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Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts

 
K Hall (OP)

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08/29/2014 12:20 PM

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
Why is a Plasma physicist on the Team?

 Quoting: TheWatcher-Anonymous Hero


Matt Taylor ( tattoo guy ) is actually the most senior scientist on the Rosetta mission ( he is the project scientist ) Up till now it has been operation's job to get Rosetta into position, now the science starts to come to the fore. He has actually been told off for saying that the science doesn't start until January. His specialism is plasma physics and January is the time he expects the solar wind's interaction with the comet to start to produce interesting results.

When the comet is sufficiently close to the Sun, UV light starts to cause the comets gasses in the outer coma: CO, CO2, ammonia, methane and water to photodisociate and photoionise ( not all gasses photodisociate or ionise ) to form clouds of ionised plasma. The movement of this plasma generates a magnetic field which in turn interacts with the hot plasma of the solar wind, and its magnetic field, forming the shape of the coma and ion tail. Recently it has been discovered that interactions between the coma gases and the solar wind were generating soft x-rays. So comets are very interesting and pretty complex in terms of plasma physics.

Matt Taylor is very relived that Rosetta woke up in January because in his words " If the spacecraft had not woken up, there would be no science to do and the role of project scientist would be redundant." and besides he would have gone through all this pain for nothing.



[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

K
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
K Hall (OP)

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08/30/2014 11:11 AM

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
Is electric comet a deliberate scam ?

I have written here before about the electric comet idea and how it would relate to electrical discharge events.

Thread: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts (Page 2)

And about the differences between what electric comet people say a comet is like and what we have already found out.

( following three posts )
Thread: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts (Page 7)

I haven't yet looked at the people selling electric comet products and merchandise, and there is something very odd going on.

As far as I can see, regardless of whether electric comet is true or not, there are three positions electric comet marketers can take.

1 That electric comet is science fiction and they will market their products as such. I have seen no evidence to suggest that they want to be treated as anything other than serious promoters of a scientific conjecture.

which leaves us with a choice of the last two options:

2 That the electric comet industry sincerely believes all their ideas are factually correct.

3 That electric comet salesmen know their ideas are a fiction but cynically promote them as true in order to sell workshop and conference tickets, DVDs , books, numbered prints, posters, t-shits and ask for donations from naive and trusting people.

So one thing we can say for certain about the electric comet idea is that comets are supposed to have a potential difference to other bodies in the solar system, causing long lightning like electric arcs which have a destructive effect on the comet and anything coming near it.

"... it [ the comet ] will begin to discharge to the plasma surrounding it, producing the familiar bright coma and tail. Comet jets are electric discharges to the nucleus - the jets electrically machine the comet surface in a process similar to the industrial process known as spark discharge machining." Michael Goodspeed [link to www.thunderbolts.info]

"The observed jets of comets are electric arc discharges to the nucleus, producing “electrical discharge machining” (EDM) of the surface. The excavated material is accelerated into space along the jets’ observed filamentary arcs. "

"intermittent and wandering arcs erode the surface and burn it black, leaving the distinctive scarring patterns of electric discharges."

"The jets' explode from cometary nuclei at supersonic speeds and retain their coherent structure for hundreds of thousands of miles. The collimation of such jets is a well-documented attribute of plasma discharge."
Michael Gmirkin [link to www.thunderbolts.info]

Which is all fine if that is an expression of their sincere belief, almost certainly wrong, but not dishonest.

So if these views are standard electric comet belief then applying the principle that theories make strong predictions we will see the electric comet movement making quantifiable predictions about spacecraft electrically interacting with the comet. That is were things start to look very strange.

If we go back to the deep impact mission to comet 9P/Tempel we would expect, given the above quotes, for the electric universe to make predictions along the lines of "A great long discharge arc of electricity will leap out of the comet towards the impactor". Strangely, instead, they said "The most obvious would be a flash shortly before impact." Well we already knew that half a tonne of spacecraft impacting the comet at 10 km/s would release tremendous amounts of kinetic energy ( 19 Gigajoules ) in the form of heat and light and excavated material. So why no hundreds of km long electric arc, after all the electric jets are a "coherent structure for hundreds of thousands of miles"?

Moving on to the Philae landing we had a prediction on the thuderblogs site that said that ESA would find the landing to be tricky, that was it, no mention of electricity as far as I remember. Unfortunately that long blog entry seems to have been deleted now but we are left with some other predictions, namely:

"The presence of unexpected electric fields within the coma and/or close to the comet nucleus, possibly even disrupting the anticipated landing on the surface. This could occur on or after touch down because the sharp metallic edges of the spacecraft make an ideal focus for a diffuse plasma discharge, which would disrupt communications and possibly interfere with spacecraft electronics." David Talbott and Wallace Thornhill [link to www.thunderbolts.info]

That's it ?? Communications may be disrupted, something which happens all the time to spacecraft such as Rosetta and Philae. Not all of the electronics may work perfectly ? Has there ever been a mission where they did. What the hell happened to the thousand of km long plasma discharges that would blast the spacecraft to atoms. Where are the wandering arcs that burn the surface black and vaporise the rock to make craters ?? Why haven't the electronics been fritzed by these electric discharges weeks ago.

Why are the electric universe predictions of the effects on Philae so weak as to be the same as we would expect if there was no such thing as an electric comet ? In other words exactly the same problems that ESA believe they may face with no mention of devastating and destructive lightning bolts leaping from the surface to obliterate the spacecraft!

If you have turned over some of your money to these people are you f***ing furious, because I would be.

K

Last Edited by K Hall on 08/30/2014 12:34 PM
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
K Hall (OP)

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08/30/2014 12:52 PM

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
If you are very keen ( and are available at the right time ) There is a Google hang out on Tuesday at 14:00 UTC with some Rosetta scientists to discuss the Philae landing sites. Here are the details.

Tue, 2 Sep, 15:00 - 16:00 ( BST )
Hangouts On Air – Broadcast for free

Join us to talk about the possible landing sites on comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko for Rosetta's lander Philae.

The Hangout will also include a live draw for participants who took part in our 'Rosetta, are we there yet?' photo contest – watch to see if you win ESA swag!

Our hosts will be joined by:
Fred Jansen - Rosetta Mission Manager and/or Matt Taylor - Rosetta Project Scientist [TBC]
Andrea Accomazzo - Rosetta Flight Director
Barbara Cozzoni and/or Valentina Samodelov – Philae Operations Engineer, +DLR, German Aerospace Center [TBC]

Send us your questions before or during the hangout by posting a comment on this event - or on Twitter using

#AskRosetta

[link to plus.google.com (secure)]

K
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
K Hall (OP)

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08/31/2014 06:19 AM

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
Picking up dust..


One of the active instruments on Rosetta is GIADA the Grain Impact Analyser and Dust Accumulator. Its job is to measure the size and velocity of dust grains in the immediate vicinity of 67P's nucleus. The first detection of dust with this instrument was on the first of this month. ESA announced they picked up a single dust grain with the momentum of 9.8 x 10–10 (± 1 x 10–10) kg m/s. This gives us a pretty good indication that nothing about this comet is going to escape investigation over the coming year.

As the comet warms up it is expected that the dust velocity will increase. They also expect to be able to measure dust being blown back towards 67P by solar radiation pressure. Another important job GIADA has is to provide the data necessary to estimate the ratio of dust to gas in the coma and therefore understand the composition of the nucleus itself.

[link to blogs.esa.int]

[link to sci.esa.int]

K
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
TheWatcher-Anonymous Hero

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09/01/2014 03:55 AM

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
Why is a Plasma physicist on the Team?

 Quoting: TheWatcher-Anonymous Hero


Matt Taylor ( tattoo guy ) is actually the most senior scientist on the Rosetta mission ( he is the project scientist ) Up till now it has been operation's job to get Rosetta into position, now the science starts to come to the fore. He has actually been told off for saying that the science doesn't start until January. His specialism is plasma physics and January is the time he expects the solar wind's interaction with the comet to start to produce interesting results.

When the comet is sufficiently close to the Sun, UV light starts to cause the comets gasses in the outer coma: CO, CO2, ammonia, methane and water to photodisociate and photoionise ( not all gasses photodisociate or ionise ) to form clouds of ionised plasma. The movement of this plasma generates a magnetic field which in turn interacts with the hot plasma of the solar wind, and its magnetic field, forming the shape of the coma and ion tail. Recently it has been discovered that interactions between the coma gases and the solar wind were generating soft x-rays. So comets are very interesting and pretty complex in terms of plasma physics.

Matt Taylor is very relived that Rosetta woke up in January because in his words " If the spacecraft had not woken up, there would be no science to do and the role of project scientist would be redundant." and besides he would have gone through all this pain for nothing.



[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

K
 Quoting: K Hall


Let him know I am enjoying the show, and I hope he has 'fun' with ROSINA.
K Hall (OP)

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09/01/2014 05:17 AM

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
How do you weigh a comet...


I was going to post this a while ago, anyway here goes. Rosetta is currently performing a kind of triangular orbit around comet 67P. The idea behind this is to estimate the mass of the comet in order to be able to establish a low elliptical orbit. Here is a diagram I will refer to.

[link to i.imgur.com]

This diagram is a simplified and flattened 2D view of the orbit. To get a better idea of how Rosetta is flying ahead of the comet have a look at this video ( I know, this one again )



[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

As Rosetta flies each of the triangular legs, which take around 88 hours, the gravitational attraction of 67P very slightly bends the spacecraft's trajectory towards the comet. In the diagram Vi is Rosetta's velocity as it turns onto each leg. Vr is the resultant velocity as it is bent into an arc and Vg is the velocity towards the comet, the result of the gravitational attraction.

Gravity is an extremely weak force. When Rosetta is 100 km from the 10 trillion kg comet, its acceleration towards it is only 6.7E-8 ms-2 and over the three and a half days of each leg that gives Rosetta a velocity towards 67P of less than 2 cm per second in total.

This tiny velocity is measured by a Doppler shift in the radio frequency of the signal from Rosetta and was determined by the radio sciences investigation team ( RSI ).

[link to sci.esa.int]

We are all familiar with the Doppler effect from the drop in pitch of an emergency vehicle siren as it passes us. This guy explains it well.



[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

The waves coming from Rosetta are radio waves in the X -band frequency range, 8 to 12 billion cycles per second ( Ghz ). When calculating the Doppler shift in frequency of radio waves we have to compare the relative motion being measured to the speed of light. 2cm per second is pretty slow compared to the speed of light and so the maximum frequency shift is less than 0.6 Hz or one 15 billionth of the carrier frequency.

Add to that fact that this movement will not be pointed toward Earth so the engineers will be left to measure a smaller frequency shift. Look at the other relative movements to see how this tiny motion of 0.02 m/s could be swamped. On the Diagram, Rosetta's initial velocity is 0.3 m/s ( Vi ) but it is orbiting a comet which is approaching the Sun at 16100 m/s ( Vc ) The Earth is orbiting the Sun at 30000 m/s ( Veo ) The Earth's tangential velocity at the equator due to its rotation is 466 m/s ( Ver ). Even the speed of the radio telescope dish slewing towards Rosetta exceeds the 0.02 m/s of Vg.

[link to theskylive.com]

Here is a paper describing an even smaller velocity change they measured from a tiny frequency shift from asteroid Lutetia. ( 20 pages pdf )

[link to scripts.mit.edu]

At the same time, in order to be able to navigate the spacecraft close to the comet, ESA's flight dynamics and operations teams have also independently determined the mass and gravity parameters. These values fall within the same range as those derived by the RSI team.

[link to blogs.esa.int]

K

Last Edited by K Hall on 09/01/2014 05:24 AM
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
74444

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09/01/2014 01:04 PM
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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
Awesome thread.
K Hall (OP)

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09/02/2014 04:10 AM

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
Awesome thread.
 Quoting: 74444


Glad you are enjoying it.

At 14:00 UTC ( 16:00 CEST 10:00 EDT ), a little under 9 hours from now, there will be a google hangout with the mission scientists.

[link to plus.google.com (secure)]

Discussing landing site selection. I won't be able to do this. If anyone can make it why not report here thanks. The details are as follows:

Join us to talk about the possible landing sites on comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko for Rosetta's lander Philae.

The Hangout will also include a live draw for participants who took part in our 'Rosetta, are we there yet?' photo contest – watch to see if you win ESA swag!

Our hosts will be joined by:
Fred Jansen - Rosetta Mission Manager and/or Matt Taylor - Rosetta Project Scientist [TBC]
Andrea Accomazzo - Rosetta Flight Director
Barbara Cozzoni and/or Valentina Samodelov – Philae Operations Engineer, +DLR, German Aerospace Center [TBC]

Send us your questions before or during the hangout by posting a comment on this event - or on Twitter using #AskRosetta

K

Last Edited by K Hall on 09/02/2014 04:19 AM
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
TheWatcher-Anonymous Hero

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09/02/2014 05:11 AM

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
I still have a concern about what surface the lander will be landing on: Ice? Rock? Frozen CO2? ..Partially frozen CO2?

What impact will the landing surface have on the mission?
Incidentally...is there a camera onboard the lander??
K Hall (OP)

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09/03/2014 04:07 AM

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
Here is a recording of yesterday's Google hangout with the Rosetta mission scientists.



[link to www.youtube.com]

Participants

Fred Jansen - Rosetta Mission Manager
Matt Taylor - Rosetta Project Scientist
Andrea Accomazzo - Rosetta Flight Director
Barbara Cozzoni – Philae Operations Engineer, DLR
Valentina Samodelov – Philae Operations Engineer, DLR

+ a couple of media people

I will comment on this and The Watcher's question a little later.

K

Last Edited by K Hall on 09/03/2014 04:58 AM
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
K Hall (OP)

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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
I still have a concern about what surface the lander will be landing on: Ice? Rock? Frozen CO2? ..Partially frozen CO2?
What impact will the landing surface have on the mission?
 Quoting: TheWatcher-Anonymous Hero


You are in good company, the Philae lander team are concerned too. You can see in the above video, at around 37 minutes, Valentina Samodelov answers a question about the landing systems and surface composition.

If I can mix up what we know with my own speculation:

My estimate for the comets bulk density is around 0.5 g cm-3. That is about the same as hard packed snow or pine wood ( wooden comet conspiracy ? ), that is roughly in line with previous comet estimates. That would mean that comets are not rocky, iron rich asteroids, neither are they wispy "cigarette ash" clouds of dust. We know that comets contain large amounts of silicate dust and large amounts of water ice. The bulk density would suggest that there are also empty spaces in the comet although we don't yet know if they are the gaps between dust grains or larger pockets and hollows, or both.

The VIRTIS and MIRO instruments have returned some interesting results. VIRTIS can measure the surface temperature and MIRO can see for several tens of cm below the surface. What ESA has found is that large areas of the surface of 67P seem to be blanketed in a high porosity / low thermal inertia material. This could maybe be described as dust ( cometary regolith ), that would seem to be consistent with what OSIRIS is seeing.

In other places ( the neck ) there is a lower temperature, higher thermal inertia material, which may be a dust/ice frozen mixture, maybe that's what these cliffs are.

[link to www.esa.int]

In terms of landing in dust, or being covered in dust, Philae has two different battery systems that will keep the lander going long enough to complete the primary science mission, but if it is going to survive for weeks on the surface it will need to draw power from its solar arrays. I don't know how much science it can do if it disappears up to its aerial in dust !

You are also correct to point out that Philae may land on an icy patch that sublimates away causing problems too. I think that was mentioned in the landing site selection process.

[link to www.esa.int]

From 25 minutes on this video



[link to www.youtube.com]

Incidentally...is there a camera onboard the lander??
 Quoting: TheWatcher-Anonymous Hero


Yes, there is the ROLIS camera which points downward and will be imaging the comet as Philae approaches its landing site and "stereo panoramic images of areas sampled by other instruments." ( but just the area under and adacent to Philae I believe ) There are also 6 small CIVA cameras that will provide a panoramic view of Philae's landing site.



[link to www.youtube.com]

K

I will have a go at estimating the landing velocity and post it here.
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
Reality420

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09/03/2014 10:21 AM
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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
Excellent and informative thread - 5*

Is electric comet a deliberate scam ?

<snip a lot of good stuff>

Moving on to the Philae landing we had a prediction on the thuderblogs site that said that ESA would find the landing to be tricky, that was it, no mention of electricity as far as I remember. Unfortunately that long blog entry seems to have been deleted now but we are left with some other predictions, namely:

"The presence of unexpected electric fields within the coma and/or close to the comet nucleus, possibly even disrupting the anticipated landing on the surface. This could occur on or after touch down because the sharp metallic edges of the spacecraft make an ideal focus for a diffuse plasma discharge, which would disrupt communications and possibly interfere with spacecraft electronics." David Talbott and Wallace Thornhill [link to www.thunderbolts.info]

That's it ?? Communications may be disrupted, something which happens all the time to spacecraft such as Rosetta and Philae. Not all of the electronics may work perfectly ? Has there ever been a mission where they did. What the hell happened to the thousand of km long plasma discharges that would blast the spacecraft to atoms. Where are the wandering arcs that burn the surface black and vaporise the rock to make craters ?? Why haven't the electronics been fritzed by these electric discharges weeks ago.

Why are the electric universe predictions of the effects on Philae so weak as to be the same as we would expect if there was no such thing as an electric comet ? In other words exactly the same problems that ESA believe they may face with no mention of devastating and destructive lightning bolts leaping from the surface to obliterate the spacecraft!

If you have turned over some of your money to these people are you f***ing furious, because I would be.

K
 Quoting: K Hall


Yep. That's it. That's all they've ever offered pre-event. They aren't very good at prediction, but they are crackerjack at postdiction as described by your recap of the Deep Impact mission where DI wasn't destroyed by Giant Space Welding Arcs™.

This time they are predicting 'Something New Will Be Found'™ and if it is and it involves the words "new", "unusual", "unknown", "electric", "magnetic", etc. they will declare VICTORY.
Why, it may even involve troubles in the mission.
If there are any troubles in the mission, they will declare VICTORY™ because they predicted them.
Transmitter failure? - EC Victorious!
Computer glitch? - EC Victorious!
Any failure or glitch? - EC Victorious!
Giant Space Welding Arcs™? ... errrrrr, ignore that one.

I mean, it's not like the Rosetta Mission was sent to a comet to discover something new, was it? Scientists already know everything about comets.
They never expect to find anything New™. All those instruments are on there only for the weight.
The Rosetta mission wasn't sent to discover anything new, it is just scientist's way of wasting a pile of excess budget monies giving a lot of expensive hardware a nice vacation trip to a comet.

It takes real Outside-the-Box Thinkers like the Thunderdolts to predict Something New Will Be Discovered as, obviously, the mainstream scientists are oblivious to this possibility.

Have fun.


R.
kOOks lie. Constantly. It's part of the job description.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.
-- attributed to Thomas Jefferson

"Reality420 has a sick blood lust.
His attacks are calculated and well
Planned
in advance."
-- Sissyboy crying that I'm too knowledgeable and prepared for him to debate, leaving no option but to ban me and place me on his "enemies list".
Reality420

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09/03/2014 10:43 AM
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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
I still have a concern about what surface the lander will be landing on: Ice? Rock? Frozen CO2? ..Partially frozen CO2?
What impact will the landing surface have on the mission?
 Quoting: TheWatcher-Anonymous Hero


You are in good company, the Philae lander team are concerned too. You can see in the above video, at around 37 minutes, Valentina Samodelov answers a question about the landing systems and surface composition.

If I can mix up what we know with my own speculation:

My estimate for the comets bulk density is around 0.5 g cm-3. That is about the same as hard packed snow or pine wood ( wooden comet conspiracy ? ), that is roughly in line with previous comet estimates. That would mean that comets are not rocky, iron rich asteroids, neither are they wispy "cigarette ash" clouds of dust. We know that comets contain large amounts of silicate dust and large amounts of water ice. The bulk density would suggest that there are also empty spaces in the comet although we don't yet know if they are the gaps between dust grains or larger pockets and hollows, or both.

The VIRTIS and MIRO instruments have returned some interesting results. VIRTIS can measure the surface temperature and MIRO can see for several tens of cm below the surface. What ESA has found is that large areas of the surface of 67P seem to be blanketed in a high porosity / low thermal inertia material. This could maybe be described as dust ( cometary regolith ), that would seem to be consistent with what OSIRIS is seeing.

In other places ( the neck ) there is a lower temperature, higher thermal inertia material, which may be a dust/ice frozen mixture, maybe that's what these cliffs are.

[link to www.esa.int]

In terms of landing in dust, or being covered in dust, Philae has two different battery systems that will keep the lander going long enough to complete the primary science mission, but if it is going to survive for weeks on the surface it will need to draw power from its solar arrays. I don't know how much science it can do if it disappears up to its aerial in dust !

You are also correct to point out that Philae may land on an icy patch that sublimates away causing problems too. I think that was mentioned in the landing site selection process.

[link to www.esa.int]

From 25 minutes on this video



[link to www.youtube.com]

Incidentally...is there a camera onboard the lander??
 Quoting: TheWatcher-Anonymous Hero


Yes, there is the ROLIS camera which points downward and will be imaging the comet as Philae approaches its landing site and "stereo panoramic images of areas sampled by other instruments." ( but just the area under and adacent to Philae I believe ) There are also 6 small CIVA cameras that will provide a panoramic view of Philae's landing site.



[link to www.youtube.com]

K

I will have a go at estimating the landing velocity and post it here.
 Quoting: K Hall


It will be interesting to see what is discovered about the physical properties of the comet.


Perhaps one of the better explanations of what cometary surfaces may be like that I've come across was along this line:

If you live in a snowy area a comet may be similar to the snowbank along the side of the road after there's been a long spell of clear weather.

The snow bank has gained a black crust on its surface from the melting/evaporating snow leaving behind the sand/ashes which were spread by the sanding trucks.

The only difference is that comets are thought to generally have a majority of dust/sand/gravel and a lot of empty air space in the snowy ices that make up the rest. Also, comets may have an organic tar-like residue from the small %age of organics they contain.

It should be interesting to learn what Rosetta discovers.

Have fun.


R.
kOOks lie. &c., &c.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.
-- attributed to Thomas Jefferson

"Reality420 has a sick blood lust.
His attacks are calculated and well
Planned
in advance."
-- Sissyboy crying that I'm too knowledgeable and prepared for him to debate, leaving no option but to ban me and place me on his "enemies list".
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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
Excellent and informative thread - 5*

Is electric comet a deliberate scam ?

<snip a lot of good stuff>

Moving on to the Philae landing we had a prediction on the thuderblogs site that said that ESA would find the landing to be tricky, that was it, no mention of electricity as far as I remember. Unfortunately that long blog entry seems to have been deleted now but we are left with some other predictions, namely:

"The presence of unexpected electric fields within the coma and/or close to the comet nucleus, possibly even disrupting the anticipated landing on the surface. This could occur on or after touch down because the sharp metallic edges of the spacecraft make an ideal focus for a diffuse plasma discharge, which would disrupt communications and possibly interfere with spacecraft electronics." David Talbott and Wallace Thornhill [link to www.thunderbolts.info]

That's it ?? Communications may be disrupted, something which happens all the time to spacecraft such as Rosetta and Philae. Not all of the electronics may work perfectly ? Has there ever been a mission where they did. What the hell happened to the thousand of km long plasma discharges that would blast the spacecraft to atoms. Where are the wandering arcs that burn the surface black and vaporise the rock to make craters ?? Why haven't the electronics been fritzed by these electric discharges weeks ago.

Why are the electric universe predictions of the effects on Philae so weak as to be the same as we would expect if there was no such thing as an electric comet ? In other words exactly the same problems that ESA believe they may face with no mention of devastating and destructive lightning bolts leaping from the surface to obliterate the spacecraft!

If you have turned over some of your money to these people are you f***ing furious, because I would be.

K
 Quoting: K Hall


Yep. That's it. That's all they've ever offered pre-event. They aren't very good at prediction, but they are crackerjack at postdiction as described by your recap of the Deep Impact mission where DI wasn't destroyed by Giant Space Welding Arcs™.

This time they are predicting 'Something New Will Be Found'™ and if it is and it involves the words "new", "unusual", "unknown", "electric", "magnetic", etc. they will declare VICTORY.
Why, it may even involve troubles in the mission.
If there are any troubles in the mission, they will declare VICTORY™ because they predicted them.
Transmitter failure? - EC Victorious!
Computer glitch? - EC Victorious!
Any failure or glitch? - EC Victorious!
Giant Space Welding Arcs™? ... errrrrr, ignore that one.

I mean, it's not like the Rosetta Mission was sent to a comet to discover something new, was it? Scientists already know everything about comets.
They never expect to find anything New™. All those instruments are on there only for the weight.
The Rosetta mission wasn't sent to discover anything new, it is just scientist's way of wasting a pile of excess budget monies giving a lot of expensive hardware a nice vacation trip to a comet.

It takes real Outside-the-Box Thinkers like the Thunderdolts to predict Something New Will Be Discovered as, obviously, the mainstream scientists are oblivious to this possibility.

Have fun.


R.
kOOks lie. Constantly. It's part of the job description.
 Quoting: Reality420


bc this
astrobanner2
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I mean, it's not like the Rosetta Mission was sent to a comet to discover something new, was it? Scientists already know everything about comets.
They never expect to find anything New™. All those instruments are on there only for the weight.
The Rosetta mission wasn't sent to discover anything new, it is just scientist's way of wasting a pile of excess budget monies giving a lot of expensive hardware a nice vacation trip to a comet.

 Quoting: Reality420


I have to say, I don't agree with this.
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I mean, it's not like the Rosetta Mission was sent to a comet to discover something new, was it? Scientists already know everything about comets.
They never expect to find anything New™. All those instruments are on there only for the weight.
The Rosetta mission wasn't sent to discover anything new, it is just scientist's way of wasting a pile of excess budget monies giving a lot of expensive hardware a nice vacation trip to a comet.

 Quoting: Reality420


I have to say, I don't agree with this.
 Quoting: TheWatcher-Anonymous Hero

Just put some <sarcasm> </sarcasm> tags around the quote and read it again.

It's the kind of R420's writing - he always forgets the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> tags. :)

.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
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Excellent and informative thread - 5*

Yep. That's it. That's all they've ever offered pre-event. They aren't very good at prediction, but they are crackerjack at postdiction as described by your recap of the Deep Impact mission where DI wasn't destroyed by Giant Space Welding Arcs™.

This time they are predicting 'Something New Will Be Found'™ and if it is and it involves the words "new", "unusual", "unknown", "electric", "magnetic", etc. they will declare VICTORY.
Why, it may even involve troubles in the mission.
If there are any troubles in the mission, they will declare VICTORY™ because they predicted them.
Transmitter failure? - EC Victorious!
Computer glitch? - EC Victorious!
Any failure or glitch? - EC Victorious!
Giant Space Welding Arcs™? ... errrrrr, ignore that one.

I mean, it's not like the Rosetta Mission was sent to a comet to discover something new, was it? Scientists already know everything about comets.
They never expect to find anything New™. All those instruments are on there only for the weight.
The Rosetta mission wasn't sent to discover anything new, it is just scientist's way of wasting a pile of excess budget monies giving a lot of expensive hardware a nice vacation trip to a comet.

It takes real Outside-the-Box Thinkers like the Thunderdolts to predict Something New Will Be Discovered as, obviously, the mainstream scientists are oblivious to this possibility.

Have fun.


R.
kOOks lie. Constantly. It's part of the job description.
 Quoting: Reality420


Glad you like the thread. I had always assumed that guys behind electric universe would actually believe in their stuff, but their unwillingness to make predictions about huge dielectric breakdown events makes me think otherwise now. I admit I knew very little about them and their stories compared to you.

It all looks so cynical and grubby now. They have a $750 workshop coming up to learn what skill I wonder? EU believers ( not marketers ) do look like cult members. It seems nothing can falsify their belief system, so a lack of lightning boltzz from 67P will not be a problem for them. I have had more than one conversation with them where I have asked simple questions about what EU means/implies/predicts, they have no idea but they do know they believe in it.

As far as I am concerned, there is one central axiom of electric comet and that is that comets hold and maintain huge charge differentials to other solar system bodies and that results in dramatic and obvious discharge events, no lesser proof will do. So I have calculated the pd necessary to make lightning boltzz today, based on field emission discharge in a high vacuum and the distance of the spacecraft to the comet. I stick that number in the thread title. No thudingbolts yet but we can only hope. By next week Rosetta will be within 30km of the surface.

It will be interesting to see what is discovered about the physical properties of the comet.


Perhaps one of the better explanations of what cometary surfaces may be like that I've come across was along this line:

If you live in a snowy area a comet may be similar to the snowbank along the side of the road after there's been a long spell of clear weather.

The snow bank has gained a black crust on its surface from the melting/evaporating snow leaving behind the sand/ashes which were spread by the sanding trucks.

The only difference is that comets are thought to generally have a majority of dust/sand/gravel and a lot of empty air space in the snowy ices that make up the rest. Also, comets may have an organic tar-like residue from the small %age of organics they contain.

It should be interesting to learn what Rosetta discovers.

Have fun.

R.
kOOks lie. &c., &c.
 Quoting: Reality420


Good analogy.

Its interesting to note that Whipple in his 1950 paper on 2P/Encke states; "Vaporization of the ices leaves an outer matrix of non-volatile insulating meteoric material" In other words the surface of comets are dry and dusty. So anyone who picked up the journalist phrase "dirty snowball" and expected to see an iceberg in space can't blame Fred Whipple.

[link to adsabs.harvard.edu]

As for the very dark organic residues, Fred Jansen in the talk this week described 67P as being "blacker than the blackest t-shirt you can buy in a shop".



[link to www.youtube.com]

The albedo is around 4%, about 1/3 that of the Moon. In the night sky of course 67P would still be bright but here is a mock up of it on the edge of Earth's atmosphere by day.

[link to i.imgur.com]

As for what Rosetta will add to the body of knowledge about comets, it's going to hugely expand, improve and correct our understanding. Although I suspect it won't have a happy ending for EC people.

K
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
K Hall (OP)

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It looks to me, looking out the hatch, that we are venting something. We are venting something out into the—into space.

Roger. We copy your venting.


Today's ( actually Tuesday's ) NAVCAM quartet is a beauty. At first sight it looks not much different to the others we have seen. Now pay close attention to the neck region in the lower two quarter frames.

[link to www.esa.int]

As Jim Lovell would say, we are venting something. That looks to me very much like material being lost from the nucleus into the comet's coma. The area is consistent with the bright cold region of the neck found by VIRTIS and OSIRIS during the approach and imaging of the coma.

[link to www.esa.int]

Speculate away !

Previous quartets of NAVCAM images have been stitched together by digital photographers in a game of one-upmanship. Here is a nice example from the last NAVCAM selection.

[link to www.raumfahrer.net (secure)]

She seems to have done Tuesday's image too. Although the "Jet" is not so obvious in this image.

[link to www.raumfahrer.net (secure)]

K
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
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It looks to me, looking out the hatch, that we are venting something. We are venting something out into the—into space.

Roger. We copy your venting.


Today's ( actually Tuesday's ) NAVCAM quartet is a beauty. At first sight it looks not much different to the others we have seen. Now pay close attention to the neck region in the lower two quarter frames.

[link to www.esa.int]

...

K
 Quoting: K Hall

OMG
Electric sparks are arising from the comet.
And, and and, ... they will hit Rosetta.
And, and and, ... they will hit the cameras.
And, and and, ... the lights will go out and no more images of 67P ....

LOL

I wouldn't be surprised if the electric comet tards jump on conclusions like the ones above.

.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
K Hall (OP)

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OMG
Electric sparks are arising from the comet.
And, and and, ... they will hit Rosetta.
And, and and, ... they will hit the cameras.
And, and and, ... the lights will go out and no more images of 67P ....

LOL

I wouldn't be surprised if the electric comet tards jump on conclusions like the ones above.

 Quoting: Hydra


Probably. Still waiting for giant lightning boltzz, they seem to be late, I would have thought they would have arrived by now. 1dunno1

Next month and November I expect GLP to go comet-tard crazy again with Siding Spring and then the Philae landing. Just look at the number of threads about 2014 RC today, ISON threads never really stopped.

Here is an enhanced version of this morning's picture. Gertrud has gone crazy with the unsharp mask so now everything looks like the film Alien. BTW, everyone, when you have clicked on the image for a zoom, there is a further level of zoom by clicking on the four arrow cross in the bottom right corner.

[link to www.raumfahrer.net (secure)]

Das hast du gut gemacht, Gertrud !

K

Last Edited by K Hall on 09/06/2014 09:20 AM
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
It looks to me, looking out the hatch, that we are venting something. We are venting something out into the—into space.

Roger. We copy your venting.


Today's ( actually Tuesday's ) NAVCAM quartet is a beauty. At first sight it looks not much different to the others we have seen. Now pay close attention to the neck region in the lower two quarter frames.

[link to www.esa.int]

As Jim Lovell would say, we are venting something. That looks to me very much like material being lost from the nucleus into the comet's coma. The area is consistent with the bright cold region of the neck found by VIRTIS and OSIRIS during the approach and imaging of the coma.

[link to www.esa.int]

Speculate away !

Previous quartets of NAVCAM images have been stitched together by digital photographers in a game of one-upmanship. Here is a nice example from the last NAVCAM selection.

[link to www.raumfahrer.net (secure)]

She seems to have done Tuesday's image too. Although the "Jet" is not so obvious in this image.

[link to www.raumfahrer.net (secure)]

K
 Quoting: K Hall


Sublimation from ice reserves in the neck of the comet, say it ain't so EU'ists!
astrobanner2
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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
"On the subject of stars, all investigations which are not ultimately reducible to simple visual observations are necessarily denied to us. While we can conceive of the possibility of determining their shapes, their sizes, and their motions, we shall never be able by any means to study their chemical composition or their mineralogical structure. Our knowledge concerning their gaseous envelopes is necessarily limited to their existence, size and refractive power, we shall not at all be able to determine their chemical composition or even their density. I regard any notion concerning the true mean temperature of the various stars as forever denied to us." Auguste Compte 1835.

Auguste Compte was a famous 19th French philosopher and the first sociologist. The above quote was quickly and comprehensively proved wrong. Within 20 years of him making this statement Gustav Kirchhoff and Robert Bunsen had managed to link spectral absorption lines in the Sun with emission lines of know chemicals marking the beginning of the science of astronomical spectroscopy which is the mainstay of optical astronomy today.

Rosetta is no exception here, carrying three instruments on the orbiter capable of performing spectroscopy on 67P's nucleus, coma and tails. The lowest frequency spectroscopy is carried out by the MIRO instrument that measures radiation in the microwave range. MIRO needs a signal processing computer to perform the same function as a diffraction grid, separating the messy signal into a collection discreet waveforms of different frequencies ( through inverse Fourier transforms ). VIRITIS covers the visible and infrared parts of the spectrum and ALICE covers the ultraviolet. These instruments can detect the presence of a wide range of different substances, including their isotopes, through their distinct spectrographic fingerprints ( emmision or absorbtion lines ).

[link to edu-observatory.org]

In addition each instrument can also measure the power at each emission frequency, meaning these instruments are actually spectroradiometers. So as well as deducing the chemical composition of what they are looking at, they can also measure its temperature by relating the frequency/power distribution to black body radiation curves.

[link to scienceblogs.com]

Yesterday we had a tantalising snipit of news from the ALICE instrument team. "From the data, the Alice team discovered the comet is unusually dark -- darker than charcoal-black -- when viewed in ultraviolet wavelengths"
[link to www.jpl.nasa.gov]

So a chance to show the comet of doom again.

[link to i.imgur.com]

"Alice is also already detecting both hydrogen and oxygen in the comet’s coma, or atmosphere" I guess the implication here is that they picking up the products of photodiscocaition.

“We’re a bit surprised at just how unreflective the comet’s surface is and how little evidence of exposed water-ice it shows,” says Dr. Alan Stern"

Far UV is a good waveband to go looking for ice in, it has a strong absorption line at 170nm. At 100km from the comet, as Rosetta was last month, ALICE has an resolution of about 100m x 8m so however the ice is contained in the nucleus, its not in huge clean icy glaciers on the surface.



[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

[link to blogs.esa.int]

I'm hoping we are going to get a lot more interesting revelations on Monday when an number of senior Rosetta scientists ( including Matt Taylor ) will be presenting at ESPC in Portugal.

[link to www.europlanet-eu.org]

K

Last Edited by K Hall on 09/06/2014 11:25 AM
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
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Will the venting not complicate the landing even further?
K Hall (OP)

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Will the venting not complicate the landing even further?
 Quoting: KipKat


Yes I think so. As 67P approaches the Sun it gets more and more active so the mid November landing date is a compromise between landing as soon as they have enough available information and landing when the comet is most active.

Rosetta itself is going to get into an orbit where its huge solar arrays are not going to act like sails, disrupting the orbit's stability.

K
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
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From data collected over the last month, the Alice team discovered that the comet is unusually dark in the ultraviolet and that the comet’s surface – so far – shows no large water-ice patches. Alice is also already detecting both hydrogen and oxygen in the comet’s coma, or atmosphere.

We’re a bit surprised at just how unreflective the comet’s surface is and how little evidence of exposed water-ice it shows,” says Dr. Alan Stern, Alice principal investigator and an associate vice president of the SwRI Space Science and Engineering Division.


This is exactly what EU predicts!

It just doesn't bother you that traditional models are so far wide of the mark?

Where is all the water? I know, I know it must now be buried under all that dark rock.

There are none so blind.....
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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
The Rosetta Mission Predictions

By David Talbott and Wallace Thornhill

After a 10-year journey, Rosetta spacecraft has now reached Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko. It looks like the mission is going to be a goldmine for us.

Already one self evident prediction of the electric comet model has been confirmed: a spectacular, sharply ‘spark machined’ surface—just the opposite of what the “sublimating ices” model of comets would predict and a refutation of all published artistic visualizations of the comet prior to Rosetta’s arrival.

As most of our readers will know, the double-lobed form of the nucleus, similar to the observed forms of so many comets and asteroids, is no surprise to electrical theorists. Standard theory, on the other hand, must call upon repeated astronomical improbabilities (merging of two tiny and remote bodies in space) to explain these recurrent morphologies. If such improbabilities are common in a gravitational scenario, why no triple-lobed comets or asteroids?

While no electrical theorist would deny the possibility that a chunk of dirty ice could still be circling the Sun today, none expects substantial water-ice either on or below the surface of 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko. More likely would be a possible localized dusting of frost as trivial levels of ice crystals, created electrochemically in the coma, drift to the surface.

Significant things to look for as the Rosetta mission continues:

No evidence of subsurface ice at the sources of the jets;
Virtually no interstellar dust, the second component of the “dirty snowball” theory;
Discovery of minerals on the nucleus that are typical of planetary surfaces within the
Habitable zone of the Sun; characteristic concentration of plasma jet activity eating away at the cliffs of elevated terrain and the margins of well-defined depressions;
Measurable retreat of active cliff regions in the wake of this activity; and
The presence of unexpected electric fields within the coma and/or close to the comet nucleus, possibly even disrupting the anticipated landing on the surface. This could occur on or after touch down because the sharp metallic edges of the spacecraft make an ideal focus for a diffuse plasma discharge, which would disrupt communications and possibly interfere with spacecraft electronics.

And, if a strong coronal mass ejection from the Sun strikes the comet, we expect the comet to respond electrically with a surge of activity, confirming that the jets are not due to warming from the Sun but to charged particle distribution in the electric field of the Sun.

If you’re wondering about the electrical theory, facts, and reasoning behind these expectations, it’s time to watch The Electric Comet documentary, along with the accompanying video on reported infrared readings of “water” from the Deep Impact event at Comet Tempel 1.
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From data collected over the last month, the Alice team discovered that the comet is unusually dark in the ultraviolet and that the comet’s surface – so far – shows no large water-ice patches. Alice is also already detecting both hydrogen and oxygen in the comet’s coma, or atmosphere.

We’re a bit surprised at just how unreflective the comet’s surface is and how little evidence of exposed water-ice it shows,” says Dr. Alan Stern, Alice principal investigator and an associate vice president of the SwRI Space Science and Engineering Division.


This is exactly what EU predicts!

It just doesn't bother you that traditional models are so far wide of the mark?

Where is all the water? I know, I know it must now be buried under all that dark rock.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54865480


It's dusty, naturally. This isn't terribly surprising. It's not expected to be a snowball in space with tons of exposed ice. Tempel 1 might have had a little more exposed ice, but guess what... the outgassing has started from the colder smoother neck area, exactly what the traditional model expects!

"The deep "gorge" has been measured to be colder than the rest of the comet, suggesting ices may lurk closer to the surface than in other regions so far observed by Rosetta's instruments."
[link to www.bbc.com]

And sure enough, that's where we're seeing the first signs of significant outgassing occur, woohoo!
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We’re a bit surprised at just how unreflective the comet’s surface is and how little evidence of exposed water-ice it shows,” says Dr. Alan Stern, Alice principal investigator and an associate vice president of the SwRI Space Science and Engineering Division.

This is exactly what EU predicts!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54865480


Well I have written here before about what electric comet predicts and what has been found. You can read it all again here in the following three posts.

Thread: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts (Page 7)

But briefly electric comet predicts that 67P will be a hot, dust free, ice free, dense rocky, electrically charged body. Whereas, so far ( and it is very early days ) we know it is:

Cold

[link to blogs.esa.int]

Dusty

[link to blogs.esa.int]

Outgassing water

[link to blogs.esa.int]

With a colder neck region that looks very productive here

[link to www.raumfahrer.net (secure)]

With a low density.

Thread: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts (Page 9)

And if its anything like 21P, not electric.

[link to adsabs.harvard.edu]

It just doesn't bother you that traditional models are so far wide of the mark?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54865480


I am surprised Whipple's model is such a good match to observations, considering he had so little to go on 65 years ago.

Why do you cling to your electric comet idea when it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Where is the dense rock ? Where is the electric charge ? Why is there dust ? Why is it so cold ? Why is it releasing water ? Where are the electric arcs ? Why hasn't Rosetta been destroyed by electric discharge ?

You see when you do science you accumulate knowledge that has been proven through empirical means. You drop ideas that have been disproved and so we move forward. Time to let go of electric comet.

I would be interested to hear what you think about electric comet choosing not to predict electricity.

Thread: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts (Page 9)

K

Last Edited by K Hall on 09/06/2014 02:46 PM
"Not until the empirical resources are exhausted, need we pass on to the dreamy realms of speculation.” Edwin Hubble
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We’re a bit surprised at just how unreflective the comet’s surface is and how little evidence of exposed water-ice it shows,” says Dr. Alan Stern, Alice principal investigator and an associate vice president of the SwRI Space Science and Engineering Division.

This is exactly what EU predicts!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54865480


Well I have written here before about what electric comet predicts and what has been found. You can read it all again here in the following three posts.

Thread: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts (Page 7)

But briefly electric comet predicts that 67P will be a hot, dust free, ice free, dense rocky, electrically charged body. Whereas, so far ( and it is very early days ) we know it is:

Cold

[link to blogs.esa.int]

Dusty

[link to blogs.esa.int]

Outgassing water

[link to blogs.esa.int]

With a colder neck region that looks very productive here

[link to www.raumfahrer.net (secure)]

With a low density.

Thread: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts (Page 9)

And if its anything like 21P, not electric.

[link to adsabs.harvard.edu]

It just doesn't bother you that traditional models are so far wide of the mark?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54865480


I am surprised Whipple's model is such a good match to observations, considering he had so little to go on 75 years ago.

Why do you cling to your electric comet idea when it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Where is the dense rock ? Where is the electric charge ? Why is there dust ? Why is it so cold ? Why is it releasing water ? Where are the electric arcs ? Why hasn't Rosetta been destroyed by electric discharge ?

You see when you do science you accumulate knowledge that has been proved through empirical means. You drop ideas that have been disproved and so we move forward. Time to let go of electric comet.

I would be interested to hear what you think about electric comet choosing not to predict electricity.

Thread: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts (Page 9)

K
 Quoting: K Hall


THIS.
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Re: Rosetta Comet Orbiter ** Landing site selection Video 0.4g cm-3 ** Smell the comet !** Fun with Jets ** Rosetta gets great mileage ** 174 Tvolts
I am surprised Whipple's model is such a good match to observations, considering he had so little to go on 75 years ago.

I see, so even though the latest, most accurate measurements find essentially a lump of rock blacker than coal, with no detectable water-Ice and no observable vents, you think he had a good match?

OK, like I said, none so blind......

The Whipple model has failed it's first primary test under direct observation. The EU model primary predictions have been confirmed under direct observation. Yet you won't even have the intellectual honesty to admit this.

I will watch this thread with interest over the coming months as each one of the Whipple sacred cow's gets led to the slaughter.

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We're dropping truth bombs like it's the end of days!