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It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place

 
ScienceOnly
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05/30/2006 08:17 AM
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It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Hey there cyber-friends! flower

I wanted to post my observations in a new thread since the old "Sun is in the wrong place" thread ended up being reduced to a argument between two posters.

Last night I took careful compass readings on the setting sun. This morning I did the same. In both cases I adjusted for the local difference between magnetic north and true north.

I then compared the values to values derived from an astronomy software package I use called Starry Night. It is programmed for my local position on Earth.

What I found was very interesting and I want you guys to know about it without having to mine it out of pages and pages of a thread lost to a battle of wits.

The sun both set and rose between 3 and 4 degrees to the north of where it should have. Let's call it 3 degrees to be conservative.

For the purposes of this thread, let's PLEASE not get into a mode of debunking the observations. Let's use this as a mental exercise.

Let's assume that these readings are accurate.

What does this imply?

What possible cause(s) could be at play?

I have an opinion and will post it next...
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 08:29 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
First of all, what it is not.

It can't be a change to the velocity of the spin of the Earth.

This morning the sun rose in a north to south direction. Because of the curvature of the Earth, the sun rose north of east, moving up in the sky and to the south. 20 minutes before I took the reading this morning, the sun did in fact rest 3 degrees north.

In other words, I could have taken the reading, then dialed up my software program and looked at the azimuth 20 minutes earlier...and the values would have been the same...the sun would have been lower in the sky as well...but the compass heading would have agreed with the software.

So, one is tempted to say that the Earth could be rotating faster, and the sun came up 20 minutes early.

However, let's not forget the measurements I took last night. Last night, as the sun was headed down into the horizon, it was moving from the south to the north. This time in order to make the compass agree with the software, I would have had to look at the software 20 minutes into the future of when I actually took the measurements.

Therefore, the Earth cannot be speeding and slowing up...just not possible...we'd all be dead from the crustal displacements.

In fact, the magnitude of the difference I measured and what the software program stated was the correct position (azimuth) was the same.

So that means the measurements I took verify the speed of the Earth is actually constant...which we all know already.

So, what could be the cause?
Real Science ONLY
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05/30/2006 08:32 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
why do you post such a

bsflag
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 08:33 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Could the Earth be wobbling off its axzis?

Yes, but I also took a reading on polaris last night and polaris was where I expected it to be...not 3 degrees off.

It would be impossible to take a reading of the sun one moment and get a 3 degrees difference and the next moment take a reading on polaris and get a good reading.

Also, the fact that the degree of difference in my two readings were consistent, which means that by chance, the wobble would have returned to it's same bad-orientation between the evening when I took the first measurement and the morning when I took the second measurement.

So, in this case, the wobble..if it exists, is not part of this issue.

What else could be the cause?
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 08:34 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
real science ONLY,

What have I posted that is BS?

Be specific and we can converse...if you are interested in science at all?
observant
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05/30/2006 08:39 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Hi, Science Only!
I appreciate your methodical approach to the comet SW-3 observations (still in progress, no doubt). I have noted on numerous sun threads that it is brighter, but in my built-up neck of the burbs, it's hard to get a good fix on sunrise and sunset locations.

It is more logical to me that the earth's orbit -- or tilt is what is changing. If the tilt of the earth -- or the shape of the earth shifted, wouldn't that result in a change in sunrise/moorise and sunset/moonset locations? And wouldn't those kinds of changes be more noticeable the further north or south (as in Oz) you are?

I am curious as to your thoughts on this.
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 08:39 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Could the Earth be wobbling off its axzis?

Yes, but I also took a reading on polaris last night and polaris was where I expected it to be...not 3 degrees off.



Have you ever seen pictures of the moon that shows off it's wobble? That's why we can see more than 50 percent of it's surface. Maybe the earth wobbles in the same way, and always has. It seems possible. I would guess that the moons' wobble is due to gravitational or magnetic pulls, why not the same for earth?
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 08:39 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Is it possible that your software program is outdated? Or having a glitch?
Just asking. Never worked with one of them (star soft).
Though I work as a QA engineer and I know that ALL programs are prone to bugs. And all have BUGS :D
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 08:40 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
To get to the point,

What I believe to be a plausible explanation, is that the Earth has been pulled down.

Most likely all the smaller planets have as well.

A visual of this would be as though you are looking at the solar system from space from the side...across the ecliptic plane. Now move the sun up just a bit.

If there is a force below the solar system pulling down, it would not just pull down the Earth, but all similarly-sized celestial bodies. So the moon and the other planets would not necessarily look different...but we would get a slightly different shadow on the moon during an eclipse.

If we were squarely oriented to the sun, to produce a 3 degree change in position it would take a shift of about 8 million kilometers...well outside the range of possibilities.

This is because the magnitude of the change would disorient the stars and such...things would truly look different.

But...
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 08:46 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
"...the speed of the Earth is actually constant..."

SO, the Bible says the sun goes around the earth. Solomon wrote of it, and it is stated that in one of the battles, Joshua commanded the sun and the moon to stand still. Notice, he didn't command the Earth to stand still.

There is good argument from some knowledgeable posters here that the Earth does not revolve around the sun. I didn't post this to stir up an argument, but for civil discussion. However, given the temperament of some...

I am more inclined to believe Biblical accounts rather than man's pseudo science. After all, the men of old were highly educated in the sciences. It is possible that the sun itself has changed course and is the reason that your calculations are true.
.
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 08:51 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
...but what we have to remember is that the Earth is round, and we are tilted towards it right now.

Any slight shift down would cause the sun to slide over quite a bit. I'm not good enough with geometry, but here's a visual:

Suppose you are looking at a source of light in the distance...say a street light.

Now, imagine holding a basketball up to hide the light.

First, orient the basketball where the street light is down on the side...at the 3 o'clock position...so that to hide the light you move the basketball slightly to the right.

As you can tell, an up and down movement of the basketball does not produce any different effect than if you were using a square block of wood.

But now orient the ball where the light is at about 1 or 2 o'clock. As you move the ball up and down, now you realize that the effect is quite different!

The effect is amplified GREATLY from the vantage point of a person standing at 12 o'clock!

What I'm trying to say is that since we live on a ball, a movement downward of the Earth with respect to the sun would cause an exaggerated shft towards what we would call north here on Earth.

And, yes, the sun would appear to rise early...and set later...for the people in the northern hemisphere.

I know this is a compliated geometric exercise, but what I'm trying to get across here is the principle that the Earth doesn't have to be 8 million kilometers lower in its orbit to produce the same effect...because it is round.
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 08:56 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
cyber-friends,

it is easy to see the work of people who have an interest in distracting from a thread...let's not let that happen.

The poster who wrote about the sun revolving around the earth could not be so ill-advised and still be able to form a sentence...much less use a computer.
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 09:04 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Observant,

In this case I do not think it is the tilt...it could be, but I think it has more to do with the position of the entire Earth.

I especially appreciate your speculation on the Earth's shape!

Yes, that could be the sole cause or a contributing cause. If the Earth was growing fatter...changing from a ball shape to more of a doughnut shape, the sun would appear to rise earlier, set later, and both the rising and setting would happen a little to the north than expected.

Very good idea. I wonder how much the change to the shape would have to be to produce a 3 degree change?
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 09:06 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
All relative angles and directions I'm providing are from the vantage point of the north hemisphere...since that's how I'm oriented.

It would be a different effect for southern hemisphere people...perhaps we can figure it out...
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 09:09 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Anyway,

I have to be getting on with my day...

I wanted to provide all of you with the measurements I took so that you would be informed.

Depending if anyone is interested in this train of thought...I will post more. I'm doing it for you guys...not me.

I already know things are completly FUBAR!

chorus
observant
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05/30/2006 09:19 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Here are a couple of articles about the change in the earth's shape -- apparently scientsts have observed that earthquakes and weather can change. I suspect there is more inter-relativity than this!

for links google 'change in earth shape'.

Earthquakes Can Change the Earth's Shape
Scientists from NASA have determined that the December 26, 2004 Indonesian earthquake, the fourth largest earthquake in the past 100 years, may have changed our planet's shape. As a result of the earthquake, they believe the bulge around the Earth's equator has decreased. This slight decrease in girth has increased the speed of Earth's spin on its axis, which if correct, means the length of the day will decrease by 2.68 microseconds. These numbers have yet to be confirmed by actual measurements from ground and space borne sensors measuring Earth's rotation.


Most changes in Earth's shape are due to changes in climate

PRESS RELEASE
Date Released: Monday, January 10, 2005
Source: Goddard Space Flight Center


Scientists using NASA satellite data found the shape of the Earth appears to be influenced by big climate events that cause changes in the mass of water stored in oceans, continents and atmosphere.

The study's principal researchers are Minkang Cheng and Byron D. Tapley, of the Center for Space Research, University of Texas at Austin. They reviewed climate events like El NiÒo Southern Oscillation (ENSO) and Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) that affect the amount of water moving in the oceans, atmosphere and continents.

The study shows significant variations in the shape of the Earth, defined by the Earth's gravity field, or geoid, during the past 28 years might be partially linked to climate events. The study examined Earth's oblateness, how much its rounded shape flattens at the poles and widens at the equator. Scientists measured the distance from ground stations to satellites by using Satellite Laser Ranging (SLR) data that are accurate within one millimeter.

The data reflected mass changes as water redistributed in oceans, atmosphere, and in soil. The redistribution resulted in slight changes of the Earth's gravity field, detectable with geodetic satellites, those that study of the size and shape of the Earth.

The researchers found over the past 28 years, two large variations in the Earth's oblateness were connected to strong ENSO events. Variations in mass distribution, which caused the change in the gravity field, were predominantly over the continents, with a smaller contribution due to changes over the ocean. The cause of a variation in the Earth's mass over the 21-year period between 1978 and 2001, however, still remains a mystery.

The scientists also found that another change in mass distribution may have started in late 2002, which coincides with the moderate El NiÒo that developed at that time.

"The main idea, however, is that the Earth's large scale transport of mass is related to the long-term global climate changes," said Cheng.

Cheng and Tapley's research relied on NASA's SLR data to measure changes in the longest wavelengths of the Earth's gravity field in order to see how the global-scale mass was redistributed around the world.

The Earth's gravity is an invisible force of attraction that pulls masses together. The relative motion of a small lighter object, such as a spacecraft, to a large heavy object such as the Earth, depends on how much mass each object has and how that mass is distributed. Scientists can measure the changes in Earth's gravitational pull using instruments on the ground to track satellites in space. So, water mass shifts on Earth and the changes in shape of the Earth can be detected.

The long-term history of the SLR measurements make it possible for scientists to see the changes over time in melting glaciers and polar ice sheets and the associated sea level change. The SLR data have also been used to detect the motion of global tectonic plates on which landmasses rest, the deformation of the Earth's crusts near plate boundaries, and the orientation and rate of spin of the Earth.

In March 2002, NASA and the German Aerospace Center launched the Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (GRACE) to sense small-scale variations in Earth's gravitational pull from local changes in Earth's mass. GRACE data will assist with future studies similar to Cheng and Tapley's research. The GRACE satellite, together with 18 other NASA research satellites, have opened new windows to exploring Earth and to understanding the intricate processes that support life.

The study was published in a recent issue of the Journal of Geophysical Research-Solid Earth.
Fartman

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05/30/2006 09:36 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Science dude!!! nice post man...no really, i'm not all that science savy but you seem to make sense to me dude............ butt worship
Brakes is gone!! "Weeze fweewheelin!"

Just say "NO!" to Luciferian Insectazoids.

"I am not here"...what is here?..Isn't here just there without a T...?
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 09:43 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Observant and others,

I thought of a better example than that of the basketball.

Imagine blocking the same streetlight with a pencil.

If you hold the pencil straight up and down, and move it up and down, the person way over to the left gets no advantage whatsoever to the movement.

But now take the pencil, turn it on its side so that it is nearly horizontal, slightly higher on the left side. Now put an imaginary person on the left end of the pencil.

Orient the pencil so that it is blocking the light down on the right end of the pencil.

Now when the pencil is moved down slightly the light penetrates all the way to the other end...allowing the person positioned a the left end to see much more of the light.

On Earth, the more you are positioned closer to the equator, the more the pencil is vertical...but the closer you are to the north pole the more the pencil is positioned horizontal.

Again, it's a very complicated geometric problem to solve mathematically...that is:

How much do you have to lower the Earth in its orbit, to produce a 3 degree shift in the sun's position, when the person making the observation is positioned at 38 degrees latitude, while the Earth itself is tilted at 23.45 degrees, and is rotating around that tilted axis.

Also, one needs to keep in mind that directions (north, south, east, and west), when speaking of compass heading, is not the same as celestial north...or north in space.

Compass directions to us are simply directions of spin around, but in the same plane as the ecliptic.

If a person holds a hulla hoop at the level of his head, with his head inside the hulla hoop, the north, south, east, ans west directions are dreived simply by turning the head left or right.

The orentation of what we call north has nothing to do with the "North" of the solar system. The north of the solar system is what you get if you look up...towards the north star.
ScienceOnly (OP)

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05/30/2006 09:44 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Thanks Mr. Fartman!
4by2
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05/30/2006 10:18 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Great post SO!!

I've certainly noticed the Sun setting further north than I've ever seen it and last night the Moon set at almost the exact spot as the Sun had set; again something that I've never witnessed before. The Moon set at around 00:30.

The northern sky was still showing light from the setting Sun at 01:30 this morning when I hit the hay. I thought that it was very strange.

I'm in Scotland and have always taken a great interest in the setting Sun due to the view (NW) I have, it's quite a beautiful sight when the Sun sets behind the hills on the opposite side of the valley from me.

These are just my observations, but they do seem to confirm what you are putting forward.

Thanks for posting!

cheers
Red Hot Chilean Pepe (nli)
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05/30/2006 10:44 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
I Apprecciate your intent of making a debate about possible causes of an observational discrepance between predicted and measured.

I'd say that change in earth tilt could be a possible explanation to affect apparent position of sun both at sunrise and sunset. However I could not offer a theory that could also match a correct Polaris settlement.
fcuk wit
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05/30/2006 11:07 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
The earth IS changing shape, earthquakes don't cause the change in shape..............the change in shape produces more earthquakes and volcanic activity.

So whats causing the change in shape?
The earth as most will be aware is actually apple shaped, its squashed at the south pole due to the sheer weight of ice ON antartica, that ice's weight pushes down on the crust, unlike the northpole which has no effect on the crust since its weight is displaced wby the water its floating in.

So as antarctican ice weight decreases, the earth starts to take on a truer round shape, resulting in crustal displacement giving rise to increase in volcanic activity and techtonic stresses causing earthquakes and hence in turn weather changes also.

And so the earths circumference at the equator should get slightly shorter.

The cause of the warming is the issue, manmade or solar phenomena??

With mars and several planetary moons also getting warmer, one could assume that we're looking at a solar event, and maybe one thats naturally cyclical.

Conclusion:
Our nearest neighbouring link in this massive chain of events, is the sun, whats causing the suns changes is a question probably best left to quantum physics.
We as life forms are an integral part of this chain of events too, if the sun grows colder we burn more energy on earth resulting in the production of greenhouse gasses and hence the planets temperature stabalises, the sun grows hotter we burn less fuels, however we aren't addressing that balance thanks to industialism and capitalism.

Everything in existance seeks balance, and although we can change the scale values of our tiny corner of the universe, we'll never change the greater universal scales, so all our efforts to affect change at our level makes no difference in the greater scheme.
If ya gonna die....ya GONNA die!
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 11:10 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Remember the perturbations in the outer planets? Scientists concurred that some form of outer celestial body was causing the perturbations. Well, in theory if such a body was moving into the inner solar system from below the ecliptic plane, could it not cause the same perturbations on the inner planets, hence the new skewed calculations and solar disturbances? I know what this sounds like I am implying, but not to get off on a Nancy Lieder rant, is it possible?
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 11:14 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
imho: 73p was electromagnetically charged and during fucked up sun poles it got so close to out globe that it stirred our poles also. Now it´s polechange or somekind of tilt in axis going on.
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 11:17 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Hmm, if this scenario is sensible, it could also account for more EQ and volcanic activity as well as weird weather anomalies, hurricanes, hail, droughts, floods etc.
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 11:17 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
"The poster who wrote about the sun revolving around the earth could not be so ill-advised and still be able to form a sentence...much less use a computer."

You will believe what you will, SO, and I will wonder about why you will not consider an opposite point of view. You are somewhat more intelligent than many, but not too open to anything that your "god of science" doesn not provide.

Did you not know that astronomers had to look into the Scriptures to find the 24 hours, 15 minutes that were missing in their calculations? Hmmmmmmm.

They found them in the account of Joshua's command that the sun and moon should stand still, and they did for 24 hours. Next was the story of when the sundial went backwards 15 minutes. Now, how do you suppose that happened? Or do you think the Bible to be a myth?
.
Nerak
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05/30/2006 11:21 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Interesting post Science. The only thing that I can think of is the fact that the sun is so much closer relative to the north star that a slight change in earth shape or position while observable when using the sun a relativly close object might not be noticable using such a distant object as the north star. Just a thought.
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 11:37 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Science Only says:

"What I believe to be a plausible explanation, is that the Earth has been pulled down.
Most likely all the smaller planets have as well."

If it were a plausible statement, you'd want to postulate some force that made sense. The only force I know of that can "pull something down" is GRAVITY.

Gravity's force is a function of distance and mass. If "something" pulled the Earth (and all the other planets) down so abruptly, then why didn't the force pull the Sun down, as well?

In order for your hypothesis to work, you'd have to invent a whole new force that SELECTIVELY "pulls stuff down". And that is certainly NOT "most likely".

Furthermore...

A hallmark of the Scientific Method is that observations can (and should) be repeated by a number of investigators to eliminate the chance the first observation were in error, or that the results were anomalous.

There are thousands of people here in the United States who are paid lots and lots of money to carefully examine meteorological phenomena. These same individuals have sound educations, lots of experience, and both the equipment and methodologies to measure any deviation of just about any astronomical or meteorological phenomenon.

Something as drastic as a variation in the apparent location of the Sun at any time of any day of the year would certainly have gotten these peoples' attention, and such attention would have manifested itself in further studies and a spate of reports; not only in technical journals, but in the mainstream press.

As far as I know, no such reports are extant.

This leads me to believe that your report is invalid, probably because your measurements were in error. Perhaps your methodology may be invalid, but I don't think so. Your posted methodology makes sense to me.

Of course, if you can point me to any independent validation of your research, I would certainly be anxious to see it.
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 11:53 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
I suspect that the sun is disturbed by the gravitational forces of some sort. The sun is very active, more so than it should be right now. Being that it is so immense, no ordinary planetary body could push or pull on it, but would be able to disrupt and agitate solar activity. Planetary bodies like mercury, mars and the earth could be manipulated by gravitational forces and said forces could explain the high activity on earth and skewed calculations. Recently was it not published that researchers agreed that 2012 was going to hold great solar activity and changes? Could this be the first signs of the changes that are imminent?
JCD...nli
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05/30/2006 11:57 AM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
SO, is the galctic plane and the eliptic plane the same or two different entities? If they are seperate entities, maybe it is the galactic plane exuding some type of force as we near it to pass through it, or could it cause a bending of the light, similar to when you look through a glass of water or a mirage type thing?

These may not be intelligent questions, but some of us know very little about this sugject. Thank you for your time.
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2006 01:03 PM
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Re: It's not the sun, it's the Earth that's out of place
Excellent post science.

bump For awareness.

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