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The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism

 
acacia
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06/03/2006 11:42 PM
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The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
The Da Vinci Code
Rick Joyner

As we are in a place of looking at some of the ways that church history effects us today and because there are so many questions about the book, The Da Vinci Code, which makes many assertions about church history, I think we need to address some of these questions before proceeding. (NOTE: This is basically covered in a recent Special Bulletin also posted on this website. Click here.)



The Da Vinci Code may be a well-written suspense thriller, but for historical accuracy it is hard to imagine one that has so twisted and distorted the facts. Even though it is a compelling read, it is taken too seriously by many, which is a statement about our times that we need to understand.



In this book the author very cleverly uses characters who are supposed to be esteemed experts and historians to make bold and authoritative declarations about the church, its history, and the Bible which are not only false, but are wild exaggerations or outright fabrications.
Is this acceptable just because it is a novel? Usually even novels that are based on historic events are held to a high standard in their representation of them. Why isn\'t this one? There is an obvious agenda in The Da Vinci Code that we need to understand. What is it? Why does it matter?



This may be one of the most demonically-inspired books of our times, with a profoundly evil agenda. It quickly becomes obvious that this book is a regurgitation of the ancient Gnostic doctrines, as well as the promotion and glorification of paganism and rituals associated with satanic worship, while at the same time seeking to undermine Christianity and faith in the Bible.



Gnosticism was a heresy that arose in the first few centuries A.D. when Christianity was spreading throughout the world, and it claimed to be Christian, but was not. It was rather a very basic departure from Christian truth, and promoted a salvation that was more of an elevation of the soul, through a secret knowledge rather than through the atonement of the cross. It also very basically attacked the deity of Jesus for obvious reasons.



Gnosticism was considered by many to have been the very deception that the Lord prophesied would seek to deceive even the elect (see Matthew 24:24). For the first few centuries of Christianity, this deception was effective in deceiving many new or unstable believers and even some of the leaders. It seemed especially prone to pick off those who on one extreme had a low self-esteem or on the opposite extreme were driven by selfish ambition.



It is important for us to understand why this same heresy is surfacing again today in The Da Vinci Code, and the spin that many are putting on the discovery of The Gospel of Judas. The Gospel of Judas that was discovered is probably authentic as far as being old, but it was not written by Judas as it is being promoted. We know that this \"gospel\" existed because it is referred to a number of times by the early church fathers, but always as a heresy, just like the other Gnostic gospels that painted a very different picture of Jesus than the biblical testimony. Just because something is old does not make its teaching true.



With a brief scan of the web, you will find a growing number of studies that have and are being done on The Da Vinci Code by serious historians and even art critics. It appears that they are all united in declaring the assertions in this book to be anywhere from inaccurate to outrageous. The book does not even get the architecture correct on the prominent buildings used in the novel, which could have easily been done with a little research through the Internet.

The mistakes made by this book\'s assertions are so overwhelming it almost seems like they were done purposely. There are too many to cover in much depth, but we will look at just a few of the basic ones that are especially used to attack Christianity and the Bible.



Because Gnosticism is obviously being resurrected in our time, we should keep in mind that there have always been two main assaults of Gnosticism:



To undermine Christianity by attacking its most basic truth—the deity of Jesus, His death, resurrection, and exaltation.
To attack the validity of the Scriptures.
The purpose of the first attack is obvious as it is the very basis of Christian faith. The second is more subtle, but its result will always cause a fall just as it did in the Garden. We see in Genesis that the very first lie of Satan was an attempt to get Eve to doubt the Word of God. This is why there is such a massive and continuous assault on the validity of the Scriptures.

If the \"scientific\" methods and standards used to determine authenticity of ancient writings are applied to the Scriptures, there are almost certainly no writings on the planet that pass these tests better than the Bible. However, science almost always uses a double standard when it comes to the Bible—the most flimsy evidence that attacks the Bible will be accepted, while the overwhelming evidence that confirms it is rejected. Why?



Though there are many intellectually, honest people in the scientific community, many of which have begun to speak out about such double standards in their profession, we can count on human courts to always try to condemn Jesus—even those who have faith in Him, just as the Sanhedrin did the night before He was crucified despite the overwhelming evidence they had seen with their own eyes. The truth of the gospel will never be accepted by anyone who is not willing to bow the knee and serve the truth.



Gnosticism seems to be an especially interesting parallel to the first forbidden fruit that brought all of the death into the world in the beginning. Satan seduced Adam and Eve into eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil by asserting that this knowledge would make them \"like God.\"

Gnosticism comes from a root word that means \"knowledge,\" and it actually purports to lead those who acquire the secret knowledge to become like God. This perverted doctrine did much damage to the early church, and it is obviously being resurrected to do the same in our time.



The Da Vinci Code seeks to make heroes out of secret societies and groups like the Templars, but you can be sure that secret societies, or groups that have secret rituals, will be used for evil. If we are abiding in the light, then anything we do should be able to be exposed to the light or openness.



Even so, there have been societies, or orders, in church history that have done much good for the faith, but they were never secret orders; they were always very open about what they did. One of these is The Order of the Mustard Seed that was founded by early Moravians and was instrumental in the conversions of John and Charles Wesley. We should beware of any secret society or order, and can assume that if something has to be kept secret it is in darkness.



This book also asserts through its characters, who are supposed to be esteemed and celebrated intellectuals and historians, that the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea (in the early fourth century) forced on the church the doctrines of the deity of Jesus, and his own desired canon of Scripture. The facts are that the canon of Scripture was not even on the agenda at this council, and the \"close vote\" on the deity of Jesus was 300 to 2. Does that sound like a \"close vote\" to you?



The characters in this book also state that this council threw out the \"80 some\" additional \"gospels\" that disputed His deity, keeping only the four that confirmed Jesus\' deity, which Dan Brown states (always through his characters) that neither Jesus nor His first disciples held to.

Again, the canon of Scripture was not even addressed at this council, and the \"80 some other gospels\" mentioned in this novel are another considerable exaggeration. There were others, but the actual number is closer to 20, so the exaggeration of this was only by a factor of 4 to 1, which seems pretty good by the standards of accuracy set throughout the rest of this book.



The canon of Scripture was established by the early church fathers long before Constantine. Then the Catholic canon was established centuries later and the Protestant canon over a thousand years after Constantine. The Catholic canon is basically the same as the Protestant canon with the exception of including some books that the Protestant Reformers rejected, not as being invalid writings, but as not being worthy of being considered canon Scripture.



The reasons given for epistles or \"gospels\" that were not canonized by either the Catholic or Protestant canon varied. Some were not canonized because they had been written later than the first century, and therefore were not considered eyewitness accounts. The standard of justice established in the Law demanded that the testimony of any witness had to be an eyewitness account, not hearsay. Some were not canonized because they were believed to be redundant to the four Gospels that were chosen. Others were not acceptable because they contained obvious Gnostic heresies.



Contrary to the assertions made in The Da Vinci Code, The New Testament actually has an abundance of \"scientific proof\" backing up its authenticity, its dating, and the fact that it has not been changed since the first century. The \"early church fathers\" are those who lived and wrote between 70 A.D. and 150 A.D., a fact that is well- established and is not disputed in its dating.

The early church fathers included some who were direct disciples of those who walked with the Lord Himself such as Peter, John, and the other apostles. From these writings, there are some 30,000 references to what is now considered the New Testament canon. From these well-established authentic writings, you can reconstruct the entire New Testament with the exception of just eleven verses!



These testify quite overwhelmingly that what we have in our New Testament today is the same that was actually penned by the authors. Also, contrary to the statements of the \"experts\" in this novel, the Gnostic heresies about Jesus not being divine were not corroborated by any of the writings of the early church fathers, but are rather disputed vehemently by all of them.



Even so, epistles that were not mentioned by the early church fathers were not necessarily considered spurious, fraudulent, or as containing false teaching. There were many writings that were considered good and edifying, but did not pass the high test required to be considered canon Scripture upon which the doctrine of the church was to be solely based. The many errors that later entered the church were not the result of rejecting epistles that should have been included in the canon, but were the result of neglecting the canon Scriptures.



In any case, the evidence that what we have in our New Testament today is the authentic writings of its authors is quite overwhelming, in contrast to the assertion of Dan Brown through his authoritative characters that the New Testament was repeatedly changed, modified, and is very different from the original. His assertion is not true, and there is abundant evidence that it is not true.



Other glaring flaws in The Da Vinci Code include almost every assertion about the Bible or early Christian practices including the fact that neither Constantine nor the Council of Nicea were responsible for changing the Christian meeting day to Sunday or establishing the celebration of Christmas. There is also not a single Christian writing included in the Dead Sea Scrolls, nor even a mention of Christ in them.



Brown\'s biggest distortion of the truth is the assertion that neither Jesus, Himself, nor the first Christians considered Him to be deity. The Gospel of John begins by asserting His divinity; He Himself not only refers to Himself as the Son of God, but states that He and the Father are one. As far as the Christians in the first century not believing in the deity of Christ as Dan Brown asserts through his characters, we have an abundance of testimony to the contrary. In the New Testament we have such clear statements as the first two chapters of Hebrews, the first chapter of the Gospel of John, and an abundance of other more brief testimonies such as Romans 1:1-4:



Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead (NKJV).



There have now been books written on the inaccuracies, misstatements, and exaggerations of The Da Vinci Code, and it does seem that every single point about Christianity in this book was not just distorted, but greatly distorted. Even other minor details that had nothing to do with faith were also amazingly inaccurate, such as the one that I\'m sure irritated every pilot—a B-58 Baron is not a turboprop, but a light twin piston powered plane, which no one could walk around in as asserted in this strange novel.



From a Christian perspective, his agenda of attacking Christianity, and promoting pagan worship and other rituals that are associated with satanic worship, is not in doubt. When one serves Satan, the \"father of lies,\" you will become like the one you worship. This book is full of lies.



Historical novels are generally held to a very high standard of conforming to the truth when it comes to actual historic events. Why isn\'t this one? It is expected that both the publisher and Hollywood which is about to release the movie, will defend the book with the protest that this is just a novel and Dan Brown is just taking some artistic liberties. However, this book crosses some very basic lines with its wild and flagrant distortions of history obviously intended to be against Christianity. Every Christian should be offended by this book and the movie.



I would not recommend any Christian being slimed by reading the book or seeing the movie. Just as these same Gnostic heresies deceived and led astray many weak and unstable Christians in the first few centuries, we can be sure that it will do so again if the true shepherds do not protect those they are entrusted to watch over by warning them of these things.



The good that has come from this novel is that many Christians have been provoked into checking out some of the attacks made on basic Christian truths in this novel, as well as historic facts, and have resolved to strengthen their own foundations. We are coming to the time of the ultimate conflict between good and evil, between light and darkness, between truth and error. Good will always win over evil, light will always cast out darkness, and truth will always prevail over every lie. This we can be sure of.



Da Vinci Code Promotes Paganism

Rick Joyner





The Da Vinci Code promotes paganism



We took a seeming diversion last week to briefly address The Da Vinci Code and the fallacies it asserted about the Bible and church history. In these times, we can expect an increasing onslaught of such attempts to sow into the minds and hearts of people, and at the very least, cause them to doubt the validity of the Scriptures. Of course, The Da Vinci Code goes far beyond that and actually promotes paganism, secret societies, and other forms of demonically inspired worship, but there is an obvious reason why the Scriptures must be attacked to do this. The Scriptures are the greatest threat to the powers of darkness. This also brings up another point about how many of the Reformers thought that certain biblical prophecies would be fulfilled, especially that of Revelation 11:4-12:



These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.



And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.



These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.



When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.



And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.



And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.



Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.



And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, \"Come up here.\" And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them (NKJV).



These two witnesses were considered by many Reformers (not all) to be the Old and New Testaments. In verse 6 it says, \"These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire,\" as they do as often as it is written in them.



During the Reformation, the Scriptures were the main target of the counter Reformation forces



During the period we call the Reformation, the Scriptures themselves were the main target of the counter Reformation forces, and then of the humanistic philosophers like Voltaire. It was the Scriptures that had awakened the Reformation; it was the printing of the Gutenberg Bible that fueled it; and it was primarily the Bible that stood as a witness against all of the evil ways of mankind—either from the perversion of the faith in religious institutions, or from the denial of faith by the humanists. This onslaught brought about a period when it seemed that the Bible may actually have been eradicated from influence in Europe, and then it shocked the world by standing up more powerfully than ever, which some considered its exaltation to heaven.



\"Did God say that?\"



Regardless of whether the text in Revelation 11 is about the Old and New Testaments or not, there has been, and we can expect there to always be, an onslaught of the devil to destroy men\'s faith in the Scriptures. If Jesus, who was the Word, would stand on \"it is written,\" how much more do we need to take our stand on what is written when confronted by the onslaught of evil in these times? We will be strong to the degree that we know and base our lives on the Word of God. The devil knows this and it is why he fears the written Word of God the most, and why he has an unrelenting attack on it which he began in the Garden when he asked Eve, \"Did God say that?\" (see Genesis 3:1)



Again, the very first tactic of the devil is to undermine faith in the Word of God. Therefore, it is crucial that we establish in our hearts and minds that it is the Word of God, and that we will live by it. Both the Old and New Testaments pass every test for authenticity of ancient works devised by science probably far more than all other ancient works, yet few scientists seldom admit to this. This is mostly because true objectivity and intellectual honesty is rarely found in science when it has anything to do with verifying the Scriptures, faith, creation, etc. They will usually accept the most flimsy evidence if it seems to undermine the validity of the Scriptures or faith, and they will reject a mountain of evidence as not being proof if it confirms them. This is to be expected.



The Bible is the only ancient book whose Author is still alive!



With true objectivity and true intellectual honesty, science overwhelmingly confirms both the Scriptures and creation. However, our faith should not be dependent on what science says about the Bible, but on what the Holy Spirit says about it. The Bible is the only ancient book whose Author is still alive! We can ask Him any questions, and He will teach us in the most powerful and substantial way that anyone can be taught—by the anointing.



When we read the Scriptures, we should be doing much more than just trying to learn the text—we should be learning about Him from Him. This is the great lesson from the greatest sermon ever preached on the earth—the Lord\'s teaching of the two men on the road to Emmaus.



\"He appeared to them in a different form\"



In this story, Christ is preaching Christ from the beginning of the Scriptures until the end. How could any sermon ever surpass that? However, they still could not recognize Him until they saw Him break the bread. I think that, like these two, we most often miss the Lord when He tries to draw near to us because, as it states in Mark, \"He appeared to them in a different form\" (see Mark 16:12). If they had known Him after the Spirit instead of just appearances, they would have recognized Him right away, which is why He did this. We, too, often can only recognize Him if He comes in a way or form that we are used to. He must deliver us from this if we are to truly know Him after the Spirit.



What will open our eyes to recognize Him is when we see Him break our bread. It is not just hearing the words of the Lord that is important, but hearing the Word Himself. He may speak to us through familiar people such as our pastor, teacher, or authors, but He may also choose to speak to us through unfamiliar sources. He Himself wants to be our Teacher. He will often use the ministries of those He appointed in His church as teachers, pastors, apostles, etc., but it should be His voice that we seek to hear. When He is teaching us, the letter comes to life.



There is an answer to everything we are going through in the Bible.



With the onslaught that will always come against the Scriptures, we should also increase our resolve to read them, know them, and stand on them. In whatever way we are being attacked by the devil, we should have a ready answer from the Word to stand on just as the Word Himself did. There is an answer to everything we are going through in the Bible.



The more you read the Scriptures, the more you will also know for sure that no human agency could have ever written them. As Napoleon is said to have remarked after reading the Gospel of John, \"If Jesus is not the Son of God, then the one who wrote this Gospel is! I know men, and no man could have written anything like this!\"



Even so, Spurgeon once said that he could find ten men who would die for the Bible for every one who would read it. We should appreciate those who defend the Bible, but that is not enough. If we really believe that the Bible is the Word of God, how can we neglect it? If you knew that the mother lode was buried in your backyard, you would be foolish not to quit work, rent a backhoe, and dig! We have something much more valuable than the mother lode gathering dust on our bookshelves! Are we not the greatest of fools if we are neglecting such a treasure?



Isaiah 59 seems quite an accurate representation of our time, but we are assured in verses 18-19:



According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, fury to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; the coastlands He will fully repay.



So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and His glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him (NKJV).



Just as there is an onslaught of evil, multitudes are turning to righteousness. Just as there is a massive assault on the validity of the Bible, even more are finding it to be the true Word of God. Just as many are becoming increasingly enraged at the unrelenting message of the Bible, many more are loving its truth more deeply. When the enemy comes in like a flood, we should never get discouraged, but rejoice and begin to look for the standard that the Lord is raising up. His truth will certainly prevail.
Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2006 11:45 PM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
book
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/03/2006 11:47 PM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
Because Gnosticism is obviously being resurrected in our time, we should keep in mind that there have always been two main assaults of Gnosticism:



To undermine Christianity by attacking its most basic truth—the deity of Jesus, His death, resurrection, and exaltation.

To attack the validity of the Scriptures.

The purpose of the first attack is obvious as it is the very basis of Christian faith. The second is more subtle, but its result will always cause a fall just as it did in the Garden. We see in Genesis that the very first lie of Satan was an attempt to get Eve to doubt the Word of God. This is why there is such a massive and continuous assault on the validity of the Scriptures.

If the \"scientific\" methods and standards used to determine authenticity of ancient writings are applied to the Scriptures, there are almost certainly no writings on the planet that pass these tests better than the Bible. However, science almost always uses a double standard when it comes to the Bible—the most flimsy evidence that attacks the Bible will be accepted, while the overwhelming evidence that confirms it is rejected.

Why?
Anonymous Coward
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06/04/2006 12:30 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
yada yada about gnosticism... and the OP calls himself acacia... enough said. You are found out.

Bzzzzzt!
Anonymous Coward
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06/04/2006 12:48 AM
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Great thread acacia.
Love and light 185!
AZ
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06/04/2006 12:54 AM
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I am just curious about why people have a problem with this idea. Just looking for mature converstation about this.

What bothers people about this idea?
HeidiLore

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06/04/2006 12:55 AM
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What bothers people concerning this? I guess because it makes one THINK. That's the only solution I can come to. If they're comfortable with their faith, they shouldn't be belittling other ideas of faith.
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I believe I can see the future, 'cause I repeat the same routine. I think I used to have a purpose, but then again, it might have been a dream
AZ
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06/04/2006 01:07 AM
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Yes, I agree. One of the fruits...

Thanks for your input.
Anonymous Coward
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06/04/2006 01:11 AM
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Nonsense. If it's not your way of dogma than it is evil and of the devil. Sorry, but geniune seekers aren't going to conform to a fascist relgion that imposes nothing more than pure mind control.
Anonymous Coward
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06/04/2006 02:55 AM
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Gnosticism is far beyond the comprehension of the OP based on what I read here. The entire article is bullshit. Look up the Essenes - their beliefs are the same things that Christ said (over and over) to his followers. For Gnostics the story is always deeper than the superficial words contained in it. Gnosticism is comprehensive and expansive and finds some degrees of truth in all spiritual practice. What you see in the church is LITERALISM that bastard twin of MATERIALISM. It was that very thing that Christ excoriated the Pharisees for. Literalism is intolerant, divisive and restricting. It is alse the DOGMA of the church over the ages. It is why the church feared people with deep beliefs, just as it feared its own saints and sometimes executed the followers of those saints - see St. Francis of Assissi. The church was so intolerant of spiritual people (as opposed to mere slaves) that it fostered the inquisition, massacres and pogroms against gnostics. It is because the church believes in literalism (the bahble is the word of god, exactly as god wants it) which is none other than materialism in expression.

You will note that gnostics never fear or erect disputes with literalists. The problem originates as it always has with the literal materialists who parrot pious phrases without a clue about what they really mean. The problem is with the literalists and their divisive exclusionary materialistic philosophy. The best parts of the church was always gnostic and because of persecution, it had to stay hidden because it was not appropriate for the riff-raff of the day, just as it is not today.

This said, the Da Vinci code is full of shit. The whole business of blood lines is ultra materialism. Christ was who he was because of his royal genes... Yeah! Puhleeze...
AZ
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06/04/2006 03:04 AM
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That was a very good post 89541. I am wondering however if the idea of the Da Vinci Code could be fulfilled in a non-carnal Spiritual nature? So would you think it could be that Jesus has a wife and childern in a literal sense pertaining to the Spiritual nature, or, behind the vail so to speak? So then, in "heaven", could this be true?

That really was a good post...
Anonymous Coward
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06/04/2006 03:13 AM
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Jesus' children are you and me

It is a total abomination to say Jesus came to earth to start a royal blood line to rule.

He came to father spiritual children, the ones who saw Him as their spiritual father. Jesus wasn't carnal in the least.

I didn't read the book nor see the movie, all of this stuff has been circulating around for some time.

Total bsflag

It's being done by the carnal mind in hopes that Jesus is one of them . . .
meaning this . . . they don't want to repent and turn away from the flesh, therefore they try and remake Jesus in their own carnal image.

They hope that when He comes back He will come to praise their carnal works, being such a hip carnal man himself . . . NOT.

Utterly transparent and passe.
RAGZ

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06/04/2006 03:13 AM
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Rick Joyner
what...
time is a conspiracy, devouring my life with sharp like incisors...
AZ
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06/04/2006 03:32 AM
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He came to father spiritual children, the ones who saw Him as their spiritual father. Jesus wasn't carnal in the least.

-------------

How do you define carnal? If it is pertaining to the 3D then in that context He would have been carnal because He had a 3D body. He also ate and drank material food so does that mean He was carnal? Carnality as I undertand it is not based on the 3D realm itself but it is a mentality of the mind and heart. As was posted above carnality is when we place or focus our thoughts on the 3D realm as holding in and of itself the higher admiration, thus, materializm.

Was Jesus carnal because He did bodily things? What makes the act of sex bodily more or less carnal than the act of eating or drinking bodily, for example?

What defines carnality then?
AZ
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06/04/2006 03:43 AM
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It is a total abomination to say Jesus came to earth to start a royal blood line to rule.

-------

I also wanted to add that I dont think the book or movie suggest that Jesus came here to start a royal blood line. The above statement seems to suggest this was His purpose for coming here and that was not my impression of the book or movie. Perhaps this one statement being misunderstood is why you might deem the idea carnal.
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06/04/2006 03:46 AM
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AZ . . . that's a deep subject and it's late for me . . . but the truth is that Jesus did not identify with the material consciousness at all, not one bit because He knew it was all an illusion.

He came to do His Father's will and not His own. Procreation is not the will of God, Salvation from procreation is. Procreation is idolatry, the continued attempt for Spirit to project itself into flesh.

Jesus would have had not the slightest interest in procreation, not even the tiniest tug of attraction. There have been other examples of this such as Ramana Maharshi and Anandamayi Ma of India. Was Jesus less then them in His alignment with God?

This is an incomplete answer I know but I'm tired.

aloha
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06/04/2006 03:56 AM
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It's difficult for some to understand why others have any problem with the DaVinci thesis.

It is because of this . . .

If I had any doubt that Jesus wasn't perfectly free of any attraction to procreation I would drop him like a hot potatoe and go elsewhere.

I don't want a humanistic Jesus and if Jesus did produce children with Mary Magadalen then He was an idiot.

Truth is not about DNA or genetics, the Kingdom of Heaven is not a place of reproduction. Jesus represented the Kingdom of Heaven to us.

Those joker gurus who pretend to be higher than Jesus who spend most of the energy sleeping with their devotees, they are pathetic.

I want someone who represents the Kingdom the way it really is which is totally transcendant of what we call existence and the activity of existence which we call 'the flesh'.
AZ
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06/04/2006 03:59 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
Thanks for your response and perhaps we can pick this up later. You are very polite.

Have a good night sleep.
AZ
User ID: 101944
United States
06/04/2006 04:12 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
I understand you are tired so I will leave this as a note that perhaps we can take up again tomorrow. The act of something does not mandate the nature behind it. For example, He did many things in the 3D even to the point of dying but that dying was not for the sake of the flesh itself but for a higher purpose. So its not the act of things themselves but the puropse behind it that manifests heavenly things.

On another note, there are still families in heaven and childeren and parents as there is here. Perhaps what you are really disputing is not the idea of procreation itself but the method of procreation.

I do agree with you by-the-way, in that, I also dont feel that it is according to the will of the flesh, physical procreation, but the will of God, spiritual procreation. However, one does not necessaraly negate the other either. But I do understand what you are saying and in that context I do agree. But again that does not mean that the idea of Jesus having a wife and childern is not of God. In my prior post I was more illustrating this in the non-physical 3D model, or, I was speaking towards marriage and childeren in the spiritual realm but spiritualy literal.

Thanks !
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 101787
United Kingdom
06/04/2006 04:15 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
Truth is not about DNA or genetics, the Kingdom of Heaven is not a place of reproduction. Jesus represented the Kingdom of Heaven to us.


No - actualy he represented, 'divinity made flesh' as a model for us to follow.
That is why he was 'nailed to the cross' (of the material world)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 98583
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06/04/2006 04:37 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
Why are Evangelicals scared of the Davinci Code? Must be something to it.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 101502
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06/04/2006 04:44 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
>>That is why he was 'nailed to the cross' (of the material world)>>

God allowed Him to be nailed to the cross so that we could all see what the true purpose of the flesh is . . .

to kill God

that proved it right there
and that is why we need to foresake the flesh, it is sinful from the very beginning, a liar and a murderer

Jesus proved it
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 101787
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06/04/2006 04:50 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
and that is why we need to foresake the flesh, it is sinful from the very beginning, a liar and a murderer


I'm sorry but - these are the words of a religious loonie.

PS if the davinci code was a gross distortion - how many of the five million people tortured and burned alive at the stake for heresy in europe, were there?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 94722
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06/04/2006 05:06 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
"Procreation is not the will of God, Salvation from procreation is."




That God sure is a tricky fellow. Every living thing he made procreates, but you say it isn't his will for them to do that. Really, it seems like it is. Or are you saying that God is pro-abortion?
AZ
User ID: 101944
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06/04/2006 05:13 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
Wasnt it a "commandment" to go forth and mulitiply?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 101502
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06/04/2006 05:16 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
God the Father didn't make this universe, when are you going to start reading the Bible?

God the Son made it. Did God make death which is the lot of all flesh? If so then why did God sent Jesus to save us from death if God made it.

Is God crazy to save us from what He made? God didn't make the flesh.
Anonymous Coward
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06/04/2006 05:19 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
Rick Joyner? Isn't he the dude that attended the World Economic Forum in Davos?? Anyone that kisses the ass of the globalists, kisses the ass of satan. A lot of these Evangelicals better check themself.
AZ
User ID: 101944
United States
06/04/2006 05:36 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
You make a good point, however, lets look at what you said about the material world or materializm. If God is not carnal or materialistic why would He care or have His focus on the material. Wouldnt saving the flesh for the sake of the flesh make Him material minded or carnal?

Let me present it this way. What is the flesh? What is carnality?

Is it the 3D body in and of itself or is it a mindset or condition of the mind or heart? What if carnality is a condition of hatered that only then manifests in the physcial material realm? Law of Consistency. So then once the mind and heart are restored then the body manifests that nature also. Here is a Biblical example. After Jesus was Resurrected He appeard in the flesh. Correct? And it is also stated Biblicly that after He assended He then appeard and walked amoung them for 40 days. So was His flesh carnal? Was Jesus carnal because He had/has flesh? Or, is it the state of that flesh that is the issue?
AZ
User ID: 101944
United States
06/04/2006 05:43 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
God the Father didn't make this universe, when are you going to start reading the Bible?

God the Son made it. Did God make death which is the lot of all flesh? If so then why did God sent Jesus to save us from death if God made it.

Is God crazy to save us from what He made? God didn't make the flesh.

------------

I also would like to make an abservation here. You said that Jesus is God the Son and made the universe. So then what you are saying is God the Son made death? Correct? Then you made the statement that God would be crazy to save us from what He made. Yet, according to your statement that is exactly what He (Jesus) did being God the son.

Am I understanding this correctly?
gooderboy

User ID: 70143
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06/04/2006 08:29 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
"There is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."
(Jesus Christ, Romans 14:14)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 91387
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06/04/2006 08:34 AM
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Re: The Da Vinci Code & Gnosticism
bible is big load of old cobblers!!
(nice for bullshit)

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