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UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830

 
Dr_Doom
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
How long before Russia annex the ISS ??


drdoomison
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
MFA Russia @mfa_russia
#Lavrov: Permanent additional military presence in Eastern Europe is banned under the Rome Declaration and the NATO-Russia Founding Act


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5383047


After violating the Budapest Memorandum, he quotes other international agreements and expects others to abide by them?
 Quoting: hIndsIght2020

I think everyone can agree that international law and treaties should not be completely jettisoned?

Budapest Memo was violated by Ukraine and US and UK, when they supported the violent coup that overthrew its democratically elected government and completely changed the politics of the nation. (Even if the coup were on one level valid - due to Yanukovych's corruption.)

On the other hand, Crimea declared independence, and so Russia did not violate the Budapest Memorandum. What really pisses off the West is that Russia made sure Crimea could hold a vote and declare independence - if Ukraine could have, it would have stopped Crimea from doing so. But still, it was Crimea's decision, a democratic one.

The most you can accuse Russia of is ensuring that a democratic decision could be reached. Whereas the US/UK sponsored a non-democratic, violent coup.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Well said Sun_dancer!

clappa
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
The police shooting in front of the October Palace (big yellow building with white pillars) are firing only rubber bullets,

The position described by the Berkut in the RT article is the exact same position the police has taken all along: the police had only non-lethal force (rubber bullets, stun grrenades) but came under sniper fire, and these snipers also killed the protesters.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


...

Some of the Berkut are indeed shooting pump shotguns, but many of them are shooting AK's.

AK's do not shoot non-lethal rounds.


Berkut shooting AK-74, from video, Feb 20th, grounds of October Palace -
[link to pbs.twimg.com (secure)]


The videos I posted clearly show the Berkut shooting AK's. This isnt even a debatable issue. You are just continuing your blatant Russian shill lying youve been doing this entire thread 24/7.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5383047

First of all it is very difficult to identify rifle type from grainy pictures.

But here are some clear ones, from Feb. 19, showing Berkut firing similar rifles using rubber bullets: [link to www.globalpost.com] ; [link to www.unian.info]

And is it really true that an AK-47 cannot shoot rubber bullets? See this article from 2010 discussing rubber-bullets in AK-47s to disperse "mobs": [link to www.dnaindia.com] .

And here you can even buy rubber bullets for AK-47 - [link to www.lesslethalafrica.com] .

Finally, in the first few minutes of this video ( [link to www.youtube.com] ) you can see Berkut firing the same types of weapons again and again into the crowds. But nobody is dieing. Do you see someone dieing? Oh yeah, at 4:30-4:50, but it is a Berkut, not a protester.

Here is another angle of this same "battle", in front of October Palace. [link to www.youtube.com] Watch carefully from 1:10 - 6:40. You will see lots of Berkut firing many times this same weapon and throwing grenades - but not a single person dieing. If they were firing lethal bullets, there would have been massive massive casualties and people would have been running away! But for 6 minutes police are firing and people are just watching or even moving toward police.

I look at evidence only. Tell me where I am wrong, please. Time and link for video - show me a single protester dieing from a rifle fired by these Berkut in front of October Palace.
Sun_dancer
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Russian Market ‏@russian_market · 13 min
EU'S ASTHON SAYS NATO HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO VERIFY RUSSIAN TROOP PULL-BACK

- Maybe there was not so many Russians as you claimed before?
Luisport (OP)

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
RT ‏@RT_com · 14 min
WATCH LIVE: #Lavrov holds press conference following meeting with CIS ministers [link to on.rt.com]
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
So what's the consensus, war or not? I'm inclined to say, yes..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33376107


As long as west is continying poking and provoking Russia to commence first shot, then at some point YES, we will have GREAT WAR!

This will not be like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan.

US mainland will be war zone also!

At what cost? For what?
Luisport (OP)

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04/04/2014 05:15 AM

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
So what's the consensus, war or not? I'm inclined to say, yes..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33376107


As long as west is continying poking and provoking Russia to commence first shot, then at some point YES, we will have GREAT WAR!

This will not be like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan.

US mainland will be war zone also!

At what cost? For what?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 55958448

hesright
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Moscow has right to suspend NATO transit to Afghanistan across its territory - MP

NATO's decision to suspend cooperation with Russia gives Moscow the right to suspend NATO transit to Afghanistan across Russian territory, Federation Council Defense and Security Committee Chairman Viktor Ozerov said.

"NATO is transporting armaments, military hardware and servicemen to Afghanistan across our territory. If our cooperation comes to a halt, we will have the right to suspend this transit, and the alliance will have to find other routes," Ozerov told Interfax on Wednesday. ...

[link to voiceofrussia.com]


So... now what? pphtt
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Defence Ministry UA @DefenceUA
#NATO invites soldiers from #Ukraine to military drills in #bulgaria |DefenceUA #UnitedForUkraine

great burnit
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
Fox News with John Hagee

4 blood moons prophecy more real than ever
Polemarchos

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
I think everyone can agree that international law and treaties should not be completely jettisoned?

Budapest Memo was violated by Ukraine and US and UK, when they supported the violent coup that overthrew its democratically elected government and completely changed the politics of the nation. (Even if the coup were on one level valid - due to Yanukovych's corruption.)

On the other hand, Crimea declared independence, and so Russia did not violate the Budapest Memorandum. What really pisses off the West is that Russia made sure Crimea could hold a vote and declare independence - if Ukraine could have, it would have stopped Crimea from doing so. But still, it was Crimea's decision, a democratic one.

The most you can accuse Russia of is ensuring that a democratic decision could be reached. Whereas the US/UK sponsored a non-democratic, violent coup.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


No, Russia was the one that broke the Budapest Memo. First by using economic coercion against Ukraine to prevent Yanukovych from signing the free trade agreement with the EU.

Then Russia broke it again by violating Ukraine's territorial integrity - sending troops in Crimea, deposing the governor of Crimea and replacing him with a puppet who then organized the referendum. Then annexing Crimea.

And your shilling for Russia is so fucking obvious....
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
RT ‏@RT_com · 11 min
URGENT: Kiev ignored independent assessment of snipers at Maidan - Lavrov [link to on.rt.com] #Ukraine

Sun_dancer

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
More video that ... Sun Dancer wont like...

video of maidaners being shot and killed by the titushki(thugs paid by Berkut) working in conjuction with the police Feb 18th -

[link to www.youtube.com]

This is extremely damning evidence of what the government has done. You can see two guys reloading pistols, and hear the gunshots.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5383047


I see two guys at the beginning re-loading a gun - one at 1:00 and one at 1:02- but it is not clear to me when you hear gunshots and where they are coming from? Do you have times? It's not interesting for you to send a very long video and make claims about it without specifying where in the video you see the evidence. Looking at the last seconds of the video I don't see anyone dead, but there is also some smoke obscuring things.

Anyway I never made the claim that nobody associated with the government killed anybody during the Maidan protests. I have just made the claim that on Feb. 20, the day of the sniper shootings, the evidence points at somebody other than Berkut, most likely opposition forces, being the snipers.

Also do you know why this fight occurred? It looks like protesters were storming this building, but I don't know what else happened, or if anyone died there. Do you have information on that?

Graphic video of the wounded and dead protesters at Mariinsky Park, Feb 18th

[link to www.youtube.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5383047

Yes, very sad :(. However I cannot see who killed these people. It is easy of course to suspect police, but since I have my doubts about Feb. 20, I am not willing to accept police did this on Feb. 18 without evidence - it could also be this "third force" or opposition.

There was a lot of violence going on. I do not support anarchy or believe in mob rule and so frankly a lot of the "protesters" deserved to be beaten. I cannot see in the videos what happened before the scuffles shown, nor can I see how shot the people who appear to have been shot.

Focusing on Feb. 20 is a bit easier, as there is much more video of that day.

Captured Yanukovych thugs confessing they got $50 and weapons to kill protesters

[link to www.youtube.com]

(turn CC on for English subtitles)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5383047

The subtitles don't seem to match what is being said. I certainly did not hear any confession of killing - where is that? Who are these people, and where are they now? Were they simply released after confessing to murder, as you claim? How do you know the "interview" was not staged? How do you know they were not threatened to say something not true?

This was a major socio-political event, with many intelligence agencies involved, so one cannot just take everything for granted. I only believe hard evidence in these cases.
Sun_dancer
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Russian Market ‏@russian_market · 3 min
Meanwhile the reshuffle in Kazakhstan's cabinet continues:
- Karabalin and Sultanov stay.
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Russian Market ‏@russian_market · 4 min
Geez. Now they are talking officially about replacing McDonalds in Russia.

Sun_dancer

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
I think everyone can agree that international law and treaties should not be completely jettisoned?

Budapest Memo was violated by Ukraine and US and UK, when they supported the violent coup that overthrew its democratically elected government and completely changed the politics of the nation. (Even if the coup were on one level valid - due to Yanukovych's corruption.)

On the other hand, Crimea declared independence, and so Russia did not violate the Budapest Memorandum. What really pisses off the West is that Russia made sure Crimea could hold a vote and declare independence - if Ukraine could have, it would have stopped Crimea from doing so. But still, it was Crimea's decision, a democratic one.

The most you can accuse Russia of is ensuring that a democratic decision could be reached. Whereas the US/UK sponsored a non-democratic, violent coup.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


No, Russia was the one that broke the Budapest Memo. First by using economic coercion against Ukraine to prevent Yanukovych from signing the free trade agreement with the EU.

Then Russia broke it again by violating Ukraine's territorial integrity - sending troops in Crimea, deposing the governor of Crimea and replacing him with a puppet who then organized the referendum. Then annexing Crimea.

And your shilling for Russia is so fucking obvious....
 Quoting: Polemarchos

What economic sanctions did Russia use, and how did they violate the Budapest Memorandum? Do you mean Russia proposing a favorable trade deal with Ukraine constitutes the use or threatened use of force against Ukraine's political independence? WTF? And the Budapest Memorandum basically just copies international law - it is a violation to use force against any country's political indepenedenc. See Article 2(4) of UN Charter at [link to www.un.org] .

So are you saying everytime US proposes favorable trade terms on conditions, it is violating international law? Or is there some special rule that requires Russia to give favorable trade terms to those hostile to it?

Now by the time anything happened in Crimea, the US/UK had already violated the Budapest Memorandum, as had the Ukrainian government itself when it seized power by force. So when you have a contract, and one party violates it, the other party need no longer comply. For example: if you have a lease for an apartment, and the landlord (in violation of the lease) kicks you out, you no longer must pay rent. This is obvious.

But beyond that, where is your evidence that Russia violated Ukraine's territorial integrity? "Territorial integrity" does not mean what you seem to think - see [link to www.princeton.edu] .

Like I said, Russia did support Crimea's ability to hold a referendum. You can make an argument that this violated Ukraine's territorial integrity but I don't buy it, since the only threatened use of force was against Ukraine stopping the democratic vote. In this regard, I would compare Kosovo, where NATO also used the threat of force to permit Kosovo to declare independence, and this was found to be legal by the International Court of Justice.
Sun_dancer
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Buchanan sums it up: "Whose Side Is God on Now?"


[link to www.creators.com]
alexisj9

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Russian Market ‏@russian_market · 4 min
Geez. Now they are talking officially about replacing McDonalds in Russia.


 Quoting: Luisport


lol, well that's a good thing anyway, fast food can be convenient but it's also rubbish.
Limpan

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Russian Market ‏@russian_market · 4 min
Geez. Now they are talking officially about replacing McDonalds in Russia.


 Quoting: Luisport


New?? I thought this came out yesterday??

hf
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Lavrov's and Rasmussen's mutually exclusive statements about the troops in Eastern Europe and on Russian border, will lead to more than war of words, rather soon.

Russia pulled out of the treaty of conventional forces in Europe and that's why it masses unsanctioned troops on Ukraine's borders. It wasn't allowed to do so under that treaty. Perhaps NATO will respond with stationing more troops, as Obama said. The anti ballistic missiles are an option too, that will drive Kremlin literally crazy. Because it is one of the few methods capable of intercepting the big ISBMs minutes after their launch. May be the cheapest one. Reagan's Star Wars never materialized.

I doubt very much the technical range of Iskanders. It is according to the wording of another treaty of medium range missiles that forbids missiles in the range 500-1500 km, signed by Reagan and Gorbachev. Since all the rest of world powers have them and are not signatories of the cold war era treaty, it is a matter of time before Russia declares it ceased. There were calls from Russian generals and politicians. I bet both Iskander and Yakhont have a greater range than declared. Sure the KH missiles with 3000 km range of strategic bombers that unknown why do not fall within the treaty's limitations. Now we see similar missiles stationed in Club formations on the ground in Crimea.

All the treaty systems are wordings that depend on the will of signatories to be followed. Thus we might question the existence of nukes in space, or FOBS systems, or other newer types of weapons such as lasers (star wars). Russian generals supposed stationing of nukes in space during Georgian war.

In short, I see the big war starting very soon, with both/all sides build up now, before that exact moment.
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Buchanan sums it up: "Whose Side Is God on Now?"


[link to www.creators.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33863384


Nooooo!
Listen to John Hagee's prediction of 4 blood moons. God doesn't take sides, God is above that, it is we who take side of God or the opposite of God.
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2014 06:09 AM
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Buchanan sums it up: "Whose Side Is God on Now?"


[link to www.creators.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33863384


Everyone should read above regardless of your view.

McDonalds speaks for itself.....................
Lux Æterna

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Buchanan sums it up: "Whose Side Is God on Now?"


[link to www.creators.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33863384



Revealing indeed.

applause2
The meek shall inherit the Earth.
Jesus of Nazareth
Uncle Fuck Stick
WAKE THE FUCK UP !!!!!!!!

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
That's it....America will just ban All McRooskies Restaurants .....of we don't have any ...

What's Russia going to do next ban rock and roll?
Mr. Toppit

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Moscow has right to suspend NATO transit to Afghanistan across its territory - MP

NATO's decision to suspend cooperation with Russia gives Moscow the right to suspend NATO transit to Afghanistan across Russian territory, Federation Council Defense and Security Committee Chairman Viktor Ozerov said.

"NATO is transporting armaments, military hardware and servicemen to Afghanistan across our territory. If our cooperation comes to a halt, we will have the right to suspend this transit, and the alliance will have to find other routes," Ozerov told Interfax on Wednesday. ...

[link to voiceofrussia.com]


So... now what? pphtt
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7901784


Space plane. Money is no object with the US.Gov.
Sun_dancer

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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Russian Market ‏@russian_market · 4 min
Geez. Now they are talking officially about replacing McDonalds in Russia.


 Quoting: Luisport

Another tweet taken as gospel :).

The truth, apparently, is something close to this: the (eccentric "clown") legislator Vladimir Zhirinovsky has made such a proposal. And it is not even clear he will propose legislation on this.

[link to en.itar-tass.com]

Zhirinovsky was also the one who:

* proposed splitting up Ukraine among Russia, Poland, Romania and Hungaria ( [link to www.zerohedge.com] )
* proposed banning the legislator who, among other things, was the only one in the Duma to oppose the annexation of Crimea ( [link to www.freerepublic.com]

In short, this guy does a lot of publicity stunts.
Sun_dancer
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Euromaidan PR ‏@euromaidanpr 14m

Ukrainian military from #Crimea moving to Mykolaiv &Odesa. Today 1250 officers are already in #Ukraine mainland
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
natalia antelava‏@antelava·4h
Reports that Moscow has simplified procedures for issuing Russian passports to Russian speaking Georgians + military build up in Ossetia.
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Juli Lugovska‏@asya_lugovska·4h
#USA and #EU officials: #Ukraine will receive #Polish gas throgh #Slovakia and #Hungary in order to lessen its energy dependece on #Russia.
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Re: UKRAINE: EU ASKS LEADERS TO PREPARE URGENT NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA -AGENCIES!!! p5830
Blake Hounshell‏@blakehounshell·1 hr
RT @neilsai: Not nice Putin. Syria govt now w Smerch & Uragan rockets & increased use of MiG-29s [link to bloom.bg]

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