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The Lake of Fire

 
LunaRabbit
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02/17/2014 01:16 AM
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The Lake of Fire
This is a respectful rebuttal to the Second Death being literal death and why I believe the Lake of Fire is instead meant for purification.


I started this essay a month ago for non believers and now have been asked to speak on my opinions of the Lake of Fire. I'm adding that study at the end but much of the first part is needed to get a grasp on the later subjects.

First part can be read here. The first three posts are the brunt of it.
Thread: The 7 Ages of God's Plan: The Salvation of All


PART 2: PURIFICATION IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

The word "torture" used in scripture when referenced to the Lake of Fire is the Greek word Basanizo, which means to toss, vex, and yes, sometimes torture. However this same word is used in reference to the tossing waves beneath the boat while Jesus walked on water (Mark 6:48). Basanos is from the same root word. Basanos means to test, and was also known as a black touchstone which was used in metal working. It was a Lydian stone used in rubbing gold to test it's purity. In Strong's Greek Lexicon under this word's definition, it says sickness was once equated to torture. If we take all of these definitions and past scriptural proof, we can deduct that this “sickness” is sin. The creature in the lake will metaphorically be “rubbed by the touchstone” (tormented, vexed, tossed) until the sin nature is destroyed and the creature is made pure.

In other places where the English word “torment” occurs, we see other translation errors. In Matthew 25:46 where unbelievers go away into “eternal torments”, the Greek word used is Kolasis. Kolasis means temporary punishment, often in reference to horticulture: pruning, cutting away, etc. We should all know in gardening if the weed is left or the plant isn't pruned, the garden becomes sick. Pruning cuts away all that is ugly and unhealthy. This mirrors the Basano stone in gold testing. The impurities/weeds must be burnt/cut away, and the gold/garden is purified.


So we can see from this original word that again, the Lake of Fire is not literal hot fire or torture for no reason. It is a stirring up; a testing and purification in God's holy presence.

***

Jesus said Israel would be born again. What did he mean by this? He meant dying to the flesh and being born of spirit (believing the truth). When God called Paul he switched his plan to gentiles and grace. Instead of being born all at once as a nation as Israel will experience, we gentile Body of Christ members are “born” into the spirit here one at a time. When this happens we are a new creation in Christ. In God's eyes we have died with Christ.

So, we all die two deaths. Everone will die physically, and then will die to sin, it just depends on when it will happen in God's plan for you.

Believers will die to sin in God's eyes when they are born in the Spirit (become part of the Body of Christ), and then they will die physically. Since we have already “died” twice, we are promised we will not experience the Lake of Fire, also called the Second Death.

Unbelievers will die physically in their sins not having been born of Spirit, and will then die to their sinful nature in the Lake of Fire.

I saw someone write this which seemed pretty profound to me:
We are ALL ...IN... Him, as noted by PAUL (Acts 17:28)
HE ...IS... a CONSUMING FIRE... (Heb 12:29)
Therefore, we (believers) are all ...IN... the LAKE of FIRE ...NOW!

***

I believe the Lake of Fire to be before the throne of God, and to be the actual presence of God. Revelation 4:6 and 15:2 mention a sea of glass mingled with fire which sits before the throne. The Lamb, his angels, and those who overcame the beast stand before it. Revelation 14:10 says the Lake of Fire is watched over by the Lamb and his angels while those who took the mark are “tormented” with burning sulfer (I'll touch more on this).

I believe the early earthly Temple reflected the Lake of Fire and it's purification. In 1 Kings the Temple is outlined in painstaking detail. There was a giant bath called the bronze laver, or “molten sea”. Before entering the holy place, the priests ceremoniously washed their feet and hands to purify themselves before God. The water represented molten gold. Pure molten gold looks like glass mixed with fire, since gold catches fire in this form.

"It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward" (2 Chron. 4:4). This is very interesting. The ox is always the type in Scripture of the patient laborer for God (1 Cor. 9:9, 10); twelve is the number of Israel's tribes. In all probability, there were pipes running downward through the mouths of the oxen whereby the water, when needed, flowed forth. Here, then, we have the word of the Lord flowing through Israel in the coming day for the blessing of all the nations, for the oxen looked towards every quarter under heaven. Under the powerful impulse of the latter-day outpouring of the Spirit, from their inward parts will flow "rivers of living water."

We cannot close without a brief reference to Rev. 4:6. Here we see the whole company of the heavenly saints, under the symbol of twenty-four elders, at home in glory with the Lord. They are shown to us, not clad in armor, with sword in hand, as in Eph. 6, but as wearing the priestly ephod, each one crowned and enthroned. Wilderness dangers and needs are past for ever. "Before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal." The allusion to the molten sea in the earthly sanctuary is too obvious to be mistaken. But it is not a sea of water, as there, but of glass, a silent yet eloquent witness to the fixed and unalterable purity of the eternal abode of the glorified. On earth the water (of the Word) is often needed because of the defilements picked up by the way, and which come in between our souls and God; in the blissful scene to which we are going defilement will never be possible. The water gives place, in consequence, to the sparkling crystal.


[link to www.stempublishing.com]


Once we begin to understand the use of the Lake as purification we can delve deeper into what elements are used within the Lake. Sulfur and brimstone are said to burn here. Let's examine these:

There are some who argue that the fire must be a literal place of burning and torture, because it is often associated with "brimstone." Revelation 21:8 says,
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Does the "brimstone" prove that this is a literal fire that tortures men? Actually, the very opposite is true. Brimstone is sulphur, as any concordance will show. The original Greek word for sulphur, or "brimstone," is theion. Its root is theo, which is the same word usually translated "God." (Note: Theology is the study of God.)

Sulphur, or theion, was considered to be sacred to the ancient Greeks. It was used to consecrate for divine service, to PURIFY, and to cleanse. They used it in religious rites to purify their temples. They would even rub it on their bodies to signify consecration to God. In its verb form the word theou means "to hallow, make divine, or to dedicate to God."


[link to www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net]
Origen (one of the most prolific Christians of the 1st/2nd century) wrote:

"The Sacred Scripture does, indeed, call our God "a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29), and says that "rivers of fire go before His face: (Dan. 7:10), and that "He shall come as a refiner's fire and purify the people" (Mal. 3:2,3). As therefore, God is a consuming fire, what is it that is to be consumed by Him? We say it is wickedness, and whatever proceeds from it, such as is figuratively called "wood, hay, and stubble" (1 Cor. 3:12-15) which denote the evil works of man. Our God is a consuming fire in this sense; and He shall come as a refiner's fire to purify rational nature from the alloy of wickedness and other impure matter which has adulterated the intellectual gold and silver; consuming whatever evil is admixed in all the soul."


Gregory of Nazianzus (4th century) wrote:

"These (apostates), if they will, may go our way, which indeed is Christ's; but if not, let them go their own way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only very painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice." (Orat. XXXIX, 19)
Thus, he calls the lake of fire a "baptism" whose purpose is to "consume all vanity and vice." He does say it is "very painful," but then, I often find that laver baptism very painful myself. Yet I submit to it, because I know it is God's method of purification.
Gregory of Nyassa (4th Century)

"They who live in the flesh ought, by virtuous conversation, to free themselves from fleshly lusts, lest after death, they should again need another death to cleanse away the remains of fleshly vice that cling to them."

"When all the alloy of evil that has been mixed up in the things that are, having been separated by the refining action of the cleansing fire, everything that was created by God shall have become such as it was at the beginning, when as yet it had not admitted evil . . . this is the end of our hope, that nothing shall be left contrary to the good, but that the Divine Life, penetrating all things shall absolutely destroy Death from among the things that are; sin having been destroyed before him, by means of which, as has been said death held his dominion over men."
[link to www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net]
This same principle is even written about in secular literature of the time, ie Homer's “Odyssey”/”Iliad”.

Odysseus speaks:
"Let me have the fire. The first thing is to purify this place."

With no more chat Eurykleia obeyed
and fetched out fire and brimstone. Cleansing fumes
he sent through court and hall and storage chamber.
Then the old woman hurried off again
to the women's quarters to announce her news,
and all the servants came now, bearing torches
in twilight, crowding to embrace Odysseus,
and taking his hands to kiss, his head and shoulders,
while he stood there, nodding to every one,
and overcome by longing and by tears.

“Bring me brimstone and a brazier- medicinal fumes to cleanse my hall.”

“With no more chat Eurykleia obeyed and fetched out fire and brimstone. Cleansing fumes he sent through court and hall and storage chamber.”



This is what early Greeks believed about fire, and much of the New Testament was written for Roman/Greek audiences. Fire, sulfur, and brimstone were symbols of purification!












PART 3: IDIOMS AND FIGURATIVE VS LITERAL


Let’s look at five general possibilities for the interpretation of this lake of fire and second death.

1. The teaching comprising the largest number of adherents (Christian Fundamentalists) state that the lake of fire is indeed literal fire, but that the second death part is figurative or symbolic seeing that its victims never actually become literally dead or even unconscious, but rather they interpret this second death as separation from God. 

Their explanation of their belief, however, contradicts the idea that the lake of fire is literal. They teach that the lake of fire is literal fire that burns like real fire, but they then contradict the literalness of this fire by teaching that it doesn’t actually burn up anything: It just causes INSANE PAIN. But really, can a fire that doesn’t actually burn up physical, material things, be called a literal fire? And although I’ve heard many state that this metaphor is literal, this group certainly denies the literalness of the second death because they don’t believe they ever die and lose consciousness. 

It is a physiological impossibility for a literal fire to cause pain on the nervous system of a person and yet never actually kill them and burn them up if the fire is applied eternally. Furthermore, real fire does not cause symbolic or figurative death--real fire causes real death.


2. Others (as the Jehovah's Witnesses) teach that both the lake of fire and the the second death are symbolic and not literal. They believe that this metaphor is a "word picture" that does not represent a place or condition of literal torment in literal fire. However, they believe that it does picture or represent the total annihilation of all those who are judged and are not granted salvation. 

This teaching is certainly billions of times more merciful than the Christian fundamentalist theory, however, it too is unscriptural as we shall see. Not to mention the fact that it would prove our heavenly Father either unable or unwilling to save most of His own children. 

What kind of an eternal example would that be for those who are saved? Does God really teach us to "train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" (Prov. 22:6), but that God Himself is incapable of training His children in the way that they should go and that most of them WILL DEPART FROM IT? 

Does God really teach us to "LOVE OUR ENEMIES" while God Himself "HATES OUR LOVED ONES" by destroying most of them for all eternity? This teaching is also blasphemous.


3. Still others teach that the "lake of fire" is figurative, but that the "fire" part of the symbolic phrase "lake of fire" is literal fire which will burn up its victims. So they interpret this as a symbolic "lake of fire" which is made up of a literal lake and literal fire. And that the second death is literal death so that its victims will be killed by this literal fire in a literal lake, which then becomes a symbolic "lake OF fire." 

However, this group has a unique twist to their teaching. They believe that when the victims are thrown into the lake of fire, they have already gone through the white throne judgment and have turned to God, are now righteous, have accepted Christ as their Lord, but they must die a second time anyway. Why? I don’t know!! I am at a loss as to how Rev. 21:8 would fit into this theory, 

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." 

They don’t sound too converted to me at this point in time when they enter the lake of fire. 



This group then believes that at the consummation of the ages (just as they have died a second time), they will be resurrected a second time, but this time to immortality and life with God in His Family. Though maybe not quite as blasphemous, this teaching is still unscriptural and foolish.


4. I know of no group who teaches that the lake of fire is figurative, but that the second death is literal. Such a doctrine would be akin to literally drowning in symbolic water.


5. And so that leaves one more combination, and that is that the lake of fire is figurative or symbolic and that the second death is also figurative or symbolic. I am one of a very tiny group who is of this latter persuasion. 

It is the only way that these Scriptures on the lake of fire and the second death will harmonize and not contradict the rest of God’s Word. Furthermore, God plainly tells us in chapter one, verse one, that an angel "signified" this whole "Revelation of Jesus Christ" contained in this book. He "SYMBOLIZED" it, for that is what "signifies" means--to make known by signs, and signs are symbols. Therefore it can’t be literal.


[link to bible-truths.com] by L. Ray Smith


The antichrist (leader of political system) as well as the false prophet (leader of spiritual system) will be thrown into the lake to be tormented. Death and Hades are also thrown in and are said to be destroyed here. But wait, how are both living creatures as well as intangible things thrown into the same place and yet not go through the same process? Why are the Beasts not destroyed here if it is to be taken as literal annihilation? Death cannot be destroyed the same way a living creature is destroyed. This is why I believe the Lake is death is for intangible evil, not the vessel in which it resides.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames.


This is where death, sin, human pride, greed, violence, hatred, as well as human political systems/governance will be burnt up, leaving the renewed vessel (creature) alive and able to learn righteousness without the veil of these things to hinder it. They will then learn from the Lamb who stands before the throne and they will become all in all with God through this process.


In this regards, can all of Revelation then be taken literally? Is there a literal dragon who flies down attempting to destroy a manchild? Is there a literal woman who flees to the wilderness? Is there a literal monster with seven heads who comes out of the sea? Is there a literal woman riding this beast drinking a goblet of blood? No to all of these. These are symbolic representations of literal things. Just as the Second Death is a symbolic representation/name for a literal thing that will happen. It's the death of all things wrong with the current creation. A purge. God is a refining fire. Remember the quote by John the Baptist above. He came to baptize you with water but there is one greater than he (Jesus) that comes to baptize with fire.

The Bible is full of idioms that, if taken literally, will confuse even the wisest of men. The popularly used “Faith can move mountains” verse is one example. To a Hebrew, “mountains” is obviously understood as “kingdoms”, but in English speaking countries this verse has been confused with literally making huge mountains move if you believe enough. That literally anything is possible (where this is technically true if God wills it, it isn't what the verse was implying).

Think of this as well: If someone were to read a book or watch a television show from our era and took everything literally they would be completely baffled. If I write “I'm dying!” when talking about my excitement over an upcoming concert, a future reader might be stumped by why this concert would cause my demise.

The same could be said about the woman in the Song of Solomon. She says her bowels move, while she lays in bed, at the thought of her approaching lover. Are we to take this literally from our cultural point of view and time period? Did she poop the bed? Or was it an idiom for her tummy fluttering with excitement?

Likewise, burning and fire and often used in scripture when mentioning God or holiness. Only rarely was it used in annihilation as punishment, and only ever was this mentioned on earth.

When Moses first heard from God it was through a burning bush. The fire here didn't burn the literal bush. Instead it was holy fire. Moses was told to remove his sandals because it had made the ground there sacred and holy.

As mentioned above, Isaiah's lips were touched by a holy burning coal. It didn't sear him, but instead purified him of his sins.

In the book of Malachi many times fire is said to be a cleansing element that people will pass through.

In the Old Testament all metal instruments had to “pass through fire” to be cleansed. Paul referred back to this in 2 Tim 2:20-21 when he spoke of purging and purifying oneself in order to be a utensil for honor.

The bondage of Israel in Egypt was said to have been a “furnace of fire”. The suffering there was for their benefit.
Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver, I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.




Tossing, vexing, purging, purifying, and learning righteousness. This is what I believe our God will use the Lake of Fire for. And I believe the suffering we in the Body of Christ are experiencing is our own trial through fire right now. It's like metal on an anvil. Fire, hammer, fold, fire, hammer, fold, again and again. This process is brutal and painful, but makes for a strong and pure instrument.
Please make me wise and teach me the difference between right and wrong.
LunaRabbit (OP)

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02/17/2014 09:39 AM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
Bump for the morning crowd.
Please make me wise and teach me the difference between right and wrong.
LunaRabbit (OP)

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02/17/2014 11:34 AM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
No comments? :) Questions? I think this is pretty good evidence to squash eternal torment or annihilation.
Please make me wise and teach me the difference between right and wrong.
Anonymous Coward
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Well it's not like there isn't time to deal with it. I mean it's really a shame that they had to move forward with this plan. I expect the fallout to be significant.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Lake of Fire
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11

Hardly purification.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Lake of Fire
Yeah, pretty much.
LunaRabbit (OP)

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02/17/2014 11:54 AM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11

Hardly purification.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


I don't think you read the OP :p This was covered.

Have a good one.
Please make me wise and teach me the difference between right and wrong.
Anonymous Coward
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And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11

Hardly purification.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


I don't think you read the OP :p This was covered.

Have a good one.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


How about a summary?
Anonymous Coward
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And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11

Hardly purification.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


I don't think you read the OP :p This was covered.

Have a good one.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


How about a summary?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


You don't get to decide what the words mean.
Anonymous Coward
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Matthew 7:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2
LunaRabbit (OP)

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Re: The Lake of Fire
The original words for sulfur and brimstone denoted purification. The ancient Greeks and Hebrews (whom Revelation was written to/for) knew fire and sulfur/brimstone were used in this manner. It was used in temples for dedicating things to God/making holy. The Greek word for sulfur (theion) also comes from the root word for God: theo.

The words for torment and eternal are the words basanizo/basano, kolasis, and aionious. These all mean temporary periods of punishment/chastisement and pruning. A time period has a distinct beginning and end. There is no eternity in the Lake.
Please make me wise and teach me the difference between right and wrong.
LunaRabbit (OP)

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Re: The Lake of Fire
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11

Hardly purification.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


I don't think you read the OP :p This was covered.

Have a good one.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


How about a summary?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


You don't get to decide what the words mean.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


I don't. I've used concordances and lexicons. It's what the original languages mean. Don't be a troll please.
Please make me wise and teach me the difference between right and wrong.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2014 12:02 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
The original words for sulfur and brimstone denoted purification. The ancient Greeks and Hebrews (whom Revelation was written to/for) knew fire and sulfur/brimstone were used in this manner. It was used in temples for dedicating things to God/making holy. The Greek word for sulfur (theion) also comes from the root word for God: theo.

The words for torment and eternal are the words basanizo/basano, kolasis, and aionious. These all mean temporary periods of punishment/chastisement and pruning. A time period has a distinct beginning and end. There is no eternity in the Lake.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


But God has always used fire and brimstone on his enemies. Forget about Sodom and Gomorrah?

And if they mean temporary times, then that also applies to the people in heaven. Is that what you are claiming since the same words are used. Are you denying eternal life?
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...


I don't think you read the OP :p This was covered.

Have a good one.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


How about a summary?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


You don't get to decide what the words mean.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


I don't. I've used concordances and lexicons. It's what the original languages mean. Don't be a troll please.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


"The word "torture" used in scripture when referenced to the Lake of Fire is the Greek word Basanizo, which means to toss, vex, and yes, sometimes torture."

Your own words. Also, the word used is tormented, not torture. And don't be a troll? How so? By refuting your OP? Pfft.
Anonymous Coward
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Think it's also worth noting the verses that say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that god is lord, including everything on the earth and UNDER. Why would someone who's in hell for eternity worship god?
Anonymous Coward
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Well it's not like there isn't time to deal with it. I mean it's really a shame that they had to move forward with this plan. I expect the fallout to be significant.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54496793


Do you say the same exact thing on the "woo woos in the bar" thread?
Anonymous Coward
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Think it's also worth noting the verses that say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that god is lord, including everything on the earth and UNDER. Why would someone who's in hell for eternity worship god?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40446482


Under the earth. Those who died and will be resurrected.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Lake of Fire
Well it's not like there isn't time to deal with it. I mean it's really a shame that they had to move forward with this plan. I expect the fallout to be significant.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54496793


Do you say the same exact thing on the "woo woos in the bar" thread?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40446482


Didn't
rekameohsnad

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Re: The Lake of Fire
electricity and computer monitors

basically, the internet is a lake of fire




then there is the "spring in the well"

91 -8- 69
LunaRabbit (OP)

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Re: The Lake of Fire
The original words for sulfur and brimstone denoted purification. The ancient Greeks and Hebrews (whom Revelation was written to/for) knew fire and sulfur/brimstone were used in this manner. It was used in temples for dedicating things to God/making holy. The Greek word for sulfur (theion) also comes from the root word for God: theo.

The words for torment and eternal are the words basanizo/basano, kolasis, and aionious. These all mean temporary periods of punishment/chastisement and pruning. A time period has a distinct beginning and end. There is no eternity in the Lake.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


But God has always used fire and brimstone on his enemies. Forget about Sodom and Gomorrah?

And if they mean temporary times, then that also applies to the people in heaven. Is that what you are claiming since the same words are used. Are you denying eternal life?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


This was the only time in the Bible God destroyed a city with fire. And it was called Eternal Fire, yet the cities only burned until all evil was destroyed. The fire is no longer there.

Ezekiel 16:53 says: However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them

and

Matthew 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

If everyone is either annihilated or eternally tortured in the Lake of Fire, how are punishments better or worse for others? It would have to be the same punishment for all if this were the case.

I also do not deny eternal life. I believe when the scriptures say God will be all in all, that it means all of creation will have eternal life with God. The Lake of Fire is the final purge of sin and evil before this can happen.
Please make me wise and teach me the difference between right and wrong.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54495179
Ireland
02/17/2014 12:13 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
The original words for sulfur and brimstone denoted purification. The ancient Greeks and Hebrews (whom Revelation was written to/for) knew fire and sulfur/brimstone were used in this manner. It was used in temples for dedicating things to God/making holy. The Greek word for sulfur (theion) also comes from the root word for God: theo.

The words for torment and eternal are the words basanizo/basano, kolasis, and aionious. These all mean temporary periods of punishment/chastisement and pruning. A time period has a distinct beginning and end. There is no eternity in the Lake.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


But God has always used fire and brimstone on his enemies. Forget about Sodom and Gomorrah?

And if they mean temporary times, then that also applies to the people in heaven. Is that what you are claiming since the same words are used. Are you denying eternal life?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


This was the only time in the Bible God destroyed a city with fire. And it was called Eternal Fire, yet the cities only burned until all evil was destroyed. The fire is no longer there.

Ezekiel 16:53 says: However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them

and

Matthew 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

If everyone is either annihilated or eternally tortured in the Lake of Fire, how are punishments better or worse for others? It would have to be the same punishment for all if this were the case.

I also do not deny eternal life. I believe when the scriptures say God will be all in all, that it means all of creation will have eternal life with God. The Lake of Fire is the final purge of sin and evil before this can happen.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


I don't recall it ever mentioning "eternal fire". Can you please back up that claim? The punishment will either be the same or there could be different degrees of torment for some. We don't get to make the rules. You claim that the words used for eternal damnation will only be for temporary time, by your same logic, that needs to be applied to the eternal kingdom of God. You can't have one without the other.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2014 12:13 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
Think it's also worth noting the verses that say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that god is lord, including everything on the earth and UNDER. Why would someone who's in hell for eternity worship god?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40446482


Under the earth. Those who died and will be resurrected.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


It says every knee shall bow, not certain ones.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2014 12:17 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
Think it's also worth noting the verses that say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that god is lord, including everything on the earth and UNDER. Why would someone who's in hell for eternity worship god?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40446482


Under the earth. Those who died and will be resurrected.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


It says every knee shall bow, not certain ones.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40446482


lol what? Where did I say only certain ones would die? I was correcting your earlier point.

"Think it's also worth noting the verses that say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that god is lord, including everything on the earth and UNDER. Why would someone who's in hell for eternity worship god?"
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2014 12:18 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
Think it's also worth noting the verses that say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that god is lord, including everything on the earth and UNDER. Why would someone who's in hell for eternity worship god?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40446482


Under the earth. Those who died and will be resurrected.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


It says every knee shall bow, not certain ones.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40446482


lol what? Where did I say only certain ones? I was correcting your earlier point.

"Think it's also worth noting the verses that say every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that god is lord, including everything on the earth and UNDER. Why would someone who's in hell for eternity worship god?"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


Fixed.
LunaRabbit (OP)

User ID: 5186224
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02/17/2014 12:20 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
The original words for sulfur and brimstone denoted purification. The ancient Greeks and Hebrews (whom Revelation was written to/for) knew fire and sulfur/brimstone were used in this manner. It was used in temples for dedicating things to God/making holy. The Greek word for sulfur (theion) also comes from the root word for God: theo.

The words for torment and eternal are the words basanizo/basano, kolasis, and aionious. These all mean temporary periods of punishment/chastisement and pruning. A time period has a distinct beginning and end. There is no eternity in the Lake.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


But God has always used fire and brimstone on his enemies. Forget about Sodom and Gomorrah?

And if they mean temporary times, then that also applies to the people in heaven. Is that what you are claiming since the same words are used. Are you denying eternal life?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


This was the only time in the Bible God destroyed a city with fire. And it was called Eternal Fire, yet the cities only burned until all evil was destroyed. The fire is no longer there.

Ezekiel 16:53 says: However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them

and

Matthew 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

If everyone is either annihilated or eternally tortured in the Lake of Fire, how are punishments better or worse for others? It would have to be the same punishment for all if this were the case.

I also do not deny eternal life. I believe when the scriptures say God will be all in all, that it means all of creation will have eternal life with God. The Lake of Fire is the final purge of sin and evil before this can happen.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


I don't recall it ever mentioning "eternal fire". Can you please back up that claim? The punishment will either be the same or there could be different degrees of torment for some. We don't get to make the rules. You claim that the words used for eternal damnation will only be for temporary time, by your same logic, that needs to be applied to the eternal kingdom of God. You can't have one without the other.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

They aren't suffering yet because we know they aren't in the Lake yet. So we know the only "eternal fire" they experienced was literal fire on earth that burned their cities.

Why does punishment need to last forever in order for eternal life to be forever? Are you a parent? Do you have enemies? Would you put any of them through eternal torment for making mistakes? No, I'd hope not. Please, read the OP and the Salvation of All thread to get the full idea. I've covered your questions. If you still don't agree, that is fine. But I'd rather not spend a lot of time going over the same things.
Please make me wise and teach me the difference between right and wrong.
Yaala
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02/17/2014 12:26 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
The lake of fire is where spent energies go - definitely not for purification. It's also referred to in the spirit realm as the Orange Plane.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2014 12:30 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
...


But God has always used fire and brimstone on his enemies. Forget about Sodom and Gomorrah?

And if they mean temporary times, then that also applies to the people in heaven. Is that what you are claiming since the same words are used. Are you denying eternal life?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


This was the only time in the Bible God destroyed a city with fire. And it was called Eternal Fire, yet the cities only burned until all evil was destroyed. The fire is no longer there.

Ezekiel 16:53 says: However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them

and

Matthew 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

If everyone is either annihilated or eternally tortured in the Lake of Fire, how are punishments better or worse for others? It would have to be the same punishment for all if this were the case.

I also do not deny eternal life. I believe when the scriptures say God will be all in all, that it means all of creation will have eternal life with God. The Lake of Fire is the final purge of sin and evil before this can happen.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


I don't recall it ever mentioning "eternal fire". Can you please back up that claim? The punishment will either be the same or there could be different degrees of torment for some. We don't get to make the rules. You claim that the words used for eternal damnation will only be for temporary time, by your same logic, that needs to be applied to the eternal kingdom of God. You can't have one without the other.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

They aren't suffering yet because we know they aren't in the Lake yet. So we know the only "eternal fire" they experienced was literal fire on earth that burned their cities.

Why does punishment need to last forever in order for eternal life to be forever? Are you a parent? Do you have enemies? Would you put any of them through eternal torment for making mistakes? No, I'd hope not. Please, read the OP and the Salvation of All thread to get the full idea. I've covered your questions. If you still don't agree, that is fine. But I'd rather not spend a lot of time going over the same things.
 Quoting: LunaRabbit


Well that doesn't really make sense because the city has never been under eternal fire.

They are set forth (literally, they lie before us) for an example, suffering the vengeance (rather, the punishment) of eternal fire. So it is put by the Authorized Version and the Revised Version, as also by Wickliffe, Tyndale, Cranmer, the Genevan, and the Rhemish. There is much to be said, however, in favour of the order adopted by the Revised Version in its margin, viz. "set forth as an example of eternal fire, suffering punishment." It could not, except in a forced manner, be said that these cities, in being destroyed as they were, suffered the penalty of eternal fire, and continued to serve as an instance of that. But it could be said that, in being destroyed, they suffered punishment, and that the kind of punishment was typical of the eternal retribution of God. "A destruction," says Professor Lumby, "so utter and so permanent as theirs has been, is the nearest approach that can be found in this world to the destruction which awaits those who are kept under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

[link to biblehub.com]

Also, you didn't say anything about my previous point. The word used isn't torture but torment. I doubt the words meanings are the same. And my main point stays the same, it's either eternal life for both the lake of fire and the kingdom of God or it's temporary. And we all know that we are promised eternal life in the word of God.
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2014 12:32 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
You haven't covered my questions.

Why does punishment need to last forever in order for eternal life to be forever?

The same Greek word is used for both. aionios
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2014 12:43 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
I'm open to being wrong but until you can prove these points, I am unconvinced. peace
rekameohsnad

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02/17/2014 12:45 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
You haven't covered my questions.

Why does punishment need to last forever in order for eternal life to be forever?

The same Greek word is used for both. aionios
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54495179


eternal life of any form = punishment ??
rekameohsnad

User ID: 39092829
United States
02/17/2014 12:46 PM
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Re: The Lake of Fire
The lake of fire is where spent energies go - definitely not for purification. It's also referred to in the spirit realm as the Orange Plane.
 Quoting: Yaala 54495355


the bushing

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