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UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750

 
Polemarchos

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04/04/2014 07:13 AM

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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
I think everyone can agree that international law and treaties should not be completely jettisoned?

Budapest Memo was violated by Ukraine and US and UK, when they supported the violent coup that overthrew its democratically elected government and completely changed the politics of the nation. (Even if the coup were on one level valid - due to Yanukovych's corruption.)

On the other hand, Crimea declared independence, and so Russia did not violate the Budapest Memorandum. What really pisses off the West is that Russia made sure Crimea could hold a vote and declare independence - if Ukraine could have, it would have stopped Crimea from doing so. But still, it was Crimea's decision, a democratic one.

The most you can accuse Russia of is ensuring that a democratic decision could be reached. Whereas the US/UK sponsored a non-democratic, violent coup.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


No, Russia was the one that broke the Budapest Memo. First by using economic coercion against Ukraine to prevent Yanukovych from signing the free trade agreement with the EU.

Then Russia broke it again by violating Ukraine's territorial integrity - sending troops in Crimea, deposing the governor of Crimea and replacing him with a puppet who then organized the referendum. Then annexing Crimea.

And your shilling for Russia is so fucking obvious....
 Quoting: Polemarchos

What economic sanctions did Russia use, and how did they violate the Budapest Memorandum? Do you mean Russia proposing a favorable trade deal with Ukraine constitutes the use or threatened use of force against Ukraine's political independence? WTF? And the Budapest Memorandum basically just copies international law - it is a violation to use force against any country's political indepenedenc. See Article 2(4) of UN Charter at [link to www.un.org] .

So are you saying everytime US proposes favorable trade terms on conditions, it is violating international law? Or is there some special rule that requires Russia to give favorable trade terms to those hostile to it?

Now by the time anything happened in Crimea, the US/UK had already violated the Budapest Memorandum, as had the Ukrainian government itself when it seized power by force. So when you have a contract, and one party violates it, the other party need no longer comply. For example: if you have a lease for an apartment, and the landlord (in violation of the lease) kicks you out, you no longer must pay rent. This is obvious.

But beyond that, where is your evidence that Russia violated Ukraine's territorial integrity? "Territorial integrity" does not mean what you seem to think - see [link to www.princeton.edu] .

Like I said, Russia did support Crimea's ability to hold a referendum. You can make an argument that this violated Ukraine's territorial integrity but I don't buy it, since the only threatened use of force was against Ukraine stopping the democratic vote. In this regard, I would compare Kosovo, where NATO also used the threat of force to permit Kosovo to declare independence, and this was found to be legal by the International Court of Justice.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Russia threatened Ukraine to punish it economically if it signs the free trade agreement with the EU. By placing trade restrictions. These threats/hints started in early and mid 2013, long before any Maidan.

Whatever happened in Maidan it had no impact on the Budapest Memorandum since it was Ukraine's internal problem.

Russia used the events in Maidan to activate and implement a long prepared plan to grab Crimea. It's clear even for kindergarden kids.

Russia violated Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity by moving troops outside their bases in Crimea, surrounding Ukraine army bases in Crimea, taking over ships, blockading naval bases and all sorts of other things. And ofcourse making it possible for Crimea to secede. Then by annexing Crimea.

Last Edited by Polemarchos on 04/04/2014 07:14 AM
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
That's it....America will just ban All McRooskies Restaurants .....of we don't have any ...

What's Russia going to do next ban rock and roll?
 Quoting: Uncle Fuck Stick


Putin already banned womens lingerie & lace underwear. stores cant sell them & no imports are allowed. it takes effect this coming june.
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
OSINT‏@osint_org·7 hrs
Latvia Blocks Russian-Language Station [link to on.wsj.com]
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
Maxim Eristavi‏@MaximEristavi·2h
US follows Europeans in suspending flights over Crimea, fears confusion & hazard after Russia controls ATC -@KiritRadia
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
Ukraine in 'emergency talks' with European neighbors on possibility of importing natural gas from the West, Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk says - @Reeuuters
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
VoiceOfRussia: Over 51% Ukrainians disagree with change of power in the country - poll

Title a bit misleading, should read only 49% support the change.

"According to the poll results, 31% of respondents said they wholeheartedly supported the change of power in Kiev in February, 18% would be likely to support it, 16% would be unlikely to support it, 18% of those interviewed strongly criticized these events, and 18% were undecided.

...

"GfK Ukraine said in a press release that 29% of Ukrainians believe their country is moving in the right direction today (7% in February), and 42% of those polled criticized the path recently chosen by Ukraine (70% in February)."

[link to voiceofrussia.com]
Sun_dancer
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
14:23 Yanukovych's political life in Ukraine is over - U.S. ambassador to Ukraine


14:32 Lavrov: Ukrainian crisis won't be resolved until Kyiv respects rights of all citizens


14:45 Reduction of trade and economic cooperation with Russia is serious challenge for Ukraine's economy - Yatsenyuk


14:51 Russian banks could withstand closure of external markets - CB


15:21 Banks reluctant to develop Crimea business over Western sanction concerns - Simanovsky


[link to www.interfax.com]
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
This could be significant. A US Army Brigade typically consists of 2500-4000 personnel


zerohedge‏@zerohedge·13m
Hagel Says U.S. Mulls Adding Brigade in Europe to Counter Russia
Sun_dancer

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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
What economic sanctions did Russia use, and how did they violate the Budapest Memorandum? Do you mean Russia proposing a favorable trade deal with Ukraine constitutes the use or threatened use of force against Ukraine's political independence? WTF? And the Budapest Memorandum basically just copies international law - it is a violation to use force against any country's political indepenedenc. See Article 2(4) of UN Charter at [link to www.un.org] .

So are you saying everytime US proposes favorable trade terms on conditions, it is violating international law? Or is there some special rule that requires Russia to give favorable trade terms to those hostile to it?

Now by the time anything happened in Crimea, the US/UK had already violated the Budapest Memorandum, as had the Ukrainian government itself when it seized power by force. So when you have a contract, and one party violates it, the other party need no longer comply. For example: if you have a lease for an apartment, and the landlord (in violation of the lease) kicks you out, you no longer must pay rent. This is obvious.

But beyond that, where is your evidence that Russia violated Ukraine's territorial integrity? "Territorial integrity" does not mean what you seem to think - see [link to www.princeton.edu] .

Like I said, Russia did support Crimea's ability to hold a referendum. You can make an argument that this violated Ukraine's territorial integrity but I don't buy it, since the only threatened use of force was against Ukraine stopping the democratic vote. In this regard, I would compare Kosovo, where NATO also used the threat of force to permit Kosovo to declare independence, and this was found to be legal by the International Court of Justice.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Russia threatened Ukraine to punish it economically if it signs the free trade agreement with the EU. By placing trade restrictions. These threats/hints started in early and mid 2013, long before any Maidan.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

Even if I were to agree with you about "punishment", which is far from clear, refusing to do business with someone in no way violates international law, or the Budapest Memorandum. On the other hand, the sanctions US has against Iran and Cuba, I do think those are unlawful, since they also require other countries to impose sanctions, and they kill children.

Whatever happened in Maidan it had no impact on the Budapest Memorandum since it was Ukraine's internal problem.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

Sorry, when foreigners sponsor, train and support violent mobs that overthrow the government - that violates international law. Of course it is also "Ukraine's internal problem".

Russia used the events in Maidan to activate and implement a long prepared plan to grab Crimea. It's clear even for kindergarden kids.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

Having contingency plans also does not violate international law. As you may recall, Crimea was taken from Russia by Communist dictate. Crimea has often wanted to return to Russia - just read up on Crimean history from 1991-2014 (and not just on Wikipedia, which is a joke when it comes to any controversial topic.)

Russia violated Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity by moving troops outside their bases in Crimea, surrounding Ukraine army bases in Crimea, taking over ships, blockading naval bases and all sorts of other things. And ofcourse making it possible for Crimea to secede. Then by annexing Crimea.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

Of course there is debate about who certain forces were. I have no doubt that not just Russia, but Crimean authorities, have long been preparing for that day. Already in 2008 a poll conducted by the Razumkov Centre determined 63.8 percent of Crimeans would like for Crimea to “secede from Ukraine and join Russia.” It has been a long-standing desire - one that dates back to the day in 1991 when Crimea unexpectedly found itself as part of Ukraine instead of Russia, where it belonged.

That's why, unlike you, I don't automatically disbelieve claims that these "self-defense forces" were not Russian. Did Russia supply their equipment? I don't know, I do know that I have been to many military supply stores where you can get basically everything they were wearing. Maybe Russia gave them equipment too - I don't know and I don't care.

In terms of blocking naval bases, yes, it was a brief blockade. Already on Feb. 27, shortly after the coup, the Crimean Parliament decided to declare independence from Ukraine, and asked Russia for assistance. Some assistance was provided to ensure the vote went smoothly and Ukraine did not prevent it. Once can argue whether technically this assistance violated international law, since Crimea was unable to take these defensive measures itself. The argument would be: the moment Crimea declared itself independent, on February 27, it was no longer part of Ukraine, and Ukraine's ships were trespassing on Crimean waters. Crimea asked them to leave; when they refused, Russia blockaded them at Crimea's request.

Instead of focusing on such small possible slights, which rectify a major and actual harm inflicted on the Crimean people when they were forced into Ukraine, why not focus on what US/NATO is doing in Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, etc.? Because what they do is infinitely worse, yet they are the most hypocritical ranters and hyperventilators ....

Last Edited by Sun_dancer on 04/04/2014 07:53 AM
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
So what's the consensus, war or not? I'm inclined to say, yes..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33376107


As long as west is continying poking and provoking Russia to commence first shot, then at some point YES, we will have GREAT WAR!

This will not be like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan.

US mainland will be war zone also!

At what cost? For what?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 55958448


for full pouches of banksters, according to Georgia stone slabs 500 millions people is enough to provide work and foods for khazar elite, the rest can be culled according to khazar planners. And robots can subsitute even majority of those 500 millions, perspectively only khazar banksters and robots will live on Earth.
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
This could be significant. A US Army Brigade typically consists of 2500-4000 personnel


zerohedge‏@zerohedge·13m
Hagel Says U.S. Mulls Adding Brigade in Europe to Counter Russia
 Quoting: Newshunter


I'd like to see them conducting something like Exercise Reforger 88 with 125,000 troops.
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
This could be significant. A US Army Brigade typically consists of 2500-4000 personnel


zerohedge‏@zerohedge·13m
Hagel Says U.S. Mulls Adding Brigade in Europe to Counter Russia
 Quoting: Newshunter


where, to Germany may be?
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
ITAR-TASS:

Crimea ready to lure six million tourists during season to be started May 1

[link to en.itar-tass.com]


More than 8,000 former Ukrainian military in Crimea requesting Russian passports

[link to en.itar-tass.com]


Two representatives of Crimean Tatars appointed to republic's government

[link to en.itar-tass.com]


Political repressions rule out civilized solution of Ukrainian crisis – MP

[link to en.itar-tass.com]


Moscow [did] not have anything to do with [investigation of] Maidain snipers case – Lavrov

[link to en.itar-tass.com]

Last Edited by Sun_dancer on 04/04/2014 08:08 AM
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
RUSSIAN INFLATION ACCELERATES TO 6.9% IN ANNUAL TERMS IN MARCH, FROM 6.2% IN FEBRUARY - ROSSTAT INTERFAX
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
What economic sanctions did Russia use, and how did they violate the Budapest Memorandum? Do you mean Russia proposing a favorable trade deal with Ukraine constitutes the use or threatened use of force against Ukraine's political independence? WTF? And the Budapest Memorandum basically just copies international law - it is a violation to use force against any country's political indepenedenc. See Article 2(4) of UN Charter at [link to www.un.org] .

So are you saying everytime US proposes favorable trade terms on conditions, it is violating international law? Or is there some special rule that requires Russia to give favorable trade terms to those hostile to it?

Now by the time anything happened in Crimea, the US/UK had already violated the Budapest Memorandum, as had the Ukrainian government itself when it seized power by force. So when you have a contract, and one party violates it, the other party need no longer comply. For example: if you have a lease for an apartment, and the landlord (in violation of the lease) kicks you out, you no longer must pay rent. This is obvious.

But beyond that, where is your evidence that Russia violated Ukraine's territorial integrity? "Territorial integrity" does not mean what you seem to think - see [link to www.princeton.edu] .

Like I said, Russia did support Crimea's ability to hold a referendum. You can make an argument that this violated Ukraine's territorial integrity but I don't buy it, since the only threatened use of force was against Ukraine stopping the democratic vote. In this regard, I would compare Kosovo, where NATO also used the threat of force to permit Kosovo to declare independence, and this was found to be legal by the International Court of Justice.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Russia threatened Ukraine to punish it economically if it signs the free trade agreement with the EU. By placing trade restrictions. These threats/hints started in early and mid 2013, long before any Maidan.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

Even if I were to agree with you about "punishment", which is far from clear, refusing to do business with someone in no way violates international law, or the Budapest Memorandum. On the other hand, the sanctions US has against Iran and Cuba, I do think those are unlawful, since they also require other countries to impose sanctions, and they kill children.

Whatever happened in Maidan it had no impact on the Budapest Memorandum since it was Ukraine's internal problem.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

Sorry, when foreigners sponsor, train and support violent mobs that overthrow the government - that violates international law. Of course it is also "Ukraine's internal problem".

Russia used the events in Maidan to activate and implement a long prepared plan to grab Crimea. It's clear even for kindergarden kids.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

Having contingency plans also does not violate international law. As you may recall, Crimea was taken from Russia by Communist dictate. Crimea has often wanted to return to Russia - just read up on Crimean history from 1991-2014 (and not just on Wikipedia, which is a joke when it comes to any controversial topic.)

Russia violated Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity by moving troops outside their bases in Crimea, surrounding Ukraine army bases in Crimea, taking over ships, blockading naval bases and all sorts of other things. And ofcourse making it possible for Crimea to secede. Then by annexing Crimea.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

Of course there is debate about who certain forces were. I have no doubt that not just Russia, but Crimean authorities, have long been preparing for that day. Already in 2008 a poll conducted by the Razumkov Centre determined 63.8 percent of Crimeans would like for Crimea to “secede from Ukraine and join Russia.” It has been a long-standing desire - one that dates back to the day in 1991 when Crimea unexpectedly found itself as part of Ukraine instead of Russia, where it belonged.

That's why, unlike you, I don't automatically disbelieve claims that these "self-defense forces" were not Russian. Did Russia supply their equipment? I don't know, I do know that I have been to many military supply stores where you can get basically everything they were wearing. Maybe Russia gave them equipment too - I don't know and I don't care.

In terms of blocking naval bases, yes, it was a brief blockade. Already on Feb. 27, shortly after the coup, the Crimean Parliament decided to declare independence from Ukraine, and asked Russia for assistance. Some assistance was provided to ensure the vote went smoothly and Ukraine did not prevent it. Once can argue whether technically this assistance violated international law, since Crimea was unable to take these defensive measures itself. The argument would be: the moment Crimea declared itself independent, on February 27, it was no longer part of Ukraine, and Ukraine's ships were trespassing on Crimean waters. Crimea asked them to leave; when they refused, Russia blockaded them at Crimea's request.

Instead of focusing on such small possible slights, which rectify a major and actual harm inflicted on the Crimean people when they were forced into Ukraine, why not focus on what US/NATO is doing in Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, etc.? Because what they do is infinitely worse, yet they are the most hypocritical ranters and hyperventilators ....
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


And I would like to add that the Republic of Crimea was already a "some independent entity" from Ukraine and now is gone. So, Polemarchos put your soul in pace.

Gone... that's it! End of story.

rex
Polemarchos

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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
Even if I were to agree with you about "punishment", which is far from clear, refusing to do business with someone in no way violates international law, or the Budapest Memorandum.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Actually by threatening economic punishment if Ukraine exercised its sovereign right to sign an economic agreement with the EU Russia broke Article 3 of the memorandum.

In Article 3 the signatories vowed to: "refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind".

Sorry, when foreigners sponsor, train and support violent mobs that overthrow the government - that violates international law. Of course it is also "Ukraine's internal problem".
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


A revolution, an overthrow of government or even a civil war doesn't cancel a state's sovereignty and border integrity. The Budapest Memorandum doesn't have any article or annex stating that its provisions become null if a Ukrainian president or government is overthrown in this or that manner.

That's why, unlike you, I don't automatically disbelieve claims that these "self-defense forces" were not Russian. Did Russia supply their equipment? I don't know, I do know that I have been to many military supply stores where you can get basically everything they were wearing. Maybe Russia gave them equipment too - I don't know and I don't care.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Gun ownership is very limited/strict in Europe. There are no military supply stores where one can purchase latest AKs and kevlars. And those guys also had even heavy machineguns.

In terms of blocking naval bases, yes, it was a brief blockade. Already on Feb. 27, shortly after the coup, the Crimean Parliament decided to declare independence from Ukraine, and asked Russia for assistance. Some assistance was provided to ensure the vote went smoothly and Ukraine did not prevent it. Once can argue whether technically this assistance violated international law, since Crimea was unable to take these defensive measures itself. The argument would be: the moment Crimea declared itself independent, on February 27, it was no longer part of Ukraine, and Ukraine's ships were trespassing on Crimean waters. Crimea asked them to leave; when they refused, Russia blockaded them at Crimea's request.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


It sure broke Russia's signature/promise on the Budapest Memorandum.
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
Fox News with John Hagee

4 blood moons prophecy more real than ever
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54888721


Is John Hagee still pretending to be a Christian? He should just convert to Judaism and have done.
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750

Russia used the events in Maidan to activate and implement a long prepared plan to grab Crimea. It's clear even for kindergarden kids.

Russia violated Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity by moving troops outside their bases in Crimea, surrounding Ukraine army bases in Crimea, taking over ships, blockading naval bases and all sorts of other things. And ofcourse making it possible for Crimea to secede. Then by annexing Crimea.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer



Ukrainean assassin Krustchew stole Crimea from Russia and now the Ukrainean unfairness was amended, and in a fair way, via free referendum. In 1954 Krustchew did not ask anybody, there was no referendum.
Btw If Moldova would be attached back to Romania by referendum, would your foul rhetorics be the same?
Polemarchos

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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
And I would like to add that the Republic of Crimea was already a "some independent entity" from Ukraine and now is gone. So, Polemarchos put your soul in pace.

Gone... that's it! End of story.

rex
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7901784


I am at peace. I know Putin will plunge the world in WW3.
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And I would like to add that the Republic of Crimea was already a "some independent entity" from Ukraine and now is gone. So, Polemarchos put your soul in pace.

Gone... that's it! End of story.

rex
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7901784


I am at peace. I know Putin will plunge the world in WW3.
 Quoting: Polemarchos


hf
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
Euromaidan PR‏@EuromaidanPR·3m
Part of Ukr military loyal to oath remain in #Crimea to help withdraw #Ukraine's military equipment to mainland. [link to mil.gov.ua]


Euromaidan PR‏@EuromaidanPR·11m
Border crossing in Novoazovsk, #Donetsk region was expecting separatists' rally today w/road blocking |PR news
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Maxim Eristavi‏@MaximEristavi·1 min
Ukraine PM @Yatsenyuk_AP plans an Eastern Ukraine trip to calm down separatists+expanding Russian language & autonomy msgs - stmt


MFA Russia‏@mfa_russia·2 mins
#Lavrov: As for possible joint investigations involving Russia, I must point out that the crimes were committed in Ukraine, not Russia
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
And I would like to add that the Republic of Crimea was already a "some independent entity" from Ukraine and now is gone. So, Polemarchos put your soul in pace.

Gone... that's it! End of story.

rex
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7901784


I am at peace. I know Putin will plunge the world in WW3.
 Quoting: Polemarchos


my previous post was directed at you Polyfartos, not to Sun Dancer, to whom I apologize.
Ukrainean assassin Krustchew stole Crimea from Russia and now the Ukrainean unfairness was amended, and in a fair way, via free referendum. In 1954 Krustchew did not ask anybody, there was no referendum.
Btw If Moldova would be attached back to Romania by referendum, would your foul rhetorics be the same?
Unless you are after fresh lobotomy, you must know that it is not Putin who presses the world over the abyss rim, but the khazar greedy pimps who are pimping US political scene. Or are you one of them?
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
Even if I were to agree with you about "punishment", which is far from clear, refusing to do business with someone in no way violates international law, or the Budapest Memorandum.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Actually by threatening economic punishment if Ukraine exercised its sovereign right to sign an economic agreement with the EU Russia broke Article 3 of the memorandum.

In Article 3 the signatories vowed to: "refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind".
 Quoting: Polemarchos

What does "economic coercion" mean under international law, and what did Russia do specifically to "economically coerce" Ukraine?

You seem to use the word "punishment" as if it means "economic coercion", but there are not the same terms. "Economic coercion" is a specific legal term. Unless you know what it means, you are in no position to accuse anyone of doing this.

And what specific acts do you contend were "economic coercion" (as defined by international law, not as you may imagine it is defined not knowing anything about it)?

Sorry, when foreigners sponsor, train and support violent mobs that overthrow the government - that violates international law. Of course it is also "Ukraine's internal problem".
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


A revolution, an overthrow of government or even a civil war doesn't cancel a state's sovereignty and border integrity. The Budapest Memorandum doesn't have any article or annex stating that its provisions become null if a Ukrainian president or government is overthrown in this or that manner.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

I was referring to the principle of international law, encapsulated in Article 2(4) of the UN Charter and section 2 of the Budapest Memo, to "refrain from the ... use of force against the ... political independence of Ukraine".

If one country hires an armed mob to take over the capital of a country and install a puppet regime, I would consider it a violation of those provisions. And to a large extent, that is what happened in Kiev. If the US/EU would have stayed completely out of it, there would have been no violation; but they did not.

That's why, unlike you, I don't automatically disbelieve claims that these "self-defense forces" were not Russian. Did Russia supply their equipment? I don't know, I do know that I have been to many military supply stores where you can get basically everything they were wearing. Maybe Russia gave them equipment too - I don't know and I don't care.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Gun ownership is very limited/strict in Europe. There are no military supply stores where one can purchase latest AKs and kevlars. And those guys also had even heavy machineguns.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

Different guys had different equipment. But Crimean parliament / government is not limited by military supply stores - I was just giving an example since many commentators had focused on their uniforms and their training (well every Ukrainian man has military training - until recently Ukraine had conscription).

Some of the guys were clearly Russian military, but these guys were legally on Crimean land. As you know, Russia has a lot of actual military bases there. Some probably went off base when not allowed to by the coup government, but if one takes the view that the coup government is illegitimate, who cares what they say.

Then we also have requests for Russian help from both Crimean parliament and the constitutional President of Ukraine.

I would not worry about legal ramifications of this if I were Russia. Many many worse things happen in the world and the perpetrators are not punished.

In terms of blocking naval bases, yes, it was a brief blockade. Already on Feb. 27, shortly after the coup, the Crimean Parliament decided to declare independence from Ukraine, and asked Russia for assistance. Some assistance was provided to ensure the vote went smoothly and Ukraine did not prevent it. Once can argue whether technically this assistance violated international law, since Crimea was unable to take these defensive measures itself. The argument would be: the moment Crimea declared itself independent, on February 27, it was no longer part of Ukraine, and Ukraine's ships were trespassing on Crimean waters. Crimea asked them to leave; when they refused, Russia blockaded them at Crimea's request.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


It sure broke Russia's signature/promise on the Budapest Memorandum.
 Quoting: Polemarchos

We'll just agree to disagree. Good day!

Last Edited by Sun_dancer on 04/04/2014 08:40 AM
Sun_dancer
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04/04/2014 08:41 AM
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
Agenzia Italia‏@AGI_Italy_News·2 mins
Russia deploys troops on Transnistria border: (AGI) Kiev, April 4 - Ukraine's deputy Prime Minister, [link to www.agi.it]


(AGI) Kiev, April 4 - Ukraine's deputy Prime Minister, Vitali Yarema, has accused Russia of preparing to annex the Moldavian region of Transnistria, amassing 15,000 troops on the border.
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04/04/2014 08:42 AM

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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
Russian Market ‏@russian_market · 4 min
Geez. Now they are talking officially about replacing McDonalds in Russia.


 Quoting: Luisport


Make room for Mc Rooskie!

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04/04/2014 08:45 AM
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
Agenzia Italia‏@AGI_Italy_News·2 mins
Russia deploys troops on Transnistria border: (AGI) Kiev, April 4 - Ukraine's deputy Prime Minister, [link to www.agi.it]


(AGI) Kiev, April 4 - Ukraine's deputy Prime Minister, Vitali Yarema, has accused Russia of preparing to annex the Moldavian region of Transnistria, amassing 15,000 troops on the border.
 Quoting: Newshunter


Well wouldn´t they have to be in mainland Ukraine to do so? So I doubt it..
Loosing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth. ~Ludwig Börne

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide
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04/04/2014 08:47 AM
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
Agenzia Italia‏@AGI_Italy_News·2 mins
Russia deploys troops on Transnistria border: (AGI) Kiev, April 4 - Ukraine's deputy Prime Minister, [link to www.agi.it]


(AGI) Kiev, April 4 - Ukraine's deputy Prime Minister, Vitali Yarema, has accused Russia of preparing to annex the Moldavian region of Transnistria, amassing 15,000 troops on the border.
 Quoting: Newshunter


Well wouldn´t they have to be in mainland Ukraine to do so? So I doubt it..
 Quoting: Nordic Wolf

Don't worry, Ukraine and NATO have been crying "Nordic Wolf" for weeks now!!
Sun_dancer
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04/04/2014 08:50 AM
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
That's it....America will just ban All McRooskies Restaurants .....of we don't have any ...

What's Russia going to do next ban rock and roll?
 Quoting: Uncle Fuck Stick


Putin already banned womens lingerie & lace underwear. stores cant sell them & no imports are allowed. it takes effect this coming june.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39204702


Nah, rock and roll already destroyed in America along with all other arts, literature and journalism on purpose, gee wonder why?
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2014 08:52 AM
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Re: UKRAINE: BREAKING: Ukraine will participate in NATO Summit in Scotland. The only non-member of the alliance asked to join the summit!!! p5750
That's it....America will just ban All McRooskies Restaurants .....of we don't have any ...

What's Russia going to do next ban rock and roll?
 Quoting: Uncle Fuck Stick


Putin already banned womens lingerie & lace underwear. stores cant sell them & no imports are allowed. it takes effect this coming june.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39204702


Nah, rock and roll already destroyed in America along with all other arts, literature and journalism on purpose, gee wonder why?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33863384


Education as well, forgot that one.

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