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Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.

 
Life and Love
Live life fully!

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12/08/2013 05:28 PM
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
I would like to know in how God tells you no? I mean is it intuition -a voice ? I have also wondered about this as well. Neale Donald walsh published books etc. claiming he can answer almost all questions regarding life -religion- almost everything as he has stated- he talks directly to God and God answers him-- I would pray and I would like to see if you or anyone else has or knows of this person's legit?? These are trying times and I am seeking good answers from you as you seem far more adept than me to have things maybe revealed to you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 51157473


I would use three tests:

(1) To what extent is the person's teachings consistent with what the Gospel is?

(2) Does the person doing the teaching know what the Gospel is for?

(3) Does the person himself/herself live into the purpose of the Gospel?

As to Neale Donald Walsh, I read a couple of his books decades ago. I can't recall anything in them that would let me answer any of my questions with a yes.
 Quoting: Life and Love


I tend to agree with you I however am always seeking and it just amazes me how some can make these claims yet!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 51157473


Most (but not all) people making such claims are probably quite decent people. But even decent people can be deceived themselves and even unwittingly deceive others. Remember tha it is "many" who will come in Jesus' name, even agreeing that Jesus is Messiah, and the will deceive the "many."

No one is immune, certainly not I. I spend much time in prayer and discernment before teaching and discipling others.
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
Salt, what do you think of John MacAuthur?
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12/08/2013 05:30 PM
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well, that didn't take long for him to fail the test miserably. he is a new age guy who based some of his teaching off Course in Miracles which is as demonic as can be.


from an article:
The key to understanding Neale Donald Walsch is to realize that he is part of the New Thought movement. His ideas are very similar to other writers in this movement such as Rhonda Byrne, Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer and Terry Cole-Whittaker.

snip
Walsch says that either we keep religious fundamentalism or we have new spiritual revelations. (NR, p. 64) As religious fundamentalism is the root cause of our civilization’s crisis, he thinks we need a new spiritual revelation: his books, which he claims are channeled from God. He says that this new revelation in his books will expand the insights of religions; it will not reject their insights, but rejuvenate them. “The world must create a New Spirituality.

[link to www.spiritualcritiques.com]




this guy is bad news. badbadbad... he claims openly that he channels messages from God. wow...

siren2
 Quoting: Salt
Thank you much SALT this is what I was talking about the channeling from God part like wow-ya know?? Anyways you helped me with this one!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 51157473


Course In Miracles is all about channelling and other really satanic stuff. it basically negates Christ, negates the passion/cross, etc and is chock full of occult ideas and practices.

if it feels wrong to you, it probably is.
Abide in Christ and he will abide in you.
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12/08/2013 05:32 PM
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
Salt, what do you think of John MacAuthur?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34104390


before i tell you, do a search using his name and add the word "false"

many opinions will probably pop up. doesn't mean they are right.

pray and ask God to direct you in your answer and direct you to the right informative site, if there is one

then come back and report what you found.
Anonymous Coward
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More questions I have are if God realizes we want the truth and to find Him why does it appear like this and so very difficult? I have been searching for along time to make myself a much more valuable person thru Christ it just seems like a battle for truth always!I like your path Salt and thanks for all.
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12/08/2013 05:34 PM
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I believe John MacAuthur is the real deal as well.
furPete'sSake

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12/08/2013 05:35 PM

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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
Salt, what do you think of John MacAuthur?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34104390


before i tell you, do a search using his name and add the word "false"

many opinions will probably pop up. doesn't mean they are right.

pray and ask God to direct you in your answer and direct you to the right informative site, if there is one

then come back and report what you found.
 Quoting: Salt


lol, this wont work, as the Charismatics and Catholics hate him. I have gone to a Grace Bible church, they are bible based and straight shooting. Only reason I don't now is I moved
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/08/2013 05:36 PM
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
More questions I have are if God realizes we want the truth and to find Him why does it appear like this and so very difficult? I have been searching for along time to make myself a much more valuable person thru Christ it just seems like a battle for truth always!I like your path Salt and thanks for all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 51157473


i can't answer that for you.
but, scripture clearly tells us that there will be grand-scale deception in the world and we need to keep watch and be careful.
personally, i like the idea of being as close to God in every breath i take in each day. i can't imagine getting thru one single day without His protection and covering.
the world is fallen. we need God today.
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 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21758347


hf
furPete'sSake

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12/08/2013 05:37 PM

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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
I believe John MacAuthur is the real deal as well.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34104390


He is, I swear it on the KJV
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12/08/2013 05:38 PM
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
Salt, what do you think of John MacAuthur?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34104390


before i tell you, do a search using his name and add the word "false"

many opinions will probably pop up. doesn't mean they are right.

pray and ask God to direct you in your answer and direct you to the right informative site, if there is one

then come back and report what you found.
 Quoting: Salt


lol, this wont work, as the Charismatics and Catholics hate him. I have gone to a Grace Bible church, they are bible based and straight shooting. Only reason I don't now is I moved
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


sure it will. don't under estimate God's ability to open the eyes of this person who does the search. personally, if the charismatics and catholics hate him, he must be doing something right... chuckle
furPete'sSake

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12/08/2013 05:41 PM

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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
Salt, what do you think of John MacAuthur?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34104390


before i tell you, do a search using his name and add the word "false"

many opinions will probably pop up. doesn't mean they are right.

pray and ask God to direct you in your answer and direct you to the right informative site, if there is one

then come back and report what you found.
 Quoting: Salt


lol, this wont work, as the Charismatics and Catholics hate him. I have gone to a Grace Bible church, they are bible based and straight shooting. Only reason I don't now is I moved
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


sure it will. don't under estimate God's ability to open the eyes of this person who does the search. personally, if the charismatics and catholics hate him, he must be doing something right... chuckle
 Quoting: Salt

you're pretty conservative, you should know more about him. He has sermons online, some very good ones on the chaos in the charismatic churches, and the fastest growing section of the catholic churches are now charismatic too, I don't think a lot of people realize that.
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12/08/2013 05:44 PM
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
...


before i tell you, do a search using his name and add the word "false"

many opinions will probably pop up. doesn't mean they are right.

pray and ask God to direct you in your answer and direct you to the right informative site, if there is one

then come back and report what you found.
 Quoting: Salt


lol, this wont work, as the Charismatics and Catholics hate him. I have gone to a Grace Bible church, they are bible based and straight shooting. Only reason I don't now is I moved
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


sure it will. don't under estimate God's ability to open the eyes of this person who does the search. personally, if the charismatics and catholics hate him, he must be doing something right... chuckle
 Quoting: Salt

you're pretty conservative, you should know more about him. He has sermons online, some very good ones on the chaos in the charismatic churches, and the fastest growing section of the catholic churches are now charismatic too, I don't think a lot of people realize that.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


i have never heard of him, but i have been pretty consumed with school the past couple years. i will seek him out and give him a listen. is he a TV guy?
bigD111

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12/08/2013 05:45 PM

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...


before i tell you, do a search using his name and add the word "false"

many opinions will probably pop up. doesn't mean they are right.

pray and ask God to direct you in your answer and direct you to the right informative site, if there is one

then come back and report what you found.
 Quoting: Salt


lol, this wont work, as the Charismatics and Catholics hate him. I have gone to a Grace Bible church, they are bible based and straight shooting. Only reason I don't now is I moved
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


sure it will. don't under estimate God's ability to open the eyes of this person who does the search. personally, if the charismatics and catholics hate him, he must be doing something right... chuckle
 Quoting: Salt

you're pretty conservative, you should know more about him. He has sermons online, some very good ones on the chaos in the charismatic churches, and the fastest growing section of the catholic churches are now charismatic too, I don't think a lot of people realize that.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


Salt, you seem to misunderstand the difference between the tongue spewing heretics in the pentecostal movement and those of us who speak in a tongue that is prayer language between us and God. They are 2 different critters. Just pointing that out.
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.


[link to www.youtube.com]


Part 1 of 9


hf
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12/08/2013 05:47 PM
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[link to www.youtube.com]
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...


lol, this wont work, as the Charismatics and Catholics hate him. I have gone to a Grace Bible church, they are bible based and straight shooting. Only reason I don't now is I moved
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


sure it will. don't under estimate God's ability to open the eyes of this person who does the search. personally, if the charismatics and catholics hate him, he must be doing something right... chuckle
 Quoting: Salt

you're pretty conservative, you should know more about him. He has sermons online, some very good ones on the chaos in the charismatic churches, and the fastest growing section of the catholic churches are now charismatic too, I don't think a lot of people realize that.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


Salt, you seem to misunderstand the difference between the tongue spewing heretics in the pentecostal movement and those of us who speak in a tongue that is prayer language between us and God. They are 2 different critters. Just pointing that out.
 Quoting: bigD111


i am not misunderstanding anything. there are not two different critters, as you put it
jibberish talk is not from GOD
period.
there is no need for tongue talking anymore. to believe so negates giant chunks of the New Testament.
furPete'sSake

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12/08/2013 05:48 PM

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...


lol, this wont work, as the Charismatics and Catholics hate him. I have gone to a Grace Bible church, they are bible based and straight shooting. Only reason I don't now is I moved
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


sure it will. don't under estimate God's ability to open the eyes of this person who does the search. personally, if the charismatics and catholics hate him, he must be doing something right... chuckle
 Quoting: Salt

you're pretty conservative, you should know more about him. He has sermons online, some very good ones on the chaos in the charismatic churches, and the fastest growing section of the catholic churches are now charismatic too, I don't think a lot of people realize that.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


i have never heard of him, but i have been pretty consumed with school the past couple years. i will seek him out and give him a listen. is he a TV guy?
 Quoting: Salt


not that I know of. He has a rather large church in LA, and also they have a theology school called the Master's Program, that only men go to, so women hate him too, lol
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there is NO unknown prayer language between men and God. there is NO scriptural support for such unknown prayer language. there is NO scriptural support for a reason or need for an unknown prayer language.

tongues were human foreign KNOWN languages and dialects that were spoken commonly among very human peoples in real countries/cities/regions and were given to the disciples for the purpose of teaching the gospel of Christ and establishing churches all over the world.

period, end of sentence.
bigD111

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12/08/2013 05:50 PM

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...


sure it will. don't under estimate God's ability to open the eyes of this person who does the search. personally, if the charismatics and catholics hate him, he must be doing something right... chuckle
 Quoting: Salt

you're pretty conservative, you should know more about him. He has sermons online, some very good ones on the chaos in the charismatic churches, and the fastest growing section of the catholic churches are now charismatic too, I don't think a lot of people realize that.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


Salt, you seem to misunderstand the difference between the tongue spewing heretics in the pentecostal movement and those of us who speak in a tongue that is prayer language between us and God. They are 2 different critters. Just pointing that out.
 Quoting: bigD111


i am not misunderstanding anything. there are not two different critters, as you put it
jibberish talk is not from GOD
period.
there is no need for tongue talking anymore. to believe so negates giant chunks of the New Testament.
 Quoting: Salt

I don't agree, so we will just have to disagree.
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD.

Bible Reading: I Corinthians 13:8-13.

Aim: To show that tongues ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.

To show that prophecy and knowledge gifts ceased in 96 AD with the completion of the New Testament.

Introduction: If these three gifts ceased in the first century, then the modern tongues movement is not of God and should be rejected as unbiblical. The following exegesis of I Corinthians 13:8-13, is intended as a springboard to understand how the entire Bible teaching on this subject fits together to show that the purpose of tongues was a warning to Israel, and hence, ceased by 70 AD. It will be shown that prophecy and knowledge gifts were God's temporary means of revelation to the early Church until the completed New Testament had been given. Today, God speaks through His Word, not through some person giving what he calls is a prophecy from God.

I Corinthians 13:8-13.

13:8. "Charity never faileth; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (Greek: Katargethesontai); whether there be tongues, they shall cease (Greek: pausontai), whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" (Greek: Katargethesetai).


Note first that "Charity never faileth". This means that love will continue on forever. It is the only one of the 6 phenomena discussed here that continues forever. This means that faith, hope, prophecy, tongues and knowledge all stop, but when?

I Corinthians 13:13 tells us "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity".

We learn here that faith, hope and charity continue all through the church age. This means that prophecy, tongues and knowledge are not said to continue all through the Church age, but cease sometime before the second coming (rapture) of Christ.


Question 1: When does faith stop?

Answer: When Christ returns at the rapture to catch the church up to heaven.

II Corinthians 5:7. "For we walk by faith, not by sight". When we get to heaven we will see what we had faith in, so that faith will give way to sight.
I Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end5056 (Greek: telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls".This tells us that faith will end when we get to heaven, thus enjoying salvation or deliverance from the presence of sin. "Telos" means "end, result, termination, ultimate fate, completion in respect to time, or fulfilment".

Hence faith for us ends at the second coming of Christ.

Hebrews 12:2: "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher5047(teleiotes) of our faith."

Jesus Christ finishes our faith when He returns for us at His second coming, and we "reach our goal" ("teleiotes" in Greek) of heaven.


Question 2: When does HOPE stop?

Answer: When we get what we are hoping for in heaven. For example, if you are married, you are not hoping to get married because you then possess what you hoped for. Believers are hoping for Christ's second coming (Titus 2:13), and the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6). When we have what we hope for, then hope finishes. "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". Titus 2:13.

"..of the hope and resurrection of the dead am I called in question". Acts 23:6 and Acts 26:6.

"....hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:24.

Hope will only remain until we see Christ and receive our resurrection bodies at His second coming. Hence hope is valid only until the second coming.

Hence faith will be lost in sight; hope will be lost in reality; and love continues for all eternity.

I Corinthians 13:13. "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity". Because only faith, hope and charity are abiding throughout the church age, these three alone, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge must cease sometime INSIDE the church age. The time these (and the other temporary gifts) ceased had to have been before the completion of the New Testament.

Question 3: When do prophecy, and knowledge gifts cease?

Answer: "Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail2673 (Greek: Katargethesontai);......whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away2673 (Greek Katargethesetai)."

Meaning: "Katargeo" means to render inoperative, to make inactive, to be done away, to supercede, put an end to. With Paul it always denotes a complete cessation, not a temporary or partial ceasing.

Every occurrence of "Katargeo" in 13:8,10 is in the passive voice, indicating that something shall make prophecy and knowledge inactive.

Question 4: What are prophecy and knowledge?

1. The gift of prohecy in the apostolic church was speaking new revelation from God, to instruct and edify. Prophecy has a secondary meaning of forthtelling God's Word to teach and comfort the Church.

This is Bible teaching of today. Teaching replaced first century prophecy. A person knew, then prophesied. They were twin gifts.

2. The gift of knowledge in the apostolic Church was the ability to understand and know the mind and will of God. It was revealed truth, not learned. It is seeing as the Holy spirit sees. It was used to teach believers certain doctrines which had not as yet been written as part of the New Testament.

For example, Peter knew who Jesus really was. Matthew 16:17.

Agabus knew and then prophesied about Paul being bound at Jerusalem. Acts 21:10-12.

Paul knew the demonised damsel's mesage to be false. Acts 16:18

Such knowledge, like prophecy, was as authoritative as the scriptures in the early church.

Each of these gifts can refer to either:

a) an action - the exercising of the gifts in the church where he prophesies or gives a word of knowledge.

b) content - in Matthew 13:14,15 Christ quotes what Isaiah said 750 years earlier, which was now part of Scripture. When prophecy or knowledge became codified as scripture, they stood alone, no longer as the "act" of prophecy and knowledge, but as the "content" of prophecy and knowledge, now become written scripture.

3. The gift of tongues or unlearned languages, was similar yet inferior to prophecy and knowledge in that the tongues speaker needed to be translated.

Paul said in I Corinthian 14:18,19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue".

Speaking in a tongue and having it translated only allows the speaker to say half as much in a given time, as could a prophet or word of knowledge in the common tongue. Tongues were cumbersome verbage. Prophecy, tongues and knowledge form the subject of 1 Corinthian 13:8-13. Something is going to happen to each of them. None of them are to abide during the Church age, as will faith, hope and love. They are transient gifts.

13:8. "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease 3973" (Greek: pausontai).

Here "pausontai is used in an absolute sense, to cease, to come to an end".

["The Complete N.T. Word Study Dictionary", S. Zhodiates, p.1132.]

"Pausontai" is in the middle voice, indicative mood, meaning that the action of ceasing will come from within, rather than from outside.

"Cease" means that tongues would fulfil their function (of warning jewish people of coming Judgment), and render themselves obsolete, unneeded, ended. Literally it means "tongues shall make themselves to cease, or automatically cease of themselves." [A.T. Robertson Vol.IV, p.179.]

13.9. "For we know in part, and we prophecy in part". Since v.9 omits tongues, it would appear that tongues would cease before the removal of prophecy and knowledge. "In part" defines quantity, and the word "perfect" meaning "complete" is the opposite to "in part".

Knowledge of doctrine in the pre-canon period of the Church Age was fragmentary. The 14 mystery doctrines of this dispensation had not yet been completely given in New Testament Scripture. They could only teach from the Old Testament and by direct revelation from God via prophecy and knowledge. They knew in part, and consequently, they prophesied in part.

13:10. "But when that which is perfect (Greek: "teleion" meaning complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (Greek: "Katargetheseta" meaning to render inoperative). Prophecy and knowledge, both being ""in part"", will be done away with when the perfect shall come.

Question 5: When does the perfect come?

a) If it is the second coming of Christ, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge are allowable today.

b) If it is the completed New Testament Scriptures of 96 AD then prophecy, tongues and knowledge have all ceased in the first entury and are not for today.

Question 6: To answer question 5, we must ask another question: What is "that which is perfect?"

Answer: Several opinions are: 1. Jesus Christ at His second coming. 2. the perfected state of the believer at Christ''s return. 3. After the millenium in the new heaven and new earth. 4. the completed New Testament Scriptures.Consider these reasons why the perfect refers to the completed New Testament scriptures:

1. "When that (Greek: To Teleion) which is perfect is come"

The pronoun "THAT" in Greek, describing the perfect, is neuter.

Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.

2. "Perfect" in Greek means "complete, finished". The N.T. by 96 AD was completed and finished as God's revelation for this Church age. The completed N.T. canon of Scripture would serve the same purpose that prophecy, tongues, knowledge, apostleship, healing, miracles and other temporary spiritual gifts had once performed. Christ is never called the complete or finished one.

3. "Perfect" cannot mean Christ's return, becaue Christ's second coming is foreign to the context of I Corinthians 12,13,14 being mentioned nowhere in these 3 chapters. The subject of I Corinthians 12, 13,14 is spiritual gifts to the church in the church age. To extend prophecy, tongues and knowledge into the millenium or after the millenium is to miss the focus and context of the passage.

4. James 1:25 describes the perfect as the Bible, the perfect law of liberty.

The meaning of "perfect" in scripture can be determined by it's use in other passages of scripture. "Teleion", the "perfect" or "completed" was already in the New Testament when Paul wrote. James had alrady referred to the Word of God as the "perfect law of liberty in" James 1:25.

"But be ye doors of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your ownselves."

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:22, 25.

"Perfect" in James 1:25 in Greek is "teleion" the same as "perfect" in 1 Corinthian 13:10. In James 1:25 "perfect" clearly refers to the soon to be completed Bible, and this must be the same meaning in I Corinthians 13:10.

In James 1:22-25 the perfect law of liberty is the Bible.

Therefore, in I Corinthians 13:10 the perfect is the Bible.

5. James 1:23 and 1 Corinthinas 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in.

"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass." James 1:23.

"For now we see through a glass darkly; but then (when the perfect, completed Bible has come) face to face" 1 Corinthians 13:12.

As we look into a mirror to see our true physical condition of our face, so we look into the Bible as a mirror to see our true spiritual condition.

Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance.

Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance.

Therefore, GLASS MIRROR = PERFECT = the WORD OF GOD.

1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does.

6. II Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us.

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord".

The mirror/glass is a symbol of the Word of God. (James 1:22,25).

As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

We can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ ("He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son....". Romans 8:29) and go from glory to glory, by the Holy Spirit changing us as we saturate ourselves in the Word of God.

"are changed (Greek: metamorphoumetha) into the same image from glory to glory". The Greek word "changed" gives us the word "metamorphosis" which describes the process of an insect changing from an ugly worm into a mature beautiful butterfly. The changes come from within. So it is when we meditate on God's Word and in it see Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit transforms us into the image of Jesus Christ.

In the Bible we see the glory of Christ and are changed into His image.

13:12. In I Corinthians 13:12, only a few New Testament books were completed. The glory of the Lord revealed in the word was not complete. First century believers could neither see Christ, nor themselves, in the full light of God's revelation. They could only see darkly or dimly. However with the completion of Scripture, not only would the glory of Christ be revealed in greater fullness, but so would the believer's own reflection become clearer. Why? Because the believer after 96 AD has more Scripture to transform him into Christ's image.

The "perfect" is the opposite of that which is "in part."

Paul viewed his own writings as Scripture (1 Thessalonians 2:13) He knew that new revelation was being given and that one day it would cease. In the same way that God had completed the Old Testament, God would also complete the New Testament. Paul's use of the phrases "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (13:9) show that he is dealing with a partially completed Bible that was being added to by the Apostle's revelations from God.

1. The Second Coming is never called "perfect" in the New Testament, but the Bible is called the perfect law of liberty in James 1:25.

Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul......."

2. The completed New Testament fulfilled the same job as did the temporary gifts of prophecy and knowledge. Once prophecy and knowledge were codified (written down) as the New Testament, then prophecy and knowledge ceased. ie. New revelation of prophecy and knowledge ceased when the full N.T. revelation for this age was completed.

3. Christ's second coming is neither complete nor morally perfect. In the millenium, the sinner will die 100 years old (Isaiah 65:20). The millenium ends with satan's release from the pit and nations rebelling to attack Christ at Jerusalem. Not a perfect or complete situation at all.

4. Faith and Hope finish at the second coming (13:13).

Therefore, prophecy, knowledge and tongues, each not abiding during the church age, are said to end well before faith and hope ends (compare 1 Corinthians

13:8 with 1 Corinithians13:13).

Prophecy, knowledge and tongues end well before the second coming.

Prophecy and knowledge end by the coming of the perfect, completed Word of God in 96 AD.

Tongues ended by 70 AD, with Titus destroying Jerusalem and the judgment predicted coming on the jewish people for rejecting Christ's gospel. You don't warn people after the punishment has fallen.

5. The completed Bible is able to make believers complete by giving us all things that pertain to life and godliness. (II Peter 1:3,4).

We don't need new revelation.

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory (in heaven) and virtue (now on earth).

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises (in the perfect Bible) that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (changed from glory to glory)." II Peter 1:3,4.

This is obtained through:

1) the knowledge of Christ found in the Bible, and

2) by claiming the exceeding great and precious promises in the Bible.

Everything that we need today for life and Godliness to make us mature, completely equipped Christians is found in the Bible. Hence, the Bible is appropriately called the "complete Completer" for us today, the exact meaning of "teleion" in I Corinthians 13:10.

6. The completed Bible (all Scripture) can make the man of God "perfect" (Greek: "artios739" meaning "complete, sufficient, completely qualified; a synonym of "teleion"), throughly furnished unto all good works". II Timothy 3:16,17.

Here again, "all Scripture" making the man of God perfect, supports "perfect" in I Corinthians 13:10 as meaning the Bible, and not the second coming of Christ. Therefore, when the perfected, completed Bible comes, then the "in part" prophecy and knowledge shall be done away. This happened in 96AD when John finished writing Revelation 22:21.

Question 7: Why is tongues not mentioned in I Corinthians 13:9,10 as being done away with by the perfect?


Answer: It is because tongues had already ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem, being the judgment on the jewish people that tongues pointed to (I Corinthians 14:21,22). After 70 AD, there was no more purpose for tongues, so the tongues gift ceased forever by 70 AD. Tongues were not in existence to be done away with by "the perfect." Tongues had ceased 26 years earlier.

Those who think that the "perfect" is Christ's return and reject it as meaning the completed New Testament Scripture, do so because:

1. They have not studied every word, phrase, or verse of I Corinthians 13 in its context or

2. They are mentally influenced by someone with leaning towards Pentecostalism or

3. They are influenced by some interdenominational teacher whose decision about this scripture is non-committal so as to retain his popularity with both charismatic and non charismatic groups.

4. No scripture is ever produced in proof that the Holy Spirit did not mean the complete New Testament.

If knowledge ended at Christ's return, and if knowledge meant normal knowledge, then all Christians would be imbeciles in heaven.

Note: It is not good to say that God spoke to you and told you to do something, because if you are wrong, you lose your credibility. Instead, say "I felt led or burdened by the Lord to.....".

13:11. "When I was a child, I spake as a child (tongues)

I understand as a child (Knowledge, I thought as a child (prophecy is verbalised thoughts): but when I became a man, I put away childish things".

...continued...
 Quoting: Salt
furPete'sSake

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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
there is NO unknown prayer language between men and God. there is NO scriptural support for such unknown prayer language. there is NO scriptural support for a reason or need for an unknown prayer language.

tongues were human foreign KNOWN languages and dialects that were spoken commonly among very human peoples in real countries/cities/regions and were given to the disciples for the purpose of teaching the gospel of Christ and establishing churches all over the world.

period, end of sentence.
 Quoting: Salt


well I have to disagree, praying in the Spirit is an unknown language, one on One, the poster is right.
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Question 11: Why would God allow dedicated Christians to continue in error and deception to their hurt or spiritual detriment?

Answer: I Kings 13 reveals that even a dedicated and fearless prophet of God must suffer the consequences when he chooses deception over the clear revelation of God.

An unnamed man of God (v.1) was sent to Bethel "by the Word of the Lord" to prophesy against King Jeroboam and his idolatry (v.1-3). When the King tried to arrest the prophet, the King's hand withered (v.4,5). He begged the man of God to intercede to God to restore his hand. (v.6). The man of God showed mercy, prayed to God and Jeroboam's hand was restored. Then King Jeroboam offered him a reward (v.7) but the man of God refused (v3-10).

Why? He refused to stop for food because the clear revelation of God forbad him from receiving food or drink or retracing his steps (v.9). So far he had walked in complete obedience to the Word of God. He had passed the tests of:

1. Fear because he had boldly carried out his job of proclaiming God's Word to the King.

2. Compassion/Mercy. He had not allowed the King's threats to dry up his mercy. He willingly, lovingly prayed for Jeroboam's hand to be restored without revenge.

3. The test of faithfulness to God over human favour had been overcome, because he turned down the King's offer of hospitality and reward .

4. The test of deception, was the final test which he sadly failed.

Why? God had clearly told him not to receive hospitality, but he rejected the clear revelation of the Word of God for a new revelation, and it cost him his life.

There was an old prophet living nearby who heard about his faithful stand. The old prophet had lived in compromise at Bethel and invited the man of God home to dine with him (v.11-15).

The man of God refused saying that he was under strict orders from God not to eat, drink or retrace his steps (v.16.17). The old prophet replied in v.18

"I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him."

Why did he lie" We are not told.

a) Maybe he was envious at seeing a true prophet faithfully discharge his duties, when he had lived in compromise.

b) Maybe he resented the man of God and had a convicted conscience.

The old prophet claimed a new revelation from God. The man of God had to decide:

a) Would he accept at face value the new revelation, or

b) Would he continue to cling to God's previous revelation?

Sadly, the once fearless and faithful prophet succumbed to deception. And God allowed this to happen to a dedicated man of God. Why? Because in our pilgrimage on earth, there will always be the choice to follow the clear teaching of God's Word, or to replace it with the shallow promises, prophecies and deceptions of man.

The man of God retraced his steps back to the home of the old prophet and ate with him (v.19). Over the meal, the old prophet revealed that because the man of God had disobeyed the Word of God, he would die (v.20-22).

And that is exactly what happened (V.23-26) because a lion slew him in the way.

From this we see that if God allowed a dedicated prophet of God to choose between the clear teaching of the Lord and deception, surely the Lord will let us have this choice today. Many Christians suffer poor spiritual lives because they give up the Word of God, and embrace teachers who prophesy or give new revelations of their own spirit.

Question 12: But why doesn't God step in and chasten His children to woo them back to obedience? (Hebrews 12).

Answer: The Holy Spirit and the Word of God continually call the believer to faithfulness and obedience (Phil.2:12,13). Deception and impoverishment are the bitter fruits of turning away from the Word of God. Sometimes God will allow His children to remain deceived as a chastisement until they turn again in submission to the Word of God. Their salvation in Christ is secure through Christ's blood sacrifice. They may serve the Lord faithfully in other areas and even be used successfully by God, but they will miss god's best blessings on earth and they will lose rewards in heaven.

God will allow believers to choose whether to glorify Christ through submission and obeying scripture or to rebel. For dedicated servants of God who put aside the clear revelation of God and embrace new revelations, in this life they will be deceived and impoverished, and in the next life they will suffer loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ (II Corinthians 5-10).

Examples of charismatic deception are tongues, false healings, new revelations, words of knowledge spoken about other people, slaying in the "spirit", "Toronto" experience, etc. Consider briefly these two examples:

Slaying People in the Spirit is a Charismatic invention whereby hands are laid on a person's head and they lose consciousness, causing them to fall backwards onto the floor. THIS IS NOT IN THE BIBLE, so forget it. Laying hands on people is well known in the occult as a means of transferring demons. It is more likely demonically influenced and all the more reason why we should avoid this movement.

Surrender of Mind and Emotions to Group Pressure. On entering a Charismatic meeting, we meet many people dancing, throwing arms in the air, speaking in tongues, on an emotional high and appearing very happy. The average Christian realises that he is not always like this, nor is the church from which he has come (which is made to appear dead and lifeless in comparison). He and his church are made to feel inferior and below what God expects. He has always had thoughts that his Christian life hasn't always been as good as it ought to have been. He immediately concludes that these people have a one-shot-sure-fire-answer to spirituality when they ask him if he has been baptised in the Holy Spirit or spoken in tongues. If he is not careful, he will assume that these people are right, without studying the Bible or without praying the issue through. He may then agree to speak in tongues, which makes the Charismatics very happy. He feels much love, acceptance and unity as a result, all because of an experience that he has had. He then begins his Christian life by making his experience the authority on which he determines spiritual truth, and not the Bible. He then defends his decision logically by saying what wonderful love and unity these people have and "power" (false albeit). He asks, "how can they be wrong when they show such qualities?"
 Quoting: Salt
furPete'sSake

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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
there is NO unknown prayer language between men and God. there is NO scriptural support for such unknown prayer language. there is NO scriptural support for a reason or need for an unknown prayer language.

tongues were human foreign KNOWN languages and dialects that were spoken commonly among very human peoples in real countries/cities/regions and were given to the disciples for the purpose of teaching the gospel of Christ and establishing churches all over the world.

period, end of sentence.
 Quoting: Salt


well I have to disagree, praying in the Spirit is an unknown language, one on One, the poster is right.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


in fact, praying in the Spirit is a mystery
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
siren2 siren2 siren2

REASONS THAT TONGUES CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

1. Tongues were a sign of judgment against Jewish unbelief as a nation.

2. There are 3 major outbreaks of miracles in Scripture

3. Tongues belonged to the infant days of the church.

4. Tongues authenticated the apostles' message as from God.

5. Hebrews 6:5 shows that the only other age of miracles will be the Millenium described as "the powers of the age to come".

6. Hebrews 2:3,4 shows miracles (such as tongues) to be in the past tense, and not continuosly being experienced by the Hebrew Christians of 64 AD.

7. This is also seen in Acts 11:15, where Peter describes tongues at Cornelius household, not as a regular occurrence weekly in every church, but only somethiing that happened last time at Pentecost (Acts 2) "as on us at the beginning".

8. Mark 16:11-20 (especially v.17) shows that the signs that were to follow them that believe related to a brief period, not longer than that covered by the book of Acts, and described in that way in v.19,20.

[link to solascriptura-tt.org]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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there is NO unknown prayer language between men and God. there is NO scriptural support for such unknown prayer language. there is NO scriptural support for a reason or need for an unknown prayer language.

tongues were human foreign KNOWN languages and dialects that were spoken commonly among very human peoples in real countries/cities/regions and were given to the disciples for the purpose of teaching the gospel of Christ and establishing churches all over the world.

period, end of sentence.
 Quoting: Salt


well I have to disagree, praying in the Spirit is an unknown language, one on One, the poster is right.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


it is NOT an unknown language
it might be an unknown piece of information
about an unknown situation
but it is NEVER an unknown language
Anonymous Coward
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Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, BECAUSE EVERYONE HEARD THEM SPEAK IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE.

Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?"

"And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?"

"Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamis, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phyrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs----

"we hear them speaking in our own tongues THE WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD."




Summary statement later on by Peter to these Jews:


"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

"Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart.....
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, BECAUSE EVERYONE HEARD THEM SPEAK IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE.

Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?"

"And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?"

"Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamis, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phyrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs----

"we hear them speaking in our own tongues THE WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD."




Summary statement later on by Peter to these Jews:


"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

"Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart.....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21758347


clappa
furPete'sSake

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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
there is NO unknown prayer language between men and God. there is NO scriptural support for such unknown prayer language. there is NO scriptural support for a reason or need for an unknown prayer language.

tongues were human foreign KNOWN languages and dialects that were spoken commonly among very human peoples in real countries/cities/regions and were given to the disciples for the purpose of teaching the gospel of Christ and establishing churches all over the world.

period, end of sentence.
 Quoting: Salt


well I have to disagree, praying in the Spirit is an unknown language, one on One, the poster is right.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


it is NOT an unknown language
it might be an unknown piece of information
about an unknown situation
but it is NEVER an unknown language
 Quoting: Salt


but you have no way of knowing that. Your relationship with God may not be similar to some other one's.
Paul himself referred to tongues of angels, and there is no reason to think that Heaven is limited to the language of the earth.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: Counterfeit Christianity. Christian TV Evangelists who have joined Illuminati ranks Then & Now. Look close and pay attention.
there is NO unknown prayer language between men and God. there is NO scriptural support for such unknown prayer language. there is NO scriptural support for a reason or need for an unknown prayer language.

tongues were human foreign KNOWN languages and dialects that were spoken commonly among very human peoples in real countries/cities/regions and were given to the disciples for the purpose of teaching the gospel of Christ and establishing churches all over the world.

period, end of sentence.
 Quoting: Salt


well I have to disagree, praying in the Spirit is an unknown language, one on One, the poster is right.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


it is NOT an unknown language
it might be an unknown piece of information
about an unknown situation
but it is NEVER an unknown language
 Quoting: Salt


but you have no way of knowing that. Your relationship with God may not be similar to some other one's.
Paul himself referred to tongues of angels, and there is no reason to think that Heaven is limited to the language of the earth.
 Quoting: furPete'sSake


there might be an angelic tongue... that has nothing to do with God speaking to us. there will NEVER be a time when God has something to say to us and gives His divine message to us in jibberish mish mesh of syllables that require another person to try and divine the meaning.

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