniel would not be any wiser. He would know nothing more than he did before the angel told him anything.


If the starting point for the count down is some indefinite time after Daniel is sitting with the angel the message is meaningless to him. Clearly the starting point must be some time before 3389 so Daniel can count "7 weeks of years" and then he will know what the angel is saying.


And he enabled me to understand, and he spoke with me, and he said, "Daniel, now I have come forth to make you skillful in understanding. Daniel 9:22


Daniel needs to start counting the 49 years at some point. Is it the year 444 of the common era which is long past his death?? How does that make any sense at all? How does that make Daniel "skillful in understanding"?


From the Chrstian understanding if they starting counting from 444 BCE Daniel knows nothing more than he did before the angel spoke to him, putting lie to what the angel told Daniel (that he would be able to understand!).


The angel says there is a d'var (a word) concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem. That is the word of Jeremiah. Daniel is being told that 7 weeks from the destruction of Jerusalem (49 years) an anointed prince will come.


Daniel wants to know WHEN WILL THE TEMPLE BE REBUILT? If Artaxerxes were the starting point Daniel would have been long dead and would not have understood anything.

also it says that the A messiah is cut off! cut off is always used in regards of wicked people!
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Are you serious? Do you usually answer questions with other questions? Answer my questions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


I answered your question on this page.

answer me this, why does jeremiah say that 'jesus who is the perfect sin offering' to offer a bull as a sin offering in third temple?
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


No you haven't answered my questions you lying snake. Stop trying to change the subject!!! It is very telling. Answer the questions coward!
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Thirdly, you say the Messiah who is cut off refers to King Cyrus and that he was evil. How can that be when King Cyrus was God's anointed whom blessed Judah? That is not biblical so you are wrong on that point.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Verse 25 clearly refers to King Cyrus, God's anointed.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Verse 26 refers to the Messianic Prophecy/Yeshua and I noticed how you conveniently left out the last part, he was cut off but not for himself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


bump
Dreamily Resonant VIP

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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
there is no THE MESSIAH THE SAVIOUR THE ONE in Daniel 9. it speaks of messiah nagid - cyrus! whom god calls him 'my shepherd"
and A messiah, who was the priest who was cut off! being cut off is always in regards of wicked people! are you saying that jesus was wicked????


also Daniel prophecies about the messiah! only he says he will come at the end of the rule of iron and clay, which are the times we are living in NOW!

jews are not confused, Christians are.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Eh no, it clearly says this,


24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Anoint the most holy you stupid idiot!!! Who will bring in everlasting righteousness and make reconciliation for sin, exactly what Yeshua the Messiah did you imbecile. Is that clear enough for you? So, who was this wicked messiah in your opinion?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


cant you fucking read?? keep reading what the angel says. what the angel says to Daniel obviously doesn't match what you think was to happen during the 70 weeks.

again the one that was cut off was the high priest of the temple.
also in Hebrew it does not say to annoit the most high, this is just another kjv tampering, in Hebrew it says kodesh kodashim which always means the ark and its resting place, there fore we know that the ark is also A MESSIAH.
and in Hebrew it does not say 'not for himself' but that he will have nothing afterwards.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
...


What text? Why are you afraid of linking it? And lol, you are the son of two Persians. Your people were King Davids enemies. But your delusions of grandeur of very amusing you simpleton.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48408291


ill go over it one last time.
7 weeks until messiah prince - cyrus!
then after cyrus issues the order to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple, calculate 62 weeks, that is when the temple was destroyed and A messiah was CUT OFF! the A messiah was the high priest! a messiah is not THE messiah! get it into your little stupid brain of yours! also it says CUT OFF! cut off is always used in regard of wicked people! always!!
and it says 70 weeks decreed to do this and that etc... but keep reading and you would see NONE OF IT HAD HAPPENED! because in the Hebrew it is clear that all these things to do, are to be done AFTER the 70 weeks ended.

jews migrated all over the world, doesn't matter where my jewish family were before they came to Israel, my fathers line still connects to king david.
and my mothers side is of a jews who belonged to the order of the hashashins.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP



"the commencement of the weeks (as he remarks) must be either from the seventh of Artaxerxes, which falls on 457 B.C. or from the twentieth of Artaxerxes; (add to 457 B.C., twenty six years after Christ, which is the number that four hundred and eighty three years, or sixty nine weeks, exceeds four hundred and fifty seven years); and you are brought to the beginning of John the Baptist's preaching up the advent of the Messiah; add seven years or one week to the former, and you come to the thirty third year of A.D. which was the year of Jesus Christ's death or else compute four hundred and ninety years, the whole seventy weeks, from the seventh of Artaxerxes, by subtracting four hundred and fifty seven years (the space of time between that year and the beginning of A.D.) from four hundred and ninety, and there remains thirty three, the year of our Lord's death. Let the twentieth of Artaxerxes be the date of the seventy weeks, which is 455 B.C. and reckon sixty nine weeks of Chaldean years; seventy Chaldee years being equal to sixty nine Julian; and so four hundred and seventy eight Julian years making four hundred and eighty three Chaldee years, and they end in the thirty third year after Christ, or the passover following (d)'';

the several particulars into which these seventy weeks are divided:

unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks; by whom is meant, not Cyrus, as Jarchi and Jacchiades; who, though called Messiah or anointed, Isaiah 44:28, cannot be intended; for this prince was to be cut off after seven, and sixty two weeks, or four hundred and eighty three years; whereas Cyrus died ages before this, and even died before the expiration of the seven weeks, or forty nine years; nor Joshua the high priest, or Zerubbabel, as Ben Gersom and others nor Nehemiah as Aben Ezra; nor Artaxerxes, which R. Azariah (e) thinks probable; for to none of these will this character agree, which denotes some eminent person known by this name; nor the work ascribed to him, Daniel 9:24, nor can it be said of either of them that they were cut off, and much less at such a period as is here fixed: it is right to interpret it of the promised and expected Saviour, whom the Psalmist David had frequently spoken of under the name of the Messiah, and as a King and Prince; see Psalm 2:2 and who is David, the Prince Ezekiel before this had prophesied of, Ezekiel 34:24, and is the same with the Prince of peace in the famous prophecy of him in Isaiah 9:6. The Syriac version, though not a literal one, gives the true sense of the passage, rendering it,

"unto the coming of the King Messiah;''

unto which there were to be seven, and sixty two weeks, or sixty nine weeks, which make four hundred and eighty three years; and these being understood of eastern years, used by the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Persians, consisting of three hundred and sixty days, reckoning thirty days to a month, and twelve months to a year, there were just four hundred and eighty three of these from the twentieth year of Artaxerxes to the thirty third of the vulgar era of Christ, and the nineteenth of Tiberius Caesar, in which he suffered. Sir Isaac Newton (f) thinks the seven weeks unto Messiah, which he detaches from the sixty two, respects the second coming of Christ, when he shall come as a Prince, and destroy antichrist, and that it takes in the compass of a jubilee; but when it will begin and end he does not pretend to say; but the true reason of the sixty nine weeks being divided into seven, and sixty two, is on account of the particular and distinct events assigned to each period, as follows:

the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times; that is, within the space of seven weeks, or forty nine years, reckoning from the twentieth of Artaxerxes; when the Jews had a grant to rebuild their city and wall, and were furnished with materials for it; and which was done in very troublesome times; Nehemiah, and the Jews with him, met with much trouble from Sanballat, Tobiah, and Geshem the Arabian, while they were setting up the wall of the city, and filling the streets with ranges of houses, Nehemiah chapters four and five for which the space of seven weeks, or forty nine years, were cut out and appointed; and that this event belongs solely to this period is clear from the Messiah's coming being appropriated to the period of the sixty two weeks; which leaves this entirely where it is fixed.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


I would have replied sooner but some stupid fucking auto-ban keeps banning me. I had to post that up above to see if the word was contained in it but it's obviously not. My first point, ok fair enough, I accept that it refers to King Cyrus as Messiah Prince. Not Messiah but Messiah Prince, it makes the distinction. Secondly you say the prophecy refers to King Cyrus but that cannot be for he does not match the time-line, you are off by many centuries. It refers to Roman times, the exact time when Yeshua the Messiah lived on Earth. See up above for a description of those facts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


Can you refute this?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Also, who is this mysterious priest you keep mentioning? And where is your Messiah since you reject Yeshua who matched Daniels prophecy of the seventy weeks? Do you claim it to be a false prophecy?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


bump for the false Jew.
stillhere

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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
bump
"You can bend it and twist it... You can misuse and abuse it... But even God cannot change the Truth.”
Michael Levy
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
ill go over it one last time.


VIP:MV8yMzg1MzY3XzQwODI0Nzc1X0Q4REJFMTA0]

7 weeks until messiah prince - cyrus!
then after cyrus issues the order to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple, calculate 62 weeks, that is when the temple was destroyed and A messiah was CUT OFF! the A messiah was the high priest! a messiah is not THE messiah! get it into your little stupid brain of yours! also it says CUT OFF! cut off is always used in regard of wicked people! always!!
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


... except one time it is used in relation to a covenant. At the last supper Jesus made a covenant that made a drink of wine and a piece of unleavened bread as the sin replacement that sacrifice in the Temple use to provide for the 12 tribes. Jesus was prevented from doing that when God (keeper of covenants in Da:9:4) called John to be the High Priest)
[link to www.blueletterbible.org]

"to cut or make a covenant"

VIP:MV8yMzg1MzY3XzQwODI0Nzc1X0Q4REJFMTA0]
and it says 70 weeks decreed to do this and that etc... but keep reading and you would see NONE OF IT HAD HAPPENED! because in the Hebrew it is clear that all these things to do, are to be done AFTER the 70 weeks ended.
Da:9 only says the mid-week would happen and the it mentions a number of abominations will occur. Blood sacrifice went on, money-changers were back and Stephen was killed. All of that is the abominations part, it has nothing to do with the 70AD prophecy as the cross and the few years after were associated with the bruise to the heel, anything covered in Scripture 3 1/2 years or longre after the cross is going to be about the bruise to Satan's head. The bruise to the heel was completed in full.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Not seeing any reference to black border Israel flag, sorry.
Nile to Euphrates it is
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
there is no THE MESSIAH THE SAVIOUR THE ONE in Daniel 9. it speaks of messiah nagid - cyrus! whom god calls him 'my shepherd"
and A messiah, who was the priest who was cut off! being cut off is always in regards of wicked people! are you saying that jesus was wicked????


also Daniel prophecies about the messiah! only he says he will come at the end of the rule of iron and clay, which are the times we are living in NOW!

jews are not confused, Christians are.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Eh no, it clearly says this,


24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Anoint the most holy you stupid idiot!!! Who will bring in everlasting righteousness and make reconciliation for sin, exactly what Yeshua the Messiah did you imbecile. Is that clear enough for you? So, who was this wicked messiah in your opinion?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


cant you fucking read?? keep reading what the angel says. what the angel says to Daniel obviously doesn't match what you think was to happen during the 70 weeks.

again the one that was cut off was the high priest of the temple.
also in Hebrew it does not say to annoit the most high, this is just another kjv tampering, in Hebrew it says kodesh kodashim which always means the ark and its resting place, there fore we know that the ark is also A MESSIAH.
and in Hebrew it does not say 'not for himself' but that he will have nothing afterwards.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Yeah I can you fucking clown. So are you now claiming that it was a false prophecy? Is that what you are claiming? The only one who matched this was Yeshua the Messiah. Who is this high priest you keep mentioning? What is his name? Surely it would be mentioned in the bible!? And how in God's name does he match that Messianic Prophecy? And the rest of your post is bullshit conjecture, unsubstituted shite.
Mind Control

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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Lmao if you don't touch the Jews, they won't touch you. Simple as that. Jews have been persecuted by filth Christians for years. Just let them go.

Last Edited by Mind Control on 10/16/2013 03:12 PM
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Anonymous Coward
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Ireland
10/16/2013 03:13 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Lmao if you don't touch the Jews, they won't touch you. Simple as that. Jews have been persecuted by filth Christians for years. Just let them go.
 Quoting: Mind Control


sbustard
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 48436391
Canada
10/16/2013 03:13 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
there is no THE MESSIAH THE SAVIOUR THE ONE in Daniel 9. it speaks of messiah nagid - cyrus! whom god calls him 'my shepherd"
and A messiah, who was the priest who was cut off! being cut off is always in regards of wicked people! are you saying that jesus was wicked????


also Daniel prophecies about the messiah! only he says he will come at the end of the rule of iron and clay, which are the times we are living in NOW!

jews are not confused, Christians are.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Eh no, it clearly says this,


24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Anoint the most holy you stupid idiot!!! Who will bring in everlasting righteousness and make reconciliation for sin, exactly what Yeshua the Messiah did you imbecile. Is that clear enough for you? So, who was this wicked messiah in your opinion?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


cant you fucking read?? keep reading what the angel says. what the angel says to Daniel obviously doesn't match what you think was to happen during the 70 weeks.

again the one that was cut off was the high priest of the temple.
also in Hebrew it does not say to annoit the most high, this is just another kjv tampering, in Hebrew it says kodesh kodashim which always means the ark and its resting place, there fore we know that the ark is also A MESSIAH.
and in Hebrew it does not say 'not for himself' but that he will have nothing afterwards.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Yeah I can you fucking clown. So are you now claiming that it was a false prophecy? Is that what you are claiming? The only one who matched this was Yeshua the Messiah. Who is this high priest you keep mentioning? What is his name? Surely it would be mentioned in the bible!? And how in God's name does he match that Messianic Prophecy? And the rest of your post is bullshit conjecture, unsubstituted shite.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


Oh shit VIP, you definitely poke the bearded beer when the highlander came into comment. He knows too much about these subjects.
Better get back into cave in the alps with your dad
Montclair de Rallo-Tubbs
User ID: 48437688
Germany
10/16/2013 03:13 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Not seeing any reference to black border Israel flag, sorry.
Nile to Euphrates it is
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48436391


The flag is older than Earth itself
Dreamily Resonant VIP

User ID: 48156388
Israel
10/16/2013 03:15 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
there is no THE MESSIAH THE SAVIOUR THE ONE in Daniel 9. it speaks of messiah nagid - cyrus! whom god calls him 'my shepherd"
and A messiah, who was the priest who was cut off! being cut off is always in regards of wicked people! are you saying that jesus was wicked????


also Daniel prophecies about the messiah! only he says he will come at the end of the rule of iron and clay, which are the times we are living in NOW!

jews are not confused, Christians are.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Eh no, it clearly says this,


24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Anoint the most holy you stupid idiot!!! Who will bring in everlasting righteousness and make reconciliation for sin, exactly what Yeshua the Messiah did you imbecile. Is that clear enough for you? So, who was this wicked messiah in your opinion?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


cant you fucking read?? keep reading what the angel says. what the angel says to Daniel obviously doesn't match what you think was to happen during the 70 weeks.

again the one that was cut off was the high priest of the temple.
also in Hebrew it does not say to annoit the most high, this is just another kjv tampering, in Hebrew it says kodesh kodashim which always means the ark and its resting place, there fore we know that the ark is also A MESSIAH.
and in Hebrew it does not say 'not for himself' but that he will have nothing afterwards.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Yeah I can you fucking clown. So are you now claiming that it was a false prophecy? Is that what you are claiming? The only one who matched this was Yeshua the Messiah. Who is this high priest you keep mentioning? What is his name? Surely it would be mentioned in the bible!? And how in God's name does he match that Messianic Prophecy? And the rest of your post is bullshit conjecture, unsubstituted shite.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


are you stupid? THE messiah is not present anywhere in that prophecy. you are seeing things that are not there.
the records tell us that the priest of that day was yannai. and he was indeed cut off with nothing left for him.
prophecy fulfilled.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 48436391
Canada
10/16/2013 03:17 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Not seeing any reference to black border Israel flag, sorry.
Nile to Euphrates it is
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48436391


The flag is older than Earth itself
 Quoting: Montclair de Rallo-Tubbs 48437688


Ok I know what you mean now, my bad.
Mind Control

User ID: 21051903
10/16/2013 03:17 PM

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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Lmao if you don't touch the Jews, they won't touch you. Simple as that. Jews have been persecuted by filth Christians for years. Just let them go.
 Quoting: Mind Control


sbustard
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


You must be a fluoridated idiot who wants to blame your problems on an entire race. Be off now.

Last Edited by Mind Control on 10/16/2013 03:17 PM
“Our minds have been poisoned and our accepted beliefs are unnatural and artificial.”
- Bryant McGill

Stop governments from spying on you by encrypting your communications:
[link to prism-break.org]
Dreamily Resonant VIP

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Israel
10/16/2013 03:17 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
any Christian care to explain why jesus would offer a sin offering in the third temple??

On that day the Prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land. (Ezekiel 45:22)
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


bump

why no one provides me with an answer?? how is that the the perfect lamb of god is not enough??
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 48436391
Canada
10/16/2013 03:21 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
any Christian care to explain why jesus would offer a sin offering in the third temple??

On that day the Prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land. (Ezekiel 45:22)
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


bump

why no one provides me with an answer?? how is that the the perfect lamb of god is not enough??
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Abraham heard this and why cannot you do it
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 48457988
Ireland
10/16/2013 03:23 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
...


Eh no, it clearly says this,


24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Anoint the most holy you stupid idiot!!! Who will bring in everlasting righteousness and make reconciliation for sin, exactly what Yeshua the Messiah did you imbecile. Is that clear enough for you? So, who was this wicked messiah in your opinion?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


cant you fucking read?? keep reading what the angel says. what the angel says to Daniel obviously doesn't match what you think was to happen during the 70 weeks.

again the one that was cut off was the high priest of the temple.
also in Hebrew it does not say to annoit the most high, this is just another kjv tampering, in Hebrew it says kodesh kodashim which always means the ark and its resting place, there fore we know that the ark is also A MESSIAH.
and in Hebrew it does not say 'not for himself' but that he will have nothing afterwards.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Yeah I can you fucking clown. So are you now claiming that it was a false prophecy? Is that what you are claiming? The only one who matched this was Yeshua the Messiah. Who is this high priest you keep mentioning? What is his name? Surely it would be mentioned in the bible!? And how in God's name does he match that Messianic Prophecy? And the rest of your post is bullshit conjecture, unsubstituted shite.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


are you stupid? THE messiah is not present anywhere in that prophecy. you are seeing things that are not there.
the records tell us that the priest of that day was yannai. and he was indeed cut off with nothing left for him.
prophecy fulfilled.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


No I think you are. It is clearly a Messianic Prophecy,

"24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Are you so stupidly claiming once again that that prophecy refers to an evil priest whom most don't even know his name?

And just lol at this,

"the records tell us that the priest of that day was yannai. and he was indeed cut off with nothing left for him.
prophecy fulfilled."

The records? Where in the word of God, the real word of God, not the stinking talmud, the laws/musings of wicked men is this yanni found? Someone of such high esteem that he is even mentioned in a prophecy by the Prophet Daniel and who is credited with doing all those awesome things that are listed above? Is that really your stance? A priest nobody's heard of? What a weak and pitiful argument. You are really making a show out of yourself now convert.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 48457988
Ireland
10/16/2013 03:23 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Lmao if you don't touch the Jews, they won't touch you. Simple as that. Jews have been persecuted by filth Christians for years. Just let them go.
 Quoting: Mind Control


sbustard
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


You must be a fluoridated idiot who wants to blame your problems on an entire race. Be off now.
 Quoting: Mind Control


And you must be retarded.
Dreamily Resonant VIP

User ID: 48156388
Israel
10/16/2013 03:23 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
any Christian care to explain why jesus would offer a sin offering in the third temple??

On that day the Prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land. (Ezekiel 45:22)
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


bump

why no one provides me with an answer?? how is that the the perfect lamb of god is not enough??
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Abraham heard this and why cannot you do it
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48436391


answer my question, why does the prophet say a bull SIN offering would be sacrificed in the third temple.
is jesus not enough?

Abraham never heard of jesus, neither did any jew in the revelation of mount Sinai, and we are ordered to stick to what we heard and saw in "horev"
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 48457988
Ireland
10/16/2013 03:25 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
any Christian care to explain why jesus would offer a sin offering in the third temple??

On that day the Prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land. (Ezekiel 45:22)
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


bump

why no one provides me with an answer?? how is that the the perfect lamb of god is not enough??
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Because there will be a third Temple again and that is the place that God put his name and only where sacrifices are acceptable. Yeshua just became the lamb of God until the third Temple will be built. Quite simple really.
Mind Control

User ID: 21051903
10/16/2013 03:25 PM

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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
Lmao if you don't touch the Jews, they won't touch you. Simple as that. Jews have been persecuted by filth Christians for years. Just let them go.
 Quoting: Mind Control


sbustard
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


You must be a fluoridated idiot who wants to blame your problems on an entire race. Be off now.
 Quoting: Mind Control


And you must be retarded.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


And you must be an ostrich.

ostrich
“Our minds have been poisoned and our accepted beliefs are unnatural and artificial.”
- Bryant McGill

Stop governments from spying on you by encrypting your communications:
[link to prism-break.org]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 48457988
Ireland
10/16/2013 03:25 PM
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Re: Some thoughts on Jews
...


cant you fucking read?? keep reading what the angel says. what the angel says to Daniel obviously doesn't match what you think was to happen during the 70 weeks.

again the one that was cut off was the high priest of the temple.
also in Hebrew it does not say to annoit the most high, this is just another kjv tampering, in Hebrew it says kodesh kodashim which always means the ark and its resting place, there fore we know that the ark is also A MESSIAH.
and in Hebrew it does not say 'not for himself' but that he will have nothing afterwards.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


Yeah I can you fucking clown. So are you now claiming that it was a false prophecy? Is that what you are claiming? The only one who matched this was Yeshua the Messiah. Who is this high priest you keep mentioning? What is his name? Surely it would be mentioned in the bible!? And how in God's name does he match that Messianic Prophecy? And the rest of your post is bullshit conjecture, unsubstituted shite.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


are you stupid? THE messiah is not present anywhere in that prophecy. you are seeing things that are not there.
the records tell us that the priest of that day was yannai. and he was indeed cut off with nothing left for him.
prophecy fulfilled.
 Quoting: Dreamily Resonant VIP


No I think you are. It is clearly a Messianic Prophecy,

"24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Are you so stupidly claiming once again that that prophecy refers to an evil priest whom most don't even know his name?

And just lol at this,

"the records tell us that the priest of that day was yannai. and he was indeed cut off with nothing left for him.
prophecy fulfilled."

The records? Where in the word of God, the real word of God, not the stinking talmud, the laws/musings of wicked men is this yanni found? Someone of such high esteem that he is even mentioned in a prophecy by the Prophet Daniel and who is credited with doing all those awesome things that are listed above? Is that really your stance? A priest nobody's heard of? What a weak and pitiful argument. You are really making a show out of yourself now convert.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48457988


How could an evil priest bring in everlasting righteousness tard?

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