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UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387

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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
Popular discontent grows with German media lies in Ukraine crisis

By Anna Rombach
4 April 2014

An unprecedented wave of anti-Russian propaganda has dominated the German media in the wake of the US- and German-backed coup in Kiev. Leading publications such as Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, Süddeutsche Zeitun g and Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, but also so-called “alternative” media outlets such as the taz (which has close links to the Greens) are loudly demanding military action against Russia, outdoing one another with menacing attacks on Russian President Vladimir Putin who they describe as a new Hitler and aggressor.

This propaganda campaign, reminiscent of the conformist press of totalitarian dictatorships, has so far had a limited effect. Many readers are repulsed by the campaign and have responded angrily. This is reflected in the letters pages of newspaper and online comment pages.

[link to www.wsws.org]
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
GO Putin5a5a5a
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
page 2205 and still no invasion. damn
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8527960


you could say the western powers have subversively invaded the power structures within ukraine. their is your invasion.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36255184


hesright
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04/05/2014 07:13 PM
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
You have the US govt mentality of "the more I say something the truer it becomes"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 55875488

Good point - and actually it does work. It is the nature of human psychology. That's why I sometimes repeat myself and respond to the same claim multiple times.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Yup, but truth is...some like to blame Sun_Dancer being the shill when its so obvious who the real shills are...lol.

Sun_Dancer keep providing the common sense answers. You're well appreciated by the majority.
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
This thread always turns into a flame war when nothing of significance is occurring.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
Euromaidan PR @EuromaidanPR
#Yatsenyuk addressed EU, US on reverse gas supplies to #Ukraine. Energy Minister to discuss further in Brussels 8Apr. [link to kmu.gov.ua]
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
Euromaidan PR @EuromaidanPR
#Yatsenyuk addressed EU, US on reverse gas supplies to #Ukraine. Energy Minister to discuss further in Brussels 8Apr. [link to kmu.gov.ua]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 52399398


the legalese of this has to be analyzed. i think they want russia to cut the gas or be forced to write up new contracts with not only ukraine, but european importers.
Sun_dancer

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04/05/2014 07:36 PM
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
...

I submit it is not possible to hide moving 100,000 troops back and forth from the border in relatively densely populated Western Russia, because it would be exposed either by citizens, tourists, the countless Ukrainians who are living there and have cameras, the numerous overflights that have happened (and are indeed ongoing, with the cooperation of Russia), the several journalists from NBC, NY Times and elsewhere who have gone looking for these troops, or the countless satellites circling our planet with very sophisticated imaging (including thermal imaging) capabilities.

...
 Quoting: Sun_dancer

No one has said they are hiding.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203

[link to www.foxnews.com]
[link to online.wsj.com]

As to build-up:

[link to www.nytimes.com]
[link to news.yahoo.com]
[link to www.defenseone.com]
Sun_dancer
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
You deny reports without refuting them. Absence of evidence that you would accept is hardly good evidence of absence.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203

You're right, it is impossible to prove a negative. I cannot "prove" there are no Martians living in California, any more than I can prove that none of Germany, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Mexico has an arsenal of nuclear weapons. But this is not how things work in the world. If you accuse someone of something, you should provide evidence of it, or retract your accusation; but certainly you should not keep stirring the pot with accusations, particularly when it is leading to instability and hatred and increasing the risk of death and destruction.

I can also accuse you of having sex with children and burning cats alive - but if I have no proof, you would rightly call me a liar. To which I should respond, what - absence of proof is not proof of absence? Accusations demand proof, and as I noted above, if troops were really massed at the border, there would be proof, and lots of it.

These are straw man arguments. You can't just pick out the most extreme report from the most biased source to dismiss the whole subject. "Poised for invasion" is a phrase about intentions which we can agree that no one knows. Most of what you post is reasoned but this isn't.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203

Maybe you haven't been on this thread but we were getting multiple accusations of this "massing", "ready to invade in x hours", etc. a day, from NATO and US, from different media. For example (look for term "poised"):

[link to www.cnn.com]
[link to www.nytimes.com]
[link to www.debka.com]
[link to www.haaretz.com]

I just called b.s. on it, given there was no evidence and, if it were true, evidence would be readily available. Remember: it is an accusation of an ongoing event, not some historical event.

Last Edited by Sun_dancer on 04/05/2014 07:42 PM
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
Sorry to split my post into 3 - it kept getting rejected and I couldn't figure out which link was the problem ... [ EDIT - was rt DOT com links, the URL shortener having problems ... ]

The Russian statements have actually been very careful and qualified on this subject. If it were really a complete fabrication why wouldn't they say so?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203


OK, please explain to me the "careful wording" in the following statements which are consistent with the allegations of troops being massed, whether or not poised for invasion:

[link to russiatoday.com]
[link to www.straitstimes.com]
[link to russiatoday.com]
[link to www.theglobeandmail.com]
[link to russiatoday.com]

See also [link to www.nbcnews.com]

Last Edited by Sun_dancer on 04/05/2014 07:52 PM
Sun_dancer
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
page 2205 and still no invasion. damn
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8527960


you could say the western powers have subversively invaded the power structures within ukraine. their is your invasion.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36255184


hesright and they got their gold and whatever else they looted out of Officals homes, including docs
Anonymous Coward
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04/05/2014 07:51 PM
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
You have the US govt mentality of "the more I say something the truer it becomes"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 55875488

Good point - and actually it does work. It is the nature of human psychology. That's why I sometimes repeat myself and respond to the same claim multiple times.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Yup, but truth is...some like to blame Sun_Dancer being the shill when its so obvious who the real shills are...lol.

Sun_Dancer keep providing the common sense answers. You're well appreciated by the majority.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48304213


I second that. Plus people keep ignoring Sun Dancer has the Ukrainian friend.
Anonymous Coward
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04/05/2014 07:56 PM
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
...

I submit it is not possible to hide moving 100,000 troops back and forth from the border in relatively densely populated Western Russia, because it would be exposed either by citizens, tourists, the countless Ukrainians who are living there and have cameras, the numerous overflights that have happened (and are indeed ongoing, with the cooperation of Russia), the several journalists from NBC, NY Times and elsewhere who have gone looking for these troops, or the countless satellites circling our planet with very sophisticated imaging (including thermal imaging) capabilities.

...
 Quoting: Sun_dancer

No one has said they are hiding.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203

[link to www.foxnews.com]
[link to online.wsj.com]

As to build-up:

[link to www.nytimes.com]
[link to news.yahoo.com]
[link to www.defenseone.com]
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


From the FOX link another source said they're "hiding"
Wall Street Journal reported late Friday that Russian troops are concealing

It's really funny how now words are being twisted. Also numerous twitters having been posted in here suggesting they're hiding in the forests (that was my favorite, hide 100,000 soldiers in a forest) and people arguing that sounds possible because why would they stand in plain sight.

Keep going Sun Dancer you're doing a great job at making sure the facts are being kept straight.

Nobody said they were hiding - s226 Nice try!
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387




Keep going Sun Dancer you're doing a great job at making sure the facts are being kept straight.




hesright
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
...

I submit it is not possible to hide moving 100,000 troops back and forth from the border in relatively densely populated Western Russia, because it would be exposed either by citizens, tourists, the countless Ukrainians who are living there and have cameras, the numerous overflights that have happened (and are indeed ongoing, with the cooperation of Russia), the several journalists from NBC, NY Times and elsewhere who have gone looking for these troops, or the countless satellites circling our planet with very sophisticated imaging (including thermal imaging) capabilities.

...
 Quoting: Sun_dancer

No one has said they are hiding.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203

[link to www.foxnews.com]
[link to online.wsj.com]

...
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


From the FOX link another source said they're "hiding"
Wall Street Journal reported late Friday that Russian troops are concealing

...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56476482

And of course it was raised numerous times on this thread, here are two mentions:
Thread: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387 (Page 2041)
Thread: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387 (Page 2023)

There are also these posts about some of the other issues:
Thread: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387 (Page 2013)
Thread: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387 (Page 1865)

Plenty more if you want to take a trip down memory lane on this thread ....
Sun_dancer
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
Sun dancer you sure pissed off some hotshots here. They hate cause you search for the EVIDENCE! Keep the good job!
Anonymous Coward
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04/05/2014 08:35 PM
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
...

I submit it is not possible to hide moving 100,000 troops back and forth from the border in relatively densely populated Western Russia, because it would be exposed either by citizens, tourists, the countless Ukrainians who are living there and have cameras, the numerous overflights that have happened (and are indeed ongoing, with the cooperation of Russia), the several journalists from NBC, NY Times and elsewhere who have gone looking for these troops, or the countless satellites circling our planet with very sophisticated imaging (including thermal imaging) capabilities.

...
 Quoting: Sun_dancer

No one has said they are hiding.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203

[link to www.foxnews.com]
[link to online.wsj.com]

As to build-up:

[link to www.nytimes.com]
[link to news.yahoo.com]
[link to www.defenseone.com]
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


I agree that those stories document that there were claims of concealment. Of course, if it were feasible then it would be expected. Not sure the claim was that they were all hiding though.
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
You deny reports without refuting them. Absence of evidence that you would accept is hardly good evidence of absence.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203

You're right, it is impossible to prove a negative. I cannot "prove" there are no Martians living in California, any more than I can prove that none of Germany, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Mexico has an arsenal of nuclear weapons. But this is not how things work in the world. If you accuse someone of something, you should provide evidence of it, or retract your accusation; but certainly you should not keep stirring the pot with accusations, particularly when it is leading to instability and hatred and increasing the risk of death and destruction.

I can also accuse you of having sex with children and burning cats alive - but if I have no proof, you would rightly call me a liar. To which I should respond, what - absence of proof is not proof of absence? Accusations demand proof, and as I noted above, if troops were really massed at the border, there would be proof, and lots of it.

These are straw man arguments. You can't just pick out the most extreme report from the most biased source to dismiss the whole subject. "Poised for invasion" is a phrase about intentions which we can agree that no one knows. Most of what you post is reasoned but this isn't.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203

Maybe you haven't been on this thread but we were getting multiple accusations of this "massing", "ready to invade in x hours", etc. a day, from NATO and US, from different media. For example (look for term "poised"):

[link to www.cnn.com]
[link to www.nytimes.com]
[link to www.debka.com]
[link to www.haaretz.com]

I just called b.s. on it, given there was no evidence and, if it were true, evidence would be readily available. Remember: it is an accusation of an ongoing event, not some historical event.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Of course the western press was full of implications as to Russia's intent. The issue is more about capabilities and response times and that part of the story remains in dispute.
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
Sorry to split my post into 3 - it kept getting rejected and I couldn't figure out which link was the problem ... [ EDIT - was rt DOT com links, the URL shortener having problems ... ]

The Russian statements have actually been very careful and qualified on this subject. If it were really a complete fabrication why wouldn't they say so?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203


OK, please explain to me the "careful wording" in the following statements which are consistent with the allegations of troops being massed, whether or not poised for invasion:

[link to russiatoday.com]
[link to www.straitstimes.com]
[link to russiatoday.com]
[link to www.theglobeandmail.com]
[link to russiatoday.com]

See also [link to www.nbcnews.com]
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


If you get away from the characterizations and headlines in those stories the actual statements are not so sweeping. I did see one off-the-record quote from someone who said it was all overblown but the specific statements I saw denied intent, said international norms were being satisfied, and claimed that inspectors had been allowed in and found nothing out of line. None of those are categorical with respect to the capabilities, numbers, and placement of troops and equipment. That is the key here. You seem to think that has been rendered ridiculous. I see the situation as far more ambiguous. It isn't because I trust western media or spokesmen either. It is simply inherent in the situation.
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
This is eastern europe, where we bargain about eveyfuckingthing. Especially about NEW price. And you are not here but there, wherever the fuck that is, jerky. if you wanna buy shit from Russians at their price.,.go for it but don't imagine that everyone has to be you..hm..or do imagine it, what do I care.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56470551


Well then, just go with that. Buy your natural gas from the US. I am sure they can just fly that stuff over on the space shuttle. lol

I just don't care.
 Quoting: steelseries

I find it interesting that Russia and China have agreed more or less for gas sales but putting the infrastructure in place (pipelines) will take years, even though Russia already has pipelines leading up to its extraction points.

Yet some people think that USA can take shale gas (for which there are currently insufficient pipelines), transfer them to yet-not-existing liquefaction plants (which take very long to build, particularly if one complies with environmental regulations, including environmental impact studies), transfer that on yet-not-existing LNG carriers to Europe (of which quite many would be required, which would take quite some time to build, since current demand has ship-builders working at full capacity, so you would first need to construct new ship-building facilities), and then transfer all that to Europe.

And all of this massive investment would be lost, if the tensions die down.

whatever
 Quoting: Sun_dancer

Please read this Sun and comment on it. I'm really interested how you might see this. Also the term 'shale gas' are you talking about Canada's or about Nat Gas which is being pursued aggressively in the states.
[link to www.presstv.ir]
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04/05/2014 09:27 PM
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387

Please read this Sun and comment on it. I'm really interested how you might see this. Also the term 'shale gas' are you talking about Canada's or about Nat Gas which is being pursued aggressively in the states.
[link to www.presstv.ir]


[link to www.youtube.com]
Not the best source but great illustration starting at 1:12
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
The newest Ukrainian tanks "Oplot" are ready for the battle.
They are one of the best modern tanks in the world.



[link to www.army-technology.com]

The Oplot-M main battle tank (MBT) is developed by Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau (KMDB) for the Ukrainian Armed Forces. The MBT can destroy ground-based and low-flying, low-speed aerial targets, while offering superior protection and high mobility for troops.
DawaSatso
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 55875488

Please read this Sun and comment on it. I'm really interested how you might see this. Also the term 'shale gas' are you talking about Canada's or about Nat Gas which is being pursued aggressively in the states.
[link to www.presstv.ir]


[link to www.youtube.com]
Not the best source but great illustration starting at 1:12


Good to hear it. Really is.
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
Strobe Talbott ‏@strobetalbott · 10h
Worrisome signals some key Euros are not just treating Crimea as fait accompli to be accepted but resigned to annexation of Transnistria.
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
@euromaidanpr: Just in: #Russia FM threatens #Latvia to "protect #Russian minorities" in the country
@thedailyfreedom | PR News
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
@michaeldweiss: Bad sign: Russian FM says Ukrainians are writing to Moscow asking for "protection". Agitprop that precedes invasion:
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
The newest Ukrainian tanks "Oplot" are ready for the battle.
They are one of the best modern tanks in the world.



[link to www.army-technology.com]

The Oplot-M main battle tank (MBT) is developed by Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau (KMDB) for the Ukrainian Armed Forces. The MBT can destroy ground-based and low-flying, low-speed aerial targets, while offering superior protection and high mobility for troops.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56479015


youd like that wouldnt you?
Sun_dancer

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04/05/2014 10:04 PM
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
...

Maybe you haven't been on this thread but we were getting multiple accusations of this "massing", "ready to invade in x hours", etc. a day, from NATO and US, from different media. For example (look for term "poised"):

[link to www.cnn.com]
[link to www.nytimes.com]
[link to www.debka.com]
[link to www.haaretz.com]

I just called b.s. on it, given there was no evidence and, if it were true, evidence would be readily available. Remember: it is an accusation of an ongoing event, not some historical event.
 Quoting: Sun_dancer


Of course the western press was full of implications as to Russia's intent. The issue is more about capabilities and response times and that part of the story remains in dispute.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56469203

Really what this is about from my perspective is agitating people, being provocative, increasing tension. I think whoever is behind the propaganda - whoever is telling the proven sycophant Rasmussen to make these statements - is trying to incite hatred and confrontation. The question for me is, why? Well, we may find out the way they end up channeling the hatred they are creating. Or they may decide, they have made their point and call off the dogs.

Why do I think it is purely aggravating? Because everyone knows Russia can invade Ukraine. They in no way have to be poised on the border - everyone knows they can be, whether it takes 1 day or 3 days or 5 days. In any case nobody can or will do anything about it - if they were, they would have done something long ago.

So this is just games. And the fact that the troops really aren't there, that is the key to my opinion that what is happening is a planned, scientific program of radicalization of particularly Ukrainians but also of Europeans and Americans against Russia.

Whoever is making these policy decisions, I am completely against them. I want to live in a world of peace and understanding. I don't want to live in a world where some small cabal centered around Washington, D.C. and Brussels can radicalize the world and start conflicts at their whim, just because they decide to spout lies to manipulate the masses.

[ EDIT: Add to this that I think in general the agenda of this cabal - call them TPTB or whatever - is not my agenda, at all. And in particular, I wish very very very much that Ukraine does not descend into civil war - but that is where I think this cabal is pushing them. ]

Last Edited by Sun_dancer on 04/05/2014 10:07 PM
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
I think Sun is biased like hell, but he keeps the thread alive. 5a
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Re: UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387
I think Sun is biased like hell, but he keeps the thread alive. 5a
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33376107


yeah he/she is like the only one posting. they should just rename it the vladimir appreciation page. All sundancer, all the time.


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